The other day my wife’s cousin and I were talking about another relative’s son who will be graduating from a five year apprentice electrical trade school this coming year. My daughter jumped into the conversation and asked what a journeyman was. My wife’s cousin answered her; in which I then asked the question what is the difference between a Journyman carpenter and a Master Carpenter? He thought it had something to do with being a shop steward. I am not sure that is correct or not so I now present it to you experts out there. What is the difference between a Journeyman carpenter and a Master carpenter and how does one gain that recognition?
Is there such a thing as a Master electrican???
Thanks…Hope everyone had a great Christmas and I wish everyone a very safe and prosperous New Year!! I have really appreciated all the support from each and everyone of you this past year.
Cheers,
Stan
“Projects beget projects and projects beget the need to buy new tools and that is what the cycle of life is all about.”
Replies
what is the difference between a Journyman carpenter and a Master Carpenter?
Unfortunately, there is no longer such a trajectory toward mastery recognized in the US for carpenters. Remnants of the Medieval system of training and practice are found in the electrical, plumbing and pipefitting trades which still employ apprentices, journeymen and masters.
In the old world, a young apprentice would typically live with a master for up to seven years, doing whatever was asked in return for room and board. After finishing the apprenticeship, he would become a journeyman (from the French journeé - meaning the period of a day), which gave him the right to charge a fee for a day's work. He typically travelled for a period of years, working at different shops with different masters to perfect his craft.
When he was deemed ready by the Guild of Master Craftsmen, he could be tested and have his "masterpiece" evaluated for quality. If he passed, he was allowed into the Guild as a master, after which he could open his own shop or be the lead craftsman in another's shop.
In today's America, anybody can hang out a shingle, with or without training, and call himself a carpenter (basically a journeyman). Other than some vocational training programs, or informal work as a carpenter's helper, there is no apprencticeship program for carpenters. And, except for some state licensure requirements (which mostly have to do with building code knowledge), there is nothing that even remotely certifies a carpenter as a master.
The lack of such a training and recognition program is evident in the general dirth of quality in carpentry work and the widespread lack of knowledge of the theory as well as higher levels of practice (or craftmanship) in the building trades.
Building, or general carpentry, has become a trade rather than a craft. And the entire society suffers because of it.
I consider a Master Builder to be one who has a broad grasp of building science, who can design a beautiful and practical home, and who can accomplish with a high level of skill all the tasks involved in building a house from foundation to roof and from inside to out.
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
I agree. I think for the sake of production of less expensive homes the trades were degraded.
We have more homes but they are built in general with less integrity.
Now if they could just build homes oversees and plop them into place here they could take lazy us carpenters out of the loop. ;^)
Edited 12/30/2008 11:09 am ET by popawheelie
Thank you. Well explained.
Something I've thought about many times but never really questioned anyone about it....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Very well explained. Have you read Pillars of the Earth, and World without End by Ken Follet? Fantastic read, and deals with medieval tradesmen, the guilds and building cathedrals.
I'm just finishing Pillars now.
But don't take that for gospel. Follet did a lot of research but he was not there, and the system functioned somewhat differently in different parts of Europe, different trades, and different centuries.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I do not agree. My trade school also offers an apprenticeship for carpenters. When I am done with the school, and have filled out the appropriate cards for the 4000 hours on the job training, I become a journeyman electrician. Our school is backed by the state of Tennessee, and they put a nice stamp on my journeymans card for me. I do not know it to be fact, but I assume the the carpenter's apprenticeship is the same way. I was told the criteria for Master Electrician at the start of school several years ago, but I can't remember exactly what it takes. I know you need to be a registered journeyman, have so many documented years in the field (ten I think), you must be licensed by the state, and now that I just got distracted, I can't remember what else (wait, I think that you take a test, but only if you meet the above criteria). Now, I'm not 100% on this, like I said, its been several years since someone explained it to me, but I at least think that I'm in the ballpark.
"I do not agree..... I do not know it to be fact, but I assume the the carpenter's apprenticeship is the same way."LOL, you are dis-agreeing with River basedd only on what you ASSUME?This oughta be good!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I assume you should have been a plumber because you like to stir sh!t. From what I'm hearing from the other posters, I don't assume that I was that far off.
The United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America has a five year apprenticeship program which requires each apprentice to attend classes given by the union on work day evenings, three or more times per week for the full five years.
After successfully completing the five year apprenticeship the apprentice becomes a journeyman. There is no higher disignation for a member of the UBC&JofA than journeyman.
A shop steward is a union representative on the job site. He/she works with his/her tools, the same hours as the other carpenters, unless it's a very large job. His/her main duty as a steward is to make certain that the terms of the contract between the union and the contractor are followed and that all safety measures are implimented.
One of the great ironies, related to this discussion, is that the designations "Architect" and "Engineer" both originally referred to Master Carpenters. Architects were the Arch-Tektons or Chief Builder/Carpenter and Engineers were originally the elite carpenters of their day (the term refers to the foremen of catapult carpenters--the most demanding wood construction in history).Too bad that both fields have so few with the skills, experience, and common sense of even a Journeyman Carpenter.
"Engineers" were the builders of "war engines". They had to have a command of mathematics and physics in order to build the devices. The term "civil engineer" was invented to distinguish non-military engineers from military engineers. Other specialties then sprouted off of civil engineering.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
The catapult was the primary "war engine" that required the skill and knowledge of an engineer when the term was coined. The engineers were the brightest and most skilled of the carpenters that built such devices.
Architects were the Arch-Tektons or Chief Builder/Carpenter
Too bad that both fields have so few with the skills, experience, and common sense of even a Journeyman Carpenter.
Likewise, it's a shame that so few carpenters have any working knowledge of design or building science.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
--"Likewise, it's a shame that so few carpenters have any working knowledge of design or building science."True enough, my point is that both Architects and Engineers are bestowed titles implying master carpenter status (in the original usage). Those professions have lost touch with their very foundations and would certainly benefit as much from a carpentry apprenticeship as carpenters would from design, science and mathematics courses.I'm a carpenter who has a B.S. in Natural Resource Conservation, not building science or design specifically, though of some help in comprehending them.
Those professions have lost touch with their very foundations and would certainly benefit as much from a carpentry apprenticeship as carpenters would from design, science and mathematics courses.
Which was the reason for the YesterMorrow Design/Build School in VT where I teach. It was founded some 28 years ago by architects who liked to build and who believed that designers should now something about building and builders should know something about design.
So I'm a builder who teaches architects and engineers, as well as carpenters and owner-builders, something about building science and "tricks of the trade".
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
YesterMorrow sounds like it has a good recipe for a school.You might like the tip I have in the current issue of FHB, it is a walkway for building sites that uses repurposed materials in a novel way:http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/tips/roll-up-boardwalk.aspx?ac=ts&ra=fp
Great use of old firehose. I keep a bunch of it around for odd uses as well.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Actually, the term Engineer, is derived from the Latin ingeniator, meaning one with ingenium, the ingenious one. The name, used for builders of ingenious fortifications or makers of ingenious devices, was closely related to the notion of ingenuity, which was captured in the old meaning of “engine” until the word was taken over by steam engines and its like.
The first roman ingenitors, designed/built the structures, roads, water and sewerage systems, and machines required by the legions, as they conquered the world, (in many instances the actual skilled work now done by tradesmen, were performed by skilled slaves).
You are right that those early engineers were highly skilled craftsman. And, in that far too many of the current generation of engineers and architects have any real exposure to the skilled trades.
Edited 1/2/2009 8:06 pm ET by Jigs-n-fixtures
you sure it's not derived from engynour, the guys who oversaw the construction of catapaults & other destructive devices of the times?...just read about it in the Splintered History of Wood, which took a serious thumping as engines of war...http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
Fairly certain:
The English term Engineer is derived from "Engynour", a Middle French term for a builder of machines or engines from around the 12th or 13th century. "Engynour" was derived from the Late Latin "Ingeniare". Which in turn derived from the Middle Latin "Ingeniator".
Jeeze, I hate to be Riversongish, but okay, you must be right! Sure,LOL In the early 1300s the word was engynour `builder of military engines' (machines used in warfare). It was borrowed from Old French engigneor, from enginier `to contrive, build,' from engin `skill, cleverness.' Engin came from Latin ingenium `inborn qualities, talent,' which was formed from in- `in' and gen-, root of gignere `to beget, produce.'I have a son in an areospace engineering program, he'd be the first to acknowledge that inborn quality thing <G>and to quote Martin Mull: "those French, they have a word for everything..."http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
Yeah....we got into that this year when my students built a trebuchet to compete against the engineering students from the university beside us.....did a pumpkin toss to raise money for our student food banks and a local wildlife park. Our machine was 14' wide, 14' long, and had over 1000 lbs in the counterweight when we ran out of steel.....timberframed it out of 4 x 4 and 6 x 6 hemlock. We threw a 15 lb pumpkin almost 400', and were getting longer throws when dark came down. We won both the accuracy and distance awards. My partner is an engineer (as well as a certifed carpenter and cabinetmaker).......fun to make a machine.
I do know about the pumpking chunkin' competitions , and the recordholders, all that....400' is a starting piint for us. Next year we get serious.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Shucks, all we got to build in school was concrete canoes.
It was really cool. I was standing downfield for part of it, and had to run a couple of times.....it's something to see a big pumpkin whistling down at top speed in the dusk, and realise it's headed right at ya.
Both years of students worked hard at it; lots of research and basic engineering, problem solving, using the tools, figuring out how to do the joinery in wet hemlock efficiently and factoring moisture content and drying, figuring out how to rig the blocks and tackle etc so we could load it with a thousand pounds of counterweight .....I'm very proud of them. Lots of teamwork. Our welding, metal fabrication, and machining programs helped out . On competition day, we were all there in matching hoodies with logos, and hardhats....a team of tradesmen. The guy from the park came by our machine....said "How much weight do you have in there?"....well, we had been weighing every load of steel scrap, so we could say "842.5 pounds at this point." (or whatever it was). He went to the engineers....."Well...a lot. And a couple of big rocks." To be fair, they did the best they could without a lot of support from their school, and they were all good folks including their instructor Paul. We had lots of support; even had a 'catapult naming contest'.......we named it 'Chuck'.
The local paper still has some video up about it..... http://www.capebretonpost.com/index.cfm?main=broadcast&bcid=9425
That's my partner Philip being interviewed. At that point, we were only shooting around 200-225'.....later on we figured some things out, as I said we finished at about 400'. Next year we'll be dangerous.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
your partner??
Yeah, there are two of us teaching full time in my program, Philip and me...that kind of partner. I'm in the yellow hardhat in the video, in the background.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
A Journeyman has gained the experience to train an apprentice in a particular skill.
Today, Carpentry is an extremely diversified trade. Master is either a designation given by one's Peers or an advertising ploy.
I attended the union apprenticeship program when I was young. School was all day on Saturdays. Everyone was union members except for me. I was the only one working, a scab! How you can become a Journeyman without working on a site is beyond me.
Years later I started teaching carpentry at a vocational school. To get a teaching certificate I had to prove I was a Journeyman. The requirements were 5 yrs. full time continuous employment in the trade. It also required taking specific college courses to maintain the certificate.
There isn't any such thing as a Master Carpenter. Only other carpenters can give you that title of respect. There are designations for Master plumber and electrician. It's gained by passing a written test. You have to be a Master electrician or plumber to pull electrical or plumbing permits in my area. Anyone can get a building permit.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
but then there's Master Carpenter Norm Abram.
So maybe it has something to do with plaid flannel.
Nah, it's the accent. Gotta learn how to say "drawering".
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
I'm gonna get me one of them shirts. And wear my tool bag in the cabinet shop, too.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Yeah, they actually discussed and chose that title for Norm, knowing full well that it meant nothing, but sounded impressive.That's OK, though, that's TV all the way!AitchKay
I figgered a Master Electrician was Norm Abrams with a wire stripper!
I would be mad at Norm but one can tell hes a humble sort of fellow and when he tawks he knows his stuff.
Yeah, how can you be mad at the guy? He just happened to get a really nice job! And he's pretty good at it -- at least now -- he didn't used to know about wood movement, for instance, but he learned, and now he allows for it.AitchKay
Yeah, I was going to say, what about ole' Norm, heh, heh!
There is/were a few good things to the apprentice/journeyman/master progression in trades and teaching. But they are now pretty much offset by less desirable things. I spent some time in a welding/fabrication shop with a guy who fled Germany at the beginning of WWII. He had spent a lengthy time as an apprentice and he said the first portion consisted of sweeping up.
When I worked with him he could layout cuts and bends using welders chalk to fabricate a specific sized cone from flat sheet SS and not even blink. Took many, many years that could have been alot shorter.
The certificate required to teach is something the educational union uses to limit or restrict who could teach--union only. The educational union is still one of the last unions with any clout around. Probably going the way of the UAW--do you know 2K of a new car price goes to union obligations? I emailed a couple of senators that my team could step into that highly automated job easily--for less than $70 bucks/hr.
Before becoming a GC I was a cop in a small town that was building a new high school--non union of course. Union members building nearby nuclear plant went on strike and decided to interfere with the school. Forgot how many we jailed but remember having to guard the work site. Master Freedom Fighter--Tyr
Things are not always what they seem; the first appearance deceives many; the intelligence of a few perceives what has been carefully hidden.... Roman Poet Phaedrus 15BC–50AD
Riversong answered the first part of your question (and very well)
as to Master Electrician there is a differentiation between the two. after a formal apprenticeship and passing the state test Journeyman status is attained. Master electrician requires another test and is needed to contract electrical work (At least that is as I understand it under Michigan Law)
Yeah, as I remember it; unless you're the homeowner, most states require a Master in the shop with a license to pull permits. A Master electrician the way I was told has to know the practice, theory and codes for everything from a doorbell to a power plant. Residential wiring gets boring pretty fast and even though I only got $1.85/hr as an apprentice, they make good $. Don't know about plumbers, but always assumed a similar setup. In D.C. anybody could get around the license requirement by saying they were an agent for the homeowner. Pretty stupid. People ask me to do electrical frequently, but if it's more than a little bit as part of a bigger job I tell them to get an electrician. I have a healthy respect for the danger, the license system and the law. Besides the shock danger, the biggest cause of house fires is bad electric. Then theirs the wild s### like a guy using a post hole digger to set a post hits the trunk line; tool destroyed and turned into a rocket.
Edited 12/30/2008 12:08 pm ET by habilis
> the biggest cause of house fires is bad electricI doubt that. You've got smoking in bed, overloaded extensions, candle fires, space heaters, poorly-installed wood stoves, et al. I'm guessing that malfunctions of the house's imbedded electrical system fall fairly far down the list.(And then consider the many houses where, on inspection of the electrical system, you're amazed that the house HASN'T burned down yet.)
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
I stand corrected. Teach me, again to blindly accept what I've been told. A quick scan of google links shows discrepansies of the major cause. Smoking generally leads the lists, with extension cords, appliances, wiring, cooking and heating equipment following in varying orders. Now if you were to add the #'s for wiring, extension cords and appliances, electric would top the list. But, that was not quite what I was implying. Almost 30 yrs of cloudy assumption cleared up. 1 down - umpteen to go.Makes me shudder to think of those amazing houses.
Edited 12/30/2008 2:52 pm ET by habilis
Yeah, it's hard to find any good stats. I spent 15 minutes searching the NFPA site and they didn't have anything in the free area (and didn't really promise much if you paid for it). Seems to me like this would be one of the main stats that would be front and center -- what actually causes fires.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
A quick scan of google links shows discrepansies of the major cause. Smoking generally leads the lists, with extension cords, appliances, wiring, cooking and heating equipment following in varying orders.
Apologies for prolonging the hi-jack....
But comprehensive national FEMA fire data shows that the leading cause of residential fires - by far - is cooking (32%), with heating in second place at 10% and electrical down at 6.3%. Smoking, by the way, is 1.9% (but causes 11.2% of the fatalities).
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Glad you found some stats. As you found, you'll get different stats depending on whether you count all fires, fires over a certain dollar damage, or fatal fires.Also, of course, "electrical" is apt to include overloaded extensions and other causes not related to structure wiring.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
I went through the union apprentice program. I had been in the trade bout 9 years and was running work for a builder when he went union.
I went all four years, but we were offered the option to test out. Every year consisted of going to school for two weeks at a time and getting 1000 hours of on the job training per year. Both parts were required to advance to the next year. Always a test at the end of the school part.
Was awarded my journeyman card after all was complete.
There is no mention of master level in the UBC, journey is as high as it gets.
I have met a few that I would consider masters, but I think it is a market tool myself.October 17th, 2009
Jeremy and Lisa
Was there ever any doubt?
I want to know where you got this information. They've pounded into my brain the dangers of electricity and claimed that they were the number one cause of house fires. I've got no reason not to believe them. In fact, this Christmas, every residential fire that happened in my area that was reported was said to be started by the electrical system. I'm not saying that your wrong, I just want to see for myself.
I didn't save the link, but it was an official FEMA report.
From US Fire Administration, FEMA, Homeland Security:
http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/downloads/pdf/tfrs/v8i2.pdf
Fire Rates Attributed to Residential Electrical Building Fires
Based on the latest available data for 2003 to 2005, an estimated 28,300 residential building electrical fires occur annually and cause 360 deaths, 1,000 injuries, and losses of $995 million. Electrical fires accounted for 7% of all residential building fires in this 3-year period.
Electrical fires in residential buildings result in more damage and higher death rates per 1,000 fires on average than nonelectrical residential fires.
Here's a bar graph from the same source:
http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/statistics/national/residential/loss_fire.shtm
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Well, then I may have mispoke. I stand corrected.
I was in the Union for years as a Journeyman carpenter.
Theres no such Title as a master.
But one would be called out sometimes for different jobs.
I was good at trim and went out job after job as a finish carpenter .
However on Bridge jobs or pilebuckin i was a good helper;].
Theres so many different aspects i have no idea how any one person could even learn them all.
"
Theres so many different aspects i have no idea how any one person could even learn them all."
Thats so true . They cant . Im still learning .
Edit ; Ive read the thread now and it keeps comming back to union standards. Thats fine but doesnt fully discuss it . The masters I grew up working under are pretty much all gone in my mind. They did it all . They were there with a transit digging a footing and finished building cabinets and door units from scratch. Everytyhing between . Everything except mechanical and some did some of that.
Through time that method became obsolete . Back then a couple carpenters would build a house from the ground up over and over again. Now then those skills falls on remodeling carpenters which have more skills . Often many more skills . Those types that are masters truly do it all. All of it . No subs except to be legal . But they can do it all.
Tim
Edited 1/1/2009 4:29 pm by Mooney
Then theres another discussion following that one .
Doing it all is one thing. Being able to make a living doing each thing is another . Weve had this discussion for several years. Can this guy or gal put on a roof this week and build cabinets the next week and turn off the work fast enough to make a living doing it while doing all pleasing work. Those are masters.
Tim
<Doing it all is one thing. Being able to make a living doing each thing is another . Weve had this discussion for several years. Can this guy or gal put on a roof this week and build cabinets the next week and turn off the work fast enough to make a living doing it while doing all pleasing work. Those are masters.>My understanding is that in the European carpentry guild system, it took someone who could do it all, including running a successful business with employees, to earn master carpenter status...here, we just have slackers like Stan Foster, ha, ha, ha...http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
Of course even in the old guild system you had carpenters, stone masons, metalworkers, etc, all in separate guilds -- there were few if any "do-it-alls".
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
-- there were few if any "do-it-alls".
Actually, travelling journeymen were sometimes called Jacks or Knaves. From this came the expression "jack of all trades".
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
I think a master carpenter did do it all, course HVAC, plumbing and 'lectric were a lot easier then.http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
I gave up a lot of different tasks, I could put on a hot tar roof one week, Trim a house the next, frame a house the next month etc. But lets say i did concrete flatwork, Now they use patterns i did not keep up, im out. Could i build cabinets, Yes, Could i build good cabinets outside on horses with a worm drive, No. I did Formica work and was called often but then what could i do with my helpers??. I did formwork but then did not have enough work to warrant buying new forms.. So each task the guys that just did that kept getting better and better while i did not keep up. On the other hand for a long time there was not much work and i made it by being able to do many things in a rural area
"On the other hand for a long time there was not much work and i made it by being able to do many things in a rural area"
Im my experience , thats where masters are made if you choose to use such a term.
"Theres so many different aspects i have no idea how any one person could even learn them all."
Thats so true . They cant .
"They"? Those who believe they can't, can't. And certainly most carpenters simple don't have the aptitude or skills or knowledge to be a master.
The masters I grew up working under are pretty much all gone in my mind. They did it all . They were there with a transit digging a footing and finished building cabinets and door units from scratch. Everytyhing between . Everything except mechanical and some did some of that. Those types that are masters truly do it all. All of it . No subs except to be legal .
Through time that method became obsolete .
It's not so much a "method" as a mindset. With carpenters (and everyone else) so focussed on making money and going home to spend it, there's not going to be much incentive for broad mastery of a craft or trade. Specialization probably has a better return on investment.
But I build houses from design to site work to foundation to framing to roofing to doors & windows, trim, siding & paint, to insulation, drywall, int trim, cabinets, flooring, tile, & paint, to chimney, to electrical, plumbing, heating and ventilation.
A high level of mastery in all those is both possible and satisfying. But few will take the time to learn and develop the range of skills necessary. And that speaks a sad tale about our trade.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
"Theres so many different aspects i have no idea how any one person could even learn them all."
Thats so true . They cant .
"They"? Those who believe they can't, can't. And certainly most carpenters simple don't have the aptitude or skills or knowledge to be a master."
Well hold on a minute .
Just like Jerry was saying , its getting advanced which makes the learning obsolete. Not much need to teach it or require it .
Drywall is a carpentry trade as well as painting . Its called on for the carpenter to in certain areas. We were talking about all aspects like that as well as granite , etc. All types of mill work as well. We could require a carpenter make raised panel doors on site and circle stairs after he crawled out of the footing pouring concrete. Thats the types of things we are talking about . Learning it all on the present curve to day isnt possible . Not being a master capenter within reason.
Remodel capenters do such things but not all at adavanced scale. I like to use the word "practice " the trades . Theres some prety select company here at different things . Id say its impossible to be all they are in one guy for the opportunity and years living it would take not to speak of pure skill they hold.
Tim
I am one who does it all too, for several reasons. One is so I don't get bored doing same old same old... I like learning new.
Another reason is because I live is small places where skilled subs are not always available.
But I suspect part of Mooney's comment is based on simple economics. I roofed for twenty years, and there is no way a carp could or can keep up with a roofer in shape for the work from doing it every day. I only do a fourth of the rate now I could do back then.Same with other skills. I can do a high level skim coat on sheet rock finishing. but there is no way I can do it more than 60% as fast as the subs I use when the job is big enough to get them out here.Same again with electrical or plumbing.and the crete guys can have the forms up and tied and braced while i'm still thinking about it, figuratively speaking.So from an economic POV, it does the customer a disservice sometimes to try doing it all yourself. But being ABLE to can keep the job flowing, and having the knowledge of each craft means you are better able to supervise the men doing it, and to co-ordinate the project.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I can do a high level skim coat on sheet rock finishing. but there is no way I can do it more than 60% as fast as the subs I use when the job is big enough to get them out here.
And the operative phrase is "when the job is big enough to get them out here"
Same again with electrical or plumbing.
I've never seen an electician or plumber working fast. Those are two trades that I can easily match speed with. And they charge a lot more per hour than I do, and they almost never show up when I need them, disrupting the flow of work and extending the timeline (and cost) of the job.
and the crete guys can have the forms up and tied and braced while i'm still thinking about it, figuratively speaking.
I don't do any large-scale formwork, though I've formed all my smaller projects. And, if the slab is the finish floor, I have the flatwork guys come in with their laser level power screeds and power trowels to make it purty.
So from an economic POV, it does the customer a disservice sometimes to try doing it all yourself. But being ABLE to can keep the job flowing, and having the knowledge of each craft means you are better able to supervise the men doing it, and to co-ordinate the project.
For big contractors with multiple jobs going at once, so that they can move their carpentry crew elsewhere while waiting for subs and inspections - that may be the case.
But for the builder, like me, who will never do more than one job at a time, I have much more control over the work schedule if I and my crew do most of the work ourselves.
I use mechanical subs where AHJ requires or when the homeowner insists. And I have to be dependent on the schedule of the excavator, well-driller, and septic engineer/installer, which is often enough to throw off the start of a large project, but I guess I'm a control freak - I like to have some control over the flow of the job.
And, ultimately, I'm often able to do the work for less money than by hiring subs.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 1/2/2009 2:06 pm ET by Riversong
"I guess I'm a control freak"Gee, I hadn't noticed...;)
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aren't you geeeeettttttiiiiing sleeeeepy?http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
you must be hiring the wrong electricians because I KNOW you can't keep up with me.
>>>>I've never seen an electician or plumber working fast. Those are two trades that I can easily match speed with. And they charge a lot more per hour than I do, and they almost never show up when I need them, disrupting the flow of work and extending the timeline (and cost) of the job.<<<<.Most every job i was ever on was union or my own and professional, Most every sparky or plumber was working as hard as me. I wired my own house and plumbed it with copper, I have my own tools for such work but could not match the speed of any good journeyman. They charge more then you do but your better and faster then them???. When you need them??? .. They dont show up when you need them but as a builder you always hire them?? I take it your hiring them so there your subs, So your a builder but hire lazy subs???. Your the builder but make less then lazy subs that dont show up???
You are obviously way more talented than the rabble that populate this site, but please come down from your perch, and realize that most of us are just trying to make a living at something we at times enjoy, sometimes get a real kick out of , and if it's a good day, create something we're really proud of.
Apologies for going off topic.
Edited 1/2/2009 8:57 pm ET by bruce22
Well Stan, That is a good question. I will try to answer it from a Journeyman Carpenter's point of view. I belong to local 200 of the Ohio and Vicinity Regional Council of Carpenters. In our trade there is an apprenticeship that is a 4 year program. From there you graduate to become a Journeyman Carpenter. We have no Master Carpenter classification. We do have lead Carpenters that have the added responsibility of running work or a particular job. We also have Stewards of which I am one. Stewards are the eyes and ears of the Union. A stewards responsibilities are to settle manners and disputes before they become a grievance, be aware of safety issues, and keep track of time on the job especially on "Target" Projects where the playing field is equaled so that a Union Contractor can be competitive in bidding against a non union outfit.
I believe the term Master Carpenter would apply to someone highly skilled in the trade which would not necessarily belong to a union. I do know there are very highly skilled people both Union and non union that could both be considered in the "Master" Category; however, Our Union does not recognize or utilize the term "Master".
Happy New Year,
Frank Maglin
(A Journeyman Carpenter)
I believe the term Master Carpenter would apply to someone highly skilled in the trade which would not necessarily belong to a union...
The term, unfortunately, is not used in the US as it is in Germany. Where the level of Master Carpenter is recognized, it is - just as in the electrical and plumbing trades in the US - required in order to train apprentices or employ (or supervise) journeymen.
It's probably been dropped in the American unions because it would raise the pay scale too high ;-)
By the way, how does a "target project" level the playing field?
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
IIRC, the "journeyman" craftsman would journey from town to town, working for various master carpenters, until he collected enough "credits" (I don't recall how they were accounted) to become a master himself.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
IIRC, the "journeyman" craftsman would journey from town to town
Yes, I mentioned that in post #2.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
By the way, how does a "target project" level the playing field?Usually a non union contractor has an advantage in bidding a job due to the fact that they do not have to pay as high of a wage or benefits to their employees, plus many of them will hire tradesmen and place them on their books as a sub contractor.A target program evens up the playing field by allowing a Union contractor to bid equivalently. Here is how it works. A small amount of money comes out of each members dues and is placed in the Unions Target fund; therefore, a Union contractor can bid competitively with a non union contractor and the difference needed to pay journeymen's wages and benefits comes out of the Target Fund. One of the duties of the job steward is to record all of the carpenter's time on the job and turn the information into the Union office where it can be double checked with the time turned in by the contractor.
I never had to send anything in to the union when I was on a target project.
The Union said they would target, for example, 10K.
We took 10K off our bid and turned it in. If we got the job, and it was substantially complete we could get our target check from the union.
Why would the steward have to turn in anyhting to the union. The target money from journeyman checks get sent directly to the GC from my understanding.October 17th, 2009
Jeremy and Lisa
Was there ever any doubt?
From my understanding, time sent in by the steward was compared to time turned in by the contractor more or less to certify the actual hours worked on the project.
If there was a t/m contract versus fixed price I could see that.
I was curious. ThanksOctober 17th, 2009
Jeremy and Lisa
Was there ever any doubt?
Our company has done several T/M jobs as well as contract jobs. They bid both ways. The job we are finishing up now is a T/M job consisting of exotic wood paneling in a 4 story office building. A great deal of scribing and fitting panels to walls, columns and beams is required. Bidding it as T/M probably benefitted both parties in this situation.
Agree....in Germany, until very recently, journeymen and masters were clearly defined in the wood trades (carpentry and cabinetmaking). You could take two streams (for cabinetmaking anyway)....a 3-4 year stream that would qualify you as a journeyman....often by eighteen years old.
Another stream that would qualify you as a journeyman, then you would continue ,after some experience, and do two years of mostly business training (how to run a business). In cabinetmaking, you would have to do a masterpiece....judged by other masters, to prove you can do it. But mostly business, to qualify you as a 'master of men', able to employ and train other craftsmen. I have known a number of masters; a lot of German masters relocate to Canada.
In Canada, we have a provincial/interprovincial certification system to qualify people as journeymen ....four year minimum qualifiaction period, 8000-12000 hours ( I have one provincial and one interprovincial certification; several other journeymen here at Breaktime). In the cabinetmaking trade, there is talk about instituting formal certification levels (post-journeyman) for lead hands and masters, based on the European system. Haven't heard anything similar for carpentry at this point.
I understand Germany has relaxed the regulations now, and there is quite a bit of criticism of the results.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
When i worked Union the Lead or Foreman got an extra 50 cents an hour, I dont remember anyone wanting the job very much as one was blamed for Everything that went wrong.. Most Foreman i had were friends of the boss and knew less then anyone else, However they soon figured out to listen to the good hands. I cant remember if there were so many carpenters if they had to have a foreman??
Our contract gives an additional.50 per hour to "run work". I too feel the added .50 is not worth all the added responsibility and headaches that come with the territory. I have worked for a few contractors that were as you described; however, I am currently working for a really good outfit where the people running work are the best in their trade. The experience I had with our local is that there is no room for carpenters that do not produce or are not effecient. You are taking your skills and competing with others. Poor skills, bad work habits and inefficiency usually get a person laid off.
Our contract, which is st. louis and vicinity, is 1.25 more for foreman, and another 1.25 for superintendant. So we get 2.50 more and it still wasn't always worth it.
Sometimes it's nice to just put the tools on and do it, makes it easier and quicker, therefore cheaper. Union didn't agree with me on that.
I once got fined for working when I was a super on a job.
October 17th, 2009
Jeremy and Lisa
Was there ever any doubt?
Once upon a time I worked in a shop in New York with a journeyman
cabinetmaker from France. After he had finished his training he had,
according to tradition, packed up his tools (including a bowsaw) and
travelled around France, and then later the world, working here and
there, gathering experience.
I don't know when, if ever, his travels were supposed to end, under the French scheme of things.
The U.S. legal system makes a distinction between a trade mechanic and a trade contractor. A journeyman is a mechanic. Master plumbers, master electricians, etc. are not mechanics. They are contractors.
Suppose your state has a contractor licensing law. All journeymen are excluded from such legislation.
The lien laws in the state where I live are pretty standard. It states that mechanics and materialmen shall have a lien for labor or materials furnished whether furnished at the instance of the property owner or his agent. It then states that all contractors and subcontractors are agents of the property owner. Therefore, plumbing contractors, electrical contractors, carpentry contractors, etc. are labor and material orderers. Their sole function is to obtain the necessities for the job. If the property owner orders the labor and materials for the job, then the property owner is the contractor.
The concept is so simple it eludes people.
I might add that in states or cities that require licenses of journeymen plumbers or journeymen electricians that those who are licensed as plumbing contractors or electrical contractors are forbidden from doing plumbing or electrical work. Only those with the requisite mechanic's (journeymen's) license are authorized to work at the trade. A person who has a contractor's license in those trades is considered skilled only in labor and material ordering.
Since you've entered no personal profile, I'll assume you come from Mars.
The U.S. legal system makes a distinction between a trade mechanic and a trade contractor. A journeyman is a mechanic. Master plumbers, master electricians, etc. are not mechanics. They are contractors.
There is no "US legal system" in regard to trade or professional licensing - it's soley the responsibility of the states, and the requirements cover the entire spectrum from state to state.
Suppose your state has a contractor licensing law. All journeymen are excluded from such legislation.
Massachusetts has long required all builders and remodellers who are contractors or who supervise work for a contractor to be licensed.
If the property owner orders the labor and materials for the job, then the property owner is the contractor.
And a property owner can pull their own permit, regardless of whether they are doing the work themselves or hiring a contractor.
I might add that in states or cities that require licenses of journeymen plumbers or journeymen electricians that those who are licensed as plumbing contractors or electrical contractors are forbidden from doing plumbing or electrical work.
Bullmoose! Everywhere I know if, you need a Master Electrician's or Master Plumber's license or certification to pull a permit and supervise the work of Journeymen, though they can do any work themselves.
Only those with the requisite mechanic's (journeymen's) license are authorized to work at the trade. A person who has a contractor's license in those trades is considered skilled only in labor and material ordering.
I know of no "contractors license" for electricians or plumbers. Only Master licenses.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
"I know of no "contractors license" for electricians or plumbers."Are you trying to ruin your reputation as a know-it-all? LOL5150 has a 'history' of riding his imaginary hobby-horse, galloping in to rescue us all from our commonly held "mis-information" on this subject.He may very well be from Mars
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This thread is spiraling out of control. Every jurisdiction has its own set of rules regarding permits and liscences. Here in Knoxville, a homeowner can pull a permit to do just about anything. My old boss is a liscenced electrician everywhere but Knoxville, he has to get a Master Electrician to pull a permit for him when he works here. Up the road a bit, several counties away, the only inspection done by the county is an electrical inspection, and I believe they are not even required to pull a building permit. Now, I have never built anything in Scott County, but another ol' boss of mine has, and this is what he told me.