Just drywalled and finished a 3 room addition and the homeowner tells me that the trwo junction boxes for the electric must be left exposed asthe inspector told her this. Now I gotta find them. I have never heard of such a stupid thing especially in a kid’s room. What gives on this?
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Replies
thats the scoop...dig em out. It's the LAW.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Spheres right.......or have access to.
Little plastic access door.........or turn 'em into outlets.
I bury 'em all the time, but ya better make sure all your connections are super tight and taped and that no one else knows you did it!!
Good Luck,
Eric
I put all my juction box in the attic just for that reason.
yea... had a customer wanting me to bury boxes the lectrician moved down to backsplash height in a kitchen remodel. I declined so the tile guys covered them with no problem. Well after all was said and done ( couple grand in real fancy tile work) someone ran a screw into the old box hanging some expensive gadget and now none of the outlets work. HO didn't want his new tile job ripped out so he lives with designer extension cords draped over his new granite tops. And an inaccesible box just waiting to make a no pay claim against his homeowners policy.
Like I say to my customers..."think I'm expensive???? hire an amateur"
Re: "I bury 'em all the time ..."
I really, truly hope you are joking. As an electrician I can tell you that there are few worse you can do. making sure the "connections are super tight and taped' won't get it. Given enough time I have never seen a connection that can't fail if loaded the right way. Heavy cyclic loads like hair driers are the worse.
Troubleshooting a situation where there is a buried box or connection is a major PITA as it can be anywhere. I have seen them drywalled over, hidden in false beams and, one of my favorites for sheer stupidity and creativity, filled with mud.
I see one cable on one end and two on the other or a different type of cable I know I have a connection buried. I break out the flat bar and hammer and start digging. An electrician with a flat bar is only second in destructive power to a fireman with an axe. Either can be broadly classified as WMDs.
Keep those connections in boxes and the boxes exposed, not code but you have to be able to find them, and accessible without having to remove anything more than a standard cover painted or papered to match the finish. Decent wall plates are easily available. Blank ceiling plates are more an issue but Arlington makes a textured plastic one that eliminates the screws and looks good. Once painted they virtually disappear.
See:
http://www.aifittings.com/m_11a.htm:
I'm with you all the way.........and you know that in the real world you need to do what you have to do.
Don't go thinking that I'm putting boxes behind drywall everyday. By all the time, I mean when it needs to be done.
My electrician is a top notch second generation man, he explains the situation and the alternatives as well as his druthers. I cal the shot and he makes it all good.
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
Thanks Gents all! I have been rocking since 1985 and this is the first time I have run into this. What's the reasoning for them being accessible..if the connection is good what could happen? You mean to tell me that the connected wires could pull apart by themselves over time.
That wall had wires running thru it like spagetti in a dish...big time patching coming up. OK, so I'll dig them out and have the electrician worry about an access cover or a plate. I'll use a metal stud finder and hopefully it will leave me with only 20 patches!
"You mean to tell me that the connected wires could pull apart by themselves over time."
Uhhh .... Yes.
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Yeah, the wires can and sometimes do loosen up over time. Just the normal expansion and contraction from heating and cooling can loosen them. Then there were the houses that used aluminum wiring in the 70's! Or combinations of aluminum and copper. Yipes!
This, and other code issues are not a question of suggestions or "druthers". Any electrician worth his salt does it right. Period.
If the guy in charge doesn't want to follow code he should walk off the job. Compromising on customer safety in such cases screams hack.
That such a code violation is also against the law in most locations is besides the point.
QUOTE
I'm with you all the way.........and you know that in the real world you need to do what you have to do.
Don't go thinking that I'm putting boxes behind drywall everyday. By all the time, I mean when it needs to be done.
My electrician is a top notch second generation man, he explains the situation and the alternatives as well as his druthers. I cal the shot and he makes it all good.
ENDQUOTE
I'm with the others.
In the real world you do this the right way.
Yeah, there is some stuff that you can let slide, but in my opinion this isn't one of them.
And in my opinion an electrician who lets this slide may be second generation but he learned a bad practice.
2
"It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)
..................."when it needs to be done",
I was wondering , have you ever heard of a house burning
down because of loose water pipes? Why is it that just about
every "rocker" has no problem burying electrical boxes because,
A ) " there was no ring on the box"
B ) " the box was flush with the wall," or
C ) "the box was empty," and last but not least ,
"sparky wasn't here today "
Your electrician tells you the problems and you make the call.
what call??????? this is just a bad practice,
but time is $$$, right
Yeah, I was remodeling a house I owned, previously owned by an electrician. I'm tracing wires and trying to figure out what's what and I see that the wire from the light over the sink has silver insulation, and it's heading toward an outlet. Pull out the box at the outlet and the wire there running toward the light has black insulation. I (stupidly, but luckily didn't get bit) reach as far as I can up into the wall and find the burried box. I cut a hole in the wall (I think I'd turned off all the power by this time) and pull out the box--it has a Mr. Peanut can lid taped to it instead of the cover it's supposed to have screwed on. Quality workmanship!
I also found splices not in boxes in the crawl space, and a switch box, complete with non-functioning switch, used as a juction box.
Qestion for you, as you mentioned "a switch box used as a junction box". I had a switch box on the wall of my kitchen, directly over the stove; the switch used to turn on the power to one light in the basement, a light which was on a pull switch (it's an old house). Seeing no use for the switch, since it was much easier to pull the chain at the light when I needed it, I took out the switch, connected the wires directly and put a metal cover over the box (exposed, of course, even I know that).
So, this is a switch box used as a junction box. Is it ok?
That's perfectly fine. So long as the "metal cover" you used wasn't a mayonaise jar lid.
well, I did buy the cover at the despot, I'll have to check it just to make sure :)
Yes, like DanH said, what you did is fine. I suppose there's nothing inherently dangerous about even putting a dead switch back in; it's just confusing to the next guy who's trying to figure out what the switch switches! My favorite though is a switch that turns off the outlet that the refrigerator is plugged into, or a switch that turns the furnace off, not labeled and in places that don't make their purpose obvious. When I rented, my landlady made it clear that I should't touch one swith because it would turn off the outlet the fridge was plugged into and I might not know it till my food spoiled. She had taped over it also.
Sounds like my place. I seriously took me a while to figure out what this switch was for, and when I found out, I was even more confused. I guess with a 2-fam house like mine, the idea is for each unit to have control over lights in common areas so the other tenant can't steal your electricity.
4Lorn1:
Your link dropped a character off the end.
http://www.aifittings.com/m_11.htm#1
You can determine the severity of an airplane fire by seeing if the crash crews race toward the fire or away from it.
thanks.
There was an extra colon in that link; i think you meant http://www.aifittings.com/m_11a.htm
"It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)
"Troubleshooting a situation where there is a buried box or connection is a major PITA as it can be anywhere. I have seen them drywalled over, hidden in false beams and, one of my favorites for sheer stupidity and creativity, filled with mud."
4LORN1,
One would think in this day and age, there would be some code approved method (vs. what many a remodeler does all the time) way of splicing a connection safely in a wall. If one weighs the advantages vs. the cons, "f### it, and hide it" in five minutes, compared to something way better, too many hacks take the first approach.
Jon
I agree.
A lot of folks take shortcuts. A lot of the potential risk is related to how circuits are used. If a circuit will never carry any load more demanding that a 5w night light how connections get made would be less an issue. Problem being that people are not so predictable. You never know when Junior will take it in his mind to highjack his big sisters hair drier and blow dry his teddy bear in the privacy of his bedroom.
The reason for the requirement of accessible connections in a box with a cover is two fold. There is no connection that is 100% proof against the wear and tear of cyclic loading. Crimp on connectors, required in some areas, we once touted as foolproof and everlasting. Not so. Even perfectly applied I have seen them fail. Given that it was 60 years later and the circuit was overloaded on a regular basis but it still shows they are not bombproof.
The other part of this is the box. If, actually when if considered very long term, the connections deteriorate and overheat the box serves to keep flammable or conductive materials away from the overheated connections and any sparks generated from the surrounding materials.
The connection fails. Part of the circuit goes dead. The five years of flickering lights and weird effects, such as the sound of 'frying bacon', having gone blissfully unnoticed it typically takes the complete failure of the circuit for anyone to call an electrician. This guy gets paid by the hour and finding hidden connections takes a lot of time. Another reason to have this connection where it can be found.
On the up side this failed connection, safely enclosed in a box, didn't cause a fire.
This is a good thread...surprising what folks can learn here. Had to put my foot down many times on this very issue! Don't, and I mean don't as in don't, bury J-boxes...period!
Peace
It is kind of odd, though, that it's legal to bury a junction under two feet of earth, with no box, when it's not legal to bury one in a box behind 1/2" of drywall.
You can dig up the underground splice with a shovel, and not many people are going to prevent you from doing that. But how many HO's would be willing to let you do exploratory surgery to find a hidden splice behind walnut paneling or fancy stone tile?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Well, I'd certainly rather dig through 1/2" of drywall than two feet of frozen dirt.
A splice under two feet of dirt won't burn the house down if it fails.
Dave
But a metal junction box should take care of that.
Well I found the two plastic junction boxes. I calibrated the stud finder (put it on metal scan) on the box that was marked on the drywall that was empty so I got a good read of what the other two should be like nand found them after 3 small 1/2" square holes which I patched up with setting compound and a heat gun. The entire episode took only about an hour and fifteen minutes.
lesson learned..from now on they will all be cut out..still I say the electrician should have them sticking out past the studs.
Was listening to the radio a while back and this gal was explaining the "neutro switch" and what an electrical hazard this thing is. Seems the electric runs back thru the water pipes..just thought I'd let 4Lor1 explain this :-) I'm no AC/DC so take it away boys!
The sad part is ... the plastic boxes usually have little ears molded on the side so the box registers correctly against the stud to set the depth for 1/2" drywall. If you set the box too deep, it won't sit flat against the stud.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
I agree that the electrician should have the front edge of any boxes proud of the studs. This can be an safety issue in that any material proud of the box face is exposed to any sparks from within the box as the cover will ride on the surface of the wall not the front edge of the box. The NEC is specific as to what is allowed and most AHJs enforce this rule firmly.
Everything flows more smoothly when the electrician is sensitive, boy that term has take a beating recently, to the needs of the other trades. A box placed too close to a door or window usually doesn't look right but more importantly it can interfere with casings. I have seen a frustrated carpenter cover the box and stuff the box into the wall cavity.
I corrected this and had a talk with the carpenter but it was the helper that caused the problem by not thinking about where the box should go to meet both NEC requirements and what the other trades are doing.
"... it's legal to bury a junction under two feet of earth, with no box, when it's not legal to bury one in a box behind 1/2" of drywall. "
Dan,
Last I heard, soil isn't combustible.-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
"The reason for the requirement of accessible connections in a box with a cover is two fold. There is no connection that is 100% proof against the wear and tear of cyclic loading. Crimp on connectors, required in some areas, we once touted as foolproof and everlasting. Not so. Even perfectly applied I have seen them fail. Given that it was 60 years later and the circuit was overloaded on a regular basis but it still shows they are not bombproof."
4LORN1,
No arguments there. But just a hypothetical.....Which is IYO, safer? A very well connected and buried in a metal box splice that is completely encased on all sides in a fire-proof box with a de-rated breaker, AND with the location of the splice noted and identified on the panel (obviously non-NEC)...or a NEC approved accessible plastic (flammable) on all sides box with access but hap-hazardly done? (Pretty common and will usually pass inspection)
"What if" in lab testing the buried metal box was shown to be less likely to cause a fire in an overloaded situation?
Jon
Jon-
As much as I may agree or disagree with you, this kind of thing isn't really open to a lot of debate. The code is the law and that's that. You can run alternatives past the inspector, but I would be astonished if one agreed to allow a buried J-box. In fact, if one did, I would get their approval in writing with signatures (mine, his, and a witness) and dates. - lol
These discussions remind me of my first 4-5 years as a nuclear engineer. I can be pretty stubborn and it took a long time to realize that arguing with NRC inspectors was even less productive than arguing with a stop sign.
You can run alternatives past the inspector, but I would be astonished if one agreed to allow a buried J-box.
Dave,
I think you missed the point I was alluding to. That lot's of remodelers do it all the time, they never get caught cause they aren't being inspected, and because of that, who knows if what they did is a fire waiting to happen or not. It would be nice if the code addressed this, rather than just saying you can't do it.
From an engineering perspective, there is no reason one couldn't do an effective (and safe) splice. IMO, some parts of the NEC go overboard, and the end result is less safe installations due to people taking shortcuts 'cause they know what they are doing won't pass, but who cares 'cause it ain't going to see an inspector anyway.
Jon
Yeah, there's a danger in having rules that are known to be excessive, in that folks will violate them when they think they can get away with it, and then the more important rules are apt to be regarded as equally ignorable. It would really help to improve safety to have an approved technique for in-the-wall splices, even if it isn't 100% safe and reliable.
A bunch of peole jumped on my azz for my post.......I should probably leave well enough alone.........BUT, anyone who has done A LOT of remodeling is sooner or later gonna stick a j box in a wall.
Please tell me how a well made up j box splice inside of a interior drywall constuction is more of a fire hazard than one mounted to a floor joist inches away from the bottom of the subfloor in a drafty crawlspace. One is legal and one is not.
Often in remodeling you are faced with making choices......can i put a splice on this or spen 3grand to run a new line back to the panel. It isn't simply economics, but esthetics and more sometimes. You are simply not going to leave an exposed j boxe in the middle of some ones wall or ceiling.
A solution to this constantly recurring issue is needed. Maybe there is a multimillion $ patent lurking here!
I've got the hose out, flame away!
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
"A bunch of peole jumped on my azz for my post.......I should probably leave well enough alone.........BUT, anyone who has done A LOT of remodeling is sooner or later gonna stick a j box in a wall."
You sound like an alcoholic. 'Stop me before I drink again'.
I have done repairs, upgrades and remodels for many years and have yet needed to bury a box. Imagination and a large bag of tricks has made avoiding burying a box behind a finished wall fairly easy.
Walls and ceilings have two sides. Junction boxes can be hidden, but readily accessible per NEC, in cabinets, tucked in behind high hat fixtures or, if the carpenter is willing and talented, behind removable panels.
NEC requires the boxes to be:
'accessible' - "Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building."
NEC 2002 Article 100 definitions.
If you get an inspection they are going to require a certain minimum number of receptacles to be places around the rooms. Why the required receptacles would be acceptable but a junction box is not is beyond me. Unless your electrician doesn't use boxes. Sure just glue the receptacles on the wall or run extension cords everywhere.
If you can't meet this minimum requirement I wonder what else you cut corners on. You can save money by not installing hurricane straps. You don't need tar paper under those shingles and ice shields are unnecessary as long as the check clears before the first snow. Under sized headers are also money in your pocket. There are lots of ways to cut corners if you decide to avoid inspections and shirk the rules.
You don't like the requirements of the NEC? Go to a code panel and plead your case to people who work in the trade. Most panels are open for written commentary to members. Explain to the Master electricians, engineers and contractors with many decades of experience why you have to be able to bury a box or two. Make your case. Maybe they will they will be so impressed by your elequence and reason that they make the changes you want. Good luck.
Of course Anyone lazy enough to bury boxes is unlikely to go to the trouble making such a case. Easier just to cheat. Do what you want. Don't claim it is OK or 'Fine Homebuilding'.
Are you really Bob Walker in disguise??
Instead of jumping all over my azz for something I do that you don't like, and further are incapable of proving is dangerous other than citing the code, please answer the question in my post.
Look, I'm not gonna drag this out into a federal case.........ask ten bonafide remodelers if they would allow their licensed electrician to put a junction box inside of a wall and I bet at least 8.5 will answer yes.
You don't know me, don't call me lazy. I am economical. No one worth their salt is gonna tear half a house open when the alternative is to install a j box.
Now go back to my post and directly answer the question.
I am done arguing this and eagerly await your response.
Eric
the j box smugglerEvery once in a while, something goes right!
After following this thread, and your comments, this far, your tag line now makes sense. I used to think it was intended to be ironic, but the more I read your comments, the more I'm inclined to believe it's a reflection of your actual practises, beliefs, and experiences.
Please let us know what company name you're working under, and your location. With your attitude and your declarations concering what you consider acceptable practices, I wouldn't want to unwittingly hire you or have you work on the homes of any of my friends or acquaintances.-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
how'd you know I was an alchohlic..........did I see you at Rhode Fest??
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
>>If you can't meet this minimum requirement I wonder what else you cut corners on. You can save money by not installing hurricane straps. You don't need tar paper under those shingles and ice shields are unnecessary as long as the check clears before the first snow. Under sized headers are also money in your pocket. There are lots of ways to cut corners if you decide to avoid inspections and shirk the rules.
You're completely losing me here bro..........we're talking about j boxes, nothing else that's it. I don't cut corners. I will provide you with a list of references if you don't believe me.
Hurricane straps are not required here.
Always use tarpaper (not Tyveck) and ice shield.
Never undersized a header yet unless you count the dog house.
Don't avoid inspections or 'shirk the rules'.
I don't know who you've been talking to. Must be listening to those voices again. I know you haven't been lurking around my jobs or speaking to my clients.
Would that statement that you made qualify as an embellished extrapolation ?
Get a grip.
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
>>You're completely losing me here bro..........we're talking about j boxes, nothing else that's it. I don't cut corners. I will provide you with a list of references if you don't believe me.
By definition, if you're burying boxes in the wall you're cutting corners.
You don't think it is important but not many folks here have agreed with you.
If you aren't following the rules, by definition (and by the self-description you are giving here) you are cutting corners
A lot of this stuff is subjective: how dangerous is any given practice or "condition?"
How dangerous is reversed polarity? How dangerous is a multiple tap on a breaker?
How dangerous is amateurish workmanship?
As has been mentioned, part of the issue is ongoing maintenance and changes.
You probably have no idea if and how many times someone has come along after you and tired to change something in the system or diagnose a problem and soundly cursed you for that practice.
As to that 8.5 out of 10: why don't you look through the responses here and see how close you come on that guess.
PS:
>>Are you really Bob Walker in disguise??
It seems to this disinterested observer that you are being the "Bob Walker" in this thread: "everyone's wrong but me!" {G}
The difference is that I don't argue with licensed tradesman about their field: as a matter of law as a licensed electrician 4Lorn knows more than you do.
"It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)
Edited 8/16/2004 8:19 pm ET by Bob Walker
>>By definition, if you're burying boxes in the wall you're cutting corners.
>>You don't think it is important but not many folks here have agreed with you.
By YOUR definition, your opinion. If you said I was in violation of the code I could not disagree with you. If I did not think it was important I would not still be here. I've read a few dancing around the subject, how many responders are remodelers having completed the same amount of work I have or are willing to step up and admit to the mortal sin at hand. To some extent I am trying to learn something, but seems lost at this point.
>>A lot of this stuff is subjective: how dangerous is any given practice or "condition?"
Well, other than telling me that the practice is illegal, no one yet has really answered that question. Perhaps I am still here to find that out. I still don't have a response to my hypothetical situation from a couple of posts ago.
>>How dangerous is reversed polarity? How dangerous is a multiple tap on a breaker?
>>How dangerous is amateurish workmanship?
See there ya go agian Bob. Don't accuse someone of being a pedophile because they ran a stop sign.
Just because I let an licensed electrician hide a coulpe of j box splices you and forlorn have labeled me a huckster doing shoddy remodeling work, Where do you get that from?? You and forlorn are THE ONLY ONES THAT HAVE ACCUSED ME OF THAT .
Please answer me directly how you arrived at that conclusion having never met me or seen my work, much less a headline about a house that my j box burned down!!
>>You probably have no idea if and how many times someone has come along after you and tired to change something in the system or diagnose a problem and soundly cursed you for that practice.
Yeah, no kidding genius, I been there and done that enough times. A j box is a last resort. Just because I stated that I "bury 'em all the time" doesn't mean I do it as a short cut. You and forlorn ASUMMED that and YOU ARE WRONG. It is a last resort.
WHat the heck is it with guys like you any way, constantly avoiding the questions put to you and always putting words in peoples mouths??
Trick question: I have a room on the second floor of a three floor brand new house. The panel is in the basement on the other end of the house. Some jerk cuts through a 12/3 feeder a foot or so after it comes through the the sole plate. There is no way the owner is going to let me put an access door in this wall or the ceiling below. The other side of the wall is brick veneer. There isn't much hope of dropping a new home run all the way to the basement.
What do you do??
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
OK Eric, my turn at you.
NEVER bury junction boxes or splice in walls without boxes. Period, end of story. There is always a better, safer way than than " just bury it, I can't see it from my house".
In the example you want answered, I would cut a hole in the sheetrock to fit an old work box at receptacle height. Then I would cut a hole for an old work box in the baseboard. The baseboard box will get a blank plate, and the box at receptacle height would be blank, or another receptacle. There are never too many receptacles despite what the decorator says. Paint the blank in the baseboard to match the trim. Stain grade? Woodgrain it. If that seems too much for the homeowner, tell them you need to start cutting holes in the drywall back to the panel, to conform to the NEC. Do they want two holes or lots of holes? Do not make it your decision to cheapen the repair of a mistake. The customer will remember you when problems surface later, they will not remember the cheap cost at the time of the mistake. Your reputation should be worth more than " I just had to that one time".
So practice " No, it cannot be done that way legally".
Ready for your next what if situation that you think can only be solved by doing shoddy work.
Frank DuVal
>>In the example you want answered, I would cut a hole in the sheetrock to fit an old work box at receptacle height. Then I would cut a hole for an old work box in the baseboard. The baseboard box will get a blank plate, and the box at receptacle height would be blank, or another receptacle. There are never too many receptacles despite what the decorator says. Paint the blank in the baseboard to match the trim. Stain grade? Woodgrain it. If that seems too much for the homeowner, tell them you need to start cutting holes in the drywall back to the panel, to conform to the NEC. Do they want two holes or lots of holes? Do not make it your decision to cheapen the repair of a mistake. The customer will remember you when problems surface later, they will not remember the cheap cost at the time of the mistake. Your reputation should be worth more than " I just had to that one time".
Who ever said that the need arose from a mistake? I would like to see you attempt the above in a $150,000.00 kitchen. Good luck!
>>Ready for your next what if situation that you think can only be solved by doing shoddy work.
I amazed that you can see this far! I'll be right over to examine your work Mr. Expert.
I'm done arguing this . Apparently all the experts here have never been in a hard place and only work on perfect worl jobs.
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
Can you put boxes in baseboards? I had a house once where someone replaced all the receptacles that had been in the baseboards (I thought because of code) and left me holes to patch when I got the house (I think he'd cleverly put furniture in front of the holes before I bought the house).
BTW--I don't in any way mean that question as criticism--you've gotton more than your fair share IMO.
Why don't you all go down to the Woodshed Tavern and cool off with a couple beers. I'll buy the first round! ;-) [Carp! Couldn't remember the right name of the freakin' tavern. Got it now.]
Edited 8/17/2004 8:56 pm ET by Danno
Edited 8/17/2004 8:58 pm ET by Danno
Thanks for the beer.......next rounds on me!
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
"Well, other than telling me that the practice is illegal, no one yet has really answered that question. Perhaps I am still here to find that out. I still don't have a response to my hypothetical situation from a couple of posts ago."
Well there are two different reasons for things in the code. Safety and maintability (which is also is related to safety).
Now I doubt that anyone here can really answer "how unsafe/safe" it is to have a burried box.
One would need to be a fire inpector, work for an insurance company, on the standard committee or similar where they would collect the statistics.
Just as you can't tell me how unsafe a building would be if you undersized a header by one size.
But the other requirements for itens in the code are not the inhairent safety of the wiring, but the long term maintability. If a hidden connection fails and it can't be found then "alternate" methods will be used. More likely to replace the fail outlets with permanate extension cords. To not have lights in some rooms. And other sub-standard repairs.
Re: "Trick question: I have a room on the second floor of a three floor brand new house. The panel is in the basement on the other end of the house. Some jerk cuts through a 12/3 feeder a foot or so after it comes through the the sole plate. There is no way the owner is going to let me put an access door in this wall or the ceiling below. The other side of the wall is brick veneer. There isn't much hope of dropping a new home run all the way to the basement."
Actually this sort of situation is my bread and butter. Your statement makes assumptions common to a lot of 'new' work electricians. They wire new homes and rarely get to develop the skill set needed to efficiently fish wires blind. You would be surprised how easy it is to get those wires into the basement if needed.
It seems reasonable if your sawing through materials and cut a cable the wall is open enough for me to get my hand in. A 2" by 3" hole is sufficient, barely. I leave some skin. So I can reach around and see what is going on. From that understanding, and not uncommonly without even that leg up I cut in an old work box at receptacle height.
No room, horizontally, for the box in the stud bay? No problem I go tight to the other side of the stud and drill through it sideways, slightly above the box, to get the existing cable into the box. Lacking slack one way I go the other way studwise.
So now we have the existing cable ready to go safely into a box. The box remains out until the last. So now to the panel end. On the first floor I check out the situation. I can eyeball the cable run, assuming the cable was run by an electrician and no one buried a box, and get it within a foot or so. I also use a tracker to follow hidden cables. Through drywall I can get within a couple of inches. A studfinder tells me where studs are to simplify the picture.
A box cut in the ceiling near the wall along this track or similarly one in the wall near the ceiling is a possibility. Either being relatively smooth plaster or drywall would make it a good spot. As noted a blank receptacle plate or textured round or rectangular one in the ceiling can be done neatly and, once painted, virtually disappear.
Just for the sake of argument lets say this is a historic building with antique silk wallpaper so any oddly placed box covers on the walls are going to look ugly, I have worked under these conditions, and the cable is inside a double floor joist that doesn't allow it to get to the ceiling. Also no chases or closets, where a box near the ceiling would be acceptable, are present.
No major issue I go to the height of the receptacles in the room beside the tracked location of the home run and cut a hole for an old work receptacle box taking care to shift it so it is in the same relative stud bay as the one I cut in above.
Then it is a simple problem of using a flex bit to drill a hole, assuming one isn't present and I can't use the old cable to pull in my new one, to allow me to run my cable. Once drilled it is relatively easy, it needs a bit of finesse and an experienced hand to do efficiently, to use a fish tape run down and a short wire hook worked by a helper to complete the run and pull in a new run.
Once the cable is in getting the cable ends into the boxes and the boxes into the wall and neatly covered is simple. An option is to install receptacles or use blank plates that can be painted or wrapped in wallpaper.
Given miserable working conditions, everything running against you, no other reason for an electrician to be on site so additional travel and set up delays, an inexperience journeyman and green helper this might take a day on the very outside. Total price about $500. Not an unreasonable price for covering an error considering the price of a renovation.
Given an electrician and helper experienced in old work already on site doing other work and a little luck two hours might do it. Run you about $150 including parts.
Given some fat on the contract, extensive similar work being done in close proximity and a favorable break, like the old cable being loosely stapled allowing it to be used to pull in the new cable this might be completed in an hour or so. Adding nothing to the cost of the electrical side of the renovation.
A good electrician estimating for old work, repairs or renovations, always adds a healthy pad to cover the surprises that are to be anticipated in such work. Rewiring is almost always more expensive than wiring a similarly sized new building.
Of course had you consulted with a quality electrician to look at the situation before you went wild with your Sawsall the cable would have been located and avoided. Cost? About what you would spend in time and material hiding connections in the wall. Of course had you used a stud finder with a live wire alert before you cut you would have been able to avoid the situation.
Lesson being that if you screw up you repair what you damage. You repair it properly, by the highest professional standard if you value your reputation, even if it costs you. This is just the cost of doing business in renovations. How much something like this costs you, as I pointed out, varies greatly. Depending on how bad you screw up, the experience of the electricians making the repairs and the details of the situation. $0 to $500 being a rough range.
> .... a fish tape run down and a short wire hook ....
Have you tried these glow in the dark fiberglass push rods?
http://www.kenaindustries.com/pullingrods.html
I have a set, they're the greatest. An inspection mirror helps a lot to find the glowing rod when you're looking into a stud bay thru a small hole.
-- J.S.
>>Re: "Trick question: I have a room on the second floor of a three floor brand new house. The panel is in the basement on the other end of the house. Some jerk cuts through a 12/3 feeder a foot or so after it comes through the the sole plate. There is no way the owner is going to let me put an access door in this wall or the ceiling below. The other side of the wall is brick veneer. There isn't much hope of dropping a new home run all the way to the basement."
I should have added; you may NOY cut a hole in any other finished surface in the house. NOW fix it with out a junction box.
>>Given miserable working conditions, everything running against you, no other reason for an electrician to be on site so additional travel and set up delays, an inexperience journeyman and green helper this might take a day on the very outside. Total price about $500. Not an unreasonable price for covering an error considering the price of a renovation.
Now you are telling me to hire inexperienced help!! My electrician with a helper is closer to $1500.00 per day.
>>Given some fat on the contract, extensive similar work being done in close proximity and a favorable break, like the old cable being loosely stapled allowing it to be used to pull in the new cable this might be completed in an hour or so. Adding nothing to the cost of the electrical side of the renovation.
Yeah, more of your perfect world.
>>Of course had you consulted with a quality electrician to look at the situation before you went wild with your Sawsall the cable would have been located and avoided.
Read the post, it wasn't me.
You still haven't answered my question.
Please tell me how a well made up j box splice inside of a interior drywall construction is more of a fire hazard than one mounted to a floor joist inches away from the bottom of the sub floor in a drafty crawlspace. One is legal and one is not.
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
>>As for the actual issue of perfect splicing, I suppose if you could weld the copper conductors and then cover with a seamless insulation, nylon coating, paper strength or packing or protective elements and a seamless outer sheathe, this would probably be acceptable. NASA could do it but who can afford NASA's cost?
I just perfomred a NASA type "perfect" splice. "Call-before-U-dig" missed a switched yard light line. My root cutting Sawzall found it 6" below the surface. This is on my FFIL's home and no inspections will be done. The work is a yard drain trench.
I learned the technique in the Navy making undersea splices. First wash your hands, degrease all tools, sand the wires, Make up a Western Union union. :) Liquid tape, let dry, rubbertape, vinvl tape, rubber tape, vinyl tape, friction tape, vinyl tape, liquid tape.
30 mins/wire x 3 wires x 2 ends = 3hours x electricians rates = $$$$$$$
Planned on the splices lasting forever, hope they last till we have to remove the tree, maybe 10 years.
Would I do this for a client? NO WAY! Cheaper, safer, and less liability to replace the cable. On this job, my time is $20/week. I OWE that man.
SamT
Of course, you're allowed to bury splices underground, just not in walls. (:-))
This is one of the most fascinating threads I've seen on this forum. The debate is honest and nobody has resorted to name calling like I've seen on other sites.
It's been mentioned before (by myself and others), but code compliance is probably the single best reason to not bury j-boxes in walls. While I think that this can be done safely, I won't do it because of the potential liability. In other words, CYA is the only justification I need.
I'm not taking sides, but this just reminded me of a frustrating experience I had. During a house remodel, we were trying to replace the wiring running under a one room addition. It was in pipe, but wouldn't pull out from either side. The room was sitting on a crawl space that had a concrete foundation topped by brick on all four sides. No access panel or vent. Oak floor covered the room. Since we were getting the floor sanded anyway, we ended up cutting a huge hole in the floor so we could crawl under the room and find the huge junction box, uncovered, with a million splices hanging out of it. Had electrician move the j-box to an accesable location. Flooring guys replaced the butchered section of floor.
""Call-before-U-dig" missed ####switched yard light line."
Did they miss it? Or did they just ignore any possilibity of it?
At least in the KC area they only test for stuff supplied by their contracting utilities.
They would not check for the water or sewer (specially the sewer grinder pump electrical) from the small city that I am in.
Bill-
Something most folks don't realize is that those location services (Dig Alert, etc) work from drawings supplied by the various utilities. In other words, if it was never put on a print, thay aren't going to 'locate' it. Another problem is that prints are often incorrect. I've seen stuff marked beautifully that was comletely off because the utility had incorrect (or out dated) drawings. Our local phone company is supposedly 10 yrs behind in updating drawings. - lol
Not exaclty.
I know that drawings are used in some applications. Had a gas main cut and found out that the utiltiy had wrong drawings.
But "tracers" are also used. And that is probably what is used for residential applications and local drops.
The most common apply and electrical tone to one wire (for power and phone) to ground. For gas they used the electric trace wire run with the plastic pipe. In think that in some other case of metal pipes they attach to the 2 ends.
Then they use a receiver and antenna coil to trace it.
There are also sonic versions that they can used with plastic pipes.
And there are radio transmitter bugs that they can float down a sewer and flow it with a radio receiver.
> There are also sonic versions that they can used with plastic pipes.
Around here, when they bury plastic gas pipe, they include a tracer wire. And, as I understand it, buried fiber optic cables also include a tracer wire.
work from drawings supplied by the various utilities.
The local cable company uses only magnetic induction for marking out when called by our version of digsafe. The current cable company is the third(fourth) to "inherit" buried cable. They keep having a turnover in the "markout" tech job--part because it only pays $8.50 per hour. Part because it's easier to find the abandoned-in-place coax than the in-use fibreoptical (that had no or bad tape placement). Being yelled at for not finding what could not be found not being worth $8.50 per hour.
The phone folks are starting to use induction readers, but they are hampered by the flag tape not always being installed properly (or at all), which makes finding fibreoptic cable just a tad problematic.
The gas, water, and electrical seem to go-by-what's-on-the-plans. But, I have seen the water folk actually look for existing items (like meters, hydrants, & the like).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
He double checked the marked phone cable, found the electrical main, found the old phone cable and the tv cable. Id'ed them all too. The tv, main and the missed were all in a 6' span.
edit
JOHN_SPRUNG
You ever have to wait for liquid rubber to dry while sitting 1000' under water?
SamT
Edited 8/18/2004 3:50 pm ET by SamT
> ...in the Navy making undersea splices.
Did you actually make splices under water, or were they done on the surface for use under water?
-- J.S.
Actually, he made 'em in a submarine. (;-))
Keep in mind that the "call before you dig" service is only there to find UTILITY lines. A line to a switched yard light isn't their responsibility.
"Keep in mind that the "call before you dig" service is only there to find UTILITY lines"
More accurately only for utilities that PAY THEM.
Hey y'all,
I'd like to thank firebird for raising the issue--because it got me to thinking about why no one has developed a romex (or MC) splice that could be buried (i.e., not accessible) safely in conventional construction.
There'd be a big market for it. And we know that people do bury splices. I've never done it, but I sure wouldn't want to have to get to one or two boxes I've installed while the walls/ceiling were open. They were accessible, yes indeed, if you're 98 pound @ 6'6" and are double-jointed. Tough crawl. real tough. I used a Buchannan copper sleeve and a C-24 crimp tool, the matching snap-on insulator caps, and a few layers of scotch 33+. Inside a steel box and blank cover.
So why isn't there a permanent splice device/technique designed and approved to be inaccessible? Greenlee makes a little 6-ton battery-powered crimper about the size of a flashlight. That and the right crimp sleeve, and the connection is forever. No taps, now--just straight splices of cable. Insulation technology is so good that field-applied insulation could exceed the dielectric strength of the factory stuff on the conductors. So if we had such a system, properly applied, and a metal box and cover--and the system was torture-tested and shown to be proof--? Why not? You could even put some intumescent (fire) putty in the box, so if things go bad, there's no fire danger.
Remember, K&T wiring is exactly that, a system with inaccesible splices, and not even in a box. I believe that well-done K&T (that hasn't been abused by overload or damage) is as safe as modern systems, if you set aside the age-related degredation of the wire insulation. I've seen and dissected a lot of K&T splices and haven't found one yet that looked questionable. Anecdotal evidence, sure. But think about it.
SO why no buriable splice system? Well, it's all about money. Mainly, money to get the U.L. and other approvals. And then money to lobby the Code-making panels to approve the use of the thing. Then money to get it accepted by the people in the field. So it'd be a huge up-front investment, with a long time to pay-back (if ever).
But it sure would be nice. And probably safer than having people bury splices that are poorly made up, using cheap wirenuts...
Cliff
And money to pay the lawyers when some bozo screws up a splice and the company gets sued. I suspect that's the main problem. You can try to make the splice foolproof, but fools are too damned ingenious.
Dan,
Yea, that too. Maybe to start, a deal like the copper to aluminum branch circuit wiring splice system ("copalum") that's available to licensed electricians who are certified by the company. Then a few years down the road, with some real-world experience behind it, make it available to anyone who'd be willing to cough up the bucks for a 6-ton crimper.
Several years back , I worked closely with a guy who started his career installing K&T.
He said that there was a lot of resistence among the old timers when loomex and porcelain wire nuts were introduced and K&T phased out, post-WWII. Change is hard, for most. The older I get, the less I'm willing to accept change without seeing a clear benefit.
Cliff
Unfortunately, even if the house burns down because the kids were playing with matches, the company that made the connectors will get sued.
If I had to, I would be thinking Twist-lok extension cord ends (ducking)...lol
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Actually, not that silly, if the plugs were the type that clamp the wires, and if everything was silicone coated.
that's really what I was thinkin, in our shops all stationary tools were wired that way, except for a few hardwired machines, hell you do chinups off the cords.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
> I've seen and dissected a lot of K&T splices and haven't found one yet that looked questionable.
Weren't most of them soldered? I haven't seen much K&T, black pipe is far more common here. A lot of that has splices that were twisted and soldered.
-- J.S.
I have seen a few that were defective. Cold joints mostly, only visible when you slice it open, but one or two that had overheated enough to melt the rubber tape, it had run out of the splice and dripped onto the wood lath of the ceiling below. The friction tape on the exterior unwrapped because the asphaltum that made it stick got hot and dried out.
There were, in only one spot, dark rings around where the rubber had dripped. Fire? House would have gone quickly as it was Florida heart pine. An entire house framed in lightered wood. Immune to insects but they light easily and burn hot.
I do agree that K&T wiring has some good points. I like that it is not dependant on the insulation on the wires. The rubber used was only expected to last a decade or so so they came up with a system that was not dependant on it. I read that the PVC common to most modern wiring will last for a long time but I have my doubts.
I have seen K&T systems in good working order after 70 years. What will the NM look like after 70 years? If the insulation fails, because the conductors are only held apart by the insulation, there are going to be a lot of fires.
A lot of the reason your unlikely to see a buriable splice has less to do with reliability or safety directly related to the splice itself.
Simple fact is that no splice systems, even some fairly exotic ones, are 100% foolproof or reliable. Given enough splices even the most conscientious will make a mistake. Even the best manufacturing QA system has a definite percentage of defective parts that get past it. Even if the installer was 100% the parts are not.
Connections will fail. The differences that an exposed box has are manifold. First being that a connection made in a box, prior to the cover being installed, can be inspected. At the least having ones work exposed is to tacitly take ownership for the work and an opportunity for pride of workmanship.
Some make great claims about the efficacy of the connections made and the care taken making up a box that is being buried. How do you know? It is buried. You have to take his word for the care taken and that he even put it into a box.
Those who don't understand the relative ease that a box, or two if needed, can be mounted make great claims about the difficulties. I would suspect that they may not know how to properly make up a box and, possibly, not know how to make up connections. A person unwilling to spend the small amount of money to mount a box is also likely to cheap out on the connectors.
Of course even if the connections and box were perfectly made up they can still fail under highly variable loads. This leads to possibly the biggest reason why buried splices are not allowed. What happens when they fail. In a box mounted on a wall exposed troubleshooting and repairs are relatively simple, easy and cheap.
A box buried in a wall that fails is a big problem. Where is it? Notes in the panel are not going to get it. Houses get renovated. That box that was '3' from the master bedroom door' is still in the same place but the bedroom door has moved. Paper in panels might last 20 years. Maybe not.
Never mind that the renovator, not wanting to spend the time and money to do it right, has likely added one or two more hidden boxes. If he bothered to put the connections in boxes. Once you go to the 'dark side' ever shorter 'short cuts' are likely. Hidden in the wall no one will know.
What gets me is that buried boxes transfer costs from the renovator, who saves time and money, to the HO who has to pay when a dead circuit takes four hours to troubleshoot as opposed to a simple fifteen minute job if the box was accessible to be worked on. This is theft. It is an illegal transfer of money from the HO to the renovator. That it may take decades for the problem to come to light makes no difference.
Lacking a qualified electrician present the frustration of not being able to find the fault or cost of the repair, many times more than what it would cost to do it right, leads to the use of extension cords or the local handyman making substandard work-arounds. These can become very dangerous.
The final point is that considering the ease of doing it right there is simply no need for a buriable splice. I can cut in a box in minutes. If there is a little slack in the cable, always a good idea, a single box will cover a lot of situations.
Despite what was claimed the prices I quoted were average to slightly high for this area. Given an electrician with experience in 'old work' my estimates were entirely reasonable. How experienced a contractor or a crew working for a contractor may be in any narrow field is highly variable. I cut my teeth on renovations, repairs and upgrades. Others may have more experience in industrial work or controls. It pays to ask.
Your reply brought to mind a situation we had in a highrise--lady's toilet kept overflowing with suds. It seemed likely that someone above her was using a portable washer, but the drawings showed that all the plumbing above her went along to the opposite end of the hall and then down. So we started investigating, removed the drop in ceiling panels and lo and behold there is a main stack running from first floor to fifth floor at the other end of the hall from where the drawings showed it, in fact right in the corner where this lady's apartment was. The plumber (and all the other trades) was supposed to provide "as built" drawings for any changes, but he (like most of the other trades) hadn't.
Large jobs demand 'as builts' I love the ones that are accurate. Unfortunately very few are even loosely related to reality.
My xBIL once had the job of drawing up bogus drawings for a secret government building. They were required to file something with the county building inspector's office, so he invented something, just given the outside dimensions of the building.
That sounds like a blast. Sketch in a 'body grinder' in the basement. Alien body storage freezers on the second floor. Light sabre rack in the hall. Death ray turret, with appropriate power supply, on the roof. Go wild.
>>Well, other than telling me that the practice is illegal, no one yet has really answered that question.
Actually, several have.
May I suggest you reread the thread.
>> >>How dangerous is reversed polarity? How dangerous is a multiple tap on a breaker?
>> >>How dangerous is amateurish workmanship?
>>See there ya go agian Bob. Don't accuse someone of being a pedophile because they ran a stop sign.
Huh?
If it doesn't follow code, in my book it's amateurish workmanship, regardless of who does it or what his or her license is in.
Is it the end of the world? I don't think so and I don't think anyone here has said it is. It is a poor practice? I think so and so do the others here.
If you're going bury boxes, in my opinion you're doing amateurish work.
That's my opinion.
>>Yeah, no kidding genius, I been there and done that enough times. A j box is a last resort. Just because I stated that I "bury 'em all the time" doesn't mean I do it as a short cut. You and forlorn ASUMMED that and YOU ARE WRONG. It is a last resort.
Last resort or not, it is still wrong and a short cut.
And how the heck can you think we assumed anything when you yourself said "I do it all of the time?"
>>WHat the heck is it with guys like you any way, constantly avoiding the questions put to you and always putting words in peoples mouths??
>>you yourself said "I do it all of the time?"
We've answered your question. That you don't like the answer doesn't mean it hasn't been answered.
Straight answer to trick question: follow code.
Without seeing the actual situation, its hard to know whether you can put in a box with ####cover; most people wouldn't even notice.
Do it right and if he does notice, if you aren't up to telling the truth just tell him "it was there all the time. You never noticed that before?"
"It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)
>>Actually, several have.
No Bob, no one has as of this post.
The question:
Please tell me how a well made up j box splice inside of a interior drywall construction is more of a fire hazard than one mounted to a floor joist inches away from the bottom of the sub floor in a drafty crawlspace. One is legal and one is not.
>>Is it the end of the world? I don't think so and I don't think anyone here has said it is. It is a poor practice? I think so and so do the others here.
How many qualified experts(licensed electricians) is that Bob?
>>And how the heck can you think we assumed anything when you yourself said "I do it all of the time?"
Yeah ya know, it was not meant to be taken so literally Bob. It occurrs would have been more appropriate, but then upon cross examination you would have pried the "real" answer from me.
>>We've answered your question. That you don't like the answer doesn't mean it hasn't been answered.
Oh, it's "we" now? The question has yet to be answered.
Eric
Every once in a while, something goes right!
To Bob and Forlorn in particular,
I am done arguing this with you.
Yes, yes and yes again, I understand that placing a junction box in a wall or other closed place without access is against the law. You both did a fine job of exhausting that point.
Still yet, no one has addressed the issue of why you suggest a made up connection in a "hidden" j box is more dangerous that one that is accesible.
I proposed a real worl situation to forlorn and he took it and sugar coated it into this perfesct worl situation with electricians work work for half the price of ones around here.
I have yet to met in 25 years a licensed electrician who had a big problem leaving a splice box in a wall if he felt that connections, loads and circuit protection were all in a comfortable range. I remember an instance in a kitchen remodel where there was a healthy 8 or 10/3 feeder that fed a wall oven that was no more. So we need 1 more circuit in the kitchen. Now we have 2! But wait, abandon that perfectly good feed, and start poking the ho's house full of holes so we can run a "new" feed up at a cost of around $2000.00. Oh, by the way, every one who bid the job planned on using those feeds, but I'm supposed to either pay for the new ones out of my pocket (or maybe sparky would like to!), or bid the job 2k higher and explain to the ho why.
This is the real world.
By the way, several BT'r who have read this post have emailed me privately to let me know that the loosly agree with me, they just did'nt want to get into this type of circular argument.
I guess all the electricians I have worked with over the years are a buntch of amatuer hucksters. I will tell them that when I call them all to let them know that I am hanging it up to. Apparently I am a useless amatuer as well.
I whipped, you win.
Eric
former contractor/builderEvery once in a while, something goes right!
Re: "I guess all the electricians I have worked with over the years are a buntch of amatuer hucksters. I will tell them that when I call them all to let them know that I am hanging it up to. Apparently I am a useless amatuer as well."
You pretty much summed up my opinion of your capabilities and the talents and integrity of the electricians you hire. $1500 a day and these hacks can't handle the situation and stay legal? Boy are you getting ripped. Or are you buying a lack of integrity?
I agree. No reason to continue arguing. I don't care how much work you do or how much money you claim to make. I don't think I have anything to learn from you. Your methods, your standards and your ethics are not something I care to imitate. Be well.
Dano:
Yes, you can put boxes in baseboards. If the receptacles need to meet the ADA requirements, then no. I put boxes in baseboards all the time in older homes to match the existing receptacles.
Eric:
In a kitchen, it is even easier, just put the old work boxes in the back of the cabinets!
Using an existing run of 10/3 to power new circuits is a great use of resources. I would do the same thing. No need to bury a junction box though.
$1500 a day for electrician and helper? Where are you? I need to move!
4 Lorn is in my price range. And yes, any electrican that does renovation work knows how to avoid boxes in walls, they just must be pulling your leg.
I will go out on a limb and answer your question now that you admit boxes in walls are againt NEC. I never said that a box in the wall is a fire hazzard, just that it is againt NEC and very hard to trace circuits when problems or additional rehab work follows. If all connections are inside a UL approved box with a UL approved cover it should be no more of a hazzard for fire if the box is exposed or enclosed in a wall with the exception of temperature. Temperature could work either way, with the exposed box being in more or less of a heated area than the burried box. Flame suit on.
The fire hazzard would be from connections not in boxes and not done the knob and tube method of exposed joints.
You asked:
"Trick question: I have a room on the second floor of a three floor brand new house. The panel is in the basement on the other end of the house. Some jerk cuts through a 12/3 feeder a foot or so after it comes through the the sole plate."
In my reply I used the word "mistake" to describe the act of cutting the feeder. You said it was no mistake. If it was no mistake, then money should have been available in the estimate to fix the problem, and a "jerk" would have not have done the deed.
Again, just tell the homeowner that a visable or cleverly hidden junction box is necessary. Do not let them talk you into talking your subs into shoddy work. The "jerk" is responsible for fixing their mistake, and the fix has to be lawfully. Do not allow yourself to be dragged down into shoddy work to save a buck.
I have been asked to bury boxes, I just say NO.
Frank DuVal
"Still yet, no one has addressed the issue of why you suggest a made up connection in a "hidden" j box is more dangerous that one that is accesible."
Because connections can fail. Pretty simple concept. Electricity vibrates ... sh!t loosens .... tape dries ... nuts fall off ... not really a hard concept we're dealing with here ... nothing lasts forever.
That ... and being the "real world" ... stuff is miswired.
"I guess all the electricians I have worked with over the years are a buntch of amatuer hucksters. I will tell them that when I call them all to let them know that I am hanging it up to. Apparently I am a useless amatuer as well."
Apparently so. And so must be the inspectors that pass such things on a regular basis ... unless everyone played along and hopes to fool the inspector. Then again ... the electricians aren't there to watch the drywallers cover everything up, are they?
"useless amatuer" ... if you are proudly covering up junction boxes and proudly working against code ... yes. You are a useless amatuer. Happy?
by the way .... a useful professional would sit that customer with the $150K kitchen down and tell them short and sweet that the only work being performed under their watch will be legal work that will pass any and all inspections. You can't find any room in a $150K kitchen to work within the codes?
that .. and I've been in enough of them ... a $150K kitchen doesn't impress or scare me one way or the other any more .....
The customer isn't always right. It's their junction box ... it's mu lively hood and my kids next meal. I could care less if they wanna violate some code they think is useless ...
Oh no ... suddenly I'm Bob Walker ......
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
sh!t loosens , and nuts fall off??????????
man, it's the end of my world, I just KNOW it.
I think my dad said somethings about old age once,
1 never waste a woody
2never trust a fart
you been talking to him?
speaking of nuts, when ya get a dog neuterd ( you do know what that means, right? haha)
the parts they throw away are called "neuticles" did ya know that?
Now you too are ready for Jeopardy..
"what are neuticles ?, Alex"
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Aha! A new insult.
You. . . You. . . You neuticle.
You ain't nuthin' but a neuticle.
Best of all, ignoramouses who truely deserve it, won't get it.
Gotta love it.
SamT
well, actually, a 'neuticle' is a prosthetic replacement for a testicle - - it would still work as an insult tho...."there's enough for everyone"
Then again ... the electricians aren't there to watch the drywallers cover everything up, are they?
Over the years I suspect we cut out many junction boxes because they were sticking past the stud or joist..but if the stupid electrician leaves them flush with the stud then it's not the drywallers business. The inspector should catch that! The drywaller should not become an electrician and if an electrician does leave them flush with the framing..I suspect 99.99% of the drywallers will not cut them out.
then it's not the drywallers business.
Sure .. right.
No sense the drywallers know anything about building codes and actually caring about the trades that came before or after them .... or the home owners ....
Are U drywallers really that stupid you can't remember not to cover up junction boxes? BTW .. on that note ... there's either a portapotty or a working toilet on site ...
Stop sh!tting in the empty buckets ya pig!
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Sure .. right.
Ya got dat rite!
No sense the drywallers know anything about building codes and actually caring about the trades that came before or after them .... or the home owners ....
Don't worry about me no more about cutting them out even if the electrician nor the inspector knows what they are doing. So if I'm a drywaller now I got to become a certified electrician and know all the codes for every trade..yea right! And for the 80% of the Latinos who do the drywall in the USA they all have to take a building course..gee Buck..this is not a political thread so show some reality in Construction Technique thread will ya! Ok so now will have the drywallers do the electric work!
there's either a portapotty or a working toilet on site ...
Maybe half the time..then we leave the empty buckets for the other trades that follow! Still time is money..too long of a walk for Johnny-On-The Spot.
So with that same logic should HVAC guys who cut 95% of a 6x18 glu lam be let off because they shouldn't have to be a structural engineer?
Or what if the carpenters left you absolutely no blocking? If the GC says "hey, they're not drywallers, give 'em a break" would that fly?
I think not.
What it comes down to is don't cover any thing that the other trades left open (junction boxes, HVAC returns, plumbing stubs). Is that too hard?
Jon Blakemore
I have seen too many times where even boxes with half an inch past the studs still got covered. Sometimes they just force the drywall into contact with the studs and the box deflects. Other times they just let the drywall stand off the stud a half inch. Got to love the walls that flex and the screws or nails that pop through the mud if you lean on them.
I have gotten in the habit of using spray paint in a bright color to mark the floor where my boxes are with a symbol that tells me at what elevation my box is at. Standard electrical symbols work.
That way when my box gets covered I can find it easily with minimal conflicts with the drywall guys. They hate it when you go around a tiled room with a hammer slamming a rough slot into the wall to find a junction box. As for the drywall standing half an inch off the studs? I leave that an issue between the HO, GC, rockers and inspectors.
Ok so now will have the drywallers do the electric work!
Exactly which part of cutting around a junction box .... set proud or recessed ... involves doing electric work?
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I'ma gonna git some li'l metal thingies made up, thet will jest slip inna J-box and stand
2 INCHES PROUD!
SamT
Exactly which part of cutting around a junction box .... set proud or recessed ... involves doing electric work?
You said that the drywallers should know "about building codes"..so now the rockers got to know the codes for the other trades who are certified, have passed tests and got licenses and still can['t do it right! A rocker does does not get a license, the electrician who hires a clown at $7.00/hour to do his work is the real culprit here. I told ya I marked the empty box with no wire in it but I'll be dammed to unscrew every covered box that's in line with a stud..that's the electricians's job to have it stick out. and if he don't know that he should pick up a drywall screw gun.
I looked up your profile, and read your personal comment.
What you said there and what you said in this post is 180 degrees.
Zano, I have not "trade". I'm not an electrician, carpenter or drywaller, painter or glazier - but I have to do them all, and I have to do them well and safely.
If I see something my electrician leaves poorly done, (damn rare) I'll correct it, same as a carpenter I hire or any other trade. Depend on an inspector?
THAT'LL BE THE DAY!!
They're human and they make mistakes too. When it comes to quality construction, I AM my brother's keeper.
Sorry, Zano, with your attitude, you just would not last on my crew. I could not afford the increased insurance premiums.Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
Hey Aaron,
trust me on this will ya..we do correct a lot of mistakes from the trades prior to us..we knock in studs, put studs on a corner, flat tape an off angle prior to using the wide angles No-Coat tapes to get that off angle straight, on off outside corners we put in side studs so we can securely install the corner bead..etc., etc. What gets to me is that many trades prior to us just slop thru it and we have to do their work..it does add up.
By the way, 10 days ago I did my first GC job, a basement framing, drywall, electric (got a good electrician that I know), etc. figured doing so many for others I had an opportunity now do one myself. Ya should have seeen my first drawing for the permit application..it passed. Well the inspector upon inspecting the framing said this verbatum "I have never seem such good work". He told the owner later that this is the best work he has ever seen and now I got 5 more lined up in the same development. I did not want to bring this up..buy hey, when ya got it flaunt it ;-) I'll take on you, Buck and anyone on here for quality any day! Ya know, I give so many good drywall and steel framing tips here and noone actually takes them up....as one finisher told me who worked for the GC who finished the bathrooms in a nightclub that I just did and and we finished the rest of the 600 boards.."you took my finishing two levels higher".
Guess I gotta do it all to do it right! ;-) You hire me and I swear you'd be the best in Canada!
I'll take on you, Buck and anyone on here for quality any day!
OK .. just note that I won't be slowed down by having the home owner tell me the junction boxes have to be dug out!
Ahh ha ha ha .....
btw ... the old "inspector told me" ... that's how they blow sunshine up the HO's a$$ .... he musta thot you were a beginner ....
Ahhh hya ha ha ha ...
Jeff
so how do we do this "take on" deal anyways .... my stuff is usually pretty firmly attached ... I'm thinking you'd better put the wheels back under your masterpieces and tow them down here for the judging .....
btw ... a picture is worth a thousand words ....Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Time to get a good drink, your most comfotable chair, and sit back and enjoy the show.
Let the games begin!
Jon Blakemore
Yo Buck My Man,
OK, on the other job I did some round walls..told ya not to use any screws/nails in the field and just blob the drywall glue on..cause that makes the framer look real good...I will take my camera although I think the painter already primed it..but you'll get the feel of the photo just try to weave that pretty little gal with that nice butt ya stroked in high school when ya look at that round wall photo..that's how my wall is!
So tell me..where does that wire hanging on the wall go that's just floating there.. I hope the electrician can stretch it wherever he wants to after I guess where it goes! It's all guesswork after the "before me trades".
I'll take some photos of the basement just to prove to ya that old inspector don't BS around here..the man knows QUALITY when he sees it! This ain't PITTSburg ya know.
gee .. now I'm scared.
anyways ... that wire .... either me .. the GC .. or the electrician ... usually him ... I only put it back when the stockers pull it out ....
that wire goes thru the cardboard that's screwed to the studs ... the one the electrician set with a hold at just the right height ... and in the right stud bay ....
BTW ... how ya gonna GC anything if U can't understand the building codes ...
a GC does more that call the subs on the phone, ya know?
Once ya build more than one basement you start learning all sorta tricks like the old "wire thru the cardboard" one .....
Ahh ha ha ha ...
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Edited 8/23/2004 11:52 pm ET by Jeff J. Buck
Edited 8/23/2004 11:52 pm ET by Jeff J. Buck
Build me one of these ... then get back to me ....
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Build me one of these ... then get back to me ....
Nice work indeedee! Say, what stich did ya use on the couch and where's the beer can holder on it? Soon you'll be able to sign your work with your real name instead of "Jeff Doe"! LOL I'lle get back at ya when I start doin' them too..these days I just lie on them.
And thanks for bringing back the fond memory of the cardboard on the wire..why do good things go the way of the Dodo bird?
why do good things go the way of the Dodo bird?
Remember .. we're behind the times here in Pittsburgh ...
we still utilize "good things" ....
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Nice curves on that drywall and I assume you used the arch cap..the one that is one peice on both sides and you slip it under the arch.
Cerealsly, I think most of us are here to learn and get better! Goog to see other's work who are quality oriented.
the lead time on getting the premade archs sent was one down side ...
second was the home owner wanted to kep tweaking the design ...
so all was framed and cut freehand. Had to make a bunch of cardboard templates before final approval. Steel stuf framing ... wood where it made sense ...
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Lookin' good..just why are ya using 3 5/8" studs on the soffits? With the price of steel today 1 5/8" is more than adequate. I see you stiffened them up with wood as you laid then flat on the bottom. Bet ya those curves slowed ya down. 8 years ago bought about 10 cartons of the arch cap and have about 15 left..just used 3 of them on a house that we are doing..guess what..the owner is an electrician so i asked him about the junction box and he said that the maximum that they can be in from the drywall is 1/4"..I knew that that the electrician should not have left them even with the studs.
I used the full studs thru out as this was a work in progess from the beginning ...
just wasn't sure what all would be bulkheaded ... so I just ordered a boat load of full studs from the get go ... luckily ... this was all build at the end of last year/beginning of this ... so the prices hadn't jumped to insane just yet ...
not sure which stiffening with wood you are talking about?
the arches were wood ... actually took no time at all .. much quicker than I'd thot ... the one shot of an angled nook with a little door and rounded arch was added as the drywallers were stocking!
I like to like my steel stud door opening with wood ....
and also run a PT 2x as my base plate on concrete ... if on a wood deck .. it gets regular wood base plate ... makes for better base nailing ... I add any blcoking I can think of for cab's and towel bars, etc ...
The one shot of the "desk area/art area" was framed up with wood as the owner decided it's be a desk area now ... instead of an "art wall" ... and we needed the extra height to rest the new deck top on .... that was framed up with lumber because I just happened to have the right sizes of wood sitting about an inch away.
I also made some of the bulkhead "angled transitions" outta wood ... easier to hold up and chop to the right angle ... and adjust a hair for a nice tight fit ...
the over all style isn't my style at all ... but I love the way it turned out.
The one with all the finish grade wood and wainscot is more to my liking.
Then again ... I'd live in either!
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
You have some wood thru the studs in the middle of the soffit..I thought you did that so they won;t bend since the studs are not "upright".
Man, when ya do a good job and you look it at it's one of the most satisfying feelings around.
To open a sore wound:
Firebird,You posed a question about burying J boxes in walls and asked what would be the problem if all the connections were tight. After months of soul searching and inner debate, I am forced to conclde that you are right. 4Lorn gave the basic electrical reply early on in about message #7. Indeed, if your connections were absolutely tight, there should be no problem for the life of the house. However it is still against the Code. The critical point is that the installation must be inspected and that can not be done if the box is hidden.
Liken it to this: I do not like smog devices in my car. If I take it to a professional mechanic and ask him to remove them, he will not do it. His license and integrity is more important than your cash. However a fly-by-night will do it but you will also be subject to the rest of his shoddy bag of tricks. I watched a hanyman "electrician" install a heater in my unit. He made at least three major Code violations in the process-- #14 wire on a 20 amp breaker; #12 and #14 wires spliced with a small orange wire nut [all he had available]; romex run over edge of wood stud, covered with joint compound and no protective steel plate. But he was fast and cheap which is what the realtor wanted.
~Peter
no work??? bad day perhaps??
That thread is JUST a LITTLE old..............
Ya wanna go at it some more???
>>Code violations in the process-- #14 wire on a 20 amp breaker; #12 and #14 wires spliced with a small orange wire nut [all he had available]; romex run over edge of wood stud, covered with joint compound and no protective steel plate.
First, and if ya read the thread........I do not do any electrical work. I use licensed electricians.
Second, I did not start the thread.
Third, you are making a comparison of blatant mechanically defective work to something quite unrelated.
I have found and read the code. The main reason for not placing a jbox in a wall or elsewhere, is because it MAY make it difficult for an electrician to diagnose a future problem on that circuit SHOULD that situation present itself. Oh well.
Nothing wrong with a good challenge. I have been involved in situations such as this, and by putting a couple of good heads together, it can usually be figured out. So maybe ya gotta put a couple of holes in a wall. Oh well.
I don't anticipate that anything that the electricians I use will fail or present a problem in the future. I have seen some work that has, or will, but it ain't being done by the likes of the people I use.
No one writing to that thread (the code thumpers) could prove that hiding a jbox posed a safety issue. A LOT of theoretical jive talk was tossed around, some of it substansiated, alot of it just plain bull. Any outlet, switch or ceiling box is in effect; a jbox. There is no safety issue with these, inspite of the fact that they are often in direct contact with flammable fabrics and other materials.
I work in houses where it is not uncommon to open a wall and find a jbox in there, so my electricians are not the only ones doing it. If there is some huge safety issue with it, why are so many electricians willing to do it?? Yeah, I know, they're ALL a bunch of worthless scumbag hacks. Oh, me too, I almost forgot.
YAWN..............
I give fixed prices for residential remodeling. Sometimes I find things that I cannot see while estimating the scope of the work, and sometimes these issues present challenges to me, and addittional expenses to both me and the HO. That is the nature of the beast.
If you really have a problem with it, my advice would be to contact the UL in this area and file a complaint.
Eric
oh, one more thing before I forget........a half a dozen or so of the regulars here......some of the guys that are really doing this kind of work; although they did not participate in the thread, emailed me privately in support of most of what I was posting.
It's not the best practice, but you do what you need to do in the most efficient way you know how to.
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Are the ELECTRICIANS burying the box, or is someone else coming along LATER and burying the box? My last house someone added Sherlock to the basement ceiling. There were a number of boxes buried, but I doubt it had anything to do with anyone who did the electrical work, licensed or not.
>>Are the ELECTRICIANS burying the box, or is someone else coming along LATER and burying the box? My last house someone added Sherlock to the basement ceiling. There were a number of boxes buried, but I doubt it had anything to do with anyone who did the electrical work, licensed or not.
Ok Sherlock.............
I wasn't gonna breathe life into this but............
No one is BURYING anything. Do we bury studs, or insulation or joints in a pipe??
We COVER them with wall finishes.
IF a jbox is inspected during rough, it must also pass finish and it's ensuing criteria. Therefore, according to code, it could not be covered with finish.
Someone added Sherlock to the basement ceiling..........
Care to fill us in on that one?
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Firebird,
I'm not exactly sure what PM22's conclusion was. In the last post, he wrote:
After months of soul searching and inner debate, I am forced to conclde that you [firebird] are right
For what it's worth, I don't see any big safety hazard to burying boxes, either. I have a very hard time believing that properly secured wires can work themselves loose. I always make sure the nuts are tight, and then I wrap them well with electrical tape before pushing things back in the box. I've never had a problem, but I don't do this full time, either.
My two cents is that for the 1 box in 10,000 that might come undone, looking at the other 9,999 cover plates on the ceiling or whatever doesn't make sense.
Edited 12/28/2004 6:28 pm ET by ragnar
I have to wonder what else he has done in these months........spending all that time searching his soul for the answer.............to THIS!
whateverI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
I must be bored.........or very addicted.
Or someone else is.
I am about to delete all my posts on this thread.
Doesn't want to end............gonna follow me all the rest of my BT life.............
aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
First of all, I am on what is know as a "vacation". Second, the reason this came up was my update from Tauton mentioned this thread with [168] messages. This is all Tauton's fault. However, this has elicited several good responses down below -- especially 4Lorn's. I really liked SamT's list of "good reasons" to do lousy work. These should be published. [Please do not delete your posts as that would impinge upon the integrity of this thread.]
Does NASA use wire nuts? Are there any service electricians near Titan?
~Peter
Why doesn't West Virginia get to have any tsunamis? This is unfair. Would stopping up the cell block sink and leaving the water on create a sufficient flood to float someone with a naturally endowed triple E set of Mae West live preservers out to freedom?
Re: " I have a very hard time believing that properly secured wires can work themselves loose."Everyone, including complete hacks and half-competent electricians, think they "properly secure" all their wirenut connections. In a paraphrased line from Demming 'no one gets up in the morning thinking they are going to work so they can screw up.'Everyone thinks they are doing a fine job. If you doubt it just ask them. I must say that, without reference to anyone posting here and based on anecdotal evidence only, I have found that often those with the poorest technique are also the least able to admit any possibility of their being any weakness in their procedures. But even humble folks can make mistakes.And this is the crux of the problem. Humans are fallible. Even when we try our best once in a while things go wrong. The connection that we would swear was made as well as any we have ever made loosens, fails and poses a danger. Vibration and load related heat cycling often play some part. Understanding this it is important to make sure that when, not if, things go wrong that provisions be made to prevent as much damage, including the damage, physical and financial, caused by having to dig to find a hidden box, and danger to humans as possible.It is quite rare to see a section of unspliced cable fail. I have only seen two cases, one of which was likely a section damaged in shipping, in many thousands of feet of NM cable I have worked with. On the other hand I have seen many "properly secured" splices fail. Of the two major types of electricians, new construction and service, only the later gets to see much of this. The sample size for service electricians is larger and, by nature of why a service electrician is called - something doesn't work -, more likely to see things that go wrong and note why they do.I laugh when people put this in terms of buried boxes versus blank plates in ceilings. As if following a simple set of common sense rules will mean houses with dozens of blank plates hanging out like sore thumbs. It is fairly rare that I ever need to install one in a remodel. There are a lot of alternatives. Blank plates are the last choice.Smoke detectors, recess fixtures, sprinkler heads, motion detectors, occupancy sensors, speakers of various sorts are commonly put on ceilings. Very little discussion of this. It is no big deal. But a single unobtrusive and easily painted over or disguise blank plate is going to queer the architectural vision. Give me a break. Not one out of a hundred HOs would care.Of course some feel the need to defend their poor practices. Some use the broad, and unfounded, claim electrical codes are unneeded or faulty. Pretty much a joke this. Codes were a responce to people dying. Also codes are not produced in dark rooms. The process is open and subject to input by anyone who cares to inform themselves on the issues. Not uncommon to find people who don't like codes, or parts of the existing code, on code boards.Others are hacks who seek to rationalize their poor behavior. A lot fall into the thought that somehow they are special. I have had a hack, I have seen and had to correct his sloppy and ill considered methods, claim that no connection he has ever made has failed. Given that he only does new construction he really isn't in a position to find out if any of his connections have failed. Convenient that his position reinforces his beliefs.
I agree that junction boxes should be exposed, etc. But, practically speaking, how often does a connection fail? Never had a connection in our 28-year-old house fail, and can't say that I've ever heard a friend or neighbor complain about such a failure.You make it sound like connections fail right and left.
Working in a service area of perhaps 350,000 people. Single family residences, apartments and commercial properties. And working many years on service calls I can say that in my mind scarcely a week doesn't go by without at least one wirenut connection being bad. Sometimes none and the next week three. Wire falls out or break where they were nicked during striping. Wirenut falls off, melt or wear through. Connections overheat or corrode. Wirenuts misused or wrong sized. Sometimes all five at once. Every building has dozens of these connections. Thousands of buildings. Wild guess a million connections. One, on average, that I know about each week. I'm not the only service electrician. Others have seen similar situations. Of course my view is slanted. I don't get called when connections are well made and are working well. I'm a nice guy but few would pay the $75/hour for the pleasure of my company while I admire their perfectly functional wirenuts. Push-in connections, otherwise known as job security, and poorly made terminal connections are also major causes of failures. Aluminum feeders landed incorrectly are another major issue. Of course none of this matters much.
Argument: What are the odds of a connection going bad? Counter argument #1: How hard is it to make all junction boxes accessible? You can locate them on the opposite side of a wall or ceilings, under counters and in cabinets or below a floor accessible from the basement or crawl space.Counter argument #2: junction boxes can often be eliminated by simply rerunning some cable. Often just a few feet. Either eliminating an existing box or routing the cable to another existing box. As needed existing boxes can be replaced with boxes with more room.Counter argument #3: Really and truly, assuming there is no other option, how obtrusive and objectionable is a single blank plate if it is held low and out of sight lines. When painted, wallpapered or veneered to match? Counter argument #4: What are the consequences of a connection in a hidden box going bad? Assuming the breaker trip you have to dig to find it and correct the problem. That is mighty pretty wainscoting there but somebody hid a junction behind it somewhere along this wall. You don't mind if I get my crowbar and axe do you?Unfortunately bad connections don't always just fail or trip the breaker. Sometimes they just 'cook'. Continuing to heat up and arc. Ask a fireman. Which is more dangerous? A fire in the open with a chance the people will smell smoke or a detector will go off. Or a hidden fire smoldering in a wall and working its way into the attic. One you can detect, localize, fight or get the family out. The other can be at work for hours producing poisonous gasses or engulfing the attic. The house fully involved before anyone knows anything is wrong. IMHO it comes down to a simple cost benefit ratio. It isn't even a question of code. This is simple common sense. How difficult is it to keep junction boxes accessible? How much time and trouble do you save burying boxes. What is the cost? Assuming you, nor I, are perfect. What are the possible costs if something goes wrong.Seeing as the cost of compliance is very small, come on folks some try to make it sound like your pulling teeth and sweating blood to make a box accessible, it doesn't take much performance or safety improvement to justify it.Everyone thinks they are good drivers but seatbelts, anti-lock brakes and air bags are all decent ideas. I'm not sure of the tradeoffs but several of my friends would be dead or seriously injured without them. Similarly on most residential streets walking across without looking is pretty safe. You could likely do it every day for months without serious consequences. Most cars will stop or steer around you even if you step out at the wrong time. So why do we look before crossing the street? Simply because looking is easy and the possible consequences for not looking rather profound.
Geez, I was thinking of this the other day while I was inspecting an ongoing job.
When the major work was being done, 4 months ago, the bottom section of the wall was open. Sparky at the time runs armored cable inside the wall, and runs out, so he installs a JB and splices in and out it goes on to the soon to be enclosed balcony (my job).
Does he put in on a wall? Nope.
Rocker closes it in. New electrician tries to get new circuit out and can't because the box is in the way.
Now......
This will never be inspected. No question. Moving/eliminating the box will cost not only mucho dinero but be absolutely unacceptable aesthetically for the HO.
Who is going to win... Code, or the HO?Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
Aaron,
I don't fully understand your scenario. Why is there a second electrician, and what do you mean by "trying to get the new circuit out and can't because the box is in the way"?
2 phases of a renovation. One, modifying the place to their taste, and the second one, getting the balcony enclosed and a new office/closet built in the space.
I don't know what happened with the first electrician. I have a few issues with the second one, too, but not because of code.
I just spoke to the HO, who told me things in that wall have changed and there is now a duplex plug there, and I should bring plywood to block the outlet for strength.
Sigh. I love half-a-job tradespeople. It's what happens when the HO wants to be his own GC.Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
This will never be inspected. No question. Moving/eliminating the box will cost not only mucho dinero but be absolutely unacceptable aesthetically for the HO.Who is going to win... Code, or the HO?
- Who no inspection? In my area ... electrical work is to be done by a licensed electrician and is to be inspected and signed off on ... real electricians who feed their families from their jobs could care less about the GC or the customer ... only their job and their livelyhood ....
- Moving/eliminating mucho dinero? What was it priced out at. I bet it hasn't been ... There was a plan to extend the run of the wire ... why can't the box be removed ... new wire run .. and some drywall repairs done?
- unacceptable to the HO .... who cares? How acceptible is living somewhere else till the inspector says this place is habitable?
- Code, or the HO? U guys must all have way too nice electricians ... mine would flat out tell the HO to go F them selves ... he could care less about their feelings and issues on the current electrical code ... I don't care what they tell ya .. the customer isn't always right .... why is everyone so afraid to say ... "U can't" ... then ... "This is what we are going to do" ....?
I've had customers ask me to do all sortsa stupid things ... I just say ... U can't.
Next discussion ...
I say cutting apart trusses is perfectly acceptible ... gravity be dammed!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Jeff:
In my area, Tim Moony and cohorts are also the kings.
Let me explain.
HO has drawings and permits, in his name. HO told me that he will not be calling for inspection for his own reasons. His permit, his problem. I ONLY work to code on renovations, and if there is a problem, I consult with HO.
The issue with the JB buried is part of a previous renovation. The only reason it was discovered was because the (new?) sparkie had to run a new feed from the breaker panel to feed baseboard heaters and could not get the wires through at the point where other cable wires fed, and he opened the wall. Who was it you think told him that it is a code violation? I have no idea if the previous electrical work was inspected. As I wrote Ragnar above, HO told me this AM that there is now a duplex plug at that point, making the issue go away.
I (underline, bold, italic) told the HO that in no way would my drywall guy cover the box, and there had better do another plan.
In every area, there are hacks. You might not employ them, but from posts here, you know that some generals do.
Personally, if the HO has the permits or I have them, the work I am responsible for must be to code, or better.Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
I've had customers ask me to do all sortsa stupid things ... I just say ... U can't.
Do you tell the HO you can't or you won't? There's a huge philosophical difference.
oh boy............just wait til 4lorn gets home..........uhg.
Make it go away.
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
There's a huge philosophical difference.
too bad I'm a carpenter and not a philospher ...
there's no difference ... it's "my" job ... and it ain't happening.
If they really really want that box covered .... fine ... pay me the entire amount stated in the contract and I'll pack my bags today.
Just like when I was bartending and the owner would Fire me every other Fri for shutting him off .... got bad news for U kids ... our name is on it ... it is our problem.
So withy that in mind ... it's my job ... and it ain't happening.
Guess who's gonna call the fire marshal right after that "good-bye check" get's cashed anyways ... ahh ha ha ha ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
too bad I'm a carpenter and not a philospher ...
Everyone has a philosophy, including you. The only question is whether you've given it conscious thought or merely absorbed it from your surroundings.
again ... this is why I failed Philo class ..
don't care .. conscious thot or absorbed thru the pillow at night ...
it is what it is ... and it is my job site ....
and the customer isn't always right.
and that blank cover plate will look just fine in the end ...
even the inspector will tell ya so.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
>>and that blank cover plate will look just fine in the end ...
Says you; and that's fine when it aint your house and you aint payin the bill.
See Jeff, it's really all a philosophical debate over whether or not I want to look at a stupid blank up plate/smoke detector/ try to hide it anyway you want/ in MY house, on MY wall, on MY ceiling!
As you stated, you failed philosphy.
To ALL....wipe ur butt, dry ur tears and blow ur nose. Move along.........
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
See Jeff, it's really all a philosophical debate over whether or not I want to look at a stupid blank up plate/smoke detector/ try to hide it anyway you want/ in MY house, on MY wall, on MY ceiling!
I guess I can count you in my camp, Firebird: the camp that understands the principle of private property and individual responsibility.
So Eric,
Do you still bury junction boxes?
I have no idea what you are talking about.
((:-0)
As your village philosopher, I'm going to encourage you to keep pleading the 5th when confronted with these Plurium Interrogationum
The next thing you know, these jackals are going to ask if you are still beating your wife.
I think the only acceptable answer is "Only in a heads up sprint".
:)'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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I get a bit lazy in the winter, my wife works at and is in the gym, so come first spring ride I gotta haul her in every once in a while for about 2 weeks.
Then all I hear is how amazed she is what good shape I stay in "considering".
I'm so glad we have this to do together.
Now if we could move to Lake Placid for the winter and I could spend my days on the Olypic Oval..............
That's right, Mr. Heiden, you used to be a skater didn't you.I have to make it up to Lake Placid for Ironman one of these days.Isn't it nice to have a spouse to train with? I feel very lucky in that regard.Speaking of Winter Games, we are headed over to Austria this weekend. DW has a conference at the ski town where the 64 & 76 games were held. Supposed to be some great XC skiing. They've also got a bunch of trails groomed for winter running, so I'm interested to see what that's all about. I'm pretty certain I will not be trying any ski jumping. LOL'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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What's so hard about ski jumping? They're not very wide. I'm pretty sure I could clear at least two, if not three pairs...
It gets tough after the third schnapps.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Been there and enjoyed it very much.
Some advice, though....
stay away from the edelweiss schnapps.
<shiver>A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
I will let you on a little secret. Just between me and you. Don't tell anyone else.Yes, he still buries junction boxes. Right next to the bodies of those that ask about them..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Thanks, I needed a good laugh...............
4Lorn,
You make some good arguments in you last post. When all's said and done, it's an extremely rare case where it isn't more than just a couple of hours' work to run some new wire and thus eliminate the "extra" junction box and the "problem" altogether. That solution definitely makes the most sense, and it is the one I advocate to clients.
That said, I have to repeat my question: how many times have you got a call back on some work that you personally did to fix a wirenut that came loose inside a box?
don't waste your breath on 4.
He is the self appointed god of electricity here.
Can't answer a simple question in less than 150 words.
EVERYONE else, not doing work to the 4code is a hack.
He still has not answered your question or several that I posted months ago.
blah
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Well, the fact that he (4Lorn) won't answer my simple question indicates that he feels he has something to hide (or is that "bury" ?) :)
Arguments against not burying a J-box
I have only skimmed this thread, so I don't know who said what, but, the reasons I have seen for burying boxes are
Esthetics trump safety and maintenance
He's an expert, I'm not, therefore I know better
Breaking the law does not make me a criminal
What are the odds this life saver will be used
My work is always perfect
Others do it
It'll save the client a dollar
It'll cost me a dollar not to
The client wants to
Safety rules are made by idiots who don't care about safety
I don't estimate my work the reccommended way
Only hacks shouldn't do hack work
ROTFLMFAO
SamT
4Lorn,
I know you do this for a living, so you obviously have more exposure to this than I do. Given that fact, I was wondering if you could tell me how many times you've had a callback on one of your own projects in which a wire disconnected itself inside a box.
We've all seen the work of drunks and hacks. They do stupid things. However, I don't think an overzealous building code is going to save us from the drunks and hacks.
Perhaps there should be a law that all cars should henceforce be fitted with six wheels instead of four. That way, if one of the wheels fell off as a result of incompetent work at the hands of a drunk mechanic, the occupants of the vehicle could maintain control and avoid injury.
It's this type of thinking that has made the building code what it is.
Edited 12/29/2004 12:07 am ET by ragnar
here's another basement for ya ...
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
and some nice drywall details at the same place ...
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Gotta admit that's pretty sweet.
Now if you'll just get off that Coores Light stuff. and Pabst? Are you serious?sobriety is the root cause of dementia
"Please tell me how a well made up j box splice inside of a interior drywall construction is more of a fire hazard than one mounted to a floor joist inches away from the bottom of the sub floor in a drafty crawlspace. One is legal and one is not."
I did.
Question related to this:
does soldering wires give you a better connection than nuts? I did this in a building I remodeled that had four wires stuffed in ceiling junction boxes. When I replaced light fixtures that many wires in nuts made me nervous so I soldered and taped them. What do Bill and 4Lorn think about this, and does code address it?
remodeler
soldering alone ... I could be wrong here ...
but I believe the concensus is no .. not better.
"had four wires stuffed in ceiling junction boxes."
if there's not room for nuts ... the box might be overloaded ...
gotta keep the box fill sizes in mind.
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
soldering alone ... I could be wrong here ...
but I believe the concensus is no .. not better."
Jeff,
Which is why all modern electronics use twist connectors at every connection vs. a soldered joint, or is it the other way around? It's late and I'm gettin' tired so...no time to open anything to check,
I do know that in aircraft construction, the majority of splices are mechanical compression and plug-in. Solder, as well as twisties are a no-no. Guess the people at the FAA could learn a thing or two from the people at the NEC, given the failure rate of aircraft vs. homes. LOL
WSJ
same deal with the high voltage stuff my Dad worked around as a rail road signalmen ... all the connectors he worked with were mechanical.
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
>if there's not room for nuts ... the box might be overloaded ...
The boxes are overloaded. But the ceiling is plaster & lath with a skim coat on top of the plaster, which has electric resistance heating wires embedded 2" oc. There is no access from the top side (first floor apartments in multi-story building).
I really couldn't figure it out.
remodeler
While I have an EE degree my background is in electroncis and not power.
It has been years and years since I have seen any data on this.
But my memory is that an IDEAL soldered connection is better or at least as good as the idea wirenuted connection.
Howver that the typical field solder is not near as good as the typical wire nutted connection.
Just MHO, but a good solder joint is miles beyond an ideal wirenut joint. However a bad wirenut joint is easy to find and is still relatively safe. A bad solder joint is a fire hazard and must be tested with special equipment to discover. A simple ohmmeter won't find it. In fact sometimes only time and misuse can find them.
Insulation is a component of a connection that solder doesn't address, a wirenut does. Proper insulation of a soldered joint is a science. It takes more than just wrapping vinyl tape around the solder gob.
I'ld say it would take about 16 hours of classroom and lab to be considered a good solder joint fabricator and about 1 min for a wirenut person. 2 mins to learn how to make an ideal connection.
But the real reason you won't see solder joints in electrical power work is $$$. At 15 mins (minimum) per joint, a solder joint costs around $25.00 and a wirenut $.90.
I'll come wire your house with solder joints for you. How much will it cost, you ask? Get 3 bids from other companies, then add $300 per drop to the highest. Oh, and I'll have to use much bigger J-boxes so you will want to use 2x6 framing inside and out and I still might have to use a 4" box even with only one outlet or switch.
SamT
> a good solder joint is miles beyond an ideal wirenut joint.
I agree. I'm doing mine that way, twist, solder, and tape.
-- J.S.
John,
Obviously, I have no clue as to your training and experience.
That disclaimer entered in evidence.
I wouldn't. Unless you have lots of training and experience in electrical soldering and insulation, you will not be able to match the quality of a good wirenut joint.
Also, have you considered the time factor? A simple outlet box with one circuit in and out as you might find in your bedroom wall will take you about 45mins to do a proper job. Multiply that by the number of circuits and add 15mins per circuit over 1 on top of that 45min/ckt.
2 ckts in one box means 1.75 hours. 4 boxes on one ckt (common) means 2 1/4 hours (no joints in the last box.) You will also have to reduce the number of connections in the box or use a larger j-box.
And it must be done before DW as you will have to pull back excess wire to meet the 6" rule. You need a foot of wire outside the box to splice and insulate properly.
SamT
One thing I'll say on behalf of wirenuts is that it certainly makes remodeling easier. I can always cut off the soldered wires, but then they can get pretty short and have to be stripped and so on.
I've soldered everything from surface mount IC's to 4/0 cable lugs. I've also soldered plumbing and copper rain gutters, though sheet work I'm not good at. Mine is strong enough and watertight, but it looks like crap. My mother still lives in a house that I wired with soldered splices in 1971. So far, no electrical problems.
I haven't timed myself, but your estimates are high. I've never done splices one at a time, and the more you do in a set, the less you have to pick up and put down tools, which saves time. Making good joints that aren't cold isn't too hard. I twist the wires good and tight and have them sticking out horizontally. Then I tin the tip of the Weller and hold it to the underside of the splice, while touching the rosin core solder to the top. Heat rises, and that ensures that the splice is hot through and through. 6" is plenty to work with, and I don't have to worry about DW because I use EMT with compression fittings. If I really had to, I could cheat some slack from other boxes. I also use mostly 4 11/16 square by 2 1/8 boxes just because it's easier and the additional cost is small. What I could save by fussing with little boxes wouldn't even cover a trip to the grocery store.
-- J.S.
While this discussion is being framed in terms of what is the better method a more meaningful question would be, IMHO; how good does it need to be? To what standard and why?
Wirenuts, at least the good ones well applied, have approximately the same conductivity as the wire itself. The slight weakness compared to the conductor can be seen as a safety feature. A redundant and fail-safe fuse. Heavily overloaded the connection, safely encased in a box that contains any sparks and keeps flammable surfaces away from harm, fails.
If the connections were superior to the wire in conductivity the circuit would preferentially fail anywhere along the conductor. Given Muphy's Law the odds are in the least accessible and most vulnerable to fire.
IMO the increase in reliability obtained by using solder is so vanishingly small as to be invisible. No need to reinvent the wheel. Now if you really wish to get the best connections ultrasonic welding of the conductors or exothermic welding would give you a connection superior to the conductivity of the conductor itself. Discounting the bragging rights why would anyone want to go this far?
Wirenuts have a 70 year history of success and replaced soldered and taped connections for more reasons than just speed and cost. I have replaced a lot of failed soldered and taped connections. Much better to spend your time making a really good wirenut connection and using high quality nuts. If it makes you happy you can throw tape on these connections. Not that it will make much difference.
>>I have replaced a lot of failed soldered and taped connections.
I have repeated over and over that a good solder connection is a real pains taking task for a well trained and experienced person. And iffin it ain't good, it's much worse than a common wire nut splice.
A good wire nut connection is pretty easy to make and to know that it is good.
The only time I would solder is if I NEED; A: relatively small size, B: water or gas tightness under pressure, C: an absolutely garunteed 0.000000000 ohm splice. All 3, not just one or 2.
If I had to guess at the relative effectivnesses of the 3 types of splice, with new wire as 100%, I would rate a wirenut at 115%, a solder joint at 125% and welded at 150%. Comparing costs, with a wirenut being $1x, a solder joint would be $50x and a welded joint would be $1000x and up.
I certainly don't reccommend soldering except in very extraordinary situations.
SamT
Keep in mind that the solder in a splice is there to reduce the chance of corrosion, NOT to prvide mechanical strength.
Those old K&T joints were (or should have been) tightly-made up before soldering. I have several books from early in the last century about installing electrical wiring, and the number of styles of splice and the painstaking effort that went into making those splices was amazing.
The solder was there to enhance conductivity slightly, and mainly to keep the splice from oxidizing/corroding. Even if the joint heated up enough to melt the solder out, it shouldn't make any difference in the short run.
Cliff
When I say I have seen a lot of solder joints that had gone bad I didn't mean to mislead. I'm sure that in terms of the number of solder joints present the ones I have had to replace represent a very small percentage.
I suspect that these failures were mostly because of the typical method used up until solder stopped being used. Usually joints were made up with a good inch and a half twisted together and pointed down. A ring tripod and gasoline blow torch was set up and a ladle of lead solder was heated up. This ladle was usually toted around by a helper and the twisted copper connections stuck down into the ladle.
When the copper was clean and the solder was hot the joints came out well soldered. If the connections were not clean or the ladle had cooled the solder would form a cold joint.
Another problem is when a soldered connection is overloaded and the solder, possibly another cold joint, falls or melts off. As the connection is heat cycled the twisting can loosen allowing corrosion to form and the joint to further heat. Tape, particularly the rubber and friction types used when soldering was common did little to maintain pressure within the joint.
There are also be issues with early vulcanized rubber insulations, with a high sulfur content, and the lead solder and the copper conductors. Typically tin was used to coat the copper conductor to keep it away from the sulfur but this coating can be damaged when the wire is stripped and twisted.
Wirenuts, at least the good ones if well applied, are largely immune to this effect in that the spring expands with the wire as the connection heats up and recontracts when it cools. This greatly reduces the number of failures because of heat cycling.
If your concern is corrosion or sparking you could invest a bit more on the wirenuts you use and buy silicone grease filled ones. 'King' is a well known manufacturer of these and they are widely available. Both in a plain silicone filled, preferred in some industrial situations where corrosion is an issue, and nuts rated for direct burial for a bit more. The two types seem similar in construction and the silicon grease identical.
I use these most commonly when making up connections in pump rooms for pools and lift stations. The chlorine, hydrogen sulfide and possible rising water, in these areas can quickly corrode connections and the few extra pennies seem worthwhile.
A tip: Don't use panels with aluminum buses in areas exposed to corrosive gasses. Use panels with copper busses. Even in a 'sealed' compartment with conduit seals and gasketed enclosures I have seen the busses turn into aluminum oxide powder in six months. The extra $20 for a panel with copper busses is cheap compared to the cost of replacing the panel. I generally buy only panels with copper busses for even interior residential work. More to work with and fewer problems.
Your comment about the aluminum bus struck a chord with me.
We had a slow water leak into our panel, located in our basement, when it rained. I didn't discover it for at least several months. I fixed the leak, and the panel is now dry, but the aluminum bus is corroded enough in one spot that one circuit no longer works. I had an electrician come out and look at it, and he said that he would be willing to install a new panel, but that we didn't need to. That circuit only powered a single receptical, so it wasn't missed much. We turned the circuit breaker off, and put a piece of tape over that switch. The receptical is in back of a portable cabinet.
My question is if corrosion like that can spread in the absence of water. Are we fine just leaving it alone, or should we be looking for an electrician who can replace the panel some nice warm day this fall? I also wondered if I could carefully sand that one spot (with the power off, of course) and apply some sort of antioxidant grease to it to restore it.
If we do replace it, I'll ask for copper bus bars and maybe see if we can get an upgrade in the number of circuits, in case I want to add more later.
What do you think? Can aluminum rot spread without water?
Typically the aluminum busses are coated with tin to prevent corrosion. Once the tin has been damaged the aluminum is open to oxidation.
In similar situations I abandon that bus stab and coat the damaged area with an anti-oxidant to prevent possible spread. This can be important in basements where moisture and chemicals, particularly chlorine, may be present.
If you want to reactivate that circuit and you panel allows you could likely get a wafer, tandem or duplex breaker that allows two breakers to run off one buss stab. A reasonable solution if the breakers being replaced are 15 or 20 amp units and unlikely to overheat the buss.
You might be able to polish the corroded stab and apply a good anti-oxidant to ge that stab in operation again. I have seen, done, such things and have had some success. Such a job doesn't come with a guarantee as to how long it will last but if the load is small, amp wise, and the stab wasn't heavily pitted it might go for years. Worse case it goes bad under load and you loose the stab, already damaged, and the breaker.
I would look into the tandem or wafer breaker first but if they won't fit polishing and doping the stab would be an option. Not much to lose.
Excellent answer. Thanks.
I noticed that the busses were covered with some shiney metal, but wondered what it was. You can actually see the aluminum corroding under the tin in a few spots. Little blisters under the tin, and the tin is flaking a little. I haven't pulled out all the breakers, so I don't know how widespread the problem is. I only peeked behind the one that wasn't working right. It's severely corroded. (Some current would get through the corroded spot, but only at something like 80 volts.)
It sounds like I'll be replacing this entire panel in the next year or so. I'll talk it over with my wife and see if we want to bite the bullet and do it this fall, when we can dictate the schedule and do it on our terms. I don't want to be in the middle of winter with the power off for a day while the panel gets replaced.
Thanks again for your help.
With heat cycling the aluminum is apt to develop more bad connections.
At minimum you should de-energize the panel, pull all breakers, and coat the bus with silicone grease. While the breakers are out, check each one for signs of arcing or heating at its bus connection (and replace the breaker if you find this). I wouldn't recommend sanding the bus, except perhaps at points where it's obviously corroded and scorched.
But plan on replacing it eventually -- within the next two years or so.
Thanks. I hadn't thought of pulling all the breakers to inspect the entire length of the busses. It's kind of obvious in hindsight.
>>The question:
>>Please tell me how a well made up j box splice inside of a interior drywall construction is more of a fire hazard than one mounted to a floor joist inches away from the bottom of the sub floor in a drafty crawlspace. One is legal and one is not.
Ahh, that question. I thought you meant the question of why is it wrong to bury a box.
As I stated in an earlier message, a lot of this stuff is subjective, including degrees of danger.
For starters: by defintion, a "j box splice inside of a interior drywall construction" isn't "well made up "
Second, it isn't availible for later detection and inspection.
Third, "danegrous" isn't the only criteria for determining the rules.
Suppose, somewhere down the road, someone opens up that wall higher up for some reaon. They take a look inside and see a hidden box in there.
They don't know who hid it or what his qualifications were. All they know is that someone didn't follow the fairly simple rule.
How are they to view that?
I believe most will say: "jeez, this guy didn't follow one rule, what else did he screw up on?"
Now he's got to consider whether he should opening and checking every j box and receptacle and switch box in the place to see if the guy screwed something (else) up.
"It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)
Reguarding tarpaper: I remember several years ago on some TV homebuilding show (maybe the old "This Old House"?) they were saying tarpaper was totally unnecessary on a roof. So I was surprised when I began working for a framing carpenter who also did roofs and we were using tarpaper. Boss told me if you don't, the shingles dry out, the bitumin soaks into the sheating. I'm sure there are many other reasons as well, including that the tarpaper will keep rain out before you get all the shingles on.
Oh boy, everyone loves a good fight. No name calling, which is good.
In this corner we have the thunderous firebird -- who is not an electrician [hint: why is he installing electric?].
And wearing white trunks without the elephants permission, is the famous electrician from Tuscaloosa, the forelorn 4Lorn.
Now the issue at hand is this: "Please tell me how a well made up j box splice inside of a interior drywall constuction is more of a fire hazard than one mounted to a floor joist inches away from the bottom of the subfloor in a drafty crawlspace. One is legal and one is not." Usually, the revered Code is solely concerned with safety. But sometimes practical considerations slip in like the number of bends in a conduit run or consistancy in circuit colors. This is probably the case. I do not understand "one mounted to a floor joist inches away from the bottom of the subfloor in a drafty crawlspace". I will assume that this is just an example of an accessable box compared to an inaccessable box. The only tale I know of first or second hand is the electricians trying to change some wiring or something and the wires or Romex wouldn't pull out because of a splice in a buried J box. That's two or three electricians at whatever rates for several hours. As mentioned in a prior post, you will eventually get a lot of curses for this.
As for the actual issue of perfect splicing, I suppose if you could weld the copper conductors and then cover with a seamless insulation, nylon coating, paper strength or packing or protective elements and a seamless outer sheathe, this would probably be acceptable. NASA could do it but who can afford NASA's cost?
Other than that, splices are always less dependable than an unboken wire or cable. If there is a problem, 99% of the time, it will be in the splice. That is why splices need to be accessable -- so they can be inspected. In the rare case when the cable is punctured by a nail or piffen screw, the insulation scraped off by a burr left on conduit cuts or even a manufacturing defect, then troubleshooting will require access to both ends of each piece of cable.
Let's look deeper into the mechanics of a splice, typically done with a wirenut. Do you pretwist? Imagine a stack of 1963 pennies. Each flat surface is making full contact with the next flat surface. This is the condition of an unspliced wire. Now arrange two or three or four of these pennies side by side, grouped. They are touching only at one mathematical point. The contact area in a splice, 3 dimensional, would still be only a twisted straight line or helix or spiral. A lot less surface area contact than an unbroken wire. [How about hexagonal shaped wires?]
In a wirenut, there will be some conductance between the copper conductors and the steel spring inside the wirenut. You can analyze this to your heart's content but remember you are involving dis-similar metals and in damp conditions, you get corrosion, different rates of expansion in heat and so on.
This brings up the subject of the integrity of the insulation. In an intact wire, the insulation is continuous, providing not only electrical insulation but also protection from the elements. In a splice, the protection is interupted exposing the copper to the atmosphere, and in case of flooding and hurricanes, to water. In a dry area, this isn't much of a problem for a long time but it still must be inspected.
Also bring up the point about heating and cooling cycles, especially if daughter has a hair dryer [don't understand this - hair will naturally dry itself in an hour or two]. Again the heating and expansion will have a more deleterious effect on a splice than an intact, unmanipulated piece of wire.
I hope I have made my case for the usefulness of the Code rule and could you please clarify "one mounted to a floor joist inches away from the bottom of the subfloor in a drafty crawlspace".
~Peter
Tool policy: One of each, please.
>>In this corner we have the thunderous firebird -- who is not an electrician [hint: why is he installing electric?].
I don't although if my first post was taken literally I suppose one might ASSUME that. However, upon further reading, one would have discovered that Firebird hires only licensed electricians to do electrical work.
>>The only tale I know of first or second hand is the electricians trying to change some wiring or something and the wires or Romex wouldn't pull out because of a splice in a buried J box.
So you have alot of experience vs my 25 years.
>>could you please clarify "one mounted to a floor joist inches away from the bottom of the subfloor in a drafty crawlspace".
I could draw a picture......mount a j box to the side of a floor joist a couple of inches below the floor in a drafty crawlspace. I don't know how to make it any plainer than that.
If a connection fails in an accesible j box in the backsplash of a counter top with two months worth of mail and news papers piled against it, it is some how safer than one installed behind drywall. At least according to the experts. The point I am driving out that all the experts keep avoiding, is that a failed connection is dangerous no matter where it is unless it is encased in a fire proof enclosure.
Yes I get the law, but that is not my question.Every once in a while, something goes right!
this is very interesting thread, and since your post was one of the best, I thought I'd follow up and make these two non-electrician points/questions: (1) don't the boxes need to be accesible so the inspector can inspect the connections, or inspect pre-connect? and (2) isn't one reason why all connections have to be in boxes is because such a bright-line rule helps to discourage non-electricians or hacks from splicing wires outside of boxes? How many more splices would we see if people actually thought some type of slice was ok per the code?
I believe that is part of the reasoning. When you see one "short cut" you always wonder how many more that there are.
I worked on one house where there I found 2 flying junctions hidden in the basement DW ceiling. That lead to seeing cables going up the wall and in the room above finding junction box hidden wall where the front door used to be.
I cleaned up with mess and installed an oversized box to service as a junction box to feed the old wiring where it left the room to serve other areas, as a junction to supply a new circuit to this room, and a receptacle.
After I got done I had one wire that I though went to a porch light when this room was the living room and had the front door. But it turned out hot.
It was so f*cked up that I still don't know what happened, but I think that it was wired in a loop.
If I had caught it earlier enough I would have terminated it in one of the new receptacle boxes. But I had already cut it off so I had to stick a dummy box and blank coverplate.
>>flying junctions ????
Whazzthat?
"It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)
Maybe I should have used flying splices.
Splices made in a cable and hopefully taped up and Flying in the middle of a cavity, sans anykind of box.
What do you do when a homeowner changes their mind? Dining room had 6 recessed light fixtures installed. When the sheetrock crew did their thing, homeowner decided he only wanted 4 fixtures. Told them not to uncover 2 fixtures. I know they're up there somewhere. I installed trim on the four that I could see. The other two are now buried boxes. Sure to make somebody's life miserable at a later date. Not something I did on purpose, but have no control over it now.
Tell them what there options are and what the cost will be.
As I see it without seeing the job;
Leave them and if they don't want the light put in burnt out bulbs.
Leave them and find some decorative cover plates.
Possibly you can rewire them by fishing between the cans that will stay. Then you can knock out the others and patch the ceiling.
Open the ceiling and do it correctly and then patch/replace.
Dan-
Let's do a hypothetical here.
Suppose that the NEC folks approve a buried splice method that has been tested and documented to be 98% effective.
Suppose that such a splice is done by a fully licensed, bonded, and insured electrician - and is inspected and signed off by a building inspector.
Suppose the splice fails a few years later, the home burns down, and a family is killed.
The plaintiff's attorney would see this as shooting fish in a barrel. If I were the attorney, I'd look the jury in the eye and paraphrase the line from the credit card commercial..........."What's in YOUR walls?" - lol
Yeah, I agree, they've been scared away from anything like this by the aluminum wiring disaster. That's the real reason nothing has been or will be done in this area.
Dave,
I changed the stuff in your post that I highlited blue, red is you.................Let's do a hypothetical here.
Suppose that the NEC folks approve a junction box with a cover method that has been tested and documented to be 98% effective.
Suppose that such a splice is done by a fully licensed, bonded, and insured electrician - and is inspected and signed off by a building inspector.
Suppose the splice fails a few years later, the home burns down, and a family is killed.
The plaintiff's attorney would see this as shooting fish in a barrel. If I were the attorney, I'd look the jury in the eye and paraphrase the line from the credit card commercial..........."What's in YOUR walls?" - lol
So what's the difference? No differnce other than all subs are off the hook.
Jon
Jon-
The difference is that the subs aren't the ones making the rules. I suspect that one reason that the NEC hasn't approved anything - and that no inspector would sign off on it - is that they would be the ones facing the liability. Our (my) hypothetical attorney would probably be in a semi-orgasmic state 'cause those folks have some seriously DEEP POCKETS. To paraphrase yet another commercial I can imagine him/her saying to the plaintiffs..............."You want to supersize that settlement?" - lol
Note to anyone else reading this thread:
I personally think that a buried j-box would be fine if it's done right and if it's location were noted somewhere permanent (in the breaker box, maybe) so it could be located easily. While it's true that the cyclic nature of electrical loads can cause eventual splice failure, my suspicion is that a more probable cause of failure is when someone is jerking on the wires and gives up without ever finding the box.
they never get caught cause they aren't being inspected,
Was working at a restaurant in Manhattan, The Big Apple, about 6 weeks ago and it's Friday about 2 in the afternoon. Me and my boys finishing the acoustical tile and painting, the electrician installing his lights and the mechanical guys still at it..so I hear that the owner wants to open the restaurant on Monday and I laugh. The electrician notices my humor and I ask him "how can he open on Monday, is he going to get a final inspection this afternoon?". The elcetrician tells me that in NYC no final inspections are needed..all is required is that the sub certifies his work. I was floored and still can't beleive it..tell ya all I hate to be a fireman in New York City!The electrician said he knows of restaurants that have not been finalinspected in 8 to 10 years. Now being from another state where the final inspection is always gospel..I still can't believe it.
If you do rock for a living I would hope you already knew this.
"What gives on this?"
Not like this is something new here ...
Hope U don't do this sorta thing for a living.
actually ... now I hope ya didn't change money at all ...
What gives is right.
What's next ... whole building codes??
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
There are some codes which seem to be almost universal across North America. Stuff common in the Excited States may not be true in Canada.
This one is a common one in N.A.
I'm surprised you never heard of it.
Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the Handyman
Vancouver, Canada
Sounds like you need to purchase the "Code Check-Electric" book from Taunton Press.
Click on the books and video button at the top of the page.
You need to also understand the legal term " Et Al". Bob can explain it better than I, but basicaly it means everybody involved. You and your electrician are both liable for damages incurred due to faulty installations. Maybe your insurance pays, maybe not.
Like 4Lorn1 says, do it right. As a contractor you are responsible for all work done on a job. You don't have to know everything about every trade, but knowing the basics is essential.
The code check books are a good investment and first step in that learning process.
Dave
There were two outlets on that wall and another box with no wires in it. I cut out the outlets and marked the no-wire box for the homeowner on the drywall and asked him if there should be a wire in it.
The electrician messed up as he should have had the junction boxes sticking out 1/2" from the studs..why did he leave them even with the studs? If they were sticking I would have cut them out.
Not an uncommon error.
If there were no wires in the box, then IMO , unless there is greenfield or conduit attached to the box, it is not a j-box. Hidden wireing boxes, whether j-boxes or pull boxes are the issue, not empty boxes.
I have worked both as an electrician and the drywaller. On old work with greenfield, I would have put a plaster ring on the box to bring it out. As the drywaller it would have been cut out and left for the electrician to explain why it was empty.
If you are the general contractor and the electrician works for you, you are still responsible for his mistakes. At least in my neck of the woods. He might have to fix them, but I would still have to answer to the HO. We would both share liability if things went south, and there was a fire. BTDT.
Dave
Have any of you sparkys heard of "splice kits" that could be buried in the wall? My electrician says it a new product. He tells me they are only for romex, will not work with BX cable.
Its the first I've heard of them. My electrician is no slouch and he was going to ask the electrical inspector if he could use them in our juridiction until he found out my project is all BX.
Yeah, there is a splice that was designed for making connections between segments of a multi-module "modular home". UL rated to be buried in walls, but the NEC (so far as I know) doesn't acknowledge it and the local inspector may not allow it.
FYI--that modular "tap" kit (which looks like it could be used to splice two cables, though it isn't UL-listed for that) is designed and UL-listed for tapping a cable without a box. It isn't listed or intended to be closed in an inaccessible wall, closed attic space, or the like, at least in conventional construction.
Consequently, it has to be accessible, just like an electrical box. I verified this with the manufacturer a while back.
There are a few things allowed in a mobile home or modular construction that aren't allowed in conventional construction. Integrated device/box devices come to mind.
There sure are occasional situations where having a magic connector would really make life easier. I've worked on a couple of conventional stick-framed houses that were cut in half, moved, and then re-assembled. Lot more work to run new romex to replace the cut stuff in the walls, but that's the way it went. Was able to use two j-boxes and a short length of romex in the attic and crawl space for cables there, where they'd remain accessible.
This accessibility requirement for the tap gizmo makes sense as the reason boxes have to remain accessible is because connections may fail, or need to be located.
Cliff
Code is pretty plain on this. Junction boxes have to be accessible
Yeeeeepppp! all connections must be acsessible...
Scribe once, cut once!