Just an FYI and discussion starter
Just returned from this weekends wood expo at a local lumber yard/mill.
Old time type place you can take logs strait from the forest and have them mill and dry or get any species of wood known, high end chisels and tools. They often have expos bringing in for instance Scott Phillips from PBS, and display everything wood from hand carvers and cnc machines to boat builders and fly rod pole makers. They bring in all the major factory reps from Jet, Kreg, Powermatic, Delta, Frued, Festool, etc… Great time.
Anyhow got talking to a bunch of reps and check out these brake downs of what your really buying.
1st off most of the brands do have vastly different lines of tools sold at the box stores over from actual tool dealers. so in effect dazzling prices at the depot are hiding underlying difference only exposed with careful research.
Some details I could have wrong from memory but I think are mostly correct.
Bosch “owns” Frued and just signed a 2yr. deal, Frued will still make the bits and blades and will continue the real Frued line but cheaper Frued blades/bits may start showing up at the box stores made by Bosch.
Bosh also is in with Hilti and makes their grinders but Hillti still makes their own hammers (demo/chipping/drill). They also own Roto zip and Dremel.
Believe it or not but every tradesmen’s favorite brand, Black and Decker owns, Dewallt, Porter cable, Delta, and somebody else too.
Ryobi has recently bought Milwaukee and is a conglomerate under some Chinese company that also makes Dirt Devil.
Don’t remember who owns Rigid but they of course sold their name usage to the Home Depot and it maybe Ryobi making those items, shopvacs, etc… But Rigid still makes the real tools like the industrial pipe threaders.
If anybody can add to this it’d be nice to have a complete run down chart developed of who’s who in the tool business anymore. Think you’ve got a Dewallt and it’s a Black and Decker.
My main thing is I don’t stick with brand loyalty, it’s not like their being loyal to us. Which is why they maintain separate “brands” thinking it’s like Ford and Chevy guys. I just want a strait forward representation of what you are, and don’t mind paying for what works, if it works.
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I used to give a hoot about these things, but the past 10 yrs or so, it seems like nearly everyone has been bought, merged, absorbed, sold multiple times. It's not just tool companies either. Remember Chrysler/Benz, Ford/Volvo, etc. Heck, Chlorox owns the brand "Burts Bees", Dannon owns Stoneyfield Yogurt and Hagn Daz (or is it Nestles?) owns Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream. You'd probably be shocked if you knew who actually owns most of the "natural" and "organic" labeled food products (many are owned by the big food conglomerates like Con Agra and the like). My appliance guy told me that there's only something like 2 or 3 companys that make ALL the major appliances.
By the time you figure out who really "owns" whatever product you are thinking of buying, it'll probably be sold again, or will be within a few years of you purchasing it.
Like you suggest, I'm done with brand loyalty. If I need a tool, I'll try to find a recent tool review, but won't bother if the review is more than a year or so old. Generally, I'll pick up and handle a few floor models. If they feel right in my hand, and appear to have decent fit and finish, and I've at least heard of the company, I'll usually buy it.
I generally exercise reasonable care and maintenance of all my tools, and so far have had few disappointments. IMO, trying to figure out which brand of tool motors have metal vs. plastic gears, good bearings vs. cheap ones, etc would be an exercise in futility. I believe that you get what you pay for. Guess what, a $39 recipricating saw from HF won't last as long as any other brand that cost $199, imagine that!
I avoid Chinese knockoffs of anything, although it seems that many of the "brand name" tools are manufactured in China anyway (though many are not).
Yeah, it's interesting to learn all the manufacturing factoids about who owns whom, but I'm not going to waste more than 20 minutes researching anything that costs less than $500 (which pretty much covers most of the tools and machines in my truck).
It's an interesting topic, but from the looks of the tools I see collecting dust in my client's basement and garage "workshops" the majority of American consumers wouldn't know a good tool from a POS anyway, which is pretty much on par with their knowledge of construction practices in general. But that's been covered in other threads...
from the looks of the tools I see collecting dust in my client's basement and garage "workshops" the majority of American consumers wouldn't know a good tool from a POS anyway, which is pretty much on par with their knowledge of construction practices in general
that's a pretty funny line right there!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
"It's an interesting topic, but from the looks of the tools I see collecting dust in my client's basement and garage "workshops"
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Sorry ;o) couldn't help myself.
Jeff
"You'd probably be shocked if you knew who actually owns most of the "natural" and "organic" labeled food products (many are owned by the big food conglomerates like Con Agra and the like)."
Multi-nationals jumped into the natural food market as soon as they saw the numbers. Their products are usually referred to "industrial organic", and unlike the small farm stuff tests often show it to be nutritionally inferior to regularly grown food."
Hi ncproperties,
I've had DeWallt tools trash out due to tiny 3 cent thin "plastic" cooling fans multiple times under warranty only to have a friend give me a Black & Decker piece of cheap that's still running great.
I pay for top quality tools that I know I'll be using over and over but I buy dirt cheap Chinese knock offs in place of renting for one time use. About the same price and I own it if I happen to ever need one again. I've got a massive Chicago 1/2" hammer drill for $40 that the bearings make more noise than a 747. I've used it 3 times and it still makes great jet engine noise. The rental on a top brand unit was $34. By the time I added in the fuel to return it to the store and the time involved....the $40 Chicago would have still been a bargain even if it had quit that first day.
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ain. I've got a massive Chicago 1/2" hammer drill for $40 that the bearings make more noise than a 747
Heard/saw a guy using a big orange HF plunge router.
I was thinking when it explodes in his hands it's gonna hurt.
How could anything sound like that and last longer than 3 minutes?
Joe H
Hi Joe,
I was thinking when it explodes in his hands it's gonna hurt.
heheh as for my hammer drill, I have no fear of explosion, although I'm wondering when it'll lock up and "pull" me off the ladder......I actually bought it because of a good friend....his FIL gave him one for Christmas and he used it one day to drill 4" holes in some 2x12's.....when I needed to do similiar, it was borrow his....I could have but don't like to use other peoples tools, I could have rented but instead bought one just like his....even the same noise came with mine that his has <grin>
How could anything sound like that and last longer than 3 minutes?
I remember my first skateboard.....open bearings...made all sorts of racket as compaired to sealed bearings....but I probably put 100k miles on it....maybe less...but a bunch and never wore them out.
Also reminds me of dad's volkswagon beetle.....he was told if he found a used one that purred like a kitten to avoid it like the plague.....he bought the noisiest, rattlingest thing you could find......drove it for many years.....sold it to my uncle who drove it just as many years then sold it and I actually saw it about 2 years ago visiting mom & dad.....we were out for dinner and passed by in the other lane......how did I know it was the same one?....the "only" thing other than changing oil and puttin' gas in that dad did was to paint it himself.....between the "colors" and style, there is not another in the world......
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Bought a cab over semi truck in 75, powered by a Detroit Diesel 238 in line six. The guy in the shop said " If it doesn't leak any oil, bring it back and we'll fix it."
Most of that is not really accurate, but the main point is true.
For instance, it is not B&D that owns those other brands you named, but a parent corporation owns each of them separately. A DW is NOT a B&D. They have their own engineering and R&D dept.
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Actually, Black and Decker is the corp that owns Dewalt. Bought DW in 1960.
And bought Porter Cable and Delta in 2004.
You actually need to update your history book.They bought the name and ended up mothballing the company. The DW of today is all new. New people, new idea, new structure.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I sold my B and D shares recently anyway.
But I'm not sure what your point is - the name of the corp that owns Dewalt, Porter Cable, and Delta is Black and Decker Corporation.
Edited 9/15/2009 1:42 pm ET by HammerHarry
My point was that there is a lot of misinformation out there about who owns what. But the bottom line for us is still the same - that the tools are not still the same thing we might expect based on name only that we could depend on thirty years ago.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yes, they haven't subscribed to the GM school, where you take the same product and slap 5 different labels on it, and try to convince people that there's a substantial difference.
They are still keeping the product development separate, and aiming at different market segments.
The same trends are in every business - companies buy up their competitors, and keep the brand names so people don't realize they are essentially the same company.
And we all know how well that worked for GM!!
That's the one I do know for sure because it blew me away. Strait from the factory reps mouth. Sure all 4 are separate and producing "independently" but one company owns them and they keep the separate lines so they can keep selling PC to PC guys and DW to DW guys. The rep did say that relationship is getting more cohesive as their relizing the cost in overhead of having 4 companies. What will most likely happen as I understood it is Dewallt won't make routers anymore and will carry the cordless side of stuff, and the chop saws may be left to them. Say Delta will produce band saws and table saws. Basically what each brand is known for will carry the slack of the other brands and may even package them for the others but will still be made only by one or the other. I'm telling ya it was kinda funny that three booths where set up in one corner together of a tent and it was one guy as the rep running back and forth for all three. I do know the Ryobi and Milwaukee part for sure, and the Bosch stuff was accurate and the above. As I was trying to pick out a new router I spent the bulk of my time talking with the PC and Bosch reps.
Maybe I will just start buying more chinese stuff from Harbour Frieght, you know directly, and eliminate the middle man! It is just a sign of the times, modern stuff sux period. We buy what they sell us.
Like Piffin said by the time you track it down as to who really made it youre out of energy. Just pick up the tool and pray it gets the job done and if it was expensive, pray harder. Well, with some exceptions like Festools.
Pretty soon we are all going to be searching ebay for those good old heavy PC and black and decker metal tools like our grandfathers had. They will still be running great.
I was in a pawn shop the other day, and was looking thru a pile of wrenches, mostly pipe. Plenty of chinese, some ridgid, and then at the bottom of the pile there was this beautiful little ten inch pipewrench that was constructed so finely with so much grace in its lines that I immediatly reached out for it. The handle said Dunlap. The kind witht the flat metal springs front and back. It still had its original paint on the non wear surfaces. I didn't buy it, and I should have, I might still.
My point is that in our race for a buck society we have lost so much in terms of craftsmanship in our manufacturing. We have lost the pride of the made in the USA label, in the graceful lines of a well designed product, and the spareness of form following function that that little wrench beamed forth. There was no gargantuan form typicall of the fatmax line, no extra doodads, geegaws and thingamajiggies. Just an honest responsible wrench, which I should have adopted that day, and I am kicking myself for putting it down.
Webby
Edited 9/15/2009 7:25 pm ET by webby
I have a number of Dunlap tools that my father and grandfather bought. You might be interested to know that today the name brand for these products would be "Companion". YUP! It was Sear's cheaper brand. The good products called "Craftsman".
Oh, well thats good to know.
However I was mainly speaking to the asthetic detailing in the manufacture of the wrench. You wouldnt see that level of detail in the tools of today. The crisp line around the handle and moveable jaw, the difference in the lines and the level of detail for example in a 65 mustang and a 2009 mustang. One has a finer level of detail and one has a cast, blocky and monolithic detailing. One is a classic, the other is just a mustang.
Webby
Edited 9/16/2009 6:09 pm ET by webby
Well, actually that was the point. The "cheap", "second class" tools seem to be better than the good ones of today.
Yeah, I think your right, I try to buy good tools but in a pinch the HF tools seem to work just as well if not better.Webby
Some of the best wrenches and other various hand tools ever made I've seen along the lines as you describe, I saw in a ship wreak museum in Key West. Over 150yrs old, and recovered from the bottom of the ocean. I'll bet would still out perform any modern tool no matter the price tag or manufacture.
Cool, I hope to make it to the keys oned of these days.
Edited 9/19/2009 2:18 pm ET by webby
"I do know the Ryobi and Milwaukee part for sure, "That is not right either.TTI (Techtronic Industries) is the company that bought Milwaukee.The also own AEG, Stiletto, Homelite, Hoover.They don't own Ryobi either. They license the name, I think for all areas outside Japan.Emerson still owns Rigid and has a partnership with TTI for the non-plumbing tools. And the last that I heard Emerson still made the wet/dry vacs for sale as Rigid and also the Craftsman.And TTI does sub-contract work for Boosch. Then that was reported it was not clear what they did. Might have been some parts or it might have just been prototype work..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
More on the subject.
http://www.johnmills.net/work/history.html
Not exactly. That is furnaces/AC. But the names and/or companies being bought and sold and dead names being resurrected is the similar..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
IMERC said he's now partial to Firestorm drills.
*SNORK*.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
you be snorting too much of that rot dust...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"