about 2 yrs ago I installed a kitchen for a kitchen showroom.
my end of the job went great, customer loved me and her kitchen.
she nor I “loved” the project manager.
guy has no clue, lied, and was bad a placing blame, as he was a bad lier too.
one of the many problems … someone … misordered the vent hood.
after the thrid one they gave me didn’t fit … the customer stood there and started to cry. So … I decided time to over step my bounds, I called the appliance store direct, talked to the salesmen, who I’ve worked with in passing before. He didn’t know me, I didn’t know him, but we’ve been involved on the same projects thru the years.
anyways, laid it out for him, he said he’d check to see what he could do.
The PM shows up maybe 15 minutes later, we’re all standing in the kitchen as he’s telling the customer that the appliance salesman “still” hasn’t returned any of his calls … blah blah blah.
and my phone rings … it’s the appliance salesman. He’s tracked down a vent that will fit … and he’ll 2 day air ship it free of charge … and it’s more expensive … but seeing as how she just bought a kitchen fulla new appliances .. of course her bill won’t change. Problem solved .. one phone call.
job wraps aside from some missing … PM ordered … trim.
not gonna be in for 4 to 6 weeks , I start the next job. Tell customer I’ll be back when the trim is in, and she goes on a 4 week vacation.
almost 4 weeks to the day … I get a call from the PM. Trim is here, they’re back yesterday … so go in tomorrow and finish.
Only one problem … that was my first call to “keep me posted” … I had a weeks worth of concrete, plumbing and electrical subs to help that whole week.
Tell him Can’t be there till next week, at the earliest.
so he starts with the yelling. I hand up … and call the company owner direct.
Nicely tell her I had no calls, so I kept scheduling work … and now I can’t jump.
if the customer wants it done ASAP … which … she probably does … they’d better find someone else to jump … as I really can’t.
also tell her … we had numerous problems on this install … and 99% of them come down to her PM. I realize at the moment she’d have to stand behind her man and most likely never hire me again … but after time and a million more complaints, and she fires him … I’d be happy to work with her again.
that was 2 yrs ago. And they’ve been running an ad for an installer sub pretty regular since. And each time I see their ad, I email. Keep it simple, Hi, It’s me, If yer looking I’d be happy to bid from prints. Have emailed maybe 4 times, not one reply back.
So … 2 weekends ago … saw their ad in the Sun paper. Emailed again.
then, had a buddy, a kitchen installer, get into a fight with the guy he’s subbing from and quit. So I tell him … Hey, try this place … just don’t saw U know me.
He interviewed today. Got a voicemail … went great.
The PM I dealt with isn’t there anymore. And for some reason he brought up my name … and “they love Mr Buck” … “he was a great guy” … “real problem solver”
and they realize all the problems … in the end … were the fault of the PM.
and the customer told them the real story behind the working vent.
but … of course … after all that went bad … and the fact I didn’t run up for the trim install … they can’t work with me again!
oh well. I knew the hated me … at least now I know they also love me too?
funny part … guy who I sent in … had a big blow out with another showroom he’d worked with for years … after he left … I went in and talked to the owner, who I’ve known for years … he said he’ll probably have some work to feed me … and … if I wanted to bring in my buddy, who he just fired … that’d be fine with him.
he thot he did nice work … he just couldn’t “work with” him.
but he’d not mind one bit if he sub’d to me and I sub’d to him
guess he hates him and loves his work too?
Just another day in the business …
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Replies
Don't cha just love office politics?
I was once "fired" from a job (job was completed but he tried unsuccessfully to jerk me around on the final bill) only to recommended to three really great customers by the guy who fired me. Go figure, eh?
Also called me back for more work but I was all booked up.
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Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.net
See some of my work at TedsCarpentry.com
told my buddy to give them a shot as I can't really say anything bad about the owners ... really nice lady ... just got a bit in over her head with her first "big fancy kitchen" ...
they also paid in full and paid quick. So not much to complain about.
just a little odd.
my first meeting I walked thru the detailed prints.
I said "depending ... 6 to 8 weeks"
their designer was guessing 6 ... so I knew I was right on the money.
told them I'd price it at 7 weeks ... wrote up a contract and we signed.
8 weeks after the start date ... I finished.
first day I found a minor structural problem they all over looked ... had the company call my PE, he came up with a fix and we were off and building.
so ... my 7 weeks plus the one added ... was right on schedule and money.
at the end ... after they paid ... I got called and asked to come into the office.
they questioned me about the time and money.
I actually sat there ... and had them walk thru my original contract.
which ... I nailed ... right on the money.
they still wanted to know "why not 6 weeks?"
just said ... "why?"
that was the start of the weirdness ... I never had to explain why I met a contract and deadline before ... never said it ... but kept thinking ...
"uuhhh ... cause I said so in the first place?"
these are the things I think of when someone asks about becoming a specialized sub and/or working for designers! It's a whole 'nother mindset ... really can't understand their thinking.
but ... even if they're not gonna call me back ... at least my good(?) name got my buddy's foot in the door! Told him our new plan ... he brings me back in on all their work with him ... and I bring him back in on all my work with his old boss.
we'll be a step removed but right back where we all were 2 years ago!
might work ... his old boss is more business ... these kitchen people are more designer minded .... he's more of a hippie and I'm more ... uh .. me.
so things will probably run smooth.
I've also been "fired" .... and asked back for more work. Something similar ... actually got into an argument with a guy and pretty much forced him to pay me what he owed ... he's yelling and threatening ... cuts me the check ... I say it better clear!
as I'm about to storm out the door ... he says ... well now yer paid ... we have an addition coming up I'd like you to bid!
just told him I'd wait for his check to clear then we'd talk about it.
check cleared ... and I never went back to talk.
it's a pretty weird world we work in.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I think that's just the way some people do business. Some act like that to save a buck, while others just react negatively when dealing with money. --------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Yup.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Interesting dialogue Jeff. I have a feeling the stubborn nature of independent contractors is wreaking havoc on the ability to maintain a logical set of relationship guidelines. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
could be.
I'm as stubborn as they come.
especially when it comes to doing the work in the correct order.
also not big on lies.
big lies or small lies.
like that job I mentioned. They called and I bid.
set bid price.
said it'd take 6 to 8 weeks, so I'll bid it at 7.
their designer thot 4 to 6 weeks. At the very least ... we "agreed" on 6.
so ... they told the customer ...
it was gonna be a 4 week job max!
when your own people say 4 to 6.
and the sub who's gonna do the work is billing for 7.
why on earth would you say 4?
I know ... because it's easier to lie and hope you don't lose the job than it is to sell yourself and your company and be the one place out there that tells the truth.
6 weeks.
OK .. I lied. I do lie.
in that case ... I would have "sold it" as an 8 week job. Then ... when done in 7 with the additional work ... I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Luckily in that particular case ... this was the HO's third major kitchen remodel.
very first day ... she asked ... how much longer than 4 weeks do U think this will take?
that said ...
"the stubborn nature of independent contractors is wreaking havoc on the ability to maintain a logical set of relationship guidelines."
go for it. Explain your thoughts.
You are most likely right. I've said before and will always say ...
I can be difficult to work with.
doing something to a "logical set of relationship guidelines." drives me nuts if it gets in the way of making a project move along like it should.
I'd bet money those people hated the fact I called the salesguy and got results on the very first phone call. I just happened to know which Q's to ask and how to ask them. The sales guy may very well have been ducking the PM, as the PM as a major jerk aside from being an idiot. Not the kinda guy anyone wants to help.
I found out later, the HO's husband, I worked 100% around the wife, had called in and told the company owner he was gonna hold back a certain portion of the final bill.
He was gonna guess at the overhead priced in to cover the PM's pay, and not pay that portion ... as his wife and "the subs" had to do the PM's job time and time again.
And he was right. She did tons of leg work to pick up his slack. I had the vent deal and beam issues ... and both the plumber and electrician worked overtime to bail them out.
If there had been a direct pecking line, the job never would got done and the customers woulda sued. Instead ... the HO's ended up with a beautiful kitchen, all the mechanicals worked and the K&B place got paid in full.
Gotta tell ya ... it's actually fun talking about all this 2 years later!
Very little dog in this fight.
and now I know ... they might not like me ... but can't say anything bad about my work. I'm cool with that. That's about the best reference U can get!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I've been in situations similar to what you describe and I can't say that I had the answers when I was involved. From the outside looking in, and, because I'm in my fifties now, I have a different perspective. It's obvious that the problem is the PM. In my case, the problem was the site superintendents. Or it was me. Or a combination...as in...oil and water don't mix. Looking back, I know I didn't make the best choices leaving the builder when the "wrong" superintendent showed up or took over. In hindsight, I knew I was going to leave because of the superintendent, so I should have made my exit on my terms and thus preserved the relationship with the superintendent's company. That type of exit might be a bitter pill for me to swallow and might involve doing some things that I wouldn't normally do, but in the interest of long term relationships with the real money guy, it probably would have served my long term interests. Or maybe not. In your case, its obvious that the PM is not doing his job or incompetent or both. At some point, you probably figured out that you weren't going to do anymore work for him. If you apply the lessons I learned, then your exit would involve finishing up the last job, while making the PM and company look good and servicing the job in a timely manner which sounds impossible in a one man company given your other commitments. I wouldn't take that bet about them hating you for taking care of business in that one phone call. It isn't the phone call that made them angry, it was the way in which you showed them up, making the call in front of the customer, which clearly demonstrated how incompetent the company, via the PM, was. Imagine how thankful they would have been if you had privately and quietly said the the PM "I think I know someone over at that supply house who might be able to fix this problem. Would you mind if I gave him a call on your behalf?". The client probably used your call in later arguments about the companies competency. The company not only had to endure the humiliation of the mistake but also had to listen to the client reaming them and telling them that it was simple because you proved it. A remodeling company is really a collection of skilled people like you, all with different networks of people and different areas of expertise. When everyone contributes their best, at the expense of their own personal wants and needs, the company benefits and flourishes. That is a rarity in the industry as I see it. In fact, I've always thought that most of the construction industry was like very similar to a giant coffee klutch....where there are lots of grumpy people yapping away and gossiping about anything and everything. That's been my experience. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Okay...the scheduling thing.It appears that the company didn't really want to work with your schedule. Instead of finding someone else, they chose you, even though you told them 6 wks. They wanted 4 because that's what they told the client. Was four weeks possible? I don't know. I don't know what the job entailed. Logically, if you worked with a partner every day, your 6 weeks would get cut in half and the job would be done in three. Maybe that's what the company really desires. From my GC chair, I know that's what I would prefer. Also from my GC chair, if I had to choose between a one man shop and a two man shop with equal credentials, I'd choose the two man shop because of the service issues. I know a one man shop can/will get tied down in critical installations and not be able to pull off for a simple one hour service call. That might have been the case when you couldn't get back for a week, even though they didn't give you enough warning. So, it's possible that the company actually likes your work, likes you, and is willing to overlook that one job, if you peeved them...but...since your typical work schedule takes twice as long as their business model, they keep looking for other options. In my day, I also refused to balloon up my crew. I reasoned that I could keep a tighter lid on quality and maximize my profits by staying small and tight. I usually worked onsite with three other carpenters. I lost a lot of work because the builders wanted the houses in two weeks instead of the three I usually took. It wasn't personal..it was business. I chose my business model, they chose theirs. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
gotta love the old ...
" that ### hole will NEVER, I repeat NEVER, work here again...
...well...not till we need him."
Makes me remember some of the reasons why I ended up hating that business.
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"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
keeps reminding me!
just makes me laugh ... and shake my head ...
and drink beer.
luckily ... I like beer.
I think alot of the problems come from the fact alot of the K and B showrooms are started by people who don't have a business background ... have worked for a number of places where a designer thot ... "how hard can it be?"
they draw a coupla kitchens ... things go OK ... and bang! They're in business for themselves. Alot of place are also family businesses. Parents get it up and running ...
kids fail at a coupla other careers and come back to the family biz ...
and now they're kings and queens of their own little worlds.
most never worked a real day in their lives ... but they got all the answers.
like one designer actually told me once ...
"mistakes don't happen in the office ... they happen in the field , that's where we lose money every day"
and he was serious.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Don't get ME started on worthless lying Fuggup PM's...And the bosses who don't want to admit THEY hired the wrong dillweed for the job...and K&B "designers" rrrrrrrrrrr.....actually I work with a Good K&B showroom now...so they are out there!Sounds like you and your bud got a good system, it's just pathetic that the knowitalls have to have everyone play their little BS game to get the same stuff done as before...Bottoms up dude!.
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
mmm...beer....
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"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
My brother-in-law is a free lance computer programmer. He was working on contract for a Company. They lay off the people who used the data he produced in order to save money.
My BIL points out there is no need to continue with his contract if there is nobody to use his data.
They hire the same people as contractors. For more money.
They get fired on Mon. Back at work on Thursday.
What a world.
yep and the corporation can now report a higher revenue/employee(FTE).TFB (Bill)
I wondered how it was going to look good on someone's yearly evaluation.
I've been on and off with a kitchen place near me. they always give me no notice, lie about the amount of work that needs to be done just so I would do it. always turns ot to be more which messes up the schedule. and when I take the side of homeowner advocate they get upset. then they don't call for a long time. then they out of the blue ask me to do an install. guess they are desperate at that point. I think kitchens would be great without the showroom staff to ge in the way.
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
http://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
I'm getting flashbacks from my old job as PM. Not - I should say - not the part about the PM being a lying incompetent. ;-) I mean the rest of it.
My old boss said "The best installer is a mute. They shouldn't say anything - to anyone." Hmm.
And both the designers had the concept that since I was in charge of scheduling, and they were in charge of me, they could make any changes they wanted and it was up to me to make the installer jump through hoops to make it work.
No need to give the installer any warning if times are slow ahead, either, when he's working exclusively for them. Just "Nothing next month. Sorry." :P
There's some kind of flaw in the system. With sales and design combined, the designers are selling fantasy. The reality can only turn out more messy, slower, and more awkward - even if the installation goes smoothly from the perspective of the installer.
Edited 6/10/2008 7:48 am ET by Biff_Loman
"My old boss said "The best installer is a mute. They shouldn't say anything - to anyone." Hmm."I've got an installer onsite now that needs to think about being mute as a skill. He's doing his last job for me because he can't stop yapping. I think my advice to his would be "If you are a pro: act like it. I don't want to hear you explain it to me..just show me with results." Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
all very true.
see ... 2 years later and I can admit it!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa