How do you guys keep the end of studs,plates,joists,etc from splitting and cracking? I just finished putting up the last of my joists and some have already cracked on the edges. This was fresh lumber not something that had been sitting out. Is it normal? Do nail guns help from splitting the wood? I might go out and buy one since i’ll be doing the rafters next, I don’t want to be toe nailing and having my rafters start splitting .
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Replies
Toenail by hand, and blunt the nail points with your hammer.
Thanks Ken. I tried that but they still crack.
Blownonfuel.
Yes! nail guns help a lot. They have a plastic coating on the nail that the friction of installing acts as a lubricant on insertion and cools to act as a glue once installed..
IF you are going to buy a nail gun please get a decent one.. some nail guns like Porter Cable are more like nail starters than Guns.. If you buy a Bostich lubricate the heck out of the nail slide with WD40 for the first few sticks of nails.. Hitachi seems to a be a brand that is pretty reliable and durable.. Well accepted by most contractors.. But this whole subject tends to be a Ford versis Chevy debate..
I choose Bostich framming nailer because it hits with 1000 pounds of impact versis 880 for everybody else.. (no cranking up the compressor isn't recommended) and I nail hardwoods rather than pine..
It also helps to use the correct size nail for the task.
Frenchy, do I have to look for anything specific that tells me the gun is for framing? I know they make guns for trim and stuff so i don't want to get the wrong one.
The size of nails it will holds will tell you. You'll want to be able to handle up to 12 P (.131) nails 3 &1/4 inch long..
framing nail guns can handle smaller nails But they all have heads on them. trim nailers don't have heads.. (they do, but they are tiny heads)
Now some communities require full headed nails, most don't. A nail gun with a clipped head is normal because it can carry more nails between reloads.
Whatever nail gun you buy make sure nails are readily available for it.. Some nail guns require nails which you can only buy from the dealer who sells that nail gun.. Bostich and Hitachi are two brands that I see nails readily available for nearly everyplace I've looked..
Thanks Frenchy. I'll be heading to the big box store tonight.
I think he meant to say 16d (16 penny) instaed of 12 P.
CRF,Frenchy is correct on this. 3-1/4" is a 12d nail. 3-1/2" is 16d nail. This is uniform nomenclature for collated nails.For some odd reason, hand driven nails are sold at 3-1/4" as *16d sinkers*, I think the idea is that they are as fat as a 16 but as long as a 12. But with common and box nails, the lengths are called out the same as the gun nails. This sizing standard goes back to before Piffin was born, you know, sometime in the old kingdom.Bill
" But this whole subject tends to be a Ford versis Chevy debate.."Ford and Chevy are making nail guns now? I guess truck sales are worse than I thought.
some nail guns like Porter Cable are more like nail starters than Guns
Funny.
When we work on old houses (almost always) with really hard wood thats what we always call our gas powered Paslodes.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
MSA1
That's why I bought the Bostich.
all other nail guns hit with 880 pounds The Bostich hit's with 1000 pounds. Since I built my home with hardwood I needed the extra to sink those big 16P nails..
A really sharp guy who had a truck full of Hitachi Nailers taught me that.
I dont frame enough to warrant a compressor, and a new gun. I have two Paslodes and actually have done a fair amount of framing with them.
Its just when we get into these old houses, you have to watch that the gun doesnt bounce off the wood.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
MSA1
Oh I am well aware of how hard old wood can be.. I've got old growth douglas Fir from my old house..
Kinda fun watching the nail gun just bounce off the wood.
At least the first four huundred times anyway.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
I'm visualizing that:
<PACK!><Thud>
"ow"
<PACK!><Thud>
"Ow"
<PACK!><Thud>
"OW!"Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
I don't feel it's healthy to keep your faults bottled up inside me.
MSA1
My Bostich has a really heavy impact and because it's magnesium it's really light. When I sink the big nails in dried ash or Oak It's a two hands and lean into it kinda deal..
I have left some nails proud on occasion when I wimped out or wasn't holding it solidly in place and then I found the chance of finish nailing it that last 1/2 inch or so is near zero 95% of the time the nail will fold over. MY best chance has turned out to be a fist mall and I get one shot at it..
Commons are quite a bit thicker than gun-nails, length for length. A 3½" clipped-head framer is .120" in diameter--five thou less than an eighth of an inch. But a 3½" common measures a full 3/16" (.1875"). That's a big difference.
If you don't get a nail gun, you might want to look into using what are called 'box' nails. These are almost as slim as an air nail--a 4" box nail measures 11/128" (.148"), and most are coated with phosphate which helps prevent corrosion and makes them slide in more easily.
BTW, the reason for blunting the tip of a nail to prevent wood splitting is that a blunt nail will tear its way through the wood, making a hole for itself as you pound it in. But a sharp one slides between the wood fibres and pushes them apart, so if it's too fat or too close to the end of the piece of lumber, the wood will split.
Note that local and national building codes can specify the dimensions of nails used for structural work. And as Frenchy mentioned, some jurisdictions don't permit the use of clipped head air nails, but require full-round-head nails. These two different types cannot be shot from the same gun.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Thanks Dino. I think i'm going to invest in a gun. I really need to get this addition roofed before the rains come.
The top framing guns are Senco, Paslode, and Bostitch. There's a lot of others but if you look in ten randomly selected Knaak boxes those are the brands you'll find most often, I think. They're all good; like French said there's a lotta brand loyalty so you'll get some guys who love Senco who will say Bostitch is craapola and vice versa. You're gonna have to decide for yourself.
But Senco does have the most balls, heh, heh, heh....
BTW, Porter Cable made an FRH coil framer a while ago which was deadly dangerous; I forget the number but it double-fired a lot. One of my clients owned one and I wound up using it for a morning once while the second carp used my Paslode. The PC scared me so bad that at lunch break I drove 10 miles back to my shop to pick up my old Senco III.
Maybe somebody else remembers the model number of that PC unit so you can avoid it.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Thanks Dino but I just got back from buying the Hitachi NR83A2 (S). I hope it works well.
now i see your problem,no wonder you had to buy nail gun. when you hit your thumb with a waffle head correctly,it won't leave waffle marks. it peels the skin clean off,so you will have a new surface in about 3 weeks. so be a man and swing that hammer harder.if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
I'll give it a whack. No pun intended. LOL!!!
blownonfuel
That should do you well, I have two Hitachi's myself.. the N 5008AC and the NT65A both are excellant..
Frenchy they did not have any lube for the Hitachi in stock at the big box store. Can I use another brand of lube?
Blownonfuel
I've always used my Bostich lube on all my nail guns. I'd guess any brand of nail gun lube will work.
Dinosaur
I know there are a lot of Senco guns out there but the reason has more to do with their marketing than the guns themselves..
Around here they give a gun away if you buy a pallet of nails. Since the nails are a customer expense. The price isn't important.. On top of that their reps are around all the time and any gun that has a problem is promptly replaced free while yours is sent in for overhaul.. (free)
Finally with regard the Senco gun having more "Balls" the last I looked they hit with the same 880 pounds of force others hit with only the Bostich hit with 1000 pounds of force.. (and that only the N88WW)
Bostitch makes decent guns; I've rented them on occasion when I needed a third or fourth gun on a job. But I've got a leftover half box of Senco 2¼" concrete nails in the shop, and I'll betcha a mug of any beer ya like yer Bostitch won't drive 'em home through a 2x plate into a cured slab.
My new Paslode won't do it; the whole gun just slams back at me hard when the nail hits the slab...and the nail stops dead and sits ¾" proud. Even my old Senco III has a bit of trouble with them if I gotta drive more than a few, but she is a bit long in the tooth, and could probably do with a rebuild.
But my BIL's Senco-IV actually countersinks those puppies one after another as fast as I can pull the trigger. We used to call it The Beast....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
SN4, now there is a nailgun to be proud of. I kind of wish I had one for remodels full of petrified framing.Bill
You said it. I wish I still had the IV, too, but my BIL only loaned it to me when I built my own place in '95; he would not sell it no matter how much I begged and whined....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I've sunk the largest nail My Bostich will handle clear into an ash beam.. every other nail gun I've used left it proud by as much as a 1/2 inch.. True I never used your gun but According to the specs I read it wouldn't improve on that..
Well I don't know about more balls. But Senco does have the most balls, heh, heh, heh....But my $99.00 Senco 602 Refurb unit from amazon counter sinks everything real deep running at 100 PSI. Forgot to turn down the regulator on a fence build recently and drove tthe 36 ringshanks right on through teh 5/8" cedar.ML
MSLiechty
Cedar? How much harder than marshmellow is that? <grin>
About the same, probably coloser to cotton balls, but a little more dense though!ML
...and drove tthe 36 ringshanks right on through teh 5/8" cedar.
How big was the 'exit wound'?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
should have been 6d ringshanks.
Yeah. A gun that shoots 36d nails would probably take out a Hummer....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
But that would be cool to witness !
Better hope the Taliban don't find out about those....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dinosaur,I know you live in Canada where things may be different sizes. Here in the USA, 12d and 16d gun nails are typically .131" shanks, and gun 8d's are .120" shanks. Collated commons are thicker.Bill
That actually surprises me a bit; the gun nails I use are Paslode clipped head/paper-tape ("ProStrip"). I measured the diameters with my caliper but it was printed on the box as well. And I just went downstairs to check to see if I'd goofed. But I didn't.
The 2¨ü" sheathing/strapping nails are .113"; the 3¨ö" framers are .120". Wonder why the big diff between here and there?
BTW, we haven't used penny designations up here for at least 25 years. By now I have trouble remembering what they were, actually. But I seem to remember my dad telling me the 'penny' number was the price of 100 nails of any particular size. And that the abbreviation for 'penny' is 'd' because that's the abbreviation for pence in England (2s6d=2 shillings and sixpence).
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Edited 10/5/2008 12:50 am ET by Dinosaur
Oops! I am the one who goofed. I just measured and you are correct. I was confounding the 16d box hand-drive (.131") with the 12 and 16 gun-drives (.120"). The 8d guns are .113 here, too. WHEW!Sorry about that.Bill
That's okay; just don't let it happen again.... ;o)
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Could it be that your wood is just experiencing "checking"? This is cracks and splits in the wood caused by drying out too fast. This can be very prominent on wider boards. I see you are in Texas... is it pretty dry by you?
The way to take care of this is by letting your greenwood dry for a few days, stacked, spaced 3/4" in all directions, and covered, out of the wind. I coat the end grains with either primer or copper napthalate to keep them from drying out faster than the center of the boards. Keepingthem weighted down will help them dry straight too.
You can use a cheap moisture meter ($9 at Harbor Freight) to check when they get about the same level.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
I don't feel it's healthy to keep your faults bottled up inside me.
You may very well be right Paul. Everything down here is cracking from the heat and lack of moisture. It is very very dry here right now. I think i'll invest in a gun anyway, I need to get this addition closed in asap.
blownonfuel
Careful!
nailguns are almost as powerful an addiction as racing is.. you will be so happy with your purchase that you'll start to use it for everything.. (untill you get to the trim) at which point you will be off to buy a trim nailer.. then comes the pin nailer and palm nailer and suddenly you have 7 or 8 nail guns and realize you can't live without any of them..
Your fingers and thumb will stop hurting from being hit with a hammer. you'll get things done so much faster you'll wonder what other secrets have the carpenters been keeping from you. You'll buy a compound miter saw and start to do fine woodworking.
Suddenly you'll look at your house and wish it were more unique, more you..
You'll stumble upon a source for wood at an astonishingly cheap price and you are now into full blown addiction!
Hello my name is Frenchy and I'm a woodaholic..
LOL!! Well Frenchy I can't argue with you on that, as an ex autotech I know about the addictions when it comes to tools. I'll miss the blood blisters and waffle marks on my fingers though.
go look at the results of such addiction. You can find it at 85891.1 & 94941.1.
You'd think your wife would appreciate getting a nice new house but that doesn't happen.. Comments about the time it takes etc.. seem to prevail..
Actually Frenchy I am blessed with a wonderful wife. The house we live in is a very small house, hence the addition, but she is very grateful for what we have and the addition we are adding.
Man that's beautiful.
Hey you guys, get a room.Actually it's nice to see the enthusiasm for building passed around among us DIY's with the help of our foundation of pro's here.
MGMaxwell
Yeh. but I can sure understand the viewpoint of the pros who do this for a living..
I mean we talk prices they can't possibly duplicate and some get the idea that should be the price they pay..
Well there should be some sort of disclaimer for their benefit since they are so kind as to come here and offer help and advice free.
I mean I spent a mere fraction of what a pro estimated it would cost to build my place. That sure doesn't mean that anybody could build it for that price.. Anybody except a dedicated do-it-yourselfer..
thank you..
Are you end nailing stud walls? Just from the thread I get the idea that maybe you are toe nailing everything. That is likely stronger but rarely used framing a wall. I agree with all the comments regarding nail guns but I hand banged a lot of walls before getting a nailgun and compressor for a special remodel. Never went back to handbanging--even went to SS when the PT chemicals were changed from CCA. Then you find yourself getting things like crown staplers, brad nailers, and even doing a little texture spraying. So you need a bigger truck, more gas,etc.
Hangers go on everything else and nothing seems to split with those even using DD galvanized nails. TYR
Just from the thread I get the idea that maybe you are toe nailing everything. That is likely stronger but rarely used framing a wall.
Not true at all. I toenail studs every day.
Joe Carola
When you build a wall on the ground you toenail? Ive heard that in some regions inspectors want to toenail so they can see the nails, but not here and I always nail through the plates. I think toenailing is stronger but there is a little bit of an art to it, I see too much done improperly (too low, wrong angle ect) It dosent seem practicle to me to toenail when building walls on the ground though.
Split/checked lumber can be a hassle, but it's not really that big of a deal most of the time.I always glance at both ends to decide which needs cutting more, but I don't agonize about it.Also, I always buy at least 10-15% too much. That does a couple of things for me:1) I don't run out because of mis-cuts or mis-counts. That saves me unexpected extra trips back to the lumberyard.2) I automatically end up using a higher grade of lumber. Obviously, I'm going to use the best stuff first, and whatever is left over gets returned for credit.Yes, I'm guaranteed one extra trip back to the lumberyard at the end of the job. But since I know that from the get-go, it's priced in, and is no surprise. Sure, there are plenty of jobs I could estimate bang-on. But then Id have to inspect every board as it's loaded onto the truck, and that doesn't go over big at the yard. You're much better off just making a credit return at the end of the job.And if it would really be better if I threw in some blocking here, and maybe a row of blocking down that line there, I can pull the material straight from my cull pile. I'm more likely to blow it off if it means an extra, unexpected, trip back to the lumberyard.So I do a better job in the end.And in the end, the drywall covers up those inevitable splits anyway.AitchKay
So what part do you feel is untrue? Toenailing being stronger than end nailing or the statement that end nailing is a more predominate method of construction? Might be some regional preferences for toe tailing vs end nailing. I inspected some remodel work being done in NH for my uncle and found some real nice toe nailing. Was hand banged and few waffle heads in the lumber surrounding the nailing area.
Rim joists might be end nailed if the joist are supported by the foundation but hangers are usually required. Tyr
So what part do you feel is untrue?
When you said this.
Just from the thread I get the idea that maybe you are toe nailing everything. That is likely stronger but rarely used framing a wall.
I said, "Not true at all. I toenail studs every day". Meaning toenailing wall studs is done every day where I'm from.
Joe Carola
Thanks Tyr. I end nailed my walls with 16d coated sinker and toe nailed my joists.
ck at lowes,mine has the hitachi clearanced at 155.00.larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Thanks AOB, That's for a framing one?
yea,cant remember the number,but here it is on amazon http://www.amazon.com/Hitachi-NR90AE-2-Inch-Framing-Nailer/dp/B000E39RMK/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1222912403&sr=8-1if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
I am not a pro so I tend to work slow because I'm not trying to make a living at carpentry. I don't like the ends of boards to split either so I usually take the time to predrill the hole and prefer to use deck screws instead of tonailing. Very seldom does it split, unless I am careless and screw in too far. As mentioned here already, you should be aware of the moisture level of the wood you are using, it seems the drier the wood, the more likely it's going to split.
I have a nail gun as well but tend to use it only when I have a lot of nailing to do, like wood siding. But I have watched siding people use hammers for wood siding because they say they prefer the look or are using a special nail. I like to use 14 and 16 gauge nail guns for cabinet work. I have never felt I could justify the cost of a heavier gauge nail gun because I wouldn't use it enough.
My father had a trick that worked quite effectively for him. If he had to nail near the end or side of a board he would blunt the nail and then rub the nail in his hair to get some scalp oil on it. Sounds silly, but it worked for him, especially in very hard wood.