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Ok kids, I have my contractor, Grant, aka SeeYou, and his contractor, and the HOME OWNER ( who might not understand the HO term, we use here) soon to be viewing this..so lets be nice and play in tune. We are replacing a box gutter in Lexington Ky ( we do alot of this). It is unusual in the fact that, the look outs, are ensconsed in a brick entabulature that is sandwiched between a wall top plate and a rafter bearing plate. These lookouts are cantileverd and often “programed” to allow slope to drain to the outlets. These are the first thing to rot/bug out when there is a leak, often funneling water in the wrong place, like inside. Over the bed or down the wall. I’d estimate that this house is circa 1900-1925? But I am not a good gage, being as I just moved here 3 yrs ago, and am not up to fluff on the exacts. Ok, barring my spelling and lack of being exact to others vernacular, I will attempt to essay this process, for your enjoy, and the persons who are involved, that are not wanting to scale our staging, and see for them selves ( Wink). Ms. Hussey, I did get your OK? |
Grant, I am sending you the pics, I can’t get them to upload.
Would you try?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Shooting rubber bands at the Moon
Replies
C'mon the suspense is killing us!
Me too...for some reason, I can't get an upload to stick.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Shooting rubber bands at the Moon
Let's see if I can...
What do you envision for the website you'll be creating(cross threading ) here?
Some for your own woodworking endeavors or the dailycopperwork jobs?
I've also got a domain name but haven't done the site either.
Back to this topic-you could put all the photos in a Shutterfly album then copy the link here for us all to view-like this one .http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=8cbsmrhqzaQ¬ag=1
Here ya go. This is a large single family residence in Downtown Lexington. I'd date it at 1880 or before, but I don't know for sure. We're tearing out the existing box/cornice gutters, rebuilding the interior structure (the cornice is metal and some of it will be replaced), and relining the gutters with copper.Pic oo5 shows a section after it has been demo'd. The lookouts and the gutter trough were essentially rotted away. Also, the plate that the lookouts rested on was gone at the corner causing the brick wall to collapse under the hip rafter. The other two pics show the start of the reconstruction. Most of the trough has been completed in this section. Duane will fill in the blanks, but I'm bending gutter pans today to be installed tomorrow. I'll ad some pics of that latter.Note: there's two sizes of two of the pics for dialup guys.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Grant, Are the lookouts what we see in pic 004?I'm trying to understand Sphere's description ("It is unusual in the fact that, the look outs, are ensconsed in a brick entabulature that is sandwiched between a wall top plate and a rafter bearing plate.")
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"It is unusual in the fact that, the look outs, are ensconsed in a brick entabulature that is sandwiched between a wall top plate and a rafter bearing plate.")It's actually not as unusual as I would like. I've rebuilt this design numerous times. It's a bad design. The wall is triple thickness brick. There is a wooden plate in the brick wall at the bottom of the cornice. The lookouts run perpendicular and are what carries the weight of the cornice/gutter assembly. They sit on top of this plate. The brick then continues up 18"-24" on top of the plate and around the lookouts and then another rafter plate lays on top of the brick.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Is the rafter plate floating, or is it tied in somehow to the wall structure below.
I think there's a few bolts set in the brick, but they don't do much. That's the problem - the first one of these I worked on had splayed outward where the brick between the plates was 4"-5" out of plumb. I caught it where it was and tied the rafter system back down to the floor joists which are about 3' below the rafter plate. Tore all the bricks out and built a 2x12 cripple wall between the plates.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Yeah, that's what I was thinking would be one likely scenario. Looking forward to the pictures on this one.
Yeah, what Gman said. The rafter plate is held in with thru bolts, but the brick is not as high quality ( for in fill) and they basically crumble away with age.
Stud walling it and re-anchoring the new lookouts is sorta like doing an operation in a tight hole, the impact driver is a good friend, not much room for the tool loaded with a screw. We don't use air, or nails. The hammering would loosen what we are trying to save...everything is screwed.
Wait'll ya see us ripping a 1x12x16' on the top of the 6 tier of scaffold.
As it stands now, we have copper going in tomorrow, so the carpentry is over for this section, then we bug out while the painters use our scaffold set up. We will come back and tear down, and reset for the next section.
I am glad Grant could get the pics to post, I don't know why my end is so troublesome, but I'll figgure it out.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Shooting rubber bands at the Moon
Think the wasps got in your router? Don't look.
http://www.hay98.com/
heh,heh, heh.
The only routers here are of the woodworking type. I have not even netted my LT to the DT...lazy, I guess.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Shooting rubber bands at the Moon
If you just want to share files back and forth, you don't need a router, just a crossover cable. It does need to be configured correctly, however.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Not to hijack myself, but the only time I wished to be networked is when I want to send to the printer from the LT. But other than that, no biggie. I still have my router from when I had BB, I could fire it up I guess.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Shooting rubber bands at the Moon
I have a DT and LT and occasionally need to print from one or the other so I brought the cable going to the modem to the top of the desk, put a connector on it that is normally used to extend a cable and an extension for the USB that goes to my printer. That way, if I need to go online with the LT or print, I just unplug the cable I need, plug it into the LT and give 'er.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Gotcha. I use a different phone line for the LT and could just go directly to the printer or just email to my DT. LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Shooting rubber bands at the Moon
When my home network crashes, like now, I e-mail to my DT as well.
Well, you're really just e-mailing to yourself since the mail doesn't go go the computer, it goes to the mail server. I do the same thing since my DT runs Win98SE for now. MS isn't supporting it anymore and since I'm taking an IT Networking course at the local tech college, I get free software downloads and am going to update it to XP. I tried to install iTunes setup and it laughed at me.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
To continue your hijack- I've got a wireless network here, and I can't for the life of me get the laptop to use the printer, or even to share files with the DT. I spent most of a day on it, and then a friend who writes code for HP came over, no headway made.
For now, files go from LT to USB drive, to DT, to printer. I usually much prefer windows to mac, but this is one thing that's buggin me.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
I use one of those cheap printer A-B switches. DT and LT each get a printer cable, attached to one of the ports on the switch; third cable goes to the printer. Just push the button for the system you want to print from.
If you just want to share files back and forth, you don't need a router, just a crossover cable. It does need to be configured correctly, however.
And that crossover cable will probably cost as much or more than a router/hub/switch.
jt8
"All the knowledge I possess everyone else can acquire, but my heart is all my own." -- Goethe
A crossover cable is a piece of Cat 5 with an RJ-45 on each end. If you know about the color codes for ethernet, you know that pairs 2 and 3 are swapped, depending on whether you're using EIA 570A or B. One end is terminated A and the other is terminated B. This means that the orange-white/orange is on the outside (B) on one end and green-white/green (A) is on the outside on the other end. That's a crossover cable. This conversion is done inside of a router.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I know what a crossover cable is. And yes, for those folks who know how to do phone/network cables, they would have no problem creating a crossover, but for the rest of the folks who would be buying either the crossover or the router/switch/hub, then they're probably better off spending the $$ on the router/switch/hub. That will allow them to hook up several items, not just the two that a crossover allows.
The last switch I bought was a 5-port that was $5 after mail-in rebate ($20 prior to rebate). And I've had people offer to give me routers/switches/hubs (for free), especially when they go to a new broadband service and have to buy a new router and therefore dont' need the old one anymore. jt8
"All the knowledge I possess everyone else can acquire, but my heart is all my own." -- Goethe
"The last switch I bought was a 5-port that was $5 after mail-in rebate ($20 prior to rebate)."Is that cool, or what? Some of the parts are getting so cheap it's amazing.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
More progress.
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Dale & Duane hard at work.
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Dale fitting a miter joint.
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Duane soldering a drop in.
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Rebuilt trough waiting for liner.
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More trough awaiting liner.
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Installed liner awaiting solder and shingles. (and tool removal)
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Hey, I got more!
I dunno if it'll work tho' I could only get two to upload, then the same thing started again.
Woooheee, it's working.View Image
OK, we presolder the drop seam so it wont leak into the cornice, and tab the top so I can solder it nice and solid to the liner. like THIS
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Out by the front gable is an inside miter where the room gets kinda tight, a short pc. and scaffold in the way of a large torch, but it is all sweated tighter than a frogs butt. That was enough for us for one day, but we also did an area around the chimney, pics tomorrow ( I hope).
oh. the new cornice cover and end cap need to close off the right end.View Image
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Shooting rubber bands at the Moon
That's artistry.
Thanks to you and Sphere for putting this up.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Ben Franklin.
IC, it didn't take off as well as I had planned ( I mean the thread, the job is average of what we do), but I hope to spark more interest if I can get the GC and HO looking at it, cuz most GC's and HO's don't get up there and see what we do.
I read a post about someone haveing a hard time soldering a pipe joint that was verticle, all I can say is try a flat seam in a miter about 7'' high, and make it sure that it is water tight, thru freeze and thaw cycles...yes, you can make lead flow uphill ( if ya hold yer mouth right) and it likes it.
Artistry my axx, we just absorb that funny feeling..and do it.
To clarify or explain my sloppy solder joints, I will tell you that the "bridges'' or puddles...are what I call "strength risers".
And, I am sloppy up there..lol...but seriously, I have seen bad joints open by not having them gobs ( and I have no idea why I just got Italicised...)
C'est bon.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Shooting rubber bands at the Moon
Well, it looks good to me but what the heck....I like copper.
<G>
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Ben Franklin.
Copper is addictive, it has many attributes of those things we love. Reddish, sharp and conformable.
It also is a conductor extrordinair, and fickle when over kneaded...I think I can relate to those tendencies.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Shooting rubber bands at the Moon
Keep putting thse pics up and a lot more might be addicted. It's interesting work.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Ben Franklin.
That gutter will outlast the current owners. Looks good.
jt8
"The lowest ebb is the turn of the tide."-- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Edited 4/24/2007 11:31 am by JohnT8
Ok, back on track. Let's see if the attachment gods will smile.
A picture of the old liner that was going away, it is the first pic of this series really, but, it is here now.
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Now a shot of the new wood miter that supports the copper. This is all attached to those lookouts and lambs legs ya saw earlier.
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Then we start laying in the new liners that Grant bent up in the shop from our take off dimensions, that gets tricky for him if we don't give him exact numbers and where the pans end and get joined, he also has the drip edge for us, that we lock the outer edges to with a foldover.
Alas, the attach gods just quit working again, I'll try later in a new post...^&%$^&$ , grumble, .
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Shooting rubber bands at the Moon
A crossover cable doesn't cost squat. You can make them pretty easy too.
http://www.hay98.com/
Do they use crossover cables as rain management systems in KY?
I have.
http://www.hay98.com/
If you bundle them, they carry the water away through capillary action.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I've worked on several Churches here that had a similar built out gutter .It's difficult to keep the outside from sagging down over time.
We sometimes use a 3/16th by 1" strap with a twist in it to keep water directed into the gutter-to attach to the front edge then back under the roofing.Maybe that's what you had or will have.
Picture 005 looks like it should be an ad for Dewalt!
Hope Sphere doesn't catch too much grief for using yellow tools.
Hey Walter, we pull up ALL the DW in a trash can..no kidding.
2 sawsall's (wood and metal blades, we are too lazy to change out a blade..LOL) a circsaw (18v), a corded for the blade right feature and long rips, 2 drills for drilling into the brick and the turbo shears, 2 impactdrivers for screwing ( or three or four if Mike and I both have our Makitas) and 10 batteries, and 2 chargers.
Then we have the other stuff besides our self carry on to haul up there.
Seriously, we put it all in a 30 gallon trashcan and tie a rope to it.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Shooting rubber bands at the Moon
I'd never be caught dead using a yellow tool.
Drip edge is done - need to get started on the pans.
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Shearing 5" blanks.
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One edge has been hemmed and a kick bent on the bottom edge.
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Guaging the bottom flange.
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The bottom flange is bent - 45d angle rather than 90d for this application.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Keep that thumb out of the brake, eh.
Nice shop.
Keep that thumb out of the brake, eh.
I just cut the hell out of my thumb. This batch of copper is really oily and it slips thru the hands real easy.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
I hit post too quick.
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Last bend.
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Last bend gets smashed flat.
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And, the finished product. Duane & Dale just welded me up a steel frame for my table so I can eliminate the sag in it. There's about 2500 lbs of copper on the shelves below pulling it down.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Since I've figured out how to embed pics, here's Duane's job shots again.
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Dale contemplating the nothingness of this gutter system.
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Rebuilt corner.
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Some of the lookouts in this section are still good.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Dales sayin. "Some dick just threw my drill in the nasty gutter."
http://www.hay98.com/
What did ya finally figgure out? About embedding that is.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Shooting rubber bands at the Moon
What did ya finally figgure out? About embedding that is.
Sequencing. I was trying to make the change to the screen I had in front of me and then hit revise. Ya have to hit revise 1st.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
What's up with the EPDM? Is that the old gutter liner or what?jt8
"All the knowledge I possess everyone else can acquire, but my heart is all my own." -- Goethe
>>>>What's up with the EPDM?That's a temporary dry-in. If that metal cornice filled up with water, it could leech thru the brick wall and do some interior damage.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Well , what would you rather drop 30' to the driveway?
I wasn't a yellow freak either, but last XMAS I got a gift cert to Lowes, and being as Dale was already tooled up with Dwalt, the choice was simple. Like I said, we have a SLEW of batteries, all ID'd to each other and numbered.
Besides only DWalt makes the swivel head shears that are cordless, and once you use them instead of straight snips or reds, your arm says thankyou many times over.
My 6 pc. kit w/7th free was almost free to me.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Shooting rubber bands at the Moon
I have all the DW stuff too and love them all-except for battery life for the cordless skilsaw. Have you switched to all yellow top batteries,instead of the all black ones?
Looks like a challenging job,what with all the woodwork in addition to the lined gutters.
When you haul up your stuff,have you got a yardarm and bull wheel set on top of the pipe staging? or do you just bull it up hand over hand?
Have you tried posting to Shutterfly and then sending your client just the link?
Walter
Here's some pics of the gutter pans being bent. If you're not familiar with this type system, it'll make more sense when Duane gets some pictures of the gutter trough and the installation of these pans posted.
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1st bend.
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2nd bend.
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Last bend.
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Finished pan.
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Finished 10' pan.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
I own a wheel, but we haven't yet gotten the arm. We are trying to not have to remove anymore brick than needed. Some are just pcs. and are fallen behing the cornice which is a BAD thing.
Ayup, all the newest batteries. Being as I have an hour travel ( At least) each way everyday, I always have one "on the cooker" in the van. Weekends they come inside and get a full overnite on the charger.
We are HARD on tools, and falling off a roof is sometimes death to a tool, so far, DW has held up well.
My next will be the Makita LI-Ion line, but the Dw won't quit.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Shooting rubber bands at the Moon
I'm gonna second the Dewalts - tools that is. I've had great service from the tools, but I switched to Bosch because the Dewalt batteries started to die prematurely on me.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
The batteries may or may not last long, but I've had several of mine rebuilt and the rebuilds are better than OEM. I'm not necessarily a yellow fanatic, it's just that once you start on a particular system you tend to continue. I am NOT going to cart around more than one type of battery... they all have to be the same and fit all tools.
I feel the same EXCEPT...I am sweet on the 14.4 Makita Impact driver, lighter than an 18V DW and the belt clip is real handy when doing downspout off a ladder, I use it w/an 1/8th in bit for rivets cuz I also have a hammer drill for the tapcons into the brick/stone.
Toteing up 2 18v drills gets old fast. esp with out a belt clip.
Dale had the opposite exp. with a rebuilt batt, it flamed up on him. Actually melted.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Shooting rubber bands at the Moon
The battery that burned... while charging, while in use on a tool, or just sitting there?
IIRC it was in the cutoff tool ( angle grinder) and he was kerfing for counter flashing and pushing it pretty hard. He has a tendency to try to REALLY drain every electron outta the batts, even tho I admonish him all the time and enforce that he won't when ity is MY battery.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Shooting rubber bands at the Moon
Got it all wrapped up, last pans are in and soldered, site is cleaned up, painters can have at the scaffold for thier shift.
The only hitch ( lol) is the trailer, lady next door wants to get her garbage out, said we hindered her acess, we picked it up and rolled it back tite to the scaffold, and I'd say it's OK.
Got a funny feeling, she won't agree tho'. Also, I don't remember if one of us tied off the 40' ladder on the trailer, it is just parked there..if it gets moved, well..you know.
Looks like rain for the AM..I got work in the shop, Dale has plumbing to do..Hit the next job Fri?
Firing off an email tonite to you, invoice, but no rush, I am cool. Just wanna keep the timing close to what we do.
Back out side for some painting before the dark and rain gets here..later.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Shooting rubber bands at the Moon