For those that had asked me to post this as a formal Photo Galley thread, my apologies for taking so long in getting this posted.
Shower is a walk-in, about 5′ by 7′. Door is at a 45 degree angle.
Walk in to the shower and on the short wall to the immediate right are two supply valves, the lower one supplies the wall mounted handheld, the upper supplies an overhead 12″ rainshower head.
Moving counterclockwise from that wall, the long wall on the right is on an exterior wall, nothing but tile.
The short back wall has a 2-shelf niche, about 36″ wide and 30″ tall. The lower niche space is 15″ high, the shelf itself is 4″ thick, the upper niche space is 11″ high.
The last wall, the long wall to the left as you enter, has the wall-mounted hand-held. If I recall, the sliding bar is 40″ tall.
Tile backer? I prefer cement board on the walls. Wonderboard or Durock. I used Wonderboard on these walls. The ceiling and niche is done in Hardie, as Hardie is less brittle so for me it’s easier to cut into narrow strips to trim out the niche, and not as prone to snapping when installing full sheets overhead.
Pics to follow…
Replies
The Basics:
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ABOVE: Looking through the door. Can lights are wet area cans.
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ABOVE: Inside looking back at the supply valve wall.
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ABOVE: Niche. Nipple on wall to left is supply for wall-mounted hand-held.
Prepping for Kerdi:
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ABOVE: Need to get the walls smooth, so I'm knocking down high areas or any blobs or thinset with a carborundum stone.
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ABOVE: Setting a plumb line to hang the first sheet. Just like hanging wall paper. I hold the first sheet about an inch from the inside corner. Sheet is about 39-1/2" wide. I want the thinset to extend about 1" past the edge of the sheet. So I drop a plumb line about 41-1/2" or so from the inside corner, and mark the line vertically every foot or so with a tick mark using a sharpie.
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ABOVE: Thinset. This is a little thicker than I want. I want it stiff enough so I can flat trowel it on the wall without it dripping all over or running down the wall, as well as it being able to hold a ridge after it's combed out. Not too stiff, though as you don't want it skinning over before you hang the sheet.
Nice work Mongo.
Keep the pics coming.[email protected]
WHICH content will be free, of course; WHICH content will require registration; but WHICH content will be available only to members of FineHomebuilding.com.???
Thanks. I am going to be a bit slow, I have some pics on one desktop and some on another. Ugh...
Mongo,
Do you put a small tilt on the the (2) shelf niches for drainage? I would also like to see more of the pan. I will be attempting a similar shower in the future.
Looks great. Thanks for the post!
Do you put a small tilt on the the (2) shelf niches for drainage? I would also like to see more of the pan. I will be attempting a similar shower in the future.
You were to fast for me, Vince! See the picture showing the speed square held on the shelf.
Picks of the floor to follow. Might be late tonight or tomorrow.
Mongo
Edited 3/5/2007 8:45 pm ET by Mongo
When I do my corners can I just run the kerdi through the corner lets say 6" and run the next wall over it to lets say 1" from inside corner thereby giving me a 5' overlap. Instead of running a seperate 8" piece? Or is it tough to run it through corners without wrinkles?
Thanks for all your pics and posts. It looks great so far and I can't wait to see it finished.
Oh one last thought. What type of lighting and fan is used. Will they be enclosed bulbs when finished? Special type of vent and light fixture for showers?
Edited 3/5/2007 8:04 pm ET by AllTrade
Edited 3/5/2007 8:06 pm ET by AllTrade
When I do my corners can I just run the kerdi through the corner lets say 6" and run the next wall over it to lets say 1" from inside corner thereby giving me a 5' overlap. Instead of running a seperate 8" piece? Or is it tough to run it through corners without wrinkles?
Yes, you can. See Post #10, the second picture. It shows the Kerdi being run through the corner and onto the next wall. You could overlap it more than the recommended 2" (I often use 3"). Careful with too much overlap, though. when you try to bed the top layer of the overlap, sometimes you can "drag" the bottom layer along with the top, wrinkling the obottom layer. If that happens, just peel back the top layer, reset the bottom, then reset the top. Or let the bottom layer fully cure, then overlap the next layer.
Oh one last thought. What type of lighting and fan is used. Will they be enclosed bulbs when finished? Special type of vent and light fixture for showers?
Those were either Halo or Juno cans and trim kits. I have since seen the trim kits at Home Depot. It's likely they sell the cans as well. Fan was probably either a Panasonic or Nutone. Sorry! Failing memory...
Mongo
Thanks, keep up the good work where wathcing every step.
Yeah. Great thread, Mongo. I am wanting to start incorporating more tile work in my projects. Got the Kerdi e book (thanks to Andy Clifford's postings)and photo essays like this really encourage me. Thanks, I'll be watching carefully.Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
Fast forward...the walls, niche and ceiling are tiled and grouted. Time for the drypack preslope...
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ABOVE: Old 2-part clamping drain cut out, I bought a $3 cutoff wheel and fashioned a jig to cut the drain from the pipe from the inside. Match your Kerdi drain to your existing plumbing, ABS or PVC. You can see PEX for radiant floor heat underneath subfloor.
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ABOVE: Underlayment scewed, new drain location set. Though it depends on the height that the Kerdi Drain is set at, the Kerdi Drain flange is about 4-1/2" in diameter, I cut a 5" diameter hole in the underlayment and subfloor.
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ABOVE: Setting the perimeter elevation for the drypack preslope. I base this height on a 1-1/4" thickness of deck mud under the flange of the Kerdi Drain, plus an additional 1/4" rise per foot of run from the drain to the farthest wall. I actually pitched this floor slightly steeper, as the floor tile has a bit of texture to it, slightly hindering drainage.
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ABOVE: More mud packing.
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ABOVE: I make the mix slightly looser for the ring of mud that goes under the drain's flange.
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ABOVE: I covered the fleece surface of the drain with masking tape so the fleece wouldn't get messed up during installation. I had previously dry fit the drain to the plumbing waste line. The coupling sitting on top of the drain is cut to length so the drain will be set at the proper height above the subfloor, 1-1/4" in this case.
You have to have your ducks all squared away when glueing the drain to the plumbing waste line while simultaneously mudding the drain flange in place, as the flange has to be set at the proper height and set perfectly level.
It's much easier if you have access to the plumbing from below and you can simply set the drain flange in the mud on Day One, then glue up the drain to the waste plumbing on Day Two after the mud has set.
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ABOVE: Fast forward, the preslope is completed. The drywall bucket is sitting over the drain.
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ABOVE: A well set drain in a properly pitched preslope. Time for a beverage of my choice.
Time to Kerdi the preslope:
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ABOVE: First sheet is dry fit to the preslope. You don't want a membrane seam to fall on the flange, so plan accordingly.
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ABOVE: Drain kit comes with a template to cut a properly sized hole for the drain in the membrane.
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ABOVE: Hole is cut, I also used the ever-present Sharpie to make tick marks just off the edge of the sheet to show how far out to spread the thinset.
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ABOVE: Roll the sheet up...
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ABOVE: Spread the thinset...
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ABOVE: Same bedding technique as used on the wall, and viola, the floor is done. Now time for the floor-to-wall transition.
Niiiiiiice.
The floor-to-wall transition. When you have a lot of inside/outside corners, this is where layers of Kerdi can build up. Remember, Kerdi-Band is half the thickness of the regular Kerdi, so that may help. Thickness buildup, to me, is dependent on the type of tile that you're installing. A 1" mosaic, for example, would telegraph and mimic the height differentials that a larger tile could span and disguise.
Plan accordingly.
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ABOVE: Starting with an inside corner. Pre-crease the material, snip, fold, and place. These inside 90's are easy. Move on to the next corner.
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ABOVE: I use the ever-present Sharpie to mark the inside or outside point of all corners, then use scissors to cut just shy of that point. Fold the material hard over on itself to the Sharpie mark, and it is sort of self-sealing, so to speak.
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ABOVE: Cutting to an inside 45 degree corner. Pretty much the same as a 90.
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ABOVE: You can see the previous 45 folded over on itself, I'm now marking an outside 90 degree corner. This requires an bit more detail.
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ABOVE: Here is the first piece for an outside 90. You sort of force this piece around the corner so the uncut inside edge rides up the wall a bit.
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ABOVE: Like this, but when installed it'll ride up the edge of the wall just a bit more.
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ABOVE: When the previous piece is installed, this part will go over it, layered on top. Whereas the previous piece sat on the floor and rode up the corner of the wall a bit, this piece cut will be on the wall and the cut will ride down on to the floor a bit. The two pieces will overlap, closing the hole so to speak.
Now, while I trust Schluter, I also want peace of mind, so I use a smear of Kerdi-Fix in these corners as well. Kerdi-Fix is Schluter's proprietary sealer. Comes in a tube like caulk and is dispensed with a caulking gun. I let everything cure/dry, then use the K-F prior to tiling.
Like Agent Mulder, when it comes to water intrusion I pretty much trust no one...
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ABOVE: This shows all those corner pieces thinsetted in place. As you can see, the layers can build up, so consider Kerdi band if you nedd to minimize thickness.
Now for something a little different. I'll include this since it's Kerdied as well.
Instead of a simple curb at the entry to the shower, I fashioned a larger platform that serves as both the curb for the shower, a raised tiled "drying off" area just outside of the shower, as well as a step up to facilitate getting into and out of the Jacuzzi tub.
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ABOVE: Platform is framed, covered with two layers of ply, and more of the wondrous Wonderboard.
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ABOVE: Platform is Kerdied, and platform Kerdi is lapped over Kerdi in shower.
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ABOVE: "Curb" and platform from inside the shower looking out.
Time to tile the floor...
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ABOVE: Grid layout is for floor tiles, each square is about 12" square. Each square is large enough to fit a 3-by-3 grid of ~4" tiles. Remember, the floor is sloped, so grout joint spacing needs to be adjusted ever-so-slightly to keep straight grout lines on a sloped surface.
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The drain cover for the Kerdi Drain is about 4" square, so it matches this tile size quite well.
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ABOVE: Ah yes, a fun morning spent with the Felker wet saw...ABOVE: The 4" field tiles layed out and thinsetted.
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ABOVE: Filling the border tiles around the edge of the field of 4-inchers, right in front of the door. I'm really thrilled with the balance and symettry of this part of the floor.
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ABOVE: The floor along the opposite (niche) wall. You can see the drain. Sometimes the drain can be set as if it were a whole tile, replacing a single 4" square tile, or four 2" square tiles. For this floor layout I clipped the corners of the four adjacent tiles to fit the drain into the center of those four 4" tiles.
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ABOVE: Filling in the remainder of the floor tiles in front of the door opening, as well as the "baseboard", or bottom course of wall tile.
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ABOVE: The tiled floor.
Edited 3/6/2007 1:28 am ET by Mongo
Edited 3/6/2007 1:30 am ET by Mongo
Almost there:
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ABOVE: The fun part.
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ABOVE: Done, from the inside looking out.
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ABOVE: Done, from the outside looking in.
Yikes, the low resolution of the pics is making my purdy grout lines look all jiggy and ziggy.Mongo
Miscellaneous leftovers:
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ABOVE: Someone asked if I had a picture of the squeeze out I get at the seam when I use the drywall knife to embed the Kerdi in the thinset. Here's a close-up.
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ABOVE: Here's a picture of the completed niche.
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ABOVE: A pic of the tiled wall, though I don't have the hand held mounted in this picture.
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ABOVE: And the tiled ceiling. Tiling a ceiling is fairly easy. I first struck layout lines on the ceiling, then I I troweled and combed the ceiling with thinset. I then backbuttered the tiles and set them. No additional bracing, no worries. It's the grouting that's messy.I spray painted the vent cover black (it was ivory) so it'd better blend with the ceiling tiles. One thing that isn't done in this picture is that the intersection of the ceiling and walls has not been caulked. I used sanded caulk, color matched to the grout.
There's not a single uncut tile in that entire shower.
The black tiles started out as 12" squares, the ivory as 13" squares.
Every stinking piece went through the wet saw then I eased the cut edges with a carborundum stone.
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ABOVE: A very tired carborundum stone.
Mongo,Thanks for this terrific thread. What kind of tile did you use? I'm not envious of having to cut every single one, but the layout on this is stellar. Gives me some great ideas for an upcoming project.Best,
SteveTua res agitur, paries cum proximus ardet ~ Horace
What kind of tile did you use? I'm not envious of having to cut every single one, but the layout on this is stellar.
First, thanks.
Now, to answer:
I may be off a fraction here or there, but in general, here's what I did:
The ivory tiles started as exact 13" squares. I set my wet saw fence to about 4-1/4" and ripped 4-1/4" off one side of the 13" square. I then rotated the 13" by 4-1/4" cutoff and cut 4-1/4" off the end of that.
That gave me a 13" by 8-3/4" piece that was used on the walls below the black deco band, an 8-3/4" by 4-1/4" piece that was used above the black deco band, and a 4-1/4" square that was used elsewhere in the bath outside the shower.
I repeated that to get as many 13" by 8-3/4" pieces that I needed for the walls below the black band.
I still needed more 8-3/4" by 4-1/4" pieces for above the black band, so to I took another 13" square tile, and with the fence still set at 4-1/4", I ripped 4-1/4" off the side of the tile. I then flipped the large remnant, which was 13" by 8-3/4", and cut that into three 8-3/4" by 4-1/4" pieces and set those aside. I came back to my original cutoff, the 13" by 4-1/4" piece, flipped that, and cut 4-1/4" off the end of that. That last cut gave me another 8-3/4" by 4-1/4" piece for above the wall, and another 4-1/4" square that I used elsewhere. So from each 13" square I got four 8-3/4" by 4-1/4" pieces for above the black band, as well as one 4-1/4" square used elsewhere.
All without having to change the fence setting.
For the black deco wall band, I took an originally 12" square black tile (I think they were 11-3/4" squares), set the fence to about 5-3/4", and ran the tile through twice to get two pieces, each about 11-3/4" by 5-3/4". I did this to as many tiles as needed.
I then set the fence to about 2-3/4", rotated the halves, and cut each half into four 2-3/4" by 5-3/4" pieces.
Out of each 11-3/4" square black tile I got eight 2-3/4" by 5-3/4" pieces.
The ceiling is essentially black tiles cut in half to 11-3/4" by 5-3/4" wide, same fence setting as used above.
The floor squares are the black tiles cut into nine pieces. Set the fence to about 3-5/8ths, ripped three lengths from each tile, then rotate each length and cut each length into three squares. Nine 3-5/8th black floor squares per each whole tile.
Clear as mud?<!---->
Mongo<!---->
Edited 3/12/2007 11:27 am ET by Mongo
Ah, that's what I meant about how great your project is, all the thought that went into it. Thanks for the detail.And now I'm going to sheepishly say, all I really wanted to know was what kind of tile it is :) Thanks again,
SteveTua res agitur, paries cum proximus ardet ~ Horace
"Once I could see...but now I'm blind..."
Doh!
I don't recall the name of the ivory.
The black is Continental Slate, Asian Black. Not expensive at all. A through body porcelain with decent texture and minimal repeats in the pattern. Any patterning is invisible if you cut and flip.Mongo
That's perfect. It was the black tile I was interested in.I recalled seeing one of your shower photos elsewhere on BT, so I was pretty excited to see it as the basis of this thread. Congrats again on a job that inspires!Tua res agitur, paries cum proximus ardet ~ Horace
Mongo<
You wrote; "There's not a single uncut tile in that entire shower. The black tiles started out as 12" squares, the ivory as 13" squares. Every stinking piece went through the wet saw then I eased the cut edges with a carborundum stone. "
Most tiles have an eased over edge as they approach the edge of the tile. This makes grouting easy and make for a nice look. If you cut a tile and then have to grout up to that edge your grout has to be perfectly level with teh very face of the tile in order to hid the cut edge. Did you have this problem? Did the color in your tile go all the way through the tile?
Yes, they were through-body.The edges were eased just enough to somewhat mimic the factory edge.Mongo
Filling the border tiles around the edge of the field of 4-inchers, right in front of the door. I'm really thrilled with the balance and symmetry of this part of the floor.
Everything looks great but especially this part.
It didn't happen by chace though, did it? I assume you accurately placed the floor drain or adjusted the width of the border. Or something else.
Do you do the walls first to keep the floor clean?
It didn't happen by chace though, did it? I assume you accurately placed the floor drain or adjusted the width of the border. Or something else.
The detail around the door was planned that way. But sometimes the plan doesn't survive the execution!
I actually did both of what you mentioned regarding the drain location. Pre-tiling, I moved the location of the original 2-part clamping assembly to a better location. I couldn't get it perfect due to issues under the subflooor. Radiant floor heat, etc.
As a result, the border isn't an exactly equal width on all sides. Close, but not exact, and it doesn't seem to be that obvious. That unequal border is due to me to shifting the entire field of 4" squares just a bit. Add in the lateral flexibility when positioning the upper part of the Kerdi Drain, and it's tough to really screw up the floor design.
If the border is wide enough, you can fudge uneveness in the border. But the drain head itself needs to be dead-center and symettrical in the layout of the floor tile. If the drain cover were only off by 1/8th of an inch in the floor tile it would be apparent.
Do you do the walls first to keep the floor clean?
Yes. I have to be one of the messiest tilers around. But that's also an advantage with the Kerdi. You can later lap the floor membrane over the wall membrane with no worries.
I typically tile the walls first, with the exception of the bottom course or two of wall tile. Depends on the size of the tile. That allows me to set up a straight edge of some sort around the perimeter of the shower to use as a level guide for starting the wall tile.
I then tile the ceiling, then grout the ceiling and the walls.
Then I do the floor, from preslope to tile, and lastly I fill in the bottom course of wall tile. Then I grout the floor and the bottom course(s) of wall tile.
Being a messy worker brings up a good point. In some of the pictures you can see a ding in the membrane on the niche wall. I had my level leaning against the wall and it tipped over, taking a bite out of the membrane. I circled the ding with a Sharpie, then came back later and put a 5" square patch of Kerdi over it. Or you could seal it with a dab of Kerdi-Fix.
Mongo
Nice work, great thread.
Do you caulk all the corners, or only the wall/ceiling corner?
And when you are going to caulk the corner, do you leave each tile short of the corner to create a gap, or do you lap or weave the corner. Hope that makes some sense.
I haven't been real thrilled with the color match between sanded caulk and sanded grout- I did one shower that it worked well in, but I did another (with white grout and caulk) where the caulk was obviously a different color than the grout.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Thanks zak.I always caulk the wall/ceiling intersection.If the walls are floated mud, then the wall-wall and wall-floor corners can be grouted. Because of the way that I detailed this shower, I could grout the floor/wall joints and the wall/wall joints, only the wall/ceiling is caulked.Depends on the method of construction.Color matching grout and caulk is a crap shoot. Even color matching the same color between a single manufacturer's portland-based and epoxy-based grouts isn't a given.There are a lot of installer techniques that can alter the color of a grout, not to mention the quality of water used when mixing the grout.Dim lighting always helps.<g>Mongo
If I might ask, did you leave the durock near the corners to float, and tape and mortar them together? That seems like it might be a way to keep the corners true.
thanks again,zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Thanks so much for a very good thread. You are a true craftsman.
Mongo,
Thanks for the great thread!! I'm just now doing my first Kerdi.
Real nice job on that shower. Great pics too.
Harry
I know I'm pulling up a long-dead thread, so accept my apologies.
But I was wondering if you could expound on this answer:"Because of the way that I detailed this shower, I could grout the floor/wall joints and the wall/wall joints, only the wall/ceiling is caulked.This was originally written in post # 86714.47
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon, The easier one to describe is the floor, as there is no real trick there. I just run the cement board a little shy of the subfloor, when the deck mud goes in it gets packed up against the cement board. Not a detail you'd want to use in a conventional shower due to potential moisture wicking, but in a Kerdi shower with a topical membrane it works quite well.The wall corners are more difficult to describe. Essentially, in each corner, where the two pieces of cement board meet, they are attached to one wall, not two. With the corner edges of the two pieces of CB essentially being on the same stud, if there is any movement, they'll move together instead of independently. I've never had grout crack doing it this way.Wall-ceiling still gets caulked.
I have found that using Kerdi on a mud base and up the walls even if onl 8" or so, will virtually eliminate grout cracking at the wall/floor interface.
Same thing goes for inside corners using an 8" band.
I just can't see caulking these joints INSTEAD of grout.
I've tried them all.
While it's not a true isolation or crack suppression membrane, I suppose to a limited extent it can still act as one.
While it's not a true isolation or crack suppression membrane, I suppose to a limited extent it can still act as one.
I'm sorta doubting that..in fact I don't really see how Kerdi stops corner cracks at all.
To me all it does is "waterproof". Ditra on the other hand I understand how that stuff helps isolate tile cracks by giving it a bit of cushioning...same with Redgard.
I don't think anything takes the place of caulking the inside corners.
One question though I've been wondering...while it's not the cracking of inside corners that bothers me for appearance sake being it's easy enough to reapply some more grout in those corners down the line....it's the fact that water gets into the crack so functionally speaking thats why I want to eliminate the cracks but the question is....I've seen different guys caulk a cpl of days ahead of grouting so the caulk has time to dry and then they grout. The grout usually covers the caulk in several areas being it's dificult to keep it off other then wiping it down with the rest of the walls/floor. The caulk too never really looks "exactly" like the grout does which is a little irritating to me. I always wonder about caulking half way in to create that seal then grout the rest of the way to the surface. I always think though that that would have the grout crack and look like crapp that much sooner.
It's just always been a question in the back of my mind......anyone ever deal with that and what's been your outcome?
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Edited 1/19/2009 11:42 am ET by andybuildz
Well...I'm trying to give a little bit to Eric, but yeah, I agree with you. Wall-wall joints are more susceptible to movement and cracking than wall-floor joints. The fleece/polyethylene/fleece layering of Kerdi does offer a little bit of give when it comes to shear action. Not much, but some.That's why with him talking about floor joints I'm giving a little to him. And yeah, I think half-depth grout over half-depth caulk would be more susceptible to cracking than all grout. It might even crack in places where all grout would never crack.If I Kerdied over a foam pan, I'd caulk the floor joints. If I Kerdied over wall corners done in a traditional manner, I'd caulk the wall joints.
Edited 1/19/2009 1:31 pm ET by Mongo
I have heard of people grouting over those seams.Then covering them with clear caulk so that they won't leak if they crack.Don't have any idea of how sucessful that is..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Bill
I doubt that'd work because to me what makes sense is to keep the water from getting behind the tile. Once it's behind the tile it would just soak into the cbu. If Kerdi is behind the tile no water will get past that even without caulk but why allow any water at all back there b/c it will get to the thinset and sit in that till it evaporates and create mildew on the grout above...not necessarily create leaks in the pan b/c the Kerdi will stop it.
Think the ultimate job in my mind is to Kerdify over whatever...do your tile with thinset to the Kerdi. Caulk all inside corners and put an extremely good sealer on the grout once it's cured.....and of course cleaning the grout a cpl of times a year and reapplying a good cpl of coats of sealer (like any homeowner will ever do that...lol).
I've had seral suggestion over at JBF and they sorta put me down for it but F' em'...I still think it's a great idea and this is what I came up with.....assuming a customer won't spring for an all Kerdi job. this is what I did on the huge shower I'm just now finishing.
Did my mud base 4'x8'-(ish). Kerdi over my mud base tucked into the drain hole right up to the drains weep holes that have spacers over them to keep the holes open.
Redgard from the thinset line at the top of my Kerdi which extends up about 4" extending the Redgard just below the shower spray line...and oh yeh...I stapled 30# felt on all stud walls under the HArdibacker.
All over Hardibacker.. All tiles backbuttered.
Going to caulk all inside corners tomorrow with sanded caulk. Let dry a cpl of days.
OR
Even considered squeezing some thinset into the real deep inside corner spaces so I don' t have to waste tubes of caulk....let the TS dry a day...caulk the rest of the way then grout a day or so later.
HAving done renos for over 30 something years I find a lot of what we do is way over kill.
YOu know how many tile walls in shower/tubs that I've ripped off and found the studs lined with green board (M.R ROCK)that were perfectly fine behind them? I'd NEVER rcommend doing that but thats what I'd found in alotta demo of bathrooms.
CBU's with felt beind them and tiled right over I've never had issues with over all my years. Sure....Redgard and Kerdi and Noble are GREAT but we've succeeded when done right the old fashioned way as well.
The BIG advantage I find using Kerdi is no mold and dirty grout.........I've never had a shower or tub leak with out the use of Kerdi......ever. A Kerdi job ain;t cheap either.
In a perfect work I'd do Kerdi every time however.
Be well
andy
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Edited 1/19/2009 2:38 pm ET by andybuildz
Andy,
I've never liked the rsults of caulking the corners.
The 'guys' at JBF are diehard caulkers. My experience even when using good brand color matched caulk is eventually it turns to mush or mold or worse. After all, it IS a LATEX product, it's water based just like the wall glue we are not supposed to use in showers.
You and Mongo may have valid points about the Kerdi not being a "true" isolation membrane, but really, how different is it from what is maketed as such?
Again, my experience has shown me that Kerdi is nearly eliminating cracks in the corners when grouted. I suppose the science behind it is arguable; but all I know is that it works.
I saw you get beat down by the Bridge guys. Kinda like JLC over there sometimes.
Eric,Do you ever use the Kerdi tray/pan?And, what would happen if you used a strip of Ditra like the Kerdi band and applied it vertically on the corners from floor to ceiling (and then Kerdied over top of that)? Would that be enough to isolate the movement on the corners and allow you to grout? Not sure if that would be completely half-baked or not.Best,
Steve'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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In my opinion thats not worth anymore then just fibergalss taping the corners and thinsetting it cause Kerdi won't do much more
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Kerdi base I installed
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Tiled over the kerdi and base and walls
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http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
I remember that shower. Love that footrest.Did you roll your own?Kerdi base that is. The one in the video I was just watching didn't have a line in it like yours. Did it work well for you?Back to the corner. Why wouldn't the Ditra attached to the framing serve as an isolator to allow the drywall/hardi to float independently and avoid transferring any stress on the grout?'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Here is how I see this issue.
Old school mud job would have wire lathe wrapped around the corners with mud floated to it. It effectively becomes monolithic.
That's what I believe Kerdi ing the inside corner strives to achieve. It attaches one wall to the other so they are more of a single unit.
Yeh...rolled it myself. Was a real trip. would be a whole lot easier next time now that I've done it once. I came up with the concept and technique so I had nothing really to riff off of at that time.
The thing about Kerdi is that it's paper thin and when it's thinset to the walls it basically becomes a skin affixed to the walls in my opinion so whatever the walls do the kerdi will do...hence possible cracks.
In that particular bathroom (my own house) i did fill the inside corners halfway with caulk and grouted over that.....and I do have to say...it's beena cpl of years so far and there's not evena hairline crack so maybe my concept does work.
I'm wondering though of Ditra might work better in that case being it is a cushion of sorts and only an 1/8th inch thick. It does also get thinset to the walls but like I said...it is cushioned. the only thing is...an 1/8" thick projection might not work out too well unless you make the corners of 1/4" HArdi and the rest 1/2" then thinset the ditra into the 1/4" hardi corner. seems like a hassle though and the framing would have to accept it all......although I may have just invented something...hmmmm....1/4" Hardi with ditra attached pre formed for all inside corners....geezz maybe I shouldn't have announched that here ....lol...pretty good idea
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Andy: I never saw it mentioned in the entire thread - how tight do you make your corners of the Hardibacker? I'm doing a tub surround for my daughter. She has a tub installed, & is going to tile to the ceiling. I have the Hardibacker in, but have some bodacious gaps at the corner. Am about to put the TS & FG mesh on it. Like the sound of your Kerdi. Never heard of the stuff till today. Looked on their website & I can Kerdify the tub surround for under $150 - well worth it in my book. Only about 77 sq ft. Tile setter was planning to just tile over the existing wall board, which is about 35 yrs old. Not good. My labor is charged at about ten cents an hour, so it's a no-brainer as to who does it.This long thread has most likely 'splained a problem I have w/ our walk in shower at home. Hardibacker from base to ceiling. I built a 2X6 ft access panel in back of wall where all plumbing is. The Hardibacker looks damp along the 2X4 horizontal piece that defines the bottom of the access space. My guess is that the water has seeped into the Hardi through the joint between the floor & wall - which isn't caulked. Reason I think it comes from there is that the Hardi is damp from the bottom up, not from the top down.DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
I would use Denshield or cbu in that order over Hardi, but it's too late for you.
I would pack those corners with thick mixed thinset and let it set before doing anything else. You may have some oozing that you will have to scrape off.
Installing Kerdi is 'sorta' like doing wallpaper, only you use thinset for glue and Kerdi for paper.
You have to be mindfull to get the right amount of thinset on the walls and also to not squeeze too much out when pressing down the Kerdi.
Eric: I wallowed through all of this post. Interesting. Putting up Kerdi is a difficult wall paper job. I saw how supremely smooth Andy got his. That's my standard! Probably take me a smidge longer, but it is not beyond my capability. I've smeared enough wallboard mud & smoothed it to at least take me beyond the beginner stage. At least Daughter is putting rather large tiles on her wall, so telegraphing through small tiles isn't a problem. I'll read Andy's description again before starting anything. Let you know how it pans out!Thanks - you told me what I expected.DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
I get my Kerdi from Tile Protection. they seem the least expensive and has decent response.....although....I noticed recently Ebay has it even cheaper!!!
One thing I'm going to order next time is the trowel from Tile Protection b/c I'm yet to find the proper sized trowel and they do sell it for i think $20.
I space my boards about an 1/8th of an inch. I just stick a 6d nail between boards as my spacer..
Making your thinset a hair looser then normal works best to keep the fiber tape smooth and flat. I even feather it out with my excess thinset at times.
It goes for about $100 for 54 sq ft plus you can buy more by the sq foot...check Ebay though...I saw it cheaper there.
http://www.tileprotection.com/home.php
Oh...and get the trowel...same for Ditras as for Kerdi...I found it near inpossible to find in the stores by me
View ImageSee details
Kerdi Trowel SKU: TRLKER/6 Trowel used for Kerdi membrane installation.
Enter Product for Pricing
Also...be SURE to staple 30# felt over the studs before you put your Hardi up!!
The Hardie btw shouldn't be touching the floor/base b/c that wicks water up. It should be an inch or more higher
edit: one last thing...expect it to take you a good day to get it installed. It's really not all that easy the first time you do it. Not like it's difficult but the first time you do anything...ya know?
You alos might wanna buy the kit with the Kerdi drain...maybe even the pan....see...whatcha gettin into...lol. comes with a nice video telling you how it's done or you can view it on Schluters site.
Once you go Kerdi you'll never go back....unless the customer won't spring for it...and even then...my last job I sprung for it just for the mud base out of my own pocket....grrrrr
I KNOW how good it is cause I have one shower in my house I did years ago without it and the one I posted pic of here with it. NIGHT AND DAY! No cracks...no mold or mildew...looks as good as the day I installed it!
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Edited 1/25/2009 11:17 pm ET by andybuildz
AndyI have used Kerdi for a several years now and have never installed 30# felt behind.In fact I believe that Schulter does not require it in their installation instructions. I will check my my notes.Frank
whoopsss...you're right. I was thinking just CBU's without Kerdi
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Andy: You misinterpreted one part of my note - this Hardibacker job is above a BATHTUB! I don't have the fun you have w/ a walk in shower w/ its floor/wall joint. The Hardi is already up - ready for the TS/tape on the joints. I left about 3/8 inch between the bottom of the Hardi & the top of the tub, allowing for caulk, but the Hardi is below the top edge of the tub rim.I am "lucky" in one respect - the tub is 5 ft long, so I only have one planar joint - horizontal, about 3 ft above the tub top. Not a problem - it has about an 1/8 inch gap. I do have two corner joints that run from the top of the tub to the ceiling. That's where my "Large" gap is, courtesy of walls that are not plumb. To plumb them would take rebuilding the room! I already had to straighhten out two adjacent studs that were more than a half inch out of some plane. Each bowed an opposite direction from the other. Is there any reason why I cannot put a bead of backer rod in the corners to give a third surface for the caulk so I don't wind up filling an entire stud bay w/ caulk?Really good news - daughter called me this AM & when I told her what I wanted to do & what it would cost she asked me why I didn't order the stuff & have it shipped to her house to save time & trouble. She lives in MS & we live in GA. How's that for a client? Of course, my time gets charged at TEN Cents an hour, so labor is cheap.You guys have been more help than you can imagine - offering a complete, illustrated course on shower tiling. Once again illustrating there is a big difference between theory & practice.Thanks.DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
OK...gotcha...a tub!
I usually fill any real wide corner gaps with thinset so I don't end up emptying ah half a tube of caulk into the corner...or you can use the rod...either or.
Don't forget to post some pictures : )
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Andy: Best photo of all wasn't taken. It was wife & me hoisting 4X5 sheet of 1/2 inch Hardibacker onto wall at the top of the 3 ft piece already there. Yeh, I know, shoulda put the 4 footer on bottom. Keystone Kops were serious business compared to that. This was the side wall behind the tub, naturally. This is a 1970's house. There was a light switch on the wall at the rear of the tub - you could reach out about 6 inches & turn on or off the lights or exhaust fan. The fan exhausted into the attic spaces. Loverly. Also was as wimpy as an exhaust fan can get. Now has a new fan that would suck Dolly Parton's wig off & eject it to the outside through the new roof jack we are going to put up there to vent to the outside world. Switch has been put on reverse side of wall, which puts it outside the small room where the shower is.Any minute I expect to see the stars of "The Money Pit" walk in on us while we are working.DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Never used the tray but would like to play.
I'm not sure where you are going with the Ditra thing..........it's fairly thick and is like the surface of a waffle and I don't think that it will hold a bend very well. Even if it did, it wiuld be a thick band in the corners that would need to be floated into plane with the rest of the wall.
Guess I could have done a better job describing my idea. I was trying to get the shower assembly to be independent of the framing, so if it moves in the corner it wouldn't affect the grouted corners.Framing, then Ditra strip, then drywall/hardi, then Kerdi, etc.The Ditra is only 1/8" thick, right? And since it's under the drywall/hardi you shouldn't have to float anything out (I'm guessing). But if it wouldn't hold a bend under that, then I'm going to dump this idea back into the fishpond of dumb thoughts. LOL'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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You have the right idea.........us smart alecs like to try #### that's not in the book.
It'll either blow the crowd away (although they will never admit it) or we'll be kickin' ourselves in the arse for a bit.
IF, we could float the corners............no attachment to the framing; it would help oooodles.
Have you looked at the metal strips Schluter has. Can't recall the name. Any inside or outside corner you put this metal there.
Check it out.
http://www.schluter.com/141.aspx Dilex something or another.
I'm thinking of using it but not to crazy about the look.
Too commercial looking. Most residential clients wouldn't bite.
I'm not too sure that the corners are closed or sealed as they would be if grouted or caulked.
No they aren't sealed. You set it in the mortar like the tile. So the whole thing is
on top of the kerdi. I know, it just doesn't look good. Would be nice not to caulk thou...
Looks like you can get it down to just over 1/4" (9/32)
But it does say that one of the applicable uses is for food-processing plants. Not sure that's quite the look I'd want in my shower :)
View Image'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Funny!
I saw you get beat down by the Bridge guys. Kinda like JLC over there sometimes.
They sure tried but the points they made, made little sense to me.
One guy said using Regard beyond the top of the Kerdi seemed like a mush mosh job or something to that effect but to me that BS.
I have a customers that refused to pay to use Kerdi all the way up the walls so I sprung out of my own pocket to do just the base pan up about 4". No way did I have to spend the extra $150 "out of MY poscket" but I did b/c I wanted him to have that added protection on the floor where waters its; a lot longer then anywhere else.
THEN...I sprung for another $50+ to Redgard beyond the kerdi in the most effected water areas.
The posted can kiss my you know what trying to put me down for doing it that way b/c in my eyes all that could do would be to help A LOT and to be honest w/you i think thats a GREAT technique given the fact the customer wouldn't spring for Kerdi.
And of course he couldn't give me ONE reason why that was a bad idea what I did.
Some of those guys are a bit holier then tho IMO. I suppose if all I did was tile I might feel a little protective and defensive myself to certain techniques that a "carp" comes up with, right or wrong.
To this day I think that was a real good idea. For me to have Kerdified that entire shower would have literally cost me a good cpl of grand in material and labor.
Far as the inside corners go...it just makes sense to me that using a siliconized tile caulk won't ever really crack the same way grout is quaranteed to at which point water will run under your tiles in a big way....not just absord like it may under worn sealer over grout.
To me those inside corners are a critical leaking entry point.
The Kerdi and the base most definatly really has to help a lot as well just like you and I spoke about a few weeks ago.
I'm ready to grout that shower by the way this coming week so I'll take some pic.
The entire thing has been tiled...ugh....soooooooooo sick of tiling that bathroom like you have no idea! I'll try and posy pic tomorrow night of the completed tile work here.
After i did the plumbing & b/4 I build the shower partion wall
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Partion wall up and framed along with rear bench seat. Under Hardi is lead. HArdi is thinset to lead (no screws or nails)
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Front side of shower framed with another bench seat at that end as well. Glass to go in that window opening to flow with the exterior window I framed in.
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What that front wall looked like b/4 I ripped it apart and framed for that large window I put in in the previous photo...btw...there was a partition well seperating those tow windows I removed. One side was a huge walk in closet and the other side was a small dated bathroom
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A shot of that wall from outside the shower
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Front wall of shower w/bench seat
_______________________________________
I'll try and take photos of the entire bathroom all tiled (pre grouted) and pre fixtures and pre floor tile....cause I ain't up to that yet...UGH....sucks workin' alone!!!
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You did the right thing Andy as far as I am concerned. Some of those guys over there sure can get pompous!
Not like us laid back BT'rs at all!
What is the minimum height above the subfloor at which you can set your drain flange?
I am curious as to how one might drop floor joists under the shower so as to not have a curb from the main bathroom into the shower. So if one assumes a 1/4 inch drop in the floor per foot all the way to the drain and then X for the minimum height above the subfloor at the drain, one would have to drop the joist by ??????????
IIRC, Kerdi specifies 1" of mud under the drain flange. It's in their material. If you go with their base, I'm not sure how thick it is at the drain. I'm sure they'd be happy to fill you in on this detail.
Local codes may require a minimum rise from the drain to the "overflow" line -- check before proceeding.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
For wood subfloors Mike is correct, Kerdi recommends a minimum of 1" of mortar under the edge of the flange.Code normally requires 2" of vertical between the top of the drain and the top of the curb, in a barrier free bath the top of the curb is the height of the bathroom floor.Floor pitch in the shower area is generally a minimum of 1/4" per foot and a max of 1/2" per foot.FHB had a "barrier free" Kerdi article too long ago.Mongo
Mongo, thanks for that post. Exactly what I wanted to know.
Just looked at the FHB article, Feb 2007.He recessed the framing in the wet area by 1-1/2" and built up the floor outside the wet area by 1-1/2".That 3" differential matches the dimensions I gave earlier...1" of mud under the flange, 2" pitch rise above it for a total of 3".Mongo
Oh yes, I did read that article.
The build up of the bath area seems like it would have been a problem as you transition out of the bath and into say the bedroom. The bath would be 1 1/2 inches above teh bedroom floor.
It's always sumptin', isn't it?I did a bath where I made a hump in the floor outside the shower. Essentially a "roll-over" curb. A couple inches high, ramping up and then down, over the course of a few feet of floor.
Mongo,
Great job on the Kerdi pictures for the walls. Do you have the kirdi pictures for the floor, especially how you built the dry pack and kerdi around the shower drain?
I don't have a whole lot of pics of doing the dry pack, were you looking for something more detailed than what I showed at this part in the thread?
The big thing with drypack is to set your perimeter elevation on the base of the wall (finish floor tile height minus tile/thinset/kerdi thickness), then pack in a 3-4" wide band of mud to that height elevation all the way around the perimeter of the shower wfloor.
Once you get that height set, then set your drain elevation. I set the drain in a slightly looser ring of mud, then add a ring of mud around the outside of the drain flange and pack that well.
Then it's simply a matter of filling in between the perimeter elevation and the drain elevation. Pack well, use a screed to get an even slope, and go at it.
I thought the pics that I included of kerdiing the floor and drain flange were fairly straightforward. The Kerdi drain has a fleece coating on it's surface that allows thinset to stick to it, so you bond the Kerdi right to the wide flange on the drain.
I roll out a sheet of Kerdi on the floor, mark the outline so I know how much of the floor to thinset for that sheet, mark the drain location in the sheet of Kerdi and cut it out, thinset the floor, then roll the membrane into the Kerdi and use the drywall knife to embed the kerdi in the thinset.
Hope that makes sense. There is a series of pics showing the floor being kerdied earlier in the thread as well.
If they don't load for you or if it's not described well enough, let me know.
Mongo
Hi Mongo,
I admit that I didn't read through every post of this thread, but did you mention what you used for the dry pack? was it just mortar mix?Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Everybody wants to know what I’m on...
What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…
...What are you on?"
- Lance Armstrong
For deck mud you can either mix your own at a 5:1 sand:portland ratio, using course or sharp sand. That's easy if you always have a pile of sand hanging around. Which I used to, but I usually only have sand piles to play in from Spring to Fall.
Another alternative which is easier for most, and it's what I did on this one since I did this in the winter, is to use bagged product.
I use Quikrete Topping Mix, it comes in a bag, available at most yards or Home Depot. Topping mix is a simple sand/portland cement mixture. To that 80-lb bag of topping mix I add about 40 pounds of sand, also bought in a bag from the yard or a big box.
The topping mix, cut by half with sand, gets you to an approximate 5:1.
So, an 80-lb sack of this...
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...plus 40 pounds from a bag of this...
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...and just enough water (no latex additives) to get it to stick in a ball when squeezed will do the trick.
Thoroughly dry mix the sand and topping mix before adding water.
Mongo
Any problem using just the topping, without the additional sand?
You can.Some guys go fat to 3:1, some lean it out to 7:1, but typical is 5:1.Just don't mix it wet or it'll flow into and clog your secondary drain holes in a 2-part clamping drain.Also, the beauty of a nice deck mud preslope is you can come back the next day and even though it's set, if required you can still shave it here and there with the edge of a trowel.That might not be possible with a fatter mixture.Mongo
I just did it without the sand, worked great!
"using course or sharp sand. "Can you use either COURSE or SHARP sand? Or does it need to be both COURSE AND SHARP.These terms have often confused me.Around here (Kansas City) the utility sand is river dredged. And thus is somewhat polished. But in course sizes..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
hmmm...Since I have no experience with slightly polished but still coarse river sand...<g>I'd say just don't use fine-grain play sand.Always coarse and never, ever polished,
Mongo
Mongo, enjoyed your thread!
I am hoping to do a Kerdi shower in my new construction house, but my problem is the plumbing (and drywall below in basement) are already done.
Would you elaborate on how to cut out the existing ABS clamping drain and adding/positioning the Kerdi drain? what is a cutting bit?
Cutting out and replacing a section of subfloor like you did here is possible if necessary since I want to center the drain a bit better. (Also have hydronic heat under the floor)
I have both the John Bridge books and am studying them but seem to gloss over this apparently common problem of needing to replace the drain.
Aaron....about 3 weeks late to the Kerdi method
I like to cut to a joinable section of abs or pvc using a dremel tool with a fiber reinforced cut-off wheel. Sometimes if I can get to a good section, I have used rubber clamping couplings with great success. OR...you could cut out a section of the subfloor between the joists and chase it to where you can join it properly, then repair the subfloor.
You can use a cutoff wheel like this:
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Chuck it on a drill (or Dremel) and cut the pipe from the inside.Get your elevation correct by adding a coupling to join your Kerdi Drain to the drain pipe. The Kerdi Drain tail is 2", so you may need an adapter if your plumbing is sized smaller.
Definitely dry fit the assembly to make sure you get the drain flange elevation correct, and that you can get the frisbee-sized drain flange level. When you glue it up you get one chance only.
You order the Kerdi Drain either in ABS or PVC, make sure you get the correct one, same material as your house's waste plumbing.
And chuck the cutoff bit in tightly. You don't want it slipping out of the chuck and having it go down the drain. Ugh.Being late to the Kerdi method is better than having never gotten to the Kerdi method! Welcome to Club Schluter!Mongo
So I started installing the first of my Kerdi tonight, starting with a small peice, a strip I cut for the corner where the wall meets the floor, like what the Kerdi website shows. Anyways, maybe my unmodified thinset wasn't wet enough, or I didn't let it sit long enough after adding water, but I had a hard time getting it to be all uniform and dark in color. Some of it was still light orange. I peeled it back and it looked like it had good and even coverage. At that point I troweled on some more thinset and reset it.
Also, I got some thinset on top of the kerdi I put in. I wiped of some excess with a wet rag but there was still some there. Will this effect the bond when I come back tommorow and put on the wall peices that will overlap the pieces I put in?
Thanks for the thread. Anthony
IME, your thinset has to be pretty wet -- wetter than for tile -- to get uniform bonding with Kerdi.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Anthony,First, do make sure that you mix long enough, then allow the thinset to properly slake. Then mix again. After slaking, often times additional water is needed to get it to the right consistency.Mixing time is important too. If mixing by hand guys often under mix thinset. I notice it more when grouting. Properly mixed grout flows on the wall, under mixed you have to work it around a bit more.A few random spots of Kerdi that don't turn dark is all right. What is your backer? If cement or fiber cement, wet the board prior to applying the thinset so the board doesn't prematurely suck the moisture out of the thinset.Thinset on top of the Kerdi won't affect anything. Like you did, just wipe it off. You just don't want it to dry with any thickness, then it could interfere with your tile laying flat.Mongo
Mongo, I am using Durock and the unmodified thinset from the Depot. I did what you said, also put on the thinset a little thicker, and got much better coverage, it worked great! I used a laminate J-roller to get good even coverage and that worked real nice. For a while I was thinking I can't do this, and I am going to find my shower leaks after tiling it, but now I feel much more confident about it. Thanks for replying to my email and for the advice!
Anthony
Glad it worked well for you. Welcome to the Kerdi Klub!
As another poster said, use an internal pipe saw. I got one recently at HD in the plumbing tool section -- it's basically a small saw blade on a shaft you mount in a drill. As for positioning the drain, the Kerdi drain comes with styrofoam supports to help position the drain at the correct height, and level. Order the drain kit before you cut your plumbing, and you shouldn't have any problems.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Thank you, that was the kind of detailed direction I needed. Will be replacing the drain for the "full Kerdi".
Aaron
No problem. BTW, on my first Kerdi job, it took me a while to realize that you need to mix your thinset for under the Kerdi somewhat wetter than you usually would for setting tile. (Nothing that I read said that.) That makes it a lot easier to get the stuff to bond. Also, I found a "J" roller makes quick work of sticking the Kerdi down tightly.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Wanted to add one thing.If you use bagged sand, go for the "All Purpose" which is a coarse sand, over the more available (at box stores at least) "Play Sand."The play sand is finer than the coarse sand. You could still use fine sand under Kerdi, but when using a 2-part clamping drain I'd opt for a coarser sand.Mongo
bump
This becomes an instant BT classic....
Mongo having to use a stepladder.
(If you've ever met Mongo, you know he is something like 8' 60" tall...)
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And in this one...
Hey Mongo, is that blood a sacrifice to the kerdi/shower gods, or does it improve adhesion ?
;o)
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H T R J
yer killin me, buddy!Hmmm...I don't remember bleeding during that project...and if that is indeed my blood I'd think I'd have remembered.Oh wait, I DO remember. It is blood, but it's not mine. And that reminds me, the other thing I like about Kerdi is that being a plastic membrane, is also prevents nasty smells from coming up through the floor. Not that there's any reason in particular one piece of the subfloor looks recently replaced. 'Nuff said...Hope all is well with you, Luka!Mongo
I thought the human sacrifice was supposed to go under the cornerstone ???!!?
H T R J
That's the first place they always look. You have to be a bit crafty these days.
Zoomed in on a pic of the fan...it's a NuTone.
Didn't fuly answer this before, but yes, the light bulbs are fully enclosed as the trim kit has a gasket on it to seal the housing from moisture generated in the shower.
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ABOVE: Pic showing enclosed lights. I just realized this picture shows the 12" ceiling mounted rainshower head and the wall-mounted hand held with the vertical 40" slide bar. I also ordered an extra-long hose for the hand held so that it can reach all corners of the shower for rinsing things down.
Mongo,
Absolutely gorgeous!
Excellent work!!
It makes me want to go tile something
Monggo,Thanx for this thread. I am doing a Kerdi shower for the first time but over sheetrock rather than CBU.Very nice work. Why is the Kerdi-Fix $20.00 a tube?Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Why is the Kerdi-Fix $20.00 a tube?
C'mon, let's not exaggerate, it's not $20 a tube! It's only $17.28 a tube. Plus shipping!
Expensive stuff, eh? I blanched the first time I saw it, too. I've never really looked into what it is and what it's worth, in terms of is there an alternative out there at a better price that performs equally well.
The good news it that a little tube goes a long way.
And thank goodness for that.
Mongo
Thanks for all thelooks and lessons Mongo. I will do mine so if I screw up its you I am calling, lol.
You know its funny I don't do a lot of tile work but enough to kepp me learning and interested. With the price of tile so high, it costs a lot for good detailed pieces and if working a scheme they always get you on the odd shaped pieces. Was this the reson you cut all your own from12x12". I was thin king of doing it myself but the edges kept me from going that way. How long does a tile take to re edge so to speak.
If you're going to cut a lot of tile, the first question is what are you cutting: ceramic or porcelain?Most wet saws, even the little $75 mini ones that they sell at the box stores, will do an adequate job with ceramic and soft stones like slate when they are properly set up. When you go to porcelain or a harder natural stone, you may need to upgrade your saw as well as your blade, as those can be tough on the smaller saws.Their somewhat inadequate water delivery system can cause excess friction during the cut, that can result in overheating and cracking of the tile, or premature wearing of the blade.If they are not properly tuned, in terms of the saw's fence or sliding tray table not being parallel to the blade, or if the blade has excessive arbor wobble, then it's terribly difficult to get predictable and repetitive cuts, and virtually impossible to shave a thin slice off the edge of a tile.As to cutting, if it's a tile with a simple surface glaze versus a tile with through-body color, that can be a player as well. With through body color, it's much easier to make your cut edges disappear.As to the carborundum stone, I know some guys that run an angle grinder across the cut edge of a tile to ease the cut edge. You can certainly do that, or you can even use a diamond profiling wheel should you have one. For me, on this tile, the carborundum stone worked perfectly well.As to how long it takes to cut? Again, it depends on the tile and the tool, and the cutting edge.For this I used a Felker 150 with a TM-7 blade. I find the Felker is adequate for most everything I do, and the TM-7 to be a great blade for harder porcelain.For this job, no matter how I layed it out, I just couldn't get square tile to work for what I considered to be an aethetically pleasing layout. But even with all the cutting I had virtually no tile waste due to cutting the larger squares into smaller modulars.Example, set the wet saw fence to 4", then slice 4" off the length of a 12" square tile. Then flip the 4 x 12 and cut 4" off its end. You just turned a 12" square into an 8 x 12, a 4 x 8, and a 4 x 4.One fence setting, two cuts, three tiles. Easy to repeat. That's <I>sort of</I> what I did here. Not exactly, but sort of.How long the two cuts take depends on the cutting ability of your saw. The amount of waste generated during cutting depends on how you portion your tiles, as well as how many tiles snap as you cut them due to an inadequate tool or improper cutting technique. The more you push your tools past their perfomance point, the more tile you'll trash. I had two tiles crack while I was cutting them, and they were two in succession. The dull "clunk" as it snapped made me think that both had an existing hairline crack while in the box. Maybe the box was dropped or something, as they both broke away from the cutline. Other than that I had no cracks at the cutline.A grinder would ease the edges quickly, a few seconds per edge. The hand held stone? Probably 15 seconds per edge.If your diamond blade dulls, renew it by dressing the blade. You can either buy a commercial dressing tool to treat the edge of the blade, or simply use a cheap concrete paver bought at the stone yard for a buck. Run the paver through the blade a few times and you've exposed new diamonds.Are you still awake?<g>Mongo
A few more poeple emailed asking about the lights. I found the trim kits on HD's website:
Shower can light trim kit.
HD sells them for $18.
Mongo
Mongo, that's beautiful work. When you think that most of us spend an essential part of the day there, what a great way to start a day. It has to put you in a good mood from the get go. Thanks for the great thread! "War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." Ambrose Bierce
Thanks and you're welcome!
Thanks. i think I am ready, lol.
Stoning the edges at 15 per side sounds ok to me. I will attempt it on my own. My saw is up to snuff so easing the edges after the cuts was my main concern. Thanks for all the help.
Fantastic! The only thing I could think to improve it would be radiant tubing in the walls & floor.
Just amazing work and a great thread!
[edit] Is there radiant heat under that floor?!
jt8
"The flower that follows the sun does so even on cloudy days."--Robert Leighton
Edited 3/9/2007 2:35 pm by JohnT8
Yessir.
Radiant is indeed under the floor tiles, but not in the walls. Never found that to be necessary, comfort-wise.
I think one of the added benefits of RFH under the tiles in larger showers like this is that it helps in drying the floor tile.
Mongo
Wouldnt you know it Mongo! I got a friend who wants me to install a steam shower set up / nice tile and all. How do I comare and sell the kerdi shower against the traditional methods. Also they want under tile electric mats in the whole bathroom that I will refinish. It may be a friend but its a job that I will be paid for by time and materials. I want a careful approach that will last a lifetime for these folks. She is a desiner with no prior knowledge of Kerdi.
While there are various ways, and differing product lines, that can be used to "skin this cat", I'll try to simplify:For the walls in the unit, I'll try to compare these two basic structure choices:
1) framing/visqueen/CB/tile or
2) framing/CB or drywall/Kerdi/tileThe main difference in the walls is the choice and location of vapor barrier, Kerdi vs visqueen:
- Kerdi will go in front of the backer board, between the backer and the tile. Visqueen will go behind the backer, between it and the framing.
- Using Kerdi may add a few hours to building your walls, but it is offset by eliminating the time of doing the visqueen between the backer and the framing.
- Kerdi will be about $1 a sqft more in material cost over visqueen.The sub-choice in the walls, if using Kerdi, is if you use drywall instead of CB behind the Kerdi. Drywall will save you time in installation over cement board, thus saving you a bit of labor, as well as cost in materials. Don't forget saving the cost of cement board screws vs the negligible cost of drywall screws.For the pan, "traditional" construction vs Kerdi construction from the subfloor to tile is:
1) slipsheet/diamond lathe/deckmud preslope/CPE or CPVC membrane/deckmud tile base/tile
2) Slipsheet/diamond lathe/deckmud preslope/Kerdi/tile- Material costs for the two pans wlll be similar, as the cost of the traditional (CPE, second layer of deckmud, and clamping drain) is fairly equivalent to the cost of the Kerdi (Kerdi membrane and Kerdi Drain).
- Labor is different. The Kerdi installation will go quite a bit faster due to not having to mess with the difficulties of the CPE membrane (seaming, folding corners, notching framing to hide the thickness built-up corners, clamping drain) and only needing one layer of deckmud with the Kerdi instead of two with the CPE.If you use a Kerdi pan instead of a deck mud preslope, that'll save you time, but the materials (Kerdi pan vs deck mud) will be a little bit more. A Kerdi drain costs more than a 2-part clamping drain.If your shower is perfectly sized to accept a Kerdi pan, that pan can be a big time saver. Modifications to fit the pan to an odd-sized shower, either by cutting the pan down, or by adding additional mud around the perimeter of the pan, can cost time in installation as well as making tiem when tiling. You may have to make detailed height adjustment cuts in the bottom course of wall tile to make up for differences in height elevation around the altered pan's perimeter.A Kerdi pan vs a traditional pan assembly (CPE or CPVC membrane between two layer of deck mud) will be MUCH faster, saving labor.Custom niches? Some say redguard is easier, some say Kerdi. I vote MUCH easier with Kerdi. With traditional you'd still need a topical liquid membrane (Redguard, for example) applied all over the niche as well as on the cement board around the opening of the niche. The big thing there is peace-of-mind. I'd be worried that I missed a pinhole with the roll-on, whereas I know the Kerdi is definitely water tight.Ready-made niches? For Kerdi, use Kerdifix to seal the membrane to the flange of the niche. For traditional, use a topical liquid membrane (RedGuard) on the face of the cement board around the perimeter of a ready-made niche opening.So, lots of things to roll around.Overall?Peace-of-mind and knowing that you didn't screw up the installation or waterproofing details? Go Kerdi.Overall speed of installation? Go Kerdi.Ease when doing niches? Custom niches are MUCH easier with Kerdi, even ready-made niches are easier with Kerdi.Overall Cost?
- Materials, Kerdi is more expensive.
- Labor, traditional is more time consuming.
- Combining labor and materials? Depends on the size/complexity of the shower, but I can see arguments where either is faster and/or less expensive than the other, but overall, I'll just call it a wash.Not wanting to be afraid of deep wetting of the structure due to the steam shower? Go Kerdi.Concern about moisture/mold abatement issues with todays construction methods? Traditional, which can allow deep wetting, especially of the pan's preslope, versus Kerdi, which only allows topical wetting? Go Kerdi.Being able to tile the walls/ceilings first without concerns of damaging the floor membrane or tile? With traditional, the CPE membrane had to be installed and set behind the wall backer, so you'll be tiling the walls/ceilings with the floor membrane already in. That makes the membrane susceptible to damage. With Kerdi, you can do the walls/ceilings while the floor is still bare subfloor, then once all else is done you can do your pan preslope, kerdi membrane, and tile the floor. Kerdi wins.Waterproofing built-in benches or built-in foot rests? Kerdi wins.A couple of things. In a steam shower, you'll probably want room for a bench or seat inside the shower. Plan accordingly.In a steam shower, you do not want a flat ceiling. You'll want to slope the ceiling AWAY from the seating area, or away from the area where the occupant will be. Steam will condense on the cool tile ceiling and if the ceiling is flat, cold condensate will rain down anywhere or everywhere. Sloping the ceiling controls the cooler drops of condensate, causing them to roll down the slope to another spot in the shower so they don't drip down on the occupant. Consider the effect the sloped ceiling will have on the overall design of the shower itself and if it will affect the tile layout, etc.Know what the shower will be built of (finish materials) prior to getting a steam generator. Generators are sized on the physical size of the shower as well as the materials that make up the walls of the shower. Different materials absorb more heat than others.The steam shower door needs to be gasketed to prevent steam from leaving the shower and damaging finish surfaces outside of the shower.Lots of other options, other will surely weigh in with other ideas, but if I were doing a shower in my mother's house, I'd do Kerdi.And yes, I love my Mom!MongoEdited to re-write and re-format some of the text.
Edited 3/12/2007 10:16 am ET by Mongo
Ok we start in three to four weeks. Be up and ready to go by 7am each morning. I'll take care of coffee and B>E>C you take care of the job! LOL Thanks a lot for the time of putting that together Mongo. I'll sell it like a pro now. I really like the piece of mind using Kerdi because it is a steam shower. I'll look into shower doors in stock and build the shower unit to fit therby saving the cost of custom doors.
Don't forget to follow up with your customer after the installation is finished...You'll have to test out and verify the quality and longevity of your work by having the right to take a steam shower every now and then.Hope the project goes well.
Great illustrated how-to thread, Mongo! Thanks!
But what I liked even more was your summary piece about the cost of a Kerdi system for walls, drain, and floor, versus the old "tried but not so true" waterproofing.
Sort of makes me wonder why anyone would not choose and use Schluter's products when doing a tiled shower, whether steam or not.
Gene, you bum!You have me hooked on sketchup! My biggest problem is I need a few days to run through the tutorials, but I'm determined to get decent enough at it for some design work.Thanks for the kind words about this thread.Mongo
Hey, Mongo! Go crazy with SU!
Here is a big tip. Use layers to place elements you want to separate out so you can turn on an off the layer to either view or hide things.
Here is another one. A biggie. Draw everything, everything, on layer zero, then group, and use layer control to move the groups to the layer of your choice. There is a ruby you can download that makes moving things to another layer a snap. Much faster than otherwise.
And finally, group everything or make components of things. Never leave anything ungrouped or un-componentized, unless you want to "stick" more elements to your constructions.
I'll be sure to get right on that...right after I master drawing straight lines!<g>Mongo
Hanging the Kerdi:
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ABOVE: Misting the walls prior to applying thinset. I thoroughly mist the walls, then I mix the thinset. While the thinset is slaking, I cut my Kerdi to size, then lightly mist the wall a second time.
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ABOVE: Working quickly, I flat trowel the thinset on the wall, using my Sharpie marks as a guide. I work bottom-to-top, as I find the incandescent lighting can accelerate the thinset skinning over.<!---->
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ABOVE: Once flat troweling is done, I comb the thinset with the notched edge of the trowel, again working bottom-to-top.
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ABOVE: I quickly get the Kerdi over the combed thinset, I hold it plumb, then lightly run my hands across the top of the sheet, then down the middle of the sheet. Just enough to adhere it to the thinset. I then work top-to-bottom and run my hands from the center of the sheet to the edges, lightly bedding the Kerdi in the thinset.
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ABOVE: Kerdi is bright orange. Once it's bedded in the thinnset, it turns a muddied brownish-orange. After hand setting the sheet, I use a 4" taping knife to thoroughly embed the Kerdi in the thinset. I run the knife at a low angle, with a bit of pressure, working in the same manner that I initially set it woth my hands...top-to-bottom, and center-to-edges.
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ABOVE: Process repeated for second sheet. Kerdi has printed lines 2" (50mm) from the edge of the membrane to assist in getting the proper overlap. this shot shows the second sheet going up, you can see the sheet going from bright orange to muddied orange as I work it into the thinset.
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ABOVE: This bright orange spot indicates no thinset behind this part of membrane. I'll use the taping knife to draw some thinset from adjacent areas to this spot.
Sorry to interupt but i'll be trying my own shower install much like the one your working on. What did you use behind the hardi and wonder . Was it plastic over f.b insulation or is your wonderboard / kerdi / thinset your vapor barrier? Also is the kerdi product water proof after install?
Kerdi is the vapor barrier, so you don't need another behind it. On exterior walls you want a contiunuous VB for your house's envelope (consider your climate), so that needs to be taken into consideration on its own.On this shower I do have the door jambs wrapped in tar paper, then cement board over the felt, as I wasn't sure if I'd wrap the door jambs with Kerdi or not. In the end I did.Yes, Kerdi by itself is waterproof. It's a polyethylene film with a "spun fleece" coating, the coating allows the thinset to stick.That's the beauty of having the membrane right behind your tile. The only thing in a Kerdi shower that can get wet is the tile, the grout, and the thinset.No deep wetting of the cement board in the walls, or of the drypack in the shower pan.Topical wetting only means fast drying times, with virtually zero chance of mold/mildew, etc.If you're doing a steam shower, don't forget to cement board and Kerdi the ceiling as well.Yes, for those that choose to do it Kerdi CAN be installed over gypsum board. I simply choose to continue using cement board as a tile backer.MongoEdited four pour speling.
Edited 3/5/2007 7:39 pm ET by Mongo
Niche, Part One:
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ABOVE: Niche shelves are pitched for drainage.
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ABOVE: This shows two things. First, you can run the membrane through a corner as shown in this picture. Just make sure that your corners are plumb...which, in a shower, they sure as heck better be...so that the plumbness of the sheet isn't thrown off as it transitions to the next wall. Back to the niche. For now I run the membrane right over the face of the niche, I'll come back in a bit and...
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ABOVE: ...slice through the membrane with a sharp utility knife.
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ABOVE: Prior to applying thinset to the inside of the niche, I dry fit the membrane flaps inside the niche to make sure they fit well.
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ABOVE: Flaps bedded to the back of the niche with thinset.
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ABOVE: Left side done same as the right side.
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ABOVE: I cut a piece of Kerdi as wide as the bakc wall of the niche, and long enough to start above the niche opening, run through the niche, and run out the bottom of the niche. Dry fit.
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ABOVE: Thinset.
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ABOVE: When working on inside corners, use a tool in each hand. Use the edge of one tool (I use a trowel) to hold the Kerdi membrane in the inside corner, and the other tool (my drywall knife) to bed the Kerdi in the thinset. Were you to just use one tool, you'd pull the membrane out of the inside corner. Frustrating and time consuming, to say the least.
I'll come back and do the niche corners later.
Another way to do a corner:
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ABOVE: With the previous corner, I ran the membrane through the corner, from one wall to another. With this corner, I held the sheet on each wall about 1" or so off the inside corner.
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ABOVE: I cut a length of Kerdi about 8" wide, enough to span the two inches of naked cement board in the inside corner and then run 3" over the already hung membrane on each adjacent wall. This ensures that I meet the 2" minimum overlap. Regular Kerdi is 8 mils thick. Kerdi-Band, a product designed for just this purpose...spanning from one sheet to another...is 4 mils thick. Most of the time I use regular Kerdi for corners like this. It depends on your ability to cope with the thickness of additional layers of material as you set the tile. For the materials I was using in this shower, the added thickness of Kerdi would not be a problem. Anyhow...thinset the conrer and comb it out...
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ABOVE: Crease the sheet down the middle, then hang it in the corner...
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ABOVE: Bed one side in the thinset, bringing the excess out through the overlap...
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ABOVE: Then the other side.
Back to the niche...When you buy a Kerdi Drain, a few preformed corners come included with the drain. Usually. Some resellers have been known to open the drain box and remove the corners and the installation DVD and sell them separately. The preformed corners can also be purchased from Schluter. Anyhows...
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ABOVE: This shows one type of preformed corner dry set on the edge of the niche.
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ABOVE: And here's another type of preformed corner set on top of the previously set piece. Here it's uysed as an inside corner. Note that this corner piece could be flipped over to cover an outside corner, too.
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ABOVE: Trowel, then comb the thinset. Then the dreaded two-tool method strikes again, the edge of the trowel is used to hold the Kerdi piece in the corner while the drywall knife is used to bed the corner piece into the thinset. Note the thermally fused seam on this piece, the seam that runs away from the trowel at a 45-degree angle. The fused seam results in a slight ridge or bump along the length of the seam. That can sometimes be a pain as the raised seam can catch on the trowel and it can pull the piece out of the thinet.
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ABOVE: Hallah-freakin-lu-yah. The niche is done.
One thing to note is that the preformed corners are essentially designed for perfect 90-degree corners, though they can be tweaked a bit. In the case of the niche, where the shelf is slightly pitched, you do have to work the corner piece a bit to get it to lay flat on all three walls.
Minor quibbles, but hey, it is what it is.
Overall, the preformed corners are handy, but expensive. I cut my own corner pieces for the floor, I'll show those later on. Those pics are on the other computer, so it may be a bit before I get to them...
Mongo
Very cool. Love the pics. I fell in love with Kerdi a couple of years ago now. I wish more folks took the time to use it.Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
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Punch me in the nose. Wouldn't have been better to lap the top flap under the main sheet of material?
Nice looking work, you are very meticulous.[email protected]
WHICH content will be free, of course; WHICH content will require registration; but WHICH content will be available only to members of FineHomebuilding.com.???
Punch me in the nose. Wouldn't have been better to lap the top flap under the main sheet of material?
Nice looking work, you are very meticulous.
Eric,
Theoretically, yes, it would have been.
But realize that I would have been peeling and resetting the membrane on the niche wall as I did the top (niche membrane tucked behind the wall membrane) and bottom (wall membrane tucked behind the niche membrane) of the niche.
But that's theory. Remember, with a minimum 2" membrane overlap, water isn't going to penetrate any properly overlapped and thinsetted seam.
You'll see the same overlapping contradiction when I get to the floor. I'll adhere the floor membrane to the drypack base, then use 8" wide pieces to span the floor to the wall. Essentially the floor transition piece will be on top of the wall membrane.
Normally, that'd violate the "follow the drop of water" scenario, but it's not a problem with Kerdi.
Mongo
Normally, that'd violate the "follow the drop of water" scenario, but it's not a problem with Kerdi.
That's what I thought. I don't recall lapping being an issue when looking at the video.
Thanks for the response.[email protected]
WHICH content will be free, of course; WHICH content will require registration; but WHICH content will be available only to members of FineHomebuilding.com.???
Ok Mongo now for the big question! About how much would you charge for a project like this.
Labor=____ per square ft?
Materials= _____ per square ft?
Would help me in my choices.
Durock...12 sheets at $9.99 eachTile...250 sf @ $11.99/sfGrout and caulk...$145Assorted trowels, sponges, rags, tape...$66.95The opportunity to show off for one's friends on Breaktime...........priceless.
11.99 per ft for tile? are they 18k gold plated? Thats $3000 just purchase the tile!
You haven't been to a tile store in a while, huh?Yeah, there is plenty of stuff at the Despot that is $2-5 a ft, but the premium stuff, lookout.
Well only about 50 tile jobs in the last 4 years. Not much really. I don't think I have seen anything that high in all that time but I guess its out there.
Especially when you get into the natural stones. Limestones, slates, etc. Which it looks like Mongo is using here.
They are sometimes easier to work with becauce you can cut them and not worry about end pieces. Just dress the edges as shown.
It was just a "MasterCard" joke. But tile like that is easy to find. I've paid more for granite tile, for example. (Used judiciously in small amounts.)
Um, excuse me, I'm Mongo's new agent. He is booked thru 2007 and 2008. If you want to talk pricing, send us a non-refundable retainer in the amount of $10,000 and we'll get back to you. It might take a few minutes because he's headed off to do the Sultan of Oman's new castle.
Nice "almost" workin with ya.
I spent a bit of time in the Middle East back in '91.
I'm not going back.<g>
Mongo
Back to Kerdi.
Based on a few emails I'd thought I'd mention this again here.
You can use preformed corners to minimize the number of Kerdi layers. I used preformed in some areas, and in other areas I didn't use preformed, to show both methods.
And yes, I thought I'd written this somewhere in the text in an earlier post, but small tiles, mosaics, etc, can be more prone to telegraphing variations in substrate (or Kerdi layer) height.
Mongo
Materials can be vary quite a bit. As others have written, tile can run a couple bucks a foot to the highest I've seen, $72. You don't want to botch a cut on the latter.
Labor? That also depends. Size of tiles installed, the type of tile/stone, full tiles or a lot of cuts. Too many variable for a single price per foot.
Mongo
Edited 3/9/2007 12:10 pm ET by Mongo
Great thread Mongo. Your shower is absolutly gorgous!
Amazes me how much "good" tile cost now a days...I think in retrospect its gone up considerably...besides being just the times. Must mean more people appreciate tile work more than ever before/And glass tile??? Yowza...you really must appreciate tile to afford those bad boys not to mention the cost to install them.
I had an upscale tile rep here the other day giving me literature for my customers and put me in their acct. The tiles this company "makes" is beyond words..and some tiles that look like WOOD?? Have you seen those before? They came 6"x 24".That was new to me and they don't look like cheap crap either.
I'll be back to finishing my Kerdi shower today. Had to wait two weeks for Toolking to get me my wet saw blade so I went and finished the first bathroom I started in this house four years ago. Finally.
One thing I have to add to your list for a "first time" Kerdi user (me) is that it takes a lot more than just a cpl of more hours that you mentioned. I can see how it would be only a cpl of more hours after the first cpl of jobs but initially its a whole new ball game...At least it was for me. I just may be one of the short bus kids...lol. Getting all the corners just right. Applying just the right amt of mud behind the fabric and troweling it out evenly takes more time to get it right than one might think. mainly because you can't see it behind the fabric like you can under a tile. Then theres some complex corners to deal with like I had around my curved bench seat..yada yada yada.
So...I can really appreciate all that went into that shower you did..anddddddddd you took all those pictures to boot! Hope you add that to your website if you have one. Its something you should think about doing. It shows how much you care and sets you apart from the rest of the crowd.
Heres a few of shots of the non-kerdi bathroom I just finished...note the window if you can..I had to fir that low wall out from four inches on top to nothing on the bottom. Thats how crooked this house is..lol..you can see it only at the window so now I have a buncha plants on the sill...lol...btw...speaking of this non-kerdi bathroom I did...before I used the kerdi on the bathroom I'll be working on today again I did ask myself weather or not it'd be worth spending the extra time and money using the stuff...now after I've used it I ask myself why I ever did a shower/bath without it...lol.
Once again...great work dude!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFexyK8J1Iw
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
andy, that looks excellent! It's the unexpected details that make a room, and a nice one is the "wave" on the tub apron, next to the toilet.I've framed a front wall on a tub before, leaving an arched opening to go through to step into the tub. I really like your detail.Your room looks great, scribing and building straight lines onto the curved surfaces of an old home is never easy.Nice!Mongo
Hi Mongo,
As a wallpaper hanger from long ago you did a fine job hanging the wall covering. Now to my question? How or what did you cover the shower pan with. I am going to do a shower that is 3"W x 5"L with a shower seat in one end. I have a stem wall at the end were the seat is. Covering all the wall with the Kerdi method looks great but I'm lost on the floor. Do you have any pics and please explain the process. Thanks for the info in advance.
Thanks,
Cheviot
http://www.schluter.com/p/content/ShowerBrochure06.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFexyK8J1Iw
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
cheviot,
Did you see these pics of the floor construction?
The floor, from subfloor up, was:
subfloor
slip sheet (use tar paper or visqueen)
metal mesh (use expanded diamond or hardware cloth)
Preslope dry pack
Kerdi
Thinset
Tile
If you use a Kerdi presloped foam tray on the floor, thinset the tray to the floor, then thinset the kerdi to the presloped top surface of the tray.
I may be misunderstanding what you're asking, feel free to slap me upside the head if I've got it wrong.
Mongo
Late to this thread,Bravo, fantastic job and excellent documentation. Definately worthy an article if not a chapter of a book. Thanks for posting all the pics.
thank you sir!
Could you perhaps do the same tutorial for auto bodywork for repairing a vintage Triumph ;-)
When I was in the Air Force, a buddy of mine had an old triumph that he had been trailering around with him whenever he moved. Always tinkering, but never making any true progress.He was getting ready to be reassigned and decided to ditch the car.After getting permission from the weapons range, we towed it out to the range, pulled the engine (to minimize riccochets), and set it up in the strafe pits.We flew out the next day in a couple of A-10s and pummelled the car with 30mm.Drove back out to the range the next day and pulled it out of the strafe pit. Piece by piece.Hope your project works out better than his!Mongo
Now that's an idea.....Probably save me a bundle in the long run, might even be able to afford Kerdi next time around!
Mongo,
Thank you. You covered all that I was asking for. Now I just have to locate a dealer of the Kerdi products. Thanks
Cheviot
If you cannot get it locally you can get everything you need from one of the online suppliers, who can UPS it right to your door.
Often times I order my Kerdi and Ditra from Tile Protection.
Hey Mongo what do you thik of these? I am looking into the idea for my shower coming up as a way to save some energy and time.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220087806569&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=012
The Kerdi trays are great, as long as you get the plumbing accurately lined up with the tray's hole.If the shower is larger than the tray, you can fill in the perimeter with deck mud to match the pitch of the tray.If the shower is smaller than the tray, you can cut the tray down, but it's best if you can trim equal amounts off opposite edges of the tray to maintain symettry of height around the perimeter of of the floor.If you have to trim unequally, you'll have very minor differentials in the thickness at the edge of the tray's four sides. Nothing that can't be dealt with.They save a LOT of time, just thinset them to the floor and thinset the Kerdi to the tray. The drain installation couldn't be more simple.If you haven't seen, they also have foam curbs. Thinset the tray. Thinset the curb. Kerdi. Tile.Those trays save several hours of labor.Mongo
I wish I had known about all this stuff BEFORE I started my house....
Jon, No worries...just sell and start over!Mongo
Thanks for the word!
Mongo,
If using the Kerdi tray (shower pan), I would get the 72x72 unit, trim it down to 36x59 with the drain in center. You stated:
"If you have to trim unequally, you'll have very minor differentials in the thickness at the edge of the tray's four sides. Nothing that can't be dealt with"
How would one deal with this? Also, do you have any closeups of the tile around the niche? Did you use bullnose on the inside side pieces?
When tiling the floor, do I have to use a floor tile, 2x2 in my case, up the wall or can I run the wall tile all the down to the floor? Also, how do I know where do I start the wall tile at?
Like everyone else has said, great thread and thanks so much for answering the questions! I can't wait to buil dmy shower with Schluter, hopefully within a month.
I have to head out to my daughter's lacrosse game, I'll post later tonight...
I just finished a 48" x 38" shower in my house. I used the pre made based from Kerdi (48 x 48) and trimmed it down. If I had to do it again, I would choose to build my own base (using the Kerdi drain), it's really not that hard after you start working with cement products.
I laid the floor tile first, then the bottom border. I had to cut the pieces to fit (taper). Nobody notices it and all water drains to the drain.....here's a few pictures. In the end, it only took an hour or so to cut the green tiles.
You can see the slight dip from left to center and right to center on the back wall, that's because it's 38" from front to back and 48" side to side:
View ImageAnd here is where I put the tile up making the top edge level:View ImageHere is the side that is level because it's at the end of the 48" run (24" from drain):View Image
You stated: "If you have to trim unequally, you'll have very minor differentials in the thickness at the edge of the tray's four sides. Nothing that can't be dealt with"
How would one deal with this?
I'd do it just as Paul did in his previous post. I'd strike a level "base line" on all four walls around the perimeter of the shower. The height of the base line would be one tile height above the lowest part of the pan's perimeter.
Then simply "fill in" your bottom course of wall tile. Some tile mid-course will be full height, but as you get to the corners you'll have to taper them as the distance between the pan and the base line decreases. Think of it as scribing baseboard to the floor in a house with wavey floors.
I have seen people say that if the differential wasn't much, 1/8th or so, that they'd ignore it and just have more caulk at the wall/floor intersection. Personally? I think that'd look nasty.
Others have said that if they get up to 1/4" differential or so that they'd build up the thickness of the thinset on the floor when setting the outside perimeter of floor tile to bring the outside perimeter of floor tile up to level all around the floor. I prefer to not do that, as thinset isn't supposed to be used as "thickset", and besides, now you're putting more water-absorbing material above the Kerdi.
So, I'd recommend doing what Paul did. Taper the bottom of the bottom course of wall tile and run the rest of the wall as you normally would.
"Did you use bullnose on the inside side pieces?" Nope, didn't use bullnose, but I did ease the edges with a carborundum stone and some with a grinder. I also mitered most of the tiles that make up outside corners in the shower. Then I'd ever-so-slightly ease the sharp 90-degree edge with a light touch from a diamond blade on the grinder. Again, these were through-color tiles, so the surface color went through the body of the tile.
"When tiling the floor, do I have to use a floor tile, 2x2 in my case, up the wall or can I run the wall tile all the down to the floor?" I'm slightly lost on this, not quite sure what you're asking. Now some tiles are rated as "floor tile" others are not. If that's what you're asking, then wall rated tiles will typically just be used on walls. Floor rated tiles can be used on floors or walls.
If that was a design question, then you can do whatever you want. 2x2's only on the floor, and another tile only on the wall. Or 2x2's on the floor and then turn them up the wall a bit, then transition to wall tiles. Your choice.
"Also, how do I know where do I start the wall tile at?" Oops. Now I know I'm lost. I'm not certain what you're asking, so I'll drone on for a bit:
1) You can start the wall tile right at the floor/wall intersection.
2) You can do what I did, which is to turn the bottom course of wall tile into a "baseboard" using the floor tile. I did that for a couple of reasons, mostly doing with wall tile layout. I wanted the wall grout lines to hit the wall niche at a certain height so I could carry the black deco band through the niche. I put the niche at a comfortable height, but I also put it at a height to help me achieve my design goal. The black "baseboard" helped achieve those layout lines. Were the black baseboard the same ivory tile as the rest of the wall, it'd look dumb haivng a half-height tile at the bottom of the wall.
I'm not certain I understand what you're asking, so ask again if I missed your intent.
Best, Mongo
Thanks Mongo, you thoroughly did answer all my questions!
And thanks Paul too for the pictures showing the cut Kerdi base.
Much appreciated, Anthony
Mongo,
I'm a few months late responding to this post, but I did want to commend you on a very nice piece of work.
I just received a kerdi shower kit today (32x60) for my very first tiling job. I'm a diy'er and never did tile before. The kit came with no instructions at all, so I browsed the archives and found your exceptional entry. The terrific tutorial you provided should prove to be very helpful to me. I know it was a painstaking process to photograph and document so many steps just to help educate others. I truly respect and appreciate that sacrifice.
Great job, my friend!
Michael
New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
besides Mongos real nice photo essay are:
PDF instructions below from Schluter
http://www.schluter.com/media/brochures/schlueter_bro_showersystems_qb.pdf
Five different videos from Schluter in the link below
http://www.schluter.com/8_4_kerdi_shower_kit.aspx
now you have no excuses : )
"the most amazing buddhist prayer song I have ever heard during my trip through the hidden mystique countries like Nepal and India. I've heard it playing everywhere in Kathmandu - buses, ashrams, hotels,streets, etc... "author unknown
how it sounds^-->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2shskL0AYuE
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Thanks. I had seen those links before, but I was having trouble relocating them.
Now, where did I leave my tools...New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
Michael, Thanks for the kind words.Vest of luck with your project!Mongo
Hey Mongo,
I've been following this project from awhile back, but now that it's coming closer to reality I was wondering if you ever fessed up to the price of the Kerdi stuff? I know you mentioned tile and such, and said this system is a bit more expensive than the standard waterproofing treatment...but you got any $ figures?
Also, since we're both in CT...where did you buy it from?Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Everybody wants to know what I’m on...
What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…
...What are you on?"
- Lance Armstrong
I got a Kerdi kit for a 4x4' shower from ebay for around $400. It came with the pan, curb, drain assembly, more than enough Kerdi membrane to do three sides, and two rolls of Kerdi band (for seams), only one of which I opened. There was also a dvd which I did not watch (I bought John Bridge's Kerdi ebook for $10 - highly recommended). Check ebay.The raw material costs are indisputably more, but I think it's worth it.
I did a Kerdi shower with a mud bed. I don't know how much I didn't save, but I am a Kerdi convert. Ditra as well. No more breathing CBU dust.
Mongo did do a cost comparison analysis in the thread. Youv'e gotta read the whole thread.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Justin,
I bought mail order from Tile Protection.
I had a need for Kerdi and Ditra, so I bought a 3-pack of each from them. With no shipping, the cost advantage was substantial enough to warrant it...for the 6 rolls I think it was about $400 less than buying locally.
Worth it to me.
For this shower, by going Kerdi I saved the visqueen and CPVC or CPE membrame. This membrane would have had to been seamed and glued. I saved about $110 by using Kerdi.
I used cement board, but I could have used drywall. I could have saved about $85 by using drywall. But remember, I used cement board. Regardless, I'll count that as a "Kerdi Savings" in the end tally, as most people go over drywall.
The Kerdi membrane for this 5' by 8' shower was a little less than one roll. The Kerdi membrane cost me $325 for this shower. I didn't buy Kerdi Band, I used strips of Kerdi cut from the roll.
Kerdi Drain cost about $70 more than a 2-part clamping drain.
Kerdi Fix cost $17.
Thinset? I guess I can say the the thinset was a wash. I needed more thinset (kerdi to substrate, tile to kerdi) than I would have needed with conventional construction (tile to cement board only) but I use dryset or a lightly modified thinset with Kerdi versus a more expensive highly modified thinset that I would have used with conventional.
The preslope was a wash, I drypacked it.
I'm probably forgetting something in the accounting process, but with this rough recall I potentially could have omitted $195 of expense by using Kerdi, but the membrane and drain cost me an additional $410.
So the Kerdi shower cost an additional $215. I did buy a few packs of preformed corners, so let's say it cost an additional $235.
Now I'm nitpicking, but without the Kerdi I would have needed RedGuard to waterproof the niche. Back down to $215.
For this 5' by 8' shower with 8' high walls, using Kerdi over drywall versus the more conventional tile over cement board with a drypack preslope, the Kerdi would cost an additional $215-ish.
Using cement board instead of drywall as the Kerdi backer, we're looking at Kerdi costing about $300 more than conventional.
A reasonable estimate, but an estimate nonetheless. If you really want some hard numbers I can look through the paperwork.
One area where Kerdi saves time is the floor. With Kerdi you only need the drypack preslope. Not the preslope, then CPVC membrane, then another layer of drypack over that. That alone saves a half-day labor.
Were you to go with a foam presloped Kerdi Tray, the tray may cost you, but you just saved an entire day's labor over the conventional drypack preslope/CPVC membrane/tiling layer of mud method.
Best, Mongo
Huh?
(g)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
I must learn to type less.<sigh>
LOL...luv ya man..Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
haha - wow! Thanks!Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Everybody wants to know what I’m on...
What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…
...What are you on?"
- Lance Armstrong
I sure hope that they can get the photos back on all of these threads. Kinda useless with out them not to mention the disrespect to the original posters.
Go to JohnBridge.com and download the Kerdi Shower Book ($10 IIRC)Invaluable.
shower pics
Mongo,
Do you have a site where the kerdi showere pics can be seen?
Thanks,
Lou