I just ripped out my sister in laws shower. 1 1/2 years old. The contractor used the Kerdi system and there is a Schluter drain at the bottom (have not ripped that out yet) but the system leaked all over the place.
As best i could tell, there were areas in the Kerdi where it was either cut or butted together. (not overlapped) There were spots were I could not find any Kerdi at all (one spot 2″ square and another 6″x8″)
Its pretty clear that the guy put the stuff in all wrong but now I gotta completely rebuild it and the shower heads constantly beat on the shower walls and caps.
What is everyones experience with the stuff. If done right, is it really the cat’s meow? I ‘ve always used vinyl and durrock (or Hardi) and knock wood, never had any issues.
Help I want to make sure that when I rebuild it, it is permanent.
Replies
The Kerdi system did not fail. The gorilla that installed it failed.
Please find a way to re-title the thread.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
I agree. Re-title it!
I have used Kerdi and it is a fantastic product, but like anything else it must be used correctly.
Thats the info I want to know but never used it so want to get some feedback from people.
I've put in one Kerdi shower, and while I did everything by the book it made the proverbial hair stand up on the back of my neck a little. It's one of those things that makes ya' wonder.... can this be right?
Hi Gene--
Maybe it is just me but to work with the Kerdi system here for a 5x5 shower without the pan (they don't make one that big apparently), it is about 600$.
Call me cheap, but I believe that I can put a torch down rubber membrane up the entire wall for less than 100$ and not end up with leaks either.
The math just isn't working for me. I've delayed this one for that reason.
I am putting in Travertine floor to ceiling with a rain shower head.
Love to get your advice on this one.
Please tell me it's worth the money because I am having a hard time justifying the money for some tape together membrane a few sheets of plastic with square dimples.
(part of my reticence may have to do with Mike Holmess Loving the stuff... I know how much he doesn't know about my expertise so I don't really trust much he promotes).
L GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Hey,
We talked on the phone just wondering if you had put that package in the mail for me regarding deck contracting.
Sorry to hijack the thread guys.
BTW Kerdi is great stuff. But we use typar and ice and water shield, all those new-fangled building materials. I believe any product can and will fail when installed improperly however when done properly it is better than anything else.
"Maybe it is just me but to work with the Kerdi system here for a 5x5 shower without the pan (they don't make one that big apparently), it is about 600$."
They do make a 5'x5' pan (actually it's 6'x6'). Unless maybe you were talking in metric.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
>>Call me cheap, but I believe that I can put a torch down rubber membrane up the entire wall for less than 100$ and not end up with leaks either.
Maybe, but then what are you going to do, screw a layer of Hardibacker over the rubber? Or thinset directly to the rubber??
There are some really nice features of the Kerdi system, like the really bitchin' drain that goes with it, the preformed corners you can buy, and the fact that there is nothing behind the tile to soak up moisture (except the thinset, or course).
The shower I did is 3x4x8' high and the materials cost about $350, with some left over. Nothing's cheap, is it?
Ok, I believe you.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Just an aside-the corners are included in the drain kit.
We did all the baths and kitchen, and slate floor with Schluter products, strictly according to directions, and so far (3 yrs)it is great.
Stef
I use it on any shower job I do. I even use it around tubs with no shower. Never had an issue with it.
Please ask the Mods to change the title to "Kerdi wrongly installed" or something like that.
I have no clue how to request post to be changed but thanks for the feedback.
I just emailed Shluter to get more info on the product so that I can understand it and perhaps rebuild this shower with it-properly!
I like the title because it is getting good response so that I can hear how other people feel about the product and already got some good ideas because of some of the postings.
I really dont think I would have gotten the same response if I changed the posting.
Heck, I might become a Schluter advocate after this experience.
I put in a Kerdi shower about 4 years ago in my own house. While putting the tiles up on the wall, the trowel slipped out of my hand and put a nice 4" slice through the floor membrane and the pan. I patched it with another piece of membrane overlapping the cut by a few inches. No problems. It seems to me, with just basic care with the installation, the Schulter system is pretty much bullet-proof.
ChipTam
Jeff,
It's a fine product. You wrote something that had me scratching my head because I wasn't sure what you meant. So to clarify; use Kerdi on the shower floor and shower walls, even on the ceiling if you're doing a steam shower. Or use Kerdi on the walls of a tub surround.
Ditra is not used in showers, it's a floor uncoupling/waterproof membrane. However, to make a ditra floor completely waterproof like in a wet room, run a strip of Kerdi over the seams between the sheets of ditra.
Here's an old Kerdi picture thread I did a couple of years ago.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=86714.1
I just read your old thread.
I must have missed it on the 1st round but you answered every one of the questions that I had about the product with that thread.
Thanks
My shower will be almost as much work re. niches and size, but the tile work will be much easier. No cuts on tile except at corners.
Q. The last bozo put the tile on with mastic. (he put the kerdi on with thinset but not the tile)
I recon it matters as Shluter says to use thinset, but do you know why?
Also, how long should I budget to Kerdi a shower like that one? Is one day about right?
Dinosaur answered that one about Mastic.
The Mastic absorbs moisture, and will mold and rot. That is the short answer
Thanks
I did not see that one yet.
trying to catch up on emails
By the way. Kerdi v Ditra
sorry, I am getting them confused with one another. I am green behind the ears
Dinosaur just told me about Ditra on another thread
I had never heard of it before. I knew about the kerdi but it seemed to good to be true so I stayed away.
Just address it as my old (#### ho;e) boss did..............dat orange stuff.
'bout covers the bases.
Just a FYI....I just finished using Kerdi again a few weeks ago and realized how hard it is to find the right size trowel for it so when y'all go to buy the Kerdi they also sell the proper sized notch trowel. Some of you may find it difficult to get in your local stores like I do and I live on Long Island and there's no shortage of stores here...just a heads up
*1/4" x 3/16" (6 mm x 4 mm) V-notched trowel*
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Good point about the trowel.
Also for those who care. It must be UNmodified thinset.
It amounts to reading the directions and following them to the letter to be confident of success with a great product.
No it DOESN't have to be unmodified thinset. I never use unmodified. I use Versabond which isn't "heavily" modified. They won't give you the warrantee but big deal...warrantee is only one year anyway and I know the Versabond is fine to use.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
It is your choice naturally but I am not smarter than Schluter and unmodified is available and workable.
I never need even the remotest possibility of variation from spec to haunt me for whatever reason. Life is too short.
Even schluter will tell you it's ok to use Versabond but the warantee is void.
John Bridges also uses it and OK's it.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Accepted and acknowledged.
The only concern I have is for readers, DIY and trade, that do not remember Versabond and just grab any old thinset and then wonder why it will not set.
Easier to just say no and take the warrantee for the vast majority
I can dig that : )
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Agreed. :)
Oh fer cryin' out loud!!!!!
would you two just get to the fight and calling each other names...... I'm diein' of anticipation here!!!!
BIG GIGGLE!!!
Nah....I get what he means...cept we all know it was Bush's fault : )~
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
It's Gore's fault.'Cause his wise guys couldn't out-maneuver Bush's wise guys.And it's Kerry's fault. Just because he's Kerry.
oh yeh...it's Kerdi's fault cause of his Shower Administrator...so there!
The entire Medicine Cabinet caved in because of the leak in his system that backed it!
His entire adminstration went into the toilet!
edit: oh yeh...and landed smack dab in Ditra's lap!!
edit edit...lol...wait wait...heard he's calling out the RedGard...bwahahaha
oh gawd...stop me...please...lol...and I also heard he called out his Wonder Board and they're trying to get Hardi Back as well...oy vey...nite***
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Edited 2/13/2009 11:20 pm ET by andybuildz
Edited 2/13/2009 11:21 pm ET by andybuildz
Edited 2/13/2009 11:23 pm ET by andybuildz
I prefer a TARP to waterproof the shower.
Sorry, I'll go back to my corner now...
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Time for another bailout! Free Kerdi for everyone! But the price of thinset has been tripled!Amendment to the bill allows mastic to be used with Kerdi. Mike Holmes celebrates in Canada with a cartilage piercing and new bib overalls.
Edited 2/13/2009 11:27 pm ET by Mongo
"Amendment to the bill allows mastic to be used with Kerdi. Mike Holmes celebrates in Canada with a cartilage piercing and new bib overalls"
Its the Darn mastic lobby. I've heard they are one of the most powerful!
and Joe Bidet.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Wow, I think the four of us need girlfriends or something...
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Yeah, my wife is snoring next to me. A Gf sounds great.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
In 12 minutes it will be Valentine's Day.FWIW.*Edited to add that I should have said 11 minutes.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Edited 2/13/2009 11:50 pm ET by JonBlakemore
How's Long Island these days. I used to fish off montaque for shark, loved every seasick day of it. Now I look at cows and corn, i sure miss being near the water.
LI's OK...still long...still expensive...still has water around it...even cows n hay n potatoes...
Far as Ditra goes...you need to be sure the floor is solid and I like it at a minimum of 1 1/4" thick of subfloor. My fav is dbl 3/4". Then you can go Ditra. Seriously east to install but a bit on the expensive side. You can use 1/4" Hardie for about 1/2 the cost and it takes a little more work but not all that much. They both work great.
If money isn't that much of an object go Ditra.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Thanks for the reply, a little late getting back to read these things. I usually use a product by GP for my tile work, but up here it is hard to find. Then stock the Hardi board but not in 8 foot lengths. I don't like a lot of seams if I can avoid it. Seems the schluter products are readily available and they seem to have a good track record. Price isn't always an object as long as I feel it will not fail. Callbacks like this don't look good for you.
Just out of curiosity, why the strong response to the thread title?
You would think the guy insulted the collective grandmother or something. He just suggested that a waterproofing system didn't work.
How long has Kerdi been in use? I know the Schluter seems to be the Festool of tile products, but couldn't they be wrong?
It's of note that I came home about 20 minutes ago to a pile of boxes at my front door. UPS delivered the materials for my first Kerdi shower (preformed pan, drain, membrane, etc.) from TileProtection.com. So I've bought in to the Schluter thing as well, I'm just wondering if anyone has an installation that's more than 5 years old?
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Yea, it seems one can't badmouth festool here. Git runned right out of the place!
MikeInsert initially amusing but ultimately annoying catch phrase here.
Festool, neat but pricy. We did a hud project and the door guys forgot to cut the doors for the carpets. The gc on the project was all upset but bet him dinner I could fix them, 400 doors. So i bought the saw with the guide, best thing since beer. I have used thing many times but will not let anyone else use, learned my lesson before with loaning out expensive tools.
I've got several projects over 5 years old using both Kerdi and Ditra. No problems at all; not even a hint of trouble. And some of those projects were installations over pretty marginal substrates; I get a lot of those up here in old summer cottages people have 'winterised' to use all year round.
IMO, yes, Schlüter is the cat's meow. And then some. And you know me, I'm not usually a big fan of high-tech building materials. Still use 15# felt for housewrap; and prefer aluminised kraft over poly VB.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Did I tell you that I went skiing with a number cruncher from Schlüter on Sunday?
She has been on a Thursday/Friday seminar on how to use all their products. She (Margerite SP?) is the Mother of one of Ian's friends. Wonder if you and I could weasle our way into one of those things.
I thot you weren't going out skiing for a coupla weeks, or I would have hurried up and mounted those bindings on Audrey's new tele skis!
But with the cräp that just fell outta the sky (and the additional crâp that's coming tonite and tomorrow), I wouldn't recommend doing anything but hide under the bed until Mother Nature calms down and some more snow falls. Unfortunately, I don't have that choice....
Gotta go eat supper; I got delayed reading Diesel's thread about his tools getting stolen.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Yeah, schulter can be wrong but when the product is installed with butted corners and with holes, etc. you can't blame the product. having holes in kerdi would be like holes in shingles and saying elk shingles failed. It's a really simple system and the instructions are very clear, they even have a free dvd. If you do have a hole then you just put a patch over it that is at least 2" from the hole.You don't blame the PT lumber or decking material if a deck pulls off the house because some gorilla never lagged it to the house, same as this case. I clicked on the thread because I thought the kerdi failed, and I thought the title was terribly misleading (even before reading the other comments).
I wonder if all you kerdi fans know that you only get a one year warranty LOL?
Anyways, what do you have to do to seal the patch. I don't see how just overlapping 2" will seal anything. Does the stuff chemically weld itself together?
And, how much per square foot is Kerdi? I saw some rolls in the big box today and of course, it didn't have a price tag.
I wonder if all you kerdi fans know that you only get a one year warranty LOL?
30 years ago we did lead pans, 20 years ago we move to vynle pans, 3 years ago we moved to Kerdi.
Each system got better, and now we even get a year warranty!
The last lead pan I did was in my own house in 1985. Just ripped it out and did a Kerdi.
Welcome back.
"Just out of curiosity, why the strong response to the thread title?"
uh ... 'cause it says ...
"Kerdi system failed" ....
and then goes on to state that's clearly not the case.
maybe that has something to do with it?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Thanks, Jeff. I get the fact that the Kerdi was installed wrong.However, 3 of the first 4 responses practically demanded that the mods change the title of the thread. Why?I mean, I like a good building detail as much as the next guy, but don't you think it strange to get up in arms over someone who wants to use 19.2" OC stud spacing or fibermesh in place of rebar in concrete?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I got cetified last year at the CTEF (Ceramic Tile Education Foundation) by Schluter Systems (uncoupling, floor drains and waterproofing)
Here is a pic of the drinks in the breakroom. A cardboard box lined with Kerdi.
View Image
Kerdi showers are 100% waterproof when properly installed.
I agree that the Kerdi did not fail. The installation failed.
Change the title of the thread.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
I agree that the thread title is misleading. Of course, I might not have clicked on it if it was labeled correctly, "Installer botches Kerdi installation."
Hmmm
Misleading or just some guy who got stuck ripping out a shower that was done in kerdi wanting to know if the stuff really works.
I'm sure you ripped apart showers before Bill, first you bash the #### out of stuff then try to dissect it to see what went wrong.
I am pretty sure the guy messed up the install but want some good feedback from people so that I can be a little smarter about it.
I gotta put something back there and want to know if the Kerdi system is the right product.
I am getting a sense that people have had good success with it so am thinking I would like to try it.
I have used Kerdi and think it a great product. The main drawback is that you need to be careful to avoid too much buildup at the overlaps in the corners. The Kerdi drain is wonderful because of how it lets you fine tune the strainer location when you are setting the tile. The system, correctly applied, solves so many problems common to traditional systems.John Bridge sells a very good e-book on using Kerdi that was most helpful to me in my first Kerdi job. You can find it on his website.Bill
Jon
I am ok with strong reaction to the title. It took me all day to get half the shower out because I was disassembling it to find out, to the best of my ability, what went wrong.
I am 98% sure the installer did everything way wrong but maybe I missed something. I was trying to find overlaps after mashing out tile and peeling tile from the Kerdi backing and wanting to understand why it failed. (Not getting paid much for the job so mideswell make it a learning experience)
It just doesnt make sense to me why the installer just blatantly left holes in the kerdi and did not overlap. It appears to be the one wall opposite the diverter where all the water hits and I can only guess he was running out of material and did not want to buy more so patched it in poorly with scraps. (insanity obviously but that is the only thing I can figure)
If the stuff is that good, I would love to re-use it in this application because the shower configuration is such that the walls and wall caps will get constant water flow. The ditra would be much easier than installing Vinyl panning all over the walls, etc.
"The ditra would be much easier than installing Vinyl panning all over the walls, etc. "
and now yer just messing with us, huh?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
No Jeff, I'm not messing.
The stuff looks pretty cool, actually, and I read all about it after day one and it would be easier than vinyl up the walls.
I normally just do the bottom 6" and around the seats with vinyl but this shower was leaking everywhere and there is no way I am going to put something back that leaks.
I gotta do it perfectly and if the Kerdi system is the best way to go, I am all for it.
I already emailed shluter for the Cd this morning because I could not find a video link on the website.
Another thing is to get the sales rep for your area, call the schulter number and they'll give you the person who covers your area. The one for my area did demo's at some of the tile stores so I watched a full shower demo and could ask him questions and see it done in person.
Thanks DDay
I contacted them yesterday and they are sending video (you might have read that)
but will find out who the local rep is as well.
In this slow market, I dont know how much of that they are doing but it is worth a try.
I looked at Mongo's old thread with all his picts of one he did with all the why's and how's and feel like I got a personal training session on the product but the more info the better!
I was in your boat too, I did get to see the demo but I understood most of it before from watching the video and reading stuff here, john bridge and others. The one learning curve for me was knowing how much kerdi I could get on there while the thinset was still wet enough. I think next time I'll solve some of that by making the thinset a little wetter than normal. Also, I tiled the ceiling in our shower 3'x5' so the kit that I bought was not enough, I needed a few extra corners and other pieces. The kerdi places in my area sell the kits but also sell the kerdi by foot and they have all the packages of kerdi band, corners, etc.One other thing I don't know if anyone mentioned is you can use the kits and go bigger by doing a mudbed for the additional area. I got the 32"x60" kit and did the mudbed on the sides to get the 3' I wanted. You obviously do that before the kerdi and you just use the kit tray pitch as a guide and continue it.
Edited 2/12/2009 8:26 am ET by DDay
DDay
I am likely buying it by the roll and will buy corners as well.
The shower is such that a mud pan will be easier than trying to fit their pregaged stuf fin place and I am quite comfortable gaging the shower. Done lots of them in the past.
I think Wedi is more like Festool. Nice, but $$$$$.Kerdi's sort of halfway there. Maybe just the "Fest".It's a Kerdi-Fest!
JB, We are installing a 72" x 72" shower kit on a bathroom job. The kit was $829.00 locally. I priced it on tileprotection.com and their cost delivered is $572.99! Wow, I know where I'm getting my Kerdi from now on. Thanks for the tip...........To All: By the way, we up charge the client when using Kerdi. We give them option one, the old chloraloy vinyl liner, NOT guaranteed, or Kerdi with a five year guarantee for $1,500.00 bucks more. We've done three showers so far and have one more next month and each time the client has opted to spend the bucks with Kerdi. I show them several pictures of the rot and mold behind the vinyl pan repair jobs we have done and a few of the kerdi during installation. Nothing like striking fear to get your point across! :o )Constructing in metric...
every inch of the way.
There's a cpl of guys on Ebay that sell Kerdi at a pretty good price!
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
""...the old chloraloy vinyl liner..."" ""I show them several pictures of the rot and mold behind the vinyl pan repair jobs we have done "' What was the actual problem with the chloraloy liners in the rep[aired showers? Bad product? Bad installation?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
doesn't seem like a good idea to show pics of yer own work that's failed?
hope that's not what he meant.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Only if it is instructive to others. I asked because I used some of the chloraloy liners and wanted to know what the issues were. I haven't messed with tile pans since Kerdi came out so have never used one, although I did use the material for other purposes.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"doesn't seem like a good idea to show pics of yer own work that's failed?"Nah, it's the other nucklehead's work we show. Come to think of it I can't remember a single time we screwed up. Except that time we fumigated a doctor's operating room by mistake while a patient was on the table. And oh yea, we dumped a gallon of contact adhesive on a carpeted restaurant floor an hour before opening. And, oh never mind, but we NEVER photograph our own screwups!!! :-)Constructing in metric...
every inch of the way.
On many of the chloraloy installation failures we have found that the curbs were not done correctly. We also find nails thru the vinyl on top of the curbs. Also in one of the pictures below, the installer framed a 2x4 and plywood diagonal shower bench on top of the liner. It was covered in mold when we did the demo. The chloraloy liner if done properly usually causes no problems. It is in the installation where problems can occur.Constructing in metric...
every inch of the way.
Resized
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Thanks for the reply. I was confident of the chlorolay when I installed it and would use it again for some things without hesitation..
Installation error can kill the best of materials.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Guys mentioned ditra, is that the isolating menbrane you put down first to prevent cracking grout joints? I have never used it and am redoing a 900 sq/ft cabin into a 2200 sq/ft custome cabin. Some of the original floors are not that solid and when i tile i want it right.
Edited 2/15/2009 7:20 am ET by captainbil
Sounds like a real hack put it in.
"Sounds like a real hack put it in"
It makes me sick.
I want to be renovating bathrooms from the 60's with yellow tile that desparately need it, not 2 year old baths that look great and leak like sieves.
i hate hate hate going behind slobs and cleaning up their messes.
Gives us all a bad name. "contractor"
I'll second John Bridge's ebook. If you haven't worked with Kerdi, BUY and read the book.. I'm not a contractor, but I did my own 4x4 shower along with entire bath renovation last year. On second story and used every day since. I didn't buy the prefab floor, used mud and kerdi on top with a kerdi drain. I did go up 6 feet on all the walls, so I used extra material. Hasn't leaked and I see no reason for it to leak....EVER. I did make mistakes, real easy to build up corners too much, especially in my niches. I'm cheap and made myself. Use the stuff it is great.
Which is really a sad commentary on the slob who put it in. Because Kerdi is designed for the do-it-yourself type. That is, anyone with a modicum of skill and technique should be able to install it. The customer support is excellent and there is no shortage of information on the product out there.