Replies

1. 
   brownbagg | Oct 03, 2002 02:18am | #1

   yes

2. 
   Sancho | Oct 03, 2002 02:43am | #2

   Well Its quite simple. Yes. The pro's you can watch tv, turn on your radio in the kitchen and or use the blender while you are washing your dishes if tyhe DW is on its own circuit. If it is not well you'll end up like my compadre, He fixed his kitchen up w/o up gradeing the electrical and now he has to turn out lights and other things to use his DW.

    Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"

1. 
   MarkH128 | Oct 03, 2002 03:45am | #3

   My house had everything in the kitchen (except the fridge) and bathroom on one fuse. That was messed up. I had an old stove with the 110 outlet on it which helped. You had to make sure everything was off if you wanted toast, or coffee, or to use the microwave. Nothing like a screaming wife in the shower with the lights out because I forgot to turn everything off before I flipped on the micro.

1. 
   HammerHarry | Oct 03, 2002 04:23am | #4

   After a few months, we discovered our fridge, toaster, and microwave were on the same circuit along with the living room lights.  Oddly enough, it was only occaisionally that we would be using both toaster and microwave when the fridge kicked in.  When I clued in, it only took me a couple hours to add a breaker and run the wires.

1. 
   brownbagg | Oct 03, 2002 05:37am | #5

   by code, two small aplliance 20 amp circuit, one more for disposal na d dishwasher, it reccommended that each have its own but yes they can combine. only those two , no other plugs. refrigeration can be on one of the small appliance but reccomend its own. Stove own, built in microwave own ( code)  no plug more than four feet. all counter gfi, refregerator, dishwasher, disposal does not need GFI. any counter over 12 inch wide must have plug. plugs distance can go around corners but not over stoves or sinks. it is reccommended that each, other plug be on same circuit( skip each plug) but this is not code requirement. circuit must be balance. Lights cannot be on small aplliance circuit. These circuit can be extended into dining room, pantry but not laundry area. A typical kitcernwill have roughly six circuit just for that room

1. 
   UncleDunc | Oct 03, 2002 05:48am | #6

   >> ... no plug more than four feet.

   What?

2. 
   brownbagg | Oct 03, 2002 03:09pm | #7

   On the counter, no plugs more than four feet apart, because most appliance have two foot cords. Once you off the counter it goes to ten feet apart. also counter circuit, NEC allows 12/3 but my local inspector will only allow 12/2. Do not forget the green wirenut also.

3. 
   TKanzler | Oct 03, 2002 03:40pm | #8

   Don't forget penninsulas and islands, which goes counter to the reasons for the 48" rule and short cords in the first place. 

   Be seeing you...

4. 
   whancock64 | Oct 04, 2002 06:12am | #15

   I have the outlets for up to 14 devices in my tiny 10x14 kitchen. Then, to top that off, they put one in the den wall, where it is above the love seat at the 'pass through'. It is an eyesore! I am checking to see if I can do what I saw once, outlet in the drawer. It was so cool. It was an outlet in the drawer with a flex conduit connecting it to the supply. If I can that sucker's GONE! I'll patch the drywall and act like it never happened!

   I think sometimes they should allow for code deviations for design issues such as this. I know about the shorter cord, closer outlet thing, but geeeeezzz....

5. 
   BillHartmann | Oct 03, 2002 04:08pm | #9

   UD

   I think that he means no RECPTACLE more than 4 ft apart.

   Otherwise I will have to go out and buy more appliances just so that my plugs are not too far apart <G>.

   BTW, my kitchen is 20 years old and has the required 2 20 amp cirucits. But the refig, DW, disposal, and trash compactor are all on those two circuits along with the toaster, breadmaker, and microwave (countertop). Never had any problems with tripping. But the code now requires more dedicated circuits. But it is still up to local codes about things like DW and disposals. One of the difference is that in some areas those are "plug in" and in others hardwired.

6. 
   cjeden | Oct 03, 2002 04:35pm | #10

   thanks for the confirmation--I picked up a really great book a few days ago -- Black and Decker -The Complete Guide to Home Wiring--you basically repeated in a paragraph what they took a chapter to explain--although like I said the book is great.

   You mentioned in your post that all the counter receptacles should be GCFI--does that mean I can't put one on the circuit as the first receptacle and then feed through to the others--(or do I need to buy the expensive GCFI for every receptacle)

   I'm planning on doing 12/3 wiring and alternating the recptacles onto two 20 amp circuits.

   Thanks

   cje

7. 
   brownbagg | Oct 04, 2002 02:28am | #11

   you must have a gfi for each counter receptales outlet on counter. Refr, dishwasher, disposal does not.   12/3 was a code violation in my local area because it is possible to get 240 volts on the netural if wired wrong, also gfi do not like 12/3 check local before buying wire. Black and decker is a good read book but they are some code violation in the book.  dishwasher and disposal do not have to be hard wired, Alot of people are putting an recptacle and pigtailing the units.

   a good electrical page is www. doityourself.com then go to electrical. A master electrician by the name of John Nelson will answer your questions better.

8. 
   pm22 | Oct 04, 2002 03:13am | #12

   Just correctng some misconceptions:

   1] A GFCI can protect the outlets downstream.

   2] You don't get 220 on the neutral. If the neutral is disconnected on a "three wire" system, you get 220 in series with evrything thing connected to it. Then all [insert German word for "bright" here] breaks loose. It is fun to calculate. You might then have your toaster getting 50 volts and then your clock getting 170 volts or something like that. Pale toast in quadruple time.

   -Peter

   Down by the bay.

9. 
   brownbagg | Oct 04, 2002 03:50am | #13

   what I meant on the 220 netural, if the circuit breakers are wired on different phase, they both be pulling 120 on inflow but once it flows out the netural it will be 240 v which be too much for that line to handle. If they are wired on same phase then it be 120 in and 120 out. more info on this is at http://www.doityourself.com then go to electrical search 12/3

10. 
    DaveRicheson | Oct 04, 2002 05:28am | #14

    I think you mean amperage. I run no. 12 wire for single phase 277 volt lighting circuites all the time, so a no. 12 wire will certinly handle single phase 240 volt. Now if you mean the neutral current could exceed the 20 amp code limit for no. 12 wire , you are on track. Look at the wiring inside a florescent fixture. Ballast output voltage can be as high as 400+ volts, but the anperage is generally less than 1 amp per tube. Thus the internal wirring of a fixture is generally 16 guage wire.

    Dave

11. 
    BillHartmann | Oct 04, 2002 06:44am | #17

    Johnny

    You have it a little backwards and using the wrong terms.

    If you have the 2 hots on the same leg them the currents in the neutral will be additive and could overload the neutral.

    If the 2 Hots are on oposite legs then the currents tend to be subtractive. If you have idental loads on the two branches then the current in the neutral will zero.

12. 
    whancock64 | Oct 04, 2002 06:21am | #16

    I'm replacing a GFI that's behind a fridge at a clients. There's this BIG, I mean HUGE sticker that will go there noting the non-GFI status. To make it worse, it splits to two circuits from there so I'll have to install that GFI on one leg and a new one on the other leg. At least that is the plan today...

    Oh yeah, WHY? When you GFi the thing the fridge is dead. Power surge during a t-storm caused it to click off. (that or the neighor kid who was watching the dog did something) I'm in doing work while HO is in England and go to put my lunch in fridge and it's warm. (you know, not right putting it the boss man's real fridge, so servent's quarters and all that..) hated to tell them when they got back, but glad I did. They were grilling the hotdogs that were refrozen after I kicked it back on when I told them.

    May also just install a GFI breaker since that'd keep the outlet protected and move the reset to a place the HO can reach without muscling the fridge around.

13. 
    pm22 | Oct 04, 2002 08:26am | #18

    Maybe I have to write a "NEC for Dummies" book. Off the top of my head-

    A kitchen requires two 20 Amp circuits. Receptacles near a sink require a GFCI. A more or less inaccessable outlet behind the refigerator can be on its own circuit and, because it is "inaccessable", it doesn't need to be a GFCI. In fact it would be best to have it on its very own personal circuit. Same goes for the built-in microwave, the DW [designated wife?] and the garbage disposal which always clogs up for no good reason. (Then what's the garbage can for?)

    Then I'll also have to write a "Electrical Theory for Dummies" book. Light bulbs absorb darkness until they fill up and then then "burn out" and you can tell because they're black inside. Q.E.D. Motors are filled with smoke at the factory and when they "burn up" they smoke escapes. Phew!

    AC circuits go up and down with a sine wave. Half the time [when it crosses the zero line] there's nothing there. No voltage or amps. Then it goes up to something like 166 volts and back down again. But you do the calculus and the average is 120 volts [Root Means Squared] which is exactly what 120 volts DC would do [like heating a heater].

    Anyway, back to my story: precisely when one phase - the black wire - is at a zero potential, the other "phase" - read red wire - is at its highest. But what about the neutral? In a three wire system, the black and red phases just cancel each other out and the white wire just carries the difference. [With harnonics this gets screwed up.]

    There. You've just learned the equivalent of four years of electrical school.

    -Peter

    Forget the primal roar --- just scream.

14. 
    BillHartmann | Oct 04, 2002 08:53am | #19

    " Anyway, back to my story: precisely when one phase - the black wire - is at a zero potential, the other "phase" - read red wire - is at its highest. "

    Did you sleep through one of the classes? <G>

    When one leg is at zero so is the other one.

    But when one is peak positive voltage, the other one at the peak negative voltage.

15. 
    pm22 | Oct 05, 2002 03:39am | #26

    Getting up at 4 am to get to work and then class didn't start until 7 pm and its supposed to last 3 hours but the kind professor let us out early but don't tell the union. The danger was not falling asleep in class but falling asleep on the way home. Only one guy got killed doing that. And then you get home at 10 pm and still have to fix dinner, etc.

    I guess you might be right about the phase difference. My "Idiots for Wiring" book will be appropriately revised and you get credit and a 0.00015% share of the royalties.

    As for the sink issue, this was all off the top of my head and don't believe everything you see on the internet. But in a forum like this, mistakes and distortions get pointed out. I don't do residential kitchens. There's a better treatment of this in the current issue of Electrical Contractor magazine.

    Compared to the bare feet, I think the receptacle is better looking. Why doesn't Fine HomeBuilding print realistic pictures like that? Where's the ash trays and crumpled newspapers and unwashed dishes?

    -Peter

    On the toll road of life... a handful of slugs is handy but yucky.

16. 
    MajorWool | Oct 05, 2002 04:02am | #27

    Mullins "Residential wiring with reference to NEC XXXX" is a good book. More technical than the books you get in HD, but not a total yawner like NEC2002 itself. Also has some nice diagrams of typical house that you can use as a template for permit applications.

    Powells or Amazon has them.

17. 
    whancock64 | Oct 04, 2002 03:51pm | #20

    I don't really care about the theory or 5% allowable drop in voltage on a run etc, etc, etc. I'm playing HO here. I think the code that required that ugly outlet shouldhave some exclusion. I also want to put the ugly outlet ina drawer if I _have_ to have to meet code.

18. 
    jet | Oct 04, 2002 04:21pm | #21

    Instead of the " ugly outlet " Use a GFI breaker in the breaker box. Does the same job and no "ugly outlet".

19. 
    whancock64 | Oct 04, 2002 06:31pm | #25

    It's WHERE it's located that makes it ugly. The GFI is further up the circuit. See the attached photo of it above the love seat....

    I want to put it in a drawer on the other side of the work surface that is through that opening. I've seen it somewhere before and if it meets code, I'll do it, remove that whole ordeal and patch the drywall....

    The thermostat leaning there was the original I replaced with a programmable one. I was checking that the temps across the house vary greatly.

    Edited 10/4/2002 11:34:07 AM ET by Wilburn Hancock

    
20. 
    JohnSprung | Oct 05, 2002 04:53am | #28

    How wide is that pass thru?  Could you put one on each side of it on the kitchen side and make the four foot rule?  Leaning over the counter and reaching around to plug something in backwards doesn't make much sense.  Or, given where you put the love seat, do you even need the pass thru at all?  If you close it up, you could put the receptacle there.

    -- J.S.

21. 
    whancock64 | Oct 05, 2002 03:00pm | #29

    There are plugs on either side, it's 5' wide thus the need for one between. Closing it would make the 20' high wall in the family room too barren and large and the kitchen would be quite evident in it's small size.

    I'd rather just get rid of it and put one in the drawer on the other side. Working out the details now. I plan things for a month or so and then sketch it out. I may do one of those retractable cutting boards and figure a way to make it sit beside that. I've seen one in a drawer somewhere before. It was in an exterior grade metal box, with a flex metal conduit and of course stranded copper.

22. 
    TKanzler | Oct 04, 2002 04:54pm | #24

    A kitchen requires two 20 Amp circuits. Receptacles near a sink require a GFCI.

    As of at least the 1996 NEC, all kitchen convenience receptacles (counter, island, peninsula) must be GFCI protected (not counting refrigerator, which may be on one of these circuits, but is not required to be GFCI).  The only citation I am aware of relating receptacle distance to sink is for wet-bars, where installed to serve the counter area, and it is within 6 ft of the sink edge [210-8(a)(7)].  This a change from older editions, which did cite distance-to-sink in kitchens and bathrooms, but I don't remember how long ago or what the rules were then.   

    Be seeing you...

23. 
    booch | Oct 04, 2002 04:47pm | #23

    GFI recepticle works well and economically, but cram that into a box with downstream wiring is time consuming. I find it easier to buy the breaker and put it in the load center. Less mess, faster assembly. Yes it does make you go to the load center to reset it, but how often do you have to reset a gfi? Probably good to have that walk to cool your mind and think..."WTF did I do to cause this?"

2. 
   BossHog | Oct 04, 2002 04:36pm | #22

   "..........washing your dishes if the DW is on its own circuit."

   Anybody else think it's ironic that we use "DW" for both "Dish Washer" and "Dear Wife"?

   I got a great deal on a rhetorical phone. It never needs to be answered.