Kinda of a two part question, what are the current electrical codes for kitchen outlets.
As I understand it: at least 2- 20 amp circuits are required.
A mircowave needs a dedicate outlet. Does this need to be 20 or can a 15 work (say this mircowave is built in or a hood or on a shelf in a cabinet).
Fridge should be on its own circuit again 15 or 20 here?
Okay lets get tricky Islands. outlet and where if required.
If you have a dropped breakfest bar, in other words a 2×4 wall 4′ high and off that is a bar on brackets 12″ wide 4′ long, does that bar need outlets, mounted in the wall.
Lets not get into ovens those are so specific.
Dishwasher and disposal can they share a 20 amp circuit or are 2 needed?
This is not an actual kitchen just fantsay kitchen. so I count if I where doing it 5 -20 amps.
Any difference to our neighbors to the north in Canada.
Just curious and trying to stay on top of things. The thing that got me thinking on this is the mircowave, was answering a question on another website and some one said that there are definite differences between countertop microwaves and built-in microwaves, not just in terms of size either, but in terms of installation method, ventilation requirements and sometimes even power requirements. I have never seen any unit that would not work on a 20 amp 110 outlet.
We were discussing a mircowave that takes a trim kit to be built in a cabinet verses a wave that is prepackaged as a built is for triple the dollars. I am sure there may be the odd man out but 95% must take 110 and 20 amps. AT the same time just what to stay up on the other items.
Thanks.
Wallyo
Replies
Depends. Here we are required to use an electrical contractor for all wiring... they usually know what the inspector wants.
My understanding is:
All circuits EXCEPT the dedicated 20amp refrigerator must be gfci protected.
have a dedicated 20 amp circuit for each "permanent" appliance, seperate for the dishwasher/disposal (they can share a neutral if the inspector allows) and a seperate 20 amp circuits for each island and the wall counter. Number and Placement on the island is usually determined by having an outlet accessible from (I think) 4 feet away at any point on the counter and can be mounted in the sides of the cabinets.
Now that I've tried...
wait for a pro to give you the REAL answer.
A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
That is a good start, I guess I should of been clearer, that I thought all kitchen outlets need to be 20 amp you seem to think the same, but there are a few that I am hazy on. We will see where this goes.Just a side question you can not wire your own house with out a electrical contractor.ThanksWallyo
"Just a side question you can not wire your own house with out a electrical contractor."
Citizens can only replace fixtures. A licensed sparky is required to perform any hard wiring or electrical modifications.
It's a shame, too. I wish I could whip a few of the experts after seeing the results of their "craftsmanship".
Insurance makes the rules, gov't enforces them and we pay for them.A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
Insurance makes the rules, gov't enforces them and we pay for them.
You're wrong about that, ins didn't come up with that.
Some trade group or union got that through your state legislature to insure their continued income.
Joe H
Some trade group or union got that through your state legislature to insure their continued income.
Not this time, though they do benefit.
If you were an insurance carrier, would you want to cover fire damage caused by a homeowner's electrical work or have the chance to sue a contractor's carrier for reimbursement damages?
Insurance sets most of the building codes through investigation of current practices and their losses. They then "recommend" changes to manage the potential future risks.
I actually agree with most of the "risk management" implemented from statistical data. At least we aren't subject to political whims when potential losses are discovered, studied and loss control measures are evaluated.
It's the contractors' understanding/performance that I have the most concern.A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
Surprised a bit, here we can wire our own house from beginning to end with a permit. In the past one could wire a close relatives house, brother, sister, or parents, a bit tougher on that now but if you explain to the inspector the situation they may allow it.Keep the kitchen requirements coming. Part of my reason for this is to up date myself when was the last code change 08?. Please correct if wrong on that.Thanks Wallyo
You asked about differences between the States and Canada. It surprised me, but the electrician who wired our summer home in Canada says that GFIs are not required in kithens (only bathrooms). In Michigan, homeowners are allowed to do their own wiring with a permit but the work must be inspected just as work by an electrician must be inspected by the city.
ChipTam
Not sure what state you are in but as for Ga. a homeowner CAN wire his own home. It must be a owner occupied home and not for hire. You still have to meet all electrical codes and past all inspections before any drywall is applied. All outside fixtures/ mounts must be in place including a/c cut offs and main meter box. Fuse panel is your choice of brands but should be at least 200 amps. Wire and breakers are cheap compared to overloaded circuits that result in a electrical fire!
Wrong again. See my reply to wallyo. If you own the property, you can build, to code.
> Just a side question you can not wire your own house with out a electrical contractor.Depends on state/local rules. Some will allow you to wire your entire house IF it's YOUR house, some limit you to downstream of the panel, etc.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Yeah I was a bit surprised at that, though he did not state it, I figured he is taking single residence. My mom and dad had a duplex or more described as a one over one in NJ, they co-owned it with my aunt. All three lived in it, my aunt in her unit, my parents in theirs, When they sold the city did a pre closing safety inspection. We failed, some smoke detectors needed, I was able to put those in, battery powered. The other items were GFI's I knew they were missing some on outlets, agent said lets see what they find on inspection. Turns out if it were single family I could of installed them, two family needed to be done by a license electrician, though both units were owner occupied go figure. I think I would of missed one out of seven it was a weird one I had forgot about. City would not give occupancy permit till done and the electrician needed a permit too.WALLYO
Wrong in Washington State. I always pull an 'owner/builder permit' and enjoy a great relationship with the inspectors.
skip I will let him speak for himself but Hackinatit is in TN not WA, that maybe the difference.Wallyo
since i had to deal with this the code we were reading... on an island an outlet was not required... we put them but per kitchen code i wasn't required to... I thought about but did not explore was.... maybe not kitchen code but what if the wall on the island was long enough to require it... but what if it just had legs? and is it a wall just beause it's a flat surface?
p
Since we're speaking "in general," I suggest you forgo the internet, and buy a few books. I'd start with a code oriented publication (there are some focusing on homes), and "Code Check Electrical." Despite the recent recall, Rex Caldwell has a fine book.
I say thism because your question is so open-ended. It's hard to keep on point, where there is no point.
Finally, as I've said before, you pay a tradesman for his professional judgement. Many of the things you ask are not code issues, but design issues. Only a pro, looking at the actual site, can give you good advice.
You need two 20a dedicated circuits for the countertop convenience outlets, GFI.
20a dedicated each for the micro(OTR or built-in), disposal, dishwasher, non GFI
Fridge either on a dedicated 15a non GFI, or on a 20a convenience circuit.
At least one island outlet located no more than 6" in under the c'top o'hang. This has always been a grey area because inspectors seem to interpret this in a variety of ways.
Any c'top 12" or wider requires a receptacle.
Remember that new homeruns for ovens and ranges require a four wire cable.
Can't tell you about our neighbors to the north except that they have a beautiful country, Eh?
Counter top micros and built in micros are very different in the code requirements in that a built in needs a dedicated circuit.
SullyGood summary that is what I was looking for.My main sticking point was the fridge I thought that might of been the exception to the 20 amp rule, just was not sure. The other was the built in mircowave thanks for clearing that up. I hear you on the island, in the past electricans and inspectors seem to go either way.Some feel they do not want a cord hung over a counter edge where a toddler can pull on it and say spill a deep fryer filled with hot oil. on themselves. Others feel folks will plug a extension cord in the closest outlet run it across the floor creating a trip and spill hazard.I have seen a potential solution to this don't know if it would be allowed, a company came up with a pop up outlet. It is round like a ring one uses to run computer wires through a desk top you tap it and up pops an outlet. I think it comes corded and as a hardwire unit.My main purpose as I said was to refresh my self, I have no plans for a particular kitchen. At least if I look at a kitchen remodel I can say with what you want to do this, this and this may need to be doe.Thanks for the input.Wallyo
I can't tell you about code, but a microwave on a 15 amp circuit is cutting it pretty close. 1600W = 13.3A.
I re-wired a circuit for a microwave/cooktop vent from 15A to 20A because every time the HO turned on the dining room chandelier (maybe 360W) while microwaving something, the 15A breaker tripped.
Yeah same way in my house, was wired not by me though, The outlet for the stove vent hood when the house was built is a 15 amp. On it is also the dining room, living room, mud-room, garage ceiling lights, and vent in the mud-room. I took the vent hood down put in a vent/ microwave, on occasion the breaker trips. From the start I would of put the vent-hood on a 20 amp dedicated to avoid such a problem, if I had been doing it. That change is on my to do list.Wallyo
Edited 2/22/2009 3:37 pm by wallyo
>>a microwave on a 15 amp circuit is cutting it pretty close. 1600W = 13.3A.
......every time the HO turned on the dining room chandelier........ while microwaving something, the 15A breaker tripped.<<
I thought this discussion assumed a dedicated 15A line -- if the chandelier was on the same circuit, it's not a dedicated circuit anymore.
Most household microwaves which I have installed will run just fine on a 15A dedicated line. Mine, 1000w, for example calls for a 15A or 20A line. Maximum draw is 1800 watts - this assumes you have the microwave running on high, the turntable on, the vent fan on "high" and the lights on "high".
Likewise, I have never seen a household garbage disposer which needs greater than a 15A dedicated line. Most are in the 1/3 to 1/2 peak hp range at full load with a typical duty cycle of a minute or so.
I assume you changed the cable to the chandelier at the same time as the microwave rewiring? Or, did you run a new dedicated line for the microwave?
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
"I thought this discussion assumed a dedicated 15A line..."My point was that even a dedicated 15A circuit is skimpy for a microwave/vent fan. It doesn't take much more to overload it.Your example of 1800W is a full 15A at 120V. Good practice is to wire a circuit with a safety margin above expected load, so a 20A circuit is appropriate for that device.Yes, I wired a new 20A circuit for the microwave in my example.BruceT
>>My point was that even a dedicated 15A circuit is skimpy for a microwave/vent fan.<<
Skimpy?, agreed, yes; inadequate, no, at least according to the manufacturer (Whirlpool).
>>It doesn't take much more to overload it.<<
Dedicated circuit with 1800w maximum draw, there is nothing "more" to overload it. Relatively short duty cycle at maximum draw.
>>Your example of 1800W is a full 15A at 120V.<<
Yep.
>>Good practice is to wire a circuit with a safety margin above expected load, so a 20A circuit is appropriate for that device.<<
also agreed, but not required, according to the manufacturer.
>>Yes, I wired a new 20A circuit for the microwave in my example.<<
I would have done the same thing!
By the way, my 1800w microwave / vent / cooktop lights also run on a 20A dedicated line, but the manufacturer says it does not have to!
In today's business liability climate, if a 20A dedicated line was needed for safety reasons, the manufacturer would clearly state that in the insatallation instructions and equip the appliance with a 20A plug.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
If it truly more than 1440w it should have a 5-20 plug.
... but they do lie on nameplates. Ever seen a 1825w hair dryer?
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/1875w%20hair%20dryer.jpg
I'm in Ontario and this is what our ESA inspector wants. ( you can get a permit to wire your own house here)
Two 20 amps gfci, one each side of the sink.
Dedicated 15 amps, for the fridge, and the micro.
At least 2 more double pull 15 amp to serve split receptacles. (fed with 14/3 wire)
A dedicated 15 amp at or close to the kitchen table.
Any counter longer than 12 inches needs a receptacle. You can run another split plug off a split plug but they can not be adjacent.
Island needs at least one split, unless it has a sink, then its a 20 amp gfci.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Edited 2/23/2009 2:54 pm ET by cliffy
Cliffy thanks for the input, not doing any work up above the border but just a wanted to know.The postings I made were on another web forum mainly concerned a built-in microwave vs a counter top microwave with a built in trim kit. I realized the OP was in Canada at the end of the discussion. During this another person chimed in from the U.S. saying there are various electrical differences between microwave electrical requirement not the country location was not even in play. I tried to point out there are only two options 110 20 or 15 and that 20 amp dedicated would cover just about 99 % of the units made no mater what style and got blasted for the challenge.Just one question the outlets only on either side of the sink need to be 20 amp all other counter outlets can be 15 your way?Thanks againWallyo
Cliffy,
Ontario is certainly not California. My curiosity raises a few clarifying questions:
I'm in Ontario and this is what our ESA inspector wants. ( you can get a permit to wire your own house here)
Two 20 amps gfci, one each side of the sink.
So this means a duplex GFCI recept in a single gang box served by a unique branch circuit (no other loads), one on each side of the sink?
Dedicated 15 amps, for the fridge, and the micro.
2 branch circuits here, no GFCI.
At least 2 more double pull 15 amp to serve split receptacles. (fed with 14/3 wire)
This means 2 multiwire branch circuits for countertop recepts, each duplex recept on both circuits (top and bottom) and no point measured along countertop more than 2' from recept. Do alternating duplex recepts need to go on alternate multiwire circuits?
A dedicated 15 amp at or close to the kitchen table.
Would this dedicated circuit have a duplex recept and go 12-18" above floor level? Or at table height?
Any counter longer than 12 inches needs a receptacle. You can run another split plug off a split plug but they can not be adjacent.
served by the 2 multiwire 15A branch circuits noted above.
Island needs at least one split, unless it has a sink, then its a 20 amp gfci.
The island would be served just like regular countertop, with 15A split recept(s) right? (Except if there is a sink only 1 20A next to it, instead of 2). Would this 20A need a dedicated circuit?
Have a good day
Cliffy
So without any 240V loads, if my assumptions were correct, we have 9 circuit breaker poles so far for the kitchen. What about disposer and DW?
Thanks. Jim
Sorry for the delay. In case these have not been answered here goes.
A dedicated gfci each side of the sink ( You may get away with one but I always put one each side). Each is fed by yellow 12/2 wire and I like to use deep boxes for gfci to make life a little easier.
Fridge and micro are each dedicated and not gfci. That is of course for micro over stove or built in cabinet, not micro sitting somewhere on the counter.
Two adjacent split plugs cannot be served by the same wire.
The plug in the dining area of a kitchen is dedicated and served with a 2 wire. The rule (26-7129d) does not state the height requirement.
Dishwashers and garburators each need their own dedicated 2 wire circuits.
The kitchen with all its modern day appliances takes up most of the panel.
Have a good day
Cliffy
cliffy"The kitchen with all its modern day appliances takes up most of the panel."Cliffy you are correct in that, hence my delay in getting my microwave on it's own circuit.I have room in the panel for a few more tandem breakers, but am out of space on the neutral/ ground bus bars.Wallyo
Check with your local inspector, you may be able to add a bus or pig tail.
Good luck
Have a great weekend
Cliffy
great white north .. just to be clear GF recepticles are out, GF breakers are now in .. if you go 20 amp then the recepticles all need to be t-slots .. no 2 adjacent outlets along the counter can be on the same circuit ..
The ESA guys in my neck of the woods are fine with GFCI receptacles. Absolutely correct about the 20 amperes receptacles being tslot. I did mention in an earlier post about two adjacent splits not being allowed to be from the same circuit. The modern day kitchen has a zillion appliances so I have on occassion put 4 or 5 splits into a kitchen.
Have a good day
CLiffy