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Kitchen Island design help

confused2 | Posted in General Discussion on August 15, 2008 05:07am

When we originally started designing a new kitchen, we had wanted a island with a raised bar (to block the mess) We wanted the bar top to be made of a half log (saw it in a log homes magazine) Somehow, our island has become non traditional in shape. It is sort of  “L'” shape (only the L is  of equal length – each side 8′). I think it is called a double galley kitchen. This creates an inside corner section that is a bit unusable. I was thinking of doing the bar height about 6″above counter height, then in putting a pie shaped wedge from the corner at a bit higher height. This will create a space for a bar stool or two on the curve. We still would like to use a wood slab to create the pie, but not sure this is even possible to make, let alone how to attach it to the main counter. I have talked to a couple of kitchen cabinet people, but they don’t seem interested in the challenge of doing something different.  Any ideas?

Also- can anyone suggest what kind of lighting might work best over the island – the ceiling is only beams with tongue & groove fir decking above, so pot lights won’t work. I think the beams have to be channeled out for the wiring.

Thanks.

 

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Replies

  1. Piffin | Aug 15, 2008 06:53am | #1

    What say we forget all this log slabs, Pies, and wedgies, and just put a keg in that inside corner?

    Have you any photos or drawings. What you have described so far conveys about a fourth of the settting that this design has to mesh with

     

     

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    1. confused2 | Aug 15, 2008 08:05pm | #5

      So here is the plan design (with scribbles). While I don't drink beer, the keg might be an interesting feature :)

       

      1. Piffin | Aug 15, 2008 09:37pm | #9

        I have to admit there are things about the traffic pattern and space in that kitchen layout that bother me instinctively. Have you considered reversing the wedge and sink base shapes like this? 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. confused2 | Aug 15, 2008 11:46pm | #11

          Piffin, thanks - I'll give this idea some thought. The loft above is cut on the angle, which adds to the complexity. The double galley was done  to allow separate dishes & cook area, then a different prep / beverage center area. This allows more than one person to work and others can get drinks etc. without getting in the actual cooking area. At the lake, it is a constant run on the fridge. I must admit, the designer had to sell me on it a bit. At the time it seemed like a good idea. It does give lots of counter space. We just don't like the inside corner much. The pie wedge might help, just don't know how to do it, and maintain the log slab idea we wanted. Guess you can't have it all.

           

  2. User avater
    Jeff_Clarke | Aug 15, 2008 08:30am | #2

    Islands are great with lighting on pendants above them - you do need to be careful about height.

    Jeff

  3. Novy | Aug 15, 2008 10:53am | #3

    K Easy ones first

     Standard counter height is 36" and bar height is 42". Bread making height If I recall correctly is about 32". These numbers can all be adjusted if you are taller or shorter than normal.

     Lighting - I would go with track lighting. Just reflect your island shape to the ceiling for the track and then you can add or subtract fixtures untill you get what you want. A dimmer system is very usefull here. You can also focus/direct your lighting to give you what you want. Just run the wiring in conduit. Industrial is chic these days. Paint it a funky colour and it will become a design feature.

     A corner butcher block section sounds nice. I would keep it at 36". It will let you communicate with your family or guests while you do prep work whether you are standing or sitting. As far as attaching/supporting it goes it can be supported by the adjacent cabinets. Don't forget to leave some knee room under. Stools are sized to standard counter heights by the way. IE you can buy a stool to fit a 36"/42" counter height.

     If you have some budget to work with put a curve in the island corner and get a local woodworker to build it as opposed to a kitchen company. The kitchen company can do the boxes.

     There are also more tricks to be used but I just got up because I could not sleep and now I need to go back to bed. Feel free to email me through the site or just post back here if you want more info. I spent alot of time in the custom kitchen etc. buisness.

     I almost forgot what made me reply to your post. Regarding your wood top ~ find a woodworker that understands the term live edge. What it means is sawmill lumber that has it's natural edge less the bark. It takes some work to pull off but it is very beautifull when finished. You will need a woodworker to pull this off for you. I am in Nova Scotia and very busy but I have some contacts in Manitoba I think. Might even be able to find one on the board here.

     

     

     

    On a hill by the harbour

    1. confused2 | Aug 15, 2008 08:17pm | #7

      Live edge that is what we want! -  nice to know the name. We have very large white & red pine logs on site that have been either fire killed or taken down in a wind storm last year. We have them barked already and hope to use them - but we seem to keep doing things the hard way and are almost giving up trying to do the "unique "thing.  Always appreciate names of specialty woodworkers if you know any in our area.

      Running the wiring in a conduit actually makes more sense than trying to channel through the beams and probably easier. We like the black/bronze iron look so that could work nicely.

      Posted a layout of what is on the plan now with some scribbles.

      Appreciate any and all comments / feedback.

      Thanks.

  4. User avater
    Matt | Aug 15, 2008 12:20pm | #4

    Sounds like you need to post a layout drawing or just take a pic of that part of the plan and post it.

    In the mean time, let me just mention something to keep in mind.  Don't forget the electrical receptacles.

  5. Scott | Aug 15, 2008 08:10pm | #6

    >>>We still would like to use a wood slab to create the pie, but not sure this is even possible to make, let alone how to attach it to the main counter.

    That all sounds doable, given time and resources. You'll want to chose your wood carefully...thick green wood with inevitably check. If you're going to mill a flat counter surface, be sure to use old, well seasoned wood. Don't worry about a gray patina, if there is one; that can be cleaned up with some oxalic acid (or a draw knife).

    Scott.

    Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”

    1. confused2 | Aug 15, 2008 08:31pm | #8

      oxalic acid? This will take the grey out of the wood? We have onsite fire killed red & white pine logs. Fire killed about 5 years ago, we took them down about 3 summers ago, barked them, and they have been standing(laying) since. They are completely grey and we thought perhaps unusable. Is there hope?

      1. Scott | Aug 15, 2008 09:40pm | #10

        >>>Is there hope?Absolutely. Search this forum for "Oxalic"; you'll find numerous conversations about it.In a nutshell, it eats the outer skin of cellulose off the wood, exposing fresh new wood underneath. Beware though, it will do the same thing to your skin; wear gloves.It's relatively inexpensive. Home Despot sells the Behr version which is called something like "Deck Bright".Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”

  6. User avater
    CapnMac | Aug 16, 2008 12:04am | #12

    This creates an inside corner section that is a bit unusable

    Actually, that inside corner will be the place most will gravitate, once shooed out of the kitchen, to my thinking.

    I'd put the dw to right of the sink, if only to make the outside corner a bit easier to deal with.  Check when you select the casework supplier, a two-front cabinet there with full-height doors would be a spiffy place to stash a trashcan(s) handy to the entire work polygon.

    You might consider wrapping the raised edge around the end of the counter where it "points" at the Dining Area (to break the sight line).

    As a personal preference, I'm not at all a fan of oven-micro combos, as two different "cohorts" in the kitchen need them at once.  I'd spot the MW over on the refridgerator wall (much handier for getting frozen stuff out and MW-ing it).

    Mind you, I'd have at least drawn the plan once with the oven cabinet at the corner end of the run, to mirror the reefer on the other wall; then put the cooktop in the middle of one island run and the double sink in the other; and the small prep sink opposite of the reefer on it's wall (since you'll likely need plumbing over there anyway).  Cooks get to talk to guest while either using sink or cooktop like that.  Also the reefer wall becomes sort of a natural prep area to the range.

    I might, too, be inclinded to extend the cabinetry past the present wall oven location to create a "coffee bar" area for the dining room.  Might, maybe, perhaps--enough conditionals?

    Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)



    Edited 8/15/2008 5:05 pm by CapnMac

    1. User avater
      CapnMac | Aug 16, 2008 12:06am | #13

      Bump--What do you think?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

    2. confused2 | Aug 18, 2008 03:41am | #16

      Ha! I had already changed the plan & moved the oven/MW combo and created the coffee bar further out to the dining room. And yes have thought about doing the microwave next to the fridge, but still not sure about that - but it does make sense to do. I keep getting advised to do double wall ovens, but at the lake, we mostly BBQ anyways. The compromise so to speak, was the Kithcen Aid oven / convection oven / micro combo as  I like how the door on top is a drop down, not a swing. I am choking at the price of it though.Thanks for bumping to Susie,  I am feeling not so overwhelmed now.

      Edited 8/17/2008 8:51 pm ET by confused2

  7. susiekitchen | Aug 18, 2008 02:09am | #14

    CapnMac bumped this to me, so I played around with it a bit for you. I did an almost identical kitchen last year, except that each leg of the island was 10'. We did the entire top in mahogany with an ogee edge shaped like the one in plan "B". It could just as easily have been raised.

    Plan A is a version of what you are thinking. I used a cap on the pony wall that could match the working countertop or the raised section. I just like the idea of those two surfaces having their own identities. I'm thinking you could use some really spiffy tubular stainless supports coming up from the pony wall for the raised the upper portion.  That's a lot of top to cantilever, so you're going to have to work out the support carefully.

    Plan B has a continuous raised top with an arc that I think makes a nice counterpoint to the angles in the plan and the loft above. A little easier to support this since the greatest depth is at the 90 in the middle. You can actually furr out the base in an arc for support and attach traditional corbels if you like.

    Plan C is an illustration of what CapnMac was saying about flipping the ovens to the opposite side. It balances what's happening on the fridge wall so your heaviest objects are in a like position. Some people, however, like the idea of a strong visual break at the end of a cabinet run near an eating area. Either way will work, but I'm favoring function by preferring what you have drawn since it places the range a bit closer to the fridge.

    I do like the idea of moving the MWV to beside the fridge, particularly if you have kids. It will be closest to the fridge and pantry, where most of the heat&eat stuff comes from. With the additional sink nearby, it also gives you a perfect place to set up an entertainment center. You can add an icemaker or a drinks fridge under the counter, glasses and party stuff above and you're all set. It's also a great place for a breakfast area since you've got all you need right in one handy place. Keeps guests and family a bit removed from the major work area.

    Also, because of a really high ceiling, we lit the island with pendants, which worked out perfectly. You could use track attached to the beams if you like, but the pendants give you a visual punch and a little more definition to the space.

     

    1. confused2 | Aug 18, 2008 03:45am | #17

      Back from the lake. Susie, that happened to me too - not being able to attach pdf's. Then the next day it worked. I think the pdf's  might be very large? Are you able to use a jpeg file instead of the pdf?

      We did a bit of a mock up on the floor & realized that a) the 12 x 12 posts are huge! Probably will scale them back and b) the inside corner is considerably smaller than it looks on paper.

      I am delighted to know that you think this is workable. Most peope give me weird looks after looking at the drawings.  I really look forward to seeing your ideas.

       

      1. susiekitchen | Aug 18, 2008 11:08am | #18

        Since I don't have my 3D program, the only option I have with my current converter is PDF. Let me see what I can do to reduce the size and I'll try again.

        If it doesn't work, I'll email you the file directly if you don't mind.

        I agree the posts could be smaller, but keep them in proportion to what's going on around them.

        susiek

        1. confused2 | Aug 18, 2008 04:52pm | #19

          Email direct would be great. Thanks so much for your help.

          1. susiekitchen | Aug 18, 2008 09:26pm | #20

            OK, if I can't attach it here I'll send it via email. Hopefully I've been able to reduce the size somewhat.

             

            File format File format
          2. confused2 | Aug 18, 2008 10:05pm | #21

            Wow, you are a dream Susie!

            "Plan A is a version of what you are thinking" - yes - you are correct - that is pretty much what we had in mind.

            " Plan B has a continuous raised top with an arc that I think makes a nice counterpoint to the angles in the plan and the loft above. A little easier to support this since the greatest depth is at the 90 in the middle. You can actually furr out the base in an arc for support and attach traditional corbels if you like."

            I do like the curve alot - does the pony wall still get built, then the wood top sits onto of it? I have no idea how get the wood top done - but guess that is the carpenter's job :)

            Plan C is an illustration of what CapnMac was saying about flipping the ovens to the opposite side. It balances what's happening on the fridge wall so your heaviest objects are in a like position. Some people, however, like the idea of a strong visual break at the end of a cabinet run near an eating area. Either way will work, but I'm favoring function by preferring what you have drawn since it places the range a bit closer to the fridge."

            I had pretty much decided to move the ovens to the plan C location & extend the lower cabinets toward the dining room - there is a patio door there onto the BBQ deck, so it will make a nice transition zone. So that function won out over the range being closer to the fridge. I also like the way you have cut the corner - will save my hips from countless bruises!

            "I do like the idea of moving the MWV to beside the fridge, particularly if you have kids. It will be closest to the fridge and pantry, where most of the heat&eat stuff comes from. With the additional sink nearby, it also gives you a perfect place to set up an entertainment center. You can add an icemaker or a drinks fridge under the counter, glasses and party stuff above and you're all set. It's also a great place for a breakfast area since you've got all you need right in one handy place. Keeps guests and family a bit removed from the major work area."

            That's what we were thinking - breakfast,  beverages, party central - just stay out of the cooks way!

            What do you think about having the pony wall / raised area wrap around to visually break  / obstruct view into the kitchen on both ends of the island? While I like that idea, I am thinking with only 8 feet, it breaks it up too much. Half thinking on the dining room end of installing a lovely hand painted blind tucked behind the loft edge  and just pulling it down when needing the block from the dining room. (like really - do guests care or does it just bother the hostess that they can see into the kitchen)

            Thanks again for your advice & help.

             

          3. susiekitchen | Aug 19, 2008 06:47pm | #22

            Glad I can help in any way!

            does the pony wall still get built, then the wood top sits onto of it?

            If you decide to raise the top on the curved version I think it would look better sitting on a pony wall. I had my installer fabricate the top on the island I did. Because of the size it was made in 2 pieces. There are a couple of wood shops around here who could have done it, but not within our schedule, so my guy did it on his own. Lengthy process and not at all cheap, but it was exactly what the well-to-do client wanted. I'll post a pic (not very good quality, I'm afraid) so you can get an idea.

             had pretty much decided to move the ovens to the plan C location

            Totally agree with that move with the patio nearby. The additional counter will be great when staging or serving food from the grill.

            What do you think about having the pony wall / raised area wrap around to visually break  / obstruct view

            The biggest mess in the kitchen for me is during prep and the pots, pans and utensils left after everything is in serving dishes. In your instance both areas are pretty exposed. If you're like me and stuff gets tossed everywhere during cooking, then having the raised area surround your counters could be a good idea. However, if you clean up as you go and put your cooking stuff directly into the DW, I'd opt to keep the ends open. I don't think many people pay as much attention to the "mess" as the cook does. We have an eat-in kitchen, not very big or efficient, and no one seems to mind holiday dinners within 5' of the sink.

            If you like the idea of raising the ends, why not do something attractive on them? I've done open display units or lit displays with glass doors there from 42-48"H. Worked in so that your columns "grow" out of them tops like those you often see in Craftsman homes and it can be a nice addition.

            Some other things:  do put a trash can/recycle unit in the prep area so that it's accessible to it and your breakfast area. Since I generally recommend 2 of these when there is more "zone" than "triangle", an additional one could be located by the range, too. I have a thing about trash cans not being readily accessible or out in the open.

            Your counter height is a matter of personal preference; 42" was typical for a long time, but lately all the ones I've done have been from 43-45". You'll find stool heights from 24-36" high, and the seat will generally be about 12" lower than the top.

            You need outlets for convenience and by code for your island. You can work these in along the raised back (they can go horizontally if nec.), on the ends or built into the face of the base cabinetry. There is also a pop-up duplex that gets built into the countertop (by Mockett, I think) that's often used in islands. Just be sure to take these into consideration as you plan - the last thing you want is to have to make last-minute revisions to your plans to avoid violating codes.

            Let me know if there's anything else I can do to help. You can email me directly if you need to.

             

  8. susiekitchen | Aug 18, 2008 02:11am | #15

    You will notice that there's nothing attached to my last post....when I try to attach the PDF it starts, then I end up at the log in again and there's no way to press DONE. What am I doing wrong??

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