I’m hoping for some suggestions on a kitchen layout too.
This space is open between the kitchen, nook and living room. It just seems all wrong to me. Don’t worry about hurting my feelings: it’s not my design. It was the collaboration of the homeowner and estimator but I’ve eliminated a structural wall and now it will be wide open for re-design.
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Replies
oops...bad pic. I'll redo the rendering.
Hey, heres a glasshouse view. I never looked at that rendering option.
Heres a pdf of the layout.
The only other option I see would be removing the ell with the sink and installing an island.
That would open things up even further. I cant explain it but there is something I dont like about the relation of the couch (living room area) and the ell. It doesnt seem like a very natural flow.
Since i've been getting blown out of the water on pricing, I gotta ask,
How much? I'm guessing if it were mine i'd have ten guys behind me willing to do the whole thing for 8 grand.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Were doing a bit of remodeling...I don't remember exactly but maybe 75k. We are doing a lot of work there though. I was shocked that the price was so low.
My first thought was that the kitchem is pretty small. Not having a good feel for the home though I am not sure.
I also felt that there were to few wall cabs, but then seeing your glasshouse, I changed my mind on that.
I don't like the asymetrical position of the range. Just a personal quirk really. I would like to see equal cabinets on either side. Also by doing so it will get the range out of the corner a bit.
I don't like the DW on the left of the sink, unless the user is left handed.
I would build a pony wall at the back of the sink "L" at least 42" high to define or delineate that space.
It's a tight space to fit a kitchen in.[email protected]
The 42" wall may help. That was my problem too, no delineation between the spaces.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Actually, I don't like anything about the layout! I like the bar idea but I'm wondering if an island can be fit in there somehow instead. The window can be moved too.
Jim ,
In a smallish kitchen this size , even though the angled base corner cabinets look nice on paper , in this case they eat into the walking / working space of the kitchen . I would make inside square corners , a lazy Susan in one and ell shaped shelves space in the other corner perhaps .Also usually the countertops cost more to do the angles depending on the material .
If I had a choice I would as suggested make the kitchen ell shaped using the refer wall and the range wall , move the table to the empty space .Put the sink in front of a larger window maybe .
If you can't use the refer wall all up , I do agree placing a high back bar on the peninsula would help the space and can also provide seating .
dusty, maker of boxes
Jim,Attach the plan, it would make it a bit easier to fiddle with ;-)http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
I couldn't upload it.I'll email it. Maybe I have to switch to IE to upload.
LOL! Maybe I should get rid of some of the Cad Blocks.
A sink or a range can be in a peninsula as you show, but one hardly ever sees one without either an extended counter level, or one raised six inches to bar height.
With a 24-depth peninsula as you show, and a sink in it, you will be walking around to the other side to pick up your Brillo pad that dropped off the edge.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
I think the estimator probably doesn't know how to built the elevated bar. They probabably had the intent of putting one in. That detail will be my job.
Thanks Jim,A first thought is to try and move the sink off the peninsular, if it has to go there then just like Gene mentioned you can simply add a half wall detail to a height of 42" to provide the backdrop.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
I have a hard time envisioning the furniture layout on open rooms like this. I think it will be easy to get a decent kitchen design but after that, the living room seems very difficult: too big but not big enough.
Jim,Open plans can be fun to work with ;-). This is a simple example of a half wall behind the peninsular.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
I'm pretty sure we'll incorporate a halfwall with a bartop if we can't figure out some other layout. I debated FatRomans idea myself about running against the one wall. I just haven't started playing with the cabinet layout. I re laid out the rest of the house and managed to create a decent wall in the living room for the entertainment center. I'm running out of time this morning so I might not get back to this till tonite. Anyways, heres a pdf of the new layouts.
Jim,My first condo had a layout much like this, except the sink was in the corner (the one closest to where your sink is currently). Same sort of one giant living room/kitchen/dining room idea, too.It worked ok, but I remember trying to turn the corner between the peninsula and the table, and no matter how you slice it, there's just not much room there. And my round table only had 4 chairs. (I'm assuming that your schematic with 6 is just a mock-up, not reality, but it's still going to be tight while moving around)What about something like this. Run the entire kitchen along the far wall (the one where your fridge is currently). No ell or peninsula. Perhaps reduce the fridge to the multiple cabinet sized ones instead of the freestanding version to provide a clean look. Eliminate the table.Put in a nicely sized island on casters that provides plenty of storage, with an overhang that allows you to seat up to 8 there. You'll have plenty of room to work, eat, spread out, and provide traffic flow between the rooms. And the island will allow you to have a movable buffer between them. Need more room in the center for entertaining? Roll the island to one side, etc.Hope that's in some way helpful.Best,
Steve'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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The circle in the latest pdf represents an 8' space for table and chairs. I'm currently sitting at a round 4' table and the 8' seems like enough. I like the idea of putting the sink in the corner. I'll play with that idea later. That table might become a much smaller table tucked into the corner. This is a small house in a small house neighborhood and the people tend to have smaller ideas on furniture. I've just never lived in a house like that since I was a kid and I don't know how to plan it anymore!
Heres an attempt at putting the sink in the corner.
It wouldn't upload because I had the plan open. I'm using version XI so you might not be able to open it.
Jim,Is that plan one with the existing and the possible?http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
The plan on the left was the one that the designer and owner created.
the plan on the right is my attempt to make room for a nook by moving the landry/water heater out of the corner. I also needed to move the front window into the are near the water heater to balance the exterior elevation view. Thier plan look odd becasue of the window location.
Jim,One of the first things that hits me is maybe losing the whole peninsular idea and going with something along the lines of what I think FatRoman had in mind.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Doesn't that create an awkward work triangle? I think that is my biggest objection. I'm really running late now. I gotta leave it at this till tonite.Thanks for all the suggestions.
The last PDF you show puts the sink in the corner and the DW adjacent to its left. This means you can't open the DW door while standing at the sink without it hitting you.You should have at least one cabinet between the sink and the DW in that condition. http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Jim,Looking at this space reminds of a kitchen I did about 8 years ago with almost the same type of space layout.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
That's perfect Joe. I'm going to use that layout. Would you use the angled base corners again?
Jim
I like that plan too.
I thought Fat Roman's idea had alot of merit for the right family.
You never mentioned the family needs.
Couple? Family of 4? Family of 6?
Eat out alot or a sit down at every meal kind of family.
Anyway I could live with that kitchen design.
This was fun. Thanks for the input all of you on my kitchen layout.
I have been very busy Sat. and all day Sunday, so I haven't contributed. Not sure I would have had any better ideas than what you recieved.
Rich
I'm going to steal Joes picture and tell them thats my rendering LOL! This is a flip that a client is doing. It is amazing how much help people give and I appreciate all the insights and advice.
Jim,You're more thank welcome to anything I put up here ;-).I didn't know it was a flip and that does put it into a different prospective. . .http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Thanks Joe for that generous offer. I really like that gif you posted with the entire wall in play. The island could take the place of the nook table if we projected it out and placed stools around three sides. It would work fine just as you picture it too. Very excellent work!
Jim,I actually explored the range in the island and decided against it. The issue was that the island would need to be about 40" across to provide a "safe zone" behind the range and there just wasn't enough room. There is also the issue of venting it, down draft, overhead hood or no venting at all.P.s. It's no trouble at all.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
I quickly ruled out the range in the island because of range hood considerations too...after I thought about it for a while. I like the looks of that last layout but I did notice that it grew in width with the addition of some 12" base units on each side of the range. I've been informed that the client is trying to stick to a strict budget (what else is new?) and she won't approve a layout that is too loaded with cabinetry. In some ways, that simplifies the design becuase it limits the creativity. I'm going to squeeze the space down again and end it at the fridge. I like the fridge there on the end near the table.
Jim
I don't like the range in the island either.
I picture myself using an island, and it's a place i would spread out the newspaper, cut up a big water melon, kneed some bread.
It's a work place at times and a eating relaxing place at other times. Or a place to dump all the groceries or good from shopping.
The range really limits how it can be used.
FYI I have never lived with a modern kitchen. No island, DW or garbage disposal.
Rich
I also looked at this as well, if this was viable I'd most likely shorten the space on both sides of the range to increase the width of the peninsular.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Best one yet...........the range is a bit close to the soon to be greasy furniture, but...........why do you keep putting the DW to the left of the sink? That's a no-no for right handed people.[email protected]
Why? Are right handed people so poor at dish handling that they can't work on their motor skills while trying to avoid washing the dishes?
For right handed folks, DW on the right is usually the way to go. Left is ok, but awkward. You have reach across yourself.
Which side of the sink is yours on?[email protected]
This one is on the right. The last one was on the left. The one before on the right. Before that right. Before that Right. I gotta stop moving. Most have been on the right and I've never thought about it. We wouldn't have had room on the one that had it on the left. Right it will be here if it's possible. Thanks for the tip.
This type of stuff is good execise. Thanks for the thread.[email protected]
I like them too. I don't mind helping others if I actually know something. I've learned a lot by reading the responses of the many who contribute. Thanks again. I'm getting a lot of flack from the boss (the salesgal) for messing with the original plan LOL! Maybe I should have just shut my trap!
Our "designer" is our main saleperson.
I disagree with her often on her design.
She isn't so much designing as selling, and with the tight reigns the boss keeps on her, she rarely if ever gets out to actually visit the site during design. That said, her design work needs some work of it's own.
Why can't we rout 3/8 thick tile into the sides of these two wall flanker cabinets?
A 36 and 12 vanity will not fit in a 46 3/4" space.............
Duh.
Stuff like that should be worked on in collaboration with the PM.
But.........she sells.
We do a lot of DIF.
Design in field!![email protected]
Eric,The funny thing about design, it's all a matter of personal taste ;-).I put it there because in the original layout it was to the left side of the sink, so I just kept it there for the subsequent designs. Which side it would go on depends on the HO in most cases.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Edited 9/8/2008 7:59 pm ET by Joe
Jim,I'm glad you like that layout, but I really don't think it's the best use of the space in your kitchen. One reason why it worked in that design was that the wall ended right at the refrigerator and there was not further options.As far as using the angled corners the answer is yes, but I would make absolutely sure to have at least a 3" pilaster (filler) on both sides of the range. If you look closely you can see that I didn't and it was a bitch getting everything of open and work right. That was the last time I let a client tell me in the design stage that he needed the 6" so please take them out. I ate it. . .Lastly you shouldn't get all worked up of the perfect working triangle, there is no such thing and a clean fluid design beats the triangle every time.I'm still liking the plan with the design along the back wall and I think you should give it some thought. You can easily add an eat at island and still have a good flowing space in my opinion.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Jim ,
The triangle is good , but the corner sink takes more room then you think for a full size access .The ones I do take about 42 - 45" in each direction .That's a lot of footage to give up for little gain .
In a larger room you could get away with it .
and it is correct that the DW access will be poor
The Ell sink in the sketch looks good on paper
What ever you do do not let the client use that config sink
regards dusty
A bar and glass cabinets with lighting above the ell would change the feel.
Formerly ANDYSZ2 but Prospero lost me.
( QYB) is my proposed racing team name .Stands for "Quit Your B..chen"
Just some quick thoughts from first impressions:
The openness between the large couch at the top of the drawing and the kitchen seems odd somehow. Maybe a narrow storage cabinet floor to ceiling in the corner and the fridge for the first four feet or so from that corner?
Put the sink where the stove is and the stove where the fridge is now?
Or put the sink where the fridge is now and leave the stove in place, then make the peninsula an eat-at bar with chairs or stools. I say putting the sink where fridge is so people using the peninsula for eating wouldn't back up into a hot stove, or the cook have trouble opening the oven door while people are sitting at the counter.
The idea from another post to put all the kitchen along one wall also has merit, or an el-shaped kitchen, previously mentioned with an island for eating might be good.
I would at least put a soffit and lights over the peninsula as it is now to delineate and separate the kitchen from the living room.
I think we probably could make a nice eating bar, maybe on an angle, and tuck a very small side table somewhere.
Here are two more ideas I had:
Move fridge to opposite wall and closer to corner, move sink to where fridge was and put the peninsula between where the kitchen table is now and the kitchen, with access from the living room to the kitchen--opening just where the old peninsula ended.
Similar to the above, but angle a peninsula from where the sink is now toward the window on the wall the fridge is on near where the kitchen table is now, with kitchen access at the end by the window (or make the peninsula an island).
I have a problem with the sink/range locations. The idea of using a peninsula instead of a partition wall is to be open to the living space, chat with guests & family, show off the kitchen skills. This all works best with the range in the peninsula. Giving the prime-time space to the sink is all wrong. Remember, the star of any kitchen is the cook, not the clean-up technician. One and the same for most of us, of course, but let the star shine - why not? Also, move the range to 24" from the end of the peninsula and allow for stool seating there instead of cramming the sofa into the corner.
Thats an interesting opinion because all along I've resisted the temptation to putting the range out in the island for safety reasons. I guess it's really not an issue and I'll give that more thought if we don't go with Joes oversize center island idea that replaces the nook table. I'm going to do a comple mockups of each with the computer.
Speaking to the safety factor, what you need to do is put a riser approx. 42" high between the range and the stool seating. This will block that errant pot of mostiacelli from landing in someone's lap, it will also visually screen the cooking area from anyone sitting at chair height.
Another thought, more conservative, is that if the Living Rm really needs to be right there, couch & all, you'd be better off with a partition wall, skip the peninsula. The two spaces need to be either integrated or separated.
Theres a wall there now. The client wants to open it up to create an open floor plan.
Opening it up is good thing, just keep in mind that what you are doing is uniting the spaces. People will enjoy chatting with the cook, tasting the food, etc while seated at the riser. But you gotta lose the couch where it was depicted. It has nothing to do with the kitchen.
-tb
I'm at a loss about how to do the furniture layout. Typically, I just dump the furniture in the rooms to give me an idea of how big the space needs are for the furniture. I think a good interior designer could bring these two rooms togther nicely.
Furniture is not too hard - a layout on grid paper with little cutouts tells a lot. If you have access to a Graphic Standards book they have lots of info on clearance spaces and so on. Putting the furniture in the room after construction doesn't leave you with a lot of lattitude for layout changes. Rememeber this: Erasers Are Cheaper Than Sledge Hammers
Another thing - before you think Island Kitchen, make sure you have room for it, which most people don't. You need an absolute minimum of 42" clearance -and 48" is much better - all the way around the island, meaning to walls, doors, other cabinets or anything else. Peninsulas are much easier to fit in.
Studio513,If you designed islands with the NKBA recommendations (48") clearance, 90% of kitchens won't have any. Those recommendations are for prefect conditions and sad to say that most kitchens don't meet that recommendation.Many remodels work quite well with 36" and 30" even with the occasional tight pass. The absolute rule would be in regards to interference and obstructions not relating to people, like opening a DW door and it hitting the island or likewise a stove or oven door.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Joe, she let me run everything along the back wall as long as I didn't add too many cabinets.
Edited 9/9/2008 3:08 pm by Jim_Allen
Jim,That's a good thing right ;-).I like the up and down look myself and use it often on designs, but the first problem I see is that if you go with crown on the cabinets, the higher cabinets will also need to be deeper then the ones adjacent to them.This isn't a problem for the cabinet above the stove as getting one 15" deep shouldn't be a problem, but the one over the refrigerator will need to be at least 27" deep and most times might be a problem to get from a custom cabinetmaker let alone a stock maker like kraftmaid lets say.Also the depth of the higher cabinets is really a function of the crown size, the "bigger/taller" the more forward it will project. Somethings to kept in mind when plan and costing. . .http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Why deeper? I guess you can tell I don't have much experience with cabinet installation and design. This client is supplying the cabinets. She's already decided to go with a big box supplier so I'm sure they'll take our offering and tweak it up anyways.
Jim,Looks good. Do I get an extra milkbone for proposing that layout originally? LOLI think what Joe was getting at with the deeper cabinets was that if they are all the same depth, the middle cab doors will be opening into the crown returns on the shorter cabinets next to them.But that's just a guess. Best,
Steve'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Yes...milkbones galore to you!!!! It took awhile for the original design team to capitulate. I basically had to admit that everything I was thinking of was wrong, useless, not needed and too expensive LOL! I understand now about the crown. The doors would get torqued off.
Jim,Even though I like that design I do have one problem with it, it does nothing to help define the space as a kitchen even though it looks like one. In short it basically looks like you lined it up against the wall. . .Turning one corner would have went far in helping define the space in my opinion, but that why they call it design ;-).Here is a pic of the condition you'd like to create with the upper cabinets.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
I thought about turning the corner but then I remembered the budget. The client loved the design, so I'm okay with it. She's buying all the cabinets from a big box so they'll probably try to steer her into some variation. I don't mind. The only thing that cant change is the front window. I thought about how that crown would terminate and your picture shows the easiest solution. Do you use custom depth cabinets or just furr them out?
Jim,75% of the kitchens I do I make so getting what I need isn't a problem. The other 25% I design using stock cab's in 3" intervals and it's not usally a problem getting the depths I need, but some cab lines don't offer them and in that case I'll just pad the box out when I install it.The simplest solution to getting a 27" deep cab over the refrig or padding the box is just to bring the tall cab to the same high. http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Edited 9/11/2008 8:51 am ET by Joe
Yeah, if you don't use reasonable clearances [not below 42"] then most kitchens will not have islands. That's because most kitchens should not have islands. Can't put 12 pounds of...anything...in a 10 pound pail. Giving the client "what they asked for" even though they don't have the space for it is giving them permanent and expensive problems. As a pro it is our responsibility to visualize that space and make it work, not fill the order like the dude behind the counter at McDonalds.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Tell that to the Japanese.
Now there's nothing wrong with a small kitchen - or a small house for that matter - you just can't cram in the same elements found in bigger places. Peninsulas work in lots of kitchens that don't work with an island. A U-shape or a galley can also work in a smaller space, and work real well. But you need considerable square footage for an island.
I don't disagree with that. I think the greater point is that sometimes, in smaller houses, everything will not be ideal. Generally speaking, people who live in smaller houses tend to accept "bumping" and "squeezing" sometimes.
I don't understand the "But you need considerable square footage for an island" the kitchen that jim has in the last rendering is similar to what I was thing of except on a different wall.
It has an island it does not require much more space then the kitchen in his first drawing. His last drawing is a basic galley kitchen without a wall as you your self said "A U-shape or a galley can also work in a smaller space, and work real well" . So I do not see how it takes up more space to have an island. All that matters is how big the island is. and how much of a breakfast bar there is.By the way I have a u shaped kitchen it has 50.5 inches counter top edge to edge, and is 74 inches counter top edge to counter top end. Aprox 25 sq feet of floor space, during parties do you know where people hang out? The 25 sq thats where, I wind up with 5 or 6 people in there. But I love cooking in it if I am the only person there, nothing is more then an arms length away. It is the worst kitchen in the world but I love it.Wallyo
Tell them what? That we should all have McMansions with all the accoutremants thereof? The whole idea of japanese minimalism is stripping away what you don't need, not having a kitchen island because your neighbor with 5 times the income has one. What do you need? That is the question.
I managed to get permission to do something like this. I must have said/done the right thing.
This does not have much to do with the layout but either;
Move the door to the yard to the window that is behind the arm chair on the right.,
or to one of the windows where the table is.
Another option swap the kitchen area and table area
or swap the sitting area with the kitchen/dining area.
I hate it when the door to the yard is a mile from the kitchen, then you have to go through a football training course to get food and drink to the yard. What is with the coffee table, you have to walk around? Maybe she does not care about this now but when it is done or she is selling she might.
Where is the garage/driveway, what is the path one takes to get milk and ice cream from the car to the fridge?
The chairs in the sitting area are twelve feet from the couch! do you sit that far from your guests? Move them closer and they are in the path to the rest of the house from the kitchen.
Those are my problems with it, sorry to be so blunt but the room as a whole is missing any sort of dynamic flow.
Wallyo
Edited 9/8/2008 9:52 pm ET by wallyo
"Those are my problems with it, sorry to be so blunt but the room as a whole is missing any sort of dynamic flow."I agree! That is my main issue. There is no garage LOL! The area that is the kitchen used to be a one care garage. Right now, it's some kind of bad funky family room or bedroom.
"The area that is the kitchen used to be a one car garage"Explains why the heater in in the "great room area" then and the exterior door is where it is.
If I think of an solution, will let you know.
Edited 9/9/2008 10:58 am ET by wallyo
Jim how about this, I do not have time to draw it but an open galley style kitchen. Start about the wall where the couch is, place the fridge there, run a bank of cabs upper and lower along that wall maybe a pantry cab at the end by the right wall, range or sink in the center.Four feet from that bank an island of cabs with again either a range or sink in the center of that or off center so you are not rubbing butts with the person using what is behind in center. Keep island smaller then the wall run so it is not touching the right wall.This avoids costly corner cabs, move the entrance to the kitchen closer to the entry to the room, gets you closer to the present door to the yard, allows furniture to be put any where (as long as lighting can be flexible, a track of some type that allows hanging lights, maybe two or three prewired boxes with blank covers once table location is decided}Wallyo
at the very least swap the couch with the 2 chairs, that would open up space in front of the peninsula for some bar stools
also move the fridge closer to the window, that would net more counter space.
if I could redesign the whole thing I would eliminate the smaller window and put all the cabinets on the walls with the sink under the double window. then build an island/eating area and loose the table and chairs
"if I could redesign the whole thing I would eliminate the smaller window and put all the cabinets on the walls with the sink under the double window. then build an island/eating area and loose the table and chairs"There are no windows usable in the space now. We are reframing the entire end and we can put the windows whereever. We could move the front door too.
if you have the option of moving windows then use that whole end of the house to your advantage. A "U" shaped layout on the outer walls with a nicely detailed island could tie the whole area together
also, the table and chairs could be integrated with the 2 living room chairs for more formal dining in a moments notice
I like the idea but I've already been warned that the budget is tight and theres no more room for cabinet cash LOL!