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We are in the design fase of a complete kitchen remodel with a design-build firm. We really like their design and the interaction so far has been good, but the total price tag is higher than we had hoped. This in and of itself is not the issue, the issue is that we don’t know if the labor rates they charge are fair for this area (Northern Virginia, which I think is one of the most expensive in the nation after San Francisco and NYC).
Do you have any tips on how to find out if their rates are reasonable. We want to pay the going labor rate and we want them to make a profit, but right now we have no idea if we are being treated fairly in this respect.
The remodel entails gutting the kitchen, replacing one bank of windows with slightly bigger ones and opening up a non-load bearing wall to the living room. The ‘allotment’ for cabinets, appliances, countertop etc comes in at 29k (no tax) based on our selections (some of which are expensive). They say it’s a 6 week project and will have a project leader on site every day in addition to the rest of the workmen. Any thoughts on how much the total cost (no tax) for this project should be?
Any insight (even if it’s just to tell me you can’t compare these things) is appreciated. We have not been able to find any cost comparisons anywhere and short of asking another company to go through the process (which we don’t want to do since it would be a waste of their time if we went with company #1 after all), I don’t know how to get the info I need.
Replies
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Tessa,
Why don't you ask the design/build firm how they arrived at their number.
Did you start this relationship with a outline of your budget expectation?
Have they exceeded that number? And how and when did that happen?
I assume you have asked for, and been quoted a price for service. Not a labor rate. Up until now, this firm has figured out what you want, designed it, chased down the products, produced a final number, promised to have a super there every day, get the deal done in 6 weeks and, again, I assume, provides for service and warrantee after they go away.
Sounds like a $50,000- $75,000.00 or more, kitchen to me.
Also sounds like there is a lingering lack of trust. Talk to them.
If in the end, you still lack that trust, fire them (after cheerfully paying all liquidated damages), hire a new outfit, tell them up-front the big three:
The program: What you want......(a custom kitchen w/ alterations.)
The budget: What you want to spend.
The quality: What are your expectation for not only products, but service.
But forget about figuring labor rates, you've purchased a service, not a bunch of labor.
*Have you asked them their labor rate? How much they mark stuff up? What their warrenty covers, and for how long? Six weeks is mighty tight for what you described. If they make it happen, to your satisfaction , in 6 weeks, I'd say they're at least pros. Do you have written sucess criteria? Dates of completion, and a procedure established that you both will follow when things don't progress exactly as planned (like on most remodels).Do you trust these people? Why in the world would you trust someone in your home for 6 weeks, and with, what, 35, 40 thousand dollars, if you are willing to take the advice of a bunch of people you don't know over the internet? Think about it.As for pricing, there's no way anyone here could possibly testify to how close their estimate is based on the information you've provided. Anyone who tried would just be guessing.Keep talking, with those builders, and with others if you have to, until you are completely comfortable with whoever is going to do the work, and you think you understand what it will cost and why. Remodeling, or building, a house with a builder should be more like a partnership than an adversarial relationship. You should be working WITH whoever does the work.
*I know of no tips, but plain old accounting works well. For example, if the bid is 50,000 and you subtract 30,000 for materials, the remainder is 20,000. divide that by 30 days and you get 667/day. For 667/day you should get a crew worth 83/hr. Say a foreman @50, apprentice @35. Of course it's not quite that simple but it will give you a lot of knowledge to work with. Another important part is to get some sort of guaranty that your project won't get backburnered for a couple of weeks if the company has stretched their resources. It's very frustrating to see a couple of guys come in for a half day while your cooking in the garage.
*Hi Mark,Thanks for your response! They have given us a breakdown of all the 'non-allotment' costs, and the biggie in that one is (you guessed it) labor. You are right in saying that they have figured out what we want, they have done an excellent job in that. We also like their promise of 6 weeks project, super on site etc. The bottom line is, we like this company, their method of working and the work done so far, except for the fact that they came in 20% over the high end of the budget range (which was given in the first discussion) and gave the impression this was not unusual and we'd be able to get in budget through allotment changes. We weren't, even though we took 25% out of the allotment. We are now very close to the top end of the range, which is doable financially. The only thing left (and I guess you're right it's a lingering lack of trust issue) is that we are not sure we aren't paying more for the service than is customary. And that wouldn't be a bad thing unless we are paying WAY more.You have a good point in that we hired them to provide a service, not just labor though. I will go and ponder this. :)
*Thanks Teo. Math was never my strongsuit but I will use this to come up with a basic figure, that should at least give us some idea.
*Tessa,Why are you reluctant to get other estimates? The usual advice is get at least 3 estimates and references from each contractor. The other estimates will be less trouble since you now know what you want. The usual advice is don't necessarily go with the cheapest guy - carefully consider what each is offering and that you are comparing the same job among the contractors. That way, you can get a better feel for what is reasonable and you can ask the one you like best and whom you feel most comfortable with about the things you don't quite understand. You don't want to be obnoxious and demand why one charges x more than another and that he meet the other offer no matter what, but he should be willing to explain why his offer is a better value. If he isn't willing or can't explain, then you have good reason not to trust him. That means find another you can trust. It's a big investment, so you should be comfortable with your contractor. No contractor should be upset with having to compete for your business. They should expect it. Check out the references too.Mary
*Tesaje,Estimates on what? The other guy's work? Tessa HIRED a design/build firm. As I understand it, she didn't produce the design, do all the product research, help herself make the final selections of products that got her to the point of having something to "bid" on.The firm she HIRED did all that. And I think she only needs to find out how the budget got blown.She needs to ask the people she hired.And if she can't come away with an answer that produces a trusting relationship, she needs to pay for the services received and start over.3 bids suck. Your advice is outdated and IMHO, borders on theft.
*Tessa - Jim has very valid points. It doesn't really matter what we think but what you think. If they have done a great job so far and you are happy with the plan then I don't necessarily see the problem. You say they came in at the high end of the spectrum and budget. How did you arrive at your budget figures? Maybe your budget figures were not necessarily in line with the job you are asking to have done. I'm not a fan of only getting one price on a large remodel like that unless you have had some previous experience with the contractor or they come highly recommended drom someone you trust.SJ
*Mary, we are reluctant to ask another firm to get involved precisely for the reason Mark states. We put a deposit down with this firm and they came up with the design based on our (very detailed) input. We did do a lot of product research for appliances ourselves and also spent a lot of time reviewing their plans, but they did a lot (a lot) more work than our deposit was worth. They explained early on that that is their part of the investment and we like that about them too.Steve, our budget was initially supposed to cover another project as well. We came to the realization that that wasn't realistic very early on in the process, but after we started talking to this company. So they were aware of our budget considerations and that we were hoping to do 2 projects for that money. They said that it may be possible based on what architectural changes we would make. Turns out that it wasn't even close. In any case, you could be right that what we want and the amount we were planning to spend are out of synch. The problem is that I can't find any data anywhere on whether it is or not. And that's what makes it slightly uneasy. Not the figure itself so much.Mark is right that we need to address this with the company we hired (and I do consider this a hire, not a bid). We're now in the process of doing that.Thanks everyone for your input!
*Tessa,As a GC I bid jobs based on what it will take for me to do what a client wants.I don't concern myself with what other contractors are paying their help or what their costs of doing buisness are.What the local going labor rate is really doesn't mean anything to me,I know what it costs me to do the type of quality work we're ..how shall I put it famous for.What you have to decide is are they worth it, if they are do it.If not get someone else.I would think you'll have to pay for their design work in any case.You can always find some cheap hack to do the job and then be disappointed with the result,but you will save money.Vince
*I cannnot imagine doing a custom quality design job for less than 50 K My instinct from all you've said here is that this is a good professional firm. Work and communicate with them and you'll be happy.I'd rather have a customer less than happy with the price and more than happy with the work than the other way around.
* You can always find some cheap hack to do the job and then be disappointed with the result,but you will save moneyVincent, this is not what we're looking for. We aren't looking for the lowball bid, we aren't looking to get the cheapest possible job and we aren't looking to take their profit and put it in our own pocket. What we are looking for is comparison of comparable jobs in the area and see how the price relates to ours. We expect ours to be a little higher, since we think they do good work. But we can't find anything that's comparable (in scope or price) and so have nothing to go by.
*Believe me, if it were close to 50k, we wouldn't be having this discussion! :)But you have a good point in that it's result that is going to stay with us, not the price. Still, now is the time to raise these concerns, while the contract for the full job has not been signed yet and construction has not been started or officially scheduled.On a different note, why is it so hard to find cost information on remodel jobs. With everything that is out there on the web, why is there nothing that compares different kinds of remodels cost-wise (to the consumer), potentially for different parts of the country? Sure, it won't be accurate to the dollar or even the nearest 100 or 1000 dollars, but it would give an indication. The only indications we have found (and it's not much) are so far off our final price as offered.
*I'm really curious about this. Aside from the design process that Tessa describes — I'd like to know what is going on that will take 6 weeks.From her description: I would think that gutting the kitchen would take 1 day, with the help of a couple of friends. After all, it's just a matter of removing the cabinets. Or are all the walls coming down and floor coming up? Another day.Removing a window, framing up a slightly larger one? Seems to me that it also could be done in 1 day.Opening up a wall into the living room? Same story here, but I'll give another day or two to finish.New walls? 3 days. New floor? 1 day. Putting in the new cabinets? 2 days max.Something's missing here. Please tell me what.
*Building the cabinets, installing the hardware, making the doors, drawers, drawer fronts, preparing for and polishing the same, etc., etc., maybe? I have a feeling Tessa may be talking about a built-in custom, one-off job, but may have mis-read that a bit. Slainte, RJ.
*Tessa - The reason you'll have problems finding comparable jobs is that there are so many variables in remodeling that virtually every job is unique. The things you can price yourself, like cabinets, countertops, flooring, windows, are the easy things, products. The tough things to price are things you can't look up in a catalog, like labor required to demo the original kitchen without going too far, or patch the transition where you remove that wall, or transport materials and debris on and off your property without damaging anything, or the knowledge of what cabinet companies to avoid, or do the initial design in the first place...countless other things. Plus, factor in supply and demand of professional help and the fact that every company that does this type of work has misjudged other jobs in the past and has to make a profit to help see them through these mistakes, along with economic fluctuations and you start to get a picture of why one company estimates a job at 100k and another estimates the same job at 70k. Even looking at other jobs the same contrator has done will only tell you what that particular customer was willing to invest. Maybe you could learn more about your builder by finding a job that didn't go well, it happens to most companies. It's easy to shine when everything goes smoothly. How the someone handles adversity probably reveals more about their character.
*Tessa, it seems to me you should be talking to your design/build firm. Why is the project over budget ? What needs to change to get it in budget ?If they offer to knock a few thousand off to get you to sign the contract, you'll know they had a lot of fat in their numbers. If they say you'll have to make some compromises on what you want, then I'd say their estimate is probably close to fair. I can't imagine how you could ever do a website that would provide the type od info you're looking for on remodelling. There are just too dang many variables to ever hope to arrive at an estimate without seeing the job. If the price is "higher than you'd hoped", it's not necessarilly the fault of the design build firm. Wanting more than you can afford is the norm, not the exception. And wanting more than is reasonable for what you want to spend is also normal.
*Tessa K ,
View Image"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Tessa, I always find these 'cost comparison' threads fascinating. I speak as a visiting limp wrist from Knots, so furniture is my game, and some of it is built-in stuff, but not built-in custom kitchens. I don't know how to tell you to find out what is a 'fair' price really, but as a designer and maker of custom one-off pieces of furniture I've found that there is a certain need for an element of trust between the client and myself. Both of us have to take a bit of a leap into the dark. You have to trust me to produce what I say I'll produce, and I have to trust you to pay me for the work I do, but I do demand and get a deposit before I start. ;-)All I can do to reassure clients is point them at previous work and its cost, and rely on my reputation for producing such items. Have you looked at previous work done by this company? I have to assume you have, and they will have given you costs for these other jobs. If your project is in line regarding scope, quality, etc., with one or two of these previous projects, then that should give you some kind of guideline to work around. Personally, I sell a complete package, e.g., this item will cost you $15,000 delivered to your home, or whatever. If anyone asks for a breakdown of my prices into materials costs, labour costs, delivery costs, taxes, etc., I begin to assume that they don't entirely trust me, and I start to feel reluctant about doing the job. I'm not sure that any of this is much help because, of course, I am in a slightly different line of work from that on which you seek informationt. Slainte, RJ.
*Just to clarify, this is not a one-off custom job, they are stock cabinets all around. They will have crown molding so they look more built in. Island, honed granite counter (which is of course custom, but I guess they always are), high-end range/hood, middle-end fridge and we are keeping the current dishwasher. No other appliances (ok, trash disposal too...), wood floor to match living room. I understand that most peoples wants are not in synch with their budget. However, the 'allotment' for cabinets, appliances and counter is far less than half of the total cost. And other than materials for floor, and lighting, almost all the non-allotment cost is labor.Everybody who is saying that we need to talk to the remodeling company is right, and we took your advice. Thanks.
*Hi RJ, thanks for your post, I did find that helpful actually. I realize it requires a leap of trust and I guess the issue is that there is a bit of lack of it on our side right now. This is mostly caused by their ignoring of our budget. When we first met them, we said 'this is the bag of money we have, we definitely want to do the kitchen and with any money left over we want to see if we can do some other improvement'. The initial design was 20% over the high end of our range. We told them that that was too much and how to proceed and they responded that the best thing to do was to get the subcontractors bids and review things and see how close we could get. They pointed out that we had some expensive items in the allotment and we made some changes to that to cause the allotment to go down 20% or so. However, the total project price didn't go down any further than the amount we had saved in the allotment.We had seen their work (this is why we are working with them, we really like their design style), checked references, the Better Business Bureau and all was well. The prices for projects they showed us were allotment only, and roughly in line with ours.Way more information than you wanted. But I feel better for typing it! :)
*Thanks Jim, I appreciate your explanation!
*Joseph, just out of curiosity, why don't you like to comment on posts like these? (And thanks for your comments here, by the way...).
*Tessa,
View Image"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*The common thread of advice here is open up communication. You have a right to act in your best interests. You need to have a CLEAR list of questions and have NO assumtions about the project.Judging by how I read your posts, I'm beginning to have doubts about your designer. Anyone can design a kitchen without regarding the budget!! Ethically, it is the designers responsibility to control the budget and let you know, step by step, when your requests are out of line with the cost. If I hired an architect to design a 100k house and he came back with a 300k, I would not feel obligated to pay him a dime.
*Tessa,What I still seem to be understanding is that you want to find another project like your's and compare their price with the other project.Am I correct?So what this really means to me is you just don't trust them and are afraid they're taking advantage of you.Somehow this seems to relate to the fact that they came in over your budget.You also seem to think that by buying less expensive detail items this should lower not only the cost of the items but the labor to install them.If you buy 50k worth of cabinets or 20k worth of cabinets they still take the same amount of time to install,so no change in labor cost.It's the same with flooring ,counter tops, trimdoors ,lighting,everything.You have to decide what its worth and can you trust them.Vince
*Okay, if none of you is gonna ask it I will. What are they asking for dollar wise for the whole job, bottom line it for us. What is the size of the space overall that they are dealing with and how old is the existing structure? Plaster or drywall? How big are the windows, what kind and what are they replacing? Does the 29K involve the flooring materials, windows , lighting electric and plumbing roughs? Need more info.
*I think the issue is what caused you to trust this company to design your kitchen? Has that changed?If so- how and why?Doesn't much matter where they fall in some sliding scale of labor cost. You are either confident in their ability to deliver an end result you are pleased with or not.You know your budget- If the price is fair for the service rendered then you have no business asking how much they charge an hour. Are you comfortable that you will get what you want in a kitchen? Can you afford it?Walk away if the answer to either is no and keep fishing. (With a bruised wallet- but smarter...)
*Tessa,What else can YOU do to reduce the cost other than beating up the contractor? If you beat him up too much, it will leave a sour taste in his mouth and somewhere, somehow, the same will end up in yours.When I did my kitchen, I too was shocked by the cost but recognized the overall value being added was the intellectual design component that was unable to be added between the wife and myself.But I addressed the excessive cost by doing much of the "complications" either myself or hiring my own labor at time and material. These complications were items such as moving the HVAC ducts, painting, drawer pulls, etc. Since I had other improvements going on at the same time, my electrician handled that part, my plumber did his, my drywall guy did his on a Sunday, my carpenter did the reframing, my floor man did the travertine. This kept their work out of the kitchen remodelers hands as well as another markup.Now, mind you, this came at a cost. I had to supervise and that took my away from my day job and the income it could generate. In some cases it made the job flow smoother, in others, it cost time. But overall, the true value the kitchen designer offered was focused upon his area of expertise, not diluted among the others.But overall, the final job's quality will be found in the style and details. Expect to pay for that - some way.One last hint - DO NOT let the color of the cabinets become a minor issue. Don't let anyone push you to make a quick decision. Get sample doors of several hues and compare to your countertops and floors before any final decision is made. Obviously, this was my big mistake.
*teo, Architects are not capable of designing to budget. Never have seen it, dont expect it. Architects are artists that provide a rendering of a project. The best they can do is use rule of thumbs to estimate a project, consequently they are seldom right.
*Peter - your broad-brush description of architects as "artists that provide a rendering of a project" indicates that you don't have a very good grasp of what they are all about. It's the equivalent to an architect saying "all builders are hacks."Architects are frequently put between a rock and a hard place at the outset of a project - they want to satisfy an owner who may, or (more likely) may not have a good sense of what things cost. That owner frequently says "I want X project for Y dollars" when X does not equal Y. It's your first meeting with someone and you have to put their champagne taste on a beer budget, tactfully. Sometimes they say "X" when they really mean "Y" all along.There is more to this business of building than 'being right.'Jeff
*Tessa - You might look at the issue of honed granite. To my knowledge (limited as it may be, apparently) nearly all commercial slab granite for countertop material is polished. Therefore, from most suppliers you would expect an upcharge to hone the finish. There are one or two granites that don't take polishes well and thus are commercially available honed (only) at no upcharge.PS - I grew up in No. Va. (Fairfax) and agree that it is an expensive market today, much as is ours (central NJ). I'm guessing from the sound of it that your overall remodel project is in the $90K - $110K range. You can certainly ask about labor rates - a first class kitchen cabinet mechanic around here gets billed out at about $75/hour from a kitchen company, higher than a lead carpenter. You can also ask for a schedule of values, or more detailed breakdown, that will help you assess where costs may be concentrated.Jeff
*As a DIYer who just finished my a remodel on my 1909 kitchen, new e-, new plumbing, new gas line, new breakfast bar that was wall, tore out old carpet/tile/partical refinished original floor, custom cabinets, BB counter top, high end apps (Ok, still have old frig wife says it will go in the spring), and kept it under 15K. I paid for the cabinets and counter top and sweat in the rest. Did take me most of the summer though. This thread is making me feel pretty good.
*Jeff-I agree that designers/architects are put in a difficult position of having to tell the customer that they cannot have their dreams and their budget as well. But all too often they do not tell the customer that but simply design the dream. Sometimes this is the right thing to do. The customer will come up with the money and be glad that they did. Other times the builder has to be the one who tells the customer no and this has left many of us with a sour taste in our mouths and a customer who thinks that we are gouging them because our price is so much higher than the budget. In Tessa's case the designer and builder are one and the same, so there is no one to blame but the principle is still the same.This project will be a big deal. It will take over your life for the duration. If the project is smooth and the results are satisfactory, the extra money you spend will be well worth it.
*I guess im having a bad week dealing with a customer that has champagne taste with a beer budget. They all want to know how come it costs so much, well aside from the obvious labor costs there is my workers comp ins, my liability ins, my truck and van payments,gasoline, my tool depreciation, my retirement savings, my medical ins. and then whats ever left over i use to take care of my household bills and after that i hope i have a little left over. Most of these people that complain work for companies that match them in there 401k, and when they get sick and stay home they still get paid, and lets not forget all the paid holidays and medical ins thats taken care of for them too. So to all of you homeowners that want the top of the line job done for a nickle, factor in all of these other cost to and thats why the jobs cost what they do. WoW! that felt good! Sorry guys just had to vent a little.
*Sometimes, what might otherwise seem like small decisions to a homeowner can have a significant impact on a project budget. People buy a Jacuzzi (sorry not a kitchen example) thinking that the cost of a Jacuzzi is the $4,000 sticker price. It has to be i installedtoo; it may have its own hot water heater; it needs $2,000 in fittings, power, grilles, etc. etc. It's not a $4,000 line item, but that's the number that becomes fixed in the mind.Then there are the two dread diseases that we must be ever-vigilant for:- whilewereatit, midaswellitis (since we're tearing up the house anyway, midaswell add another bathroom, family room ...)and the other serious disease for which there is no name - the one where people feel that, once they are spending a i lotof money on something (in their opinion), all sorts of things that they didn't think about in advance should ultimately be included at no charge (sound familiar?).
*Tessa,I am a DIY'er and I'm pretty sure you're not - I like things to be nice, comfortable and practical and you sound like you like things to be a showpiece - I take pride in living with relatively little income and it sounds to me like you have money to burn (though, I'm sure you don't think you do - no offence intended)So we come at these things from very different perspectives - I'm not sure if I can help you in any way you would want to be helped. The other responses here have been appropriate to your question as you posed it. I would like to suggest a couple of things, though;1) You mentioned a new, slightly larger window and opening up a wall. Barring plumbing and HVAC issues, these two aspects of the job are simple, strait forward jobs do able by any competent craftsman in 2-3 days. These two alterations alone, will make a huge change in the character of your kitchen "experience". Might that be enough? $2,000-4,0002) Add new appliances, as we all need to do from time to time, but buy them yourself at the local dealer, who will be happy to deliver them for free and maybe hook them up, too. Do you really need a 5K-10K oven/range? There is fine homebuilding and there is a damn fool waste of money. I'll never forget the time the plumber we hired sent us to the "show room" he worked with to look at $500 toilets that looked identical to the $100 toilets at our DIY store. Maybe the show room product was better quality - I don't know - but I got that $100 toilet installed after much grumbling on the part of the plumber and it didn't give me any trouble in all the thousands of times I used it. $3,000-6,0003) If you really need new cabinets/countertops (and some older styles can be really ugly, so I understand) I can't offer much perspective here because I have no idea what your needs are - # of cabinets, footage of counter, etc. - but, if your tastes can handle it, some unconventional solutions can be much less expensive. An artistic person could create stunning paint effects on old cabinets and make them look new. A ceramic tile countertop can be stunning and surprisingly cheap. etc, etc.I guess the point here is that you could get at least 80% of the kitchen "experience" improvement you imagine - if what you imagine is the least bit practical - by lowering your sights a bit and thinking outside the box. And you could do it at less than half the cost you are contemplating now. Do it this way and you'll have enough money left over to buy a new Lexus - or better yet, send a poor deserving kid to a state college for four years.Best of luck to you, and I hope you don't take my little barbs too personally.-Randy
*I just had this experience related to me...At the store there were three stainless steel sinks, one for $69, one for $159 and one for $239. They were all the same material and gauge and similiar size and shape. When asked of the salesman what the difference was, he replied, "Customers prefer a range of price points. Otherwise, they are all the same." True story.
*Randy missed the fact that T has engaged a design build firm. Besides overcoming some of the architect/builder conflicts, this typr of approach is more effecient in other ways too by keeping all the decision process in one place. Now if T goes out shopping and finds things cheaper the whole design in whioch she has several hundred if not thousands of dollars invested goes out the window. I've had it done to me. One obvious example - the design called for a french doors set 5'4" wide with one openning to lie flat in a corner and the other oppenning to lie flat at the wall bottom of stairs.Owner decided to buy all the windows and doors. The salesperson talked them into a six foot wide door set because it was "standard" and would cost 150 less for a bigger door. They didn't tell me so enlarging the openning cost plenty when the door showed up - move wiring - new header - patch sheetrock - now doors won't open - one lies in front of stairs -move over closer to corner - now it sets at angle to corner and wastes floor space. That change cost a couple thousand and ruined the design but they wouldn't consider sending it back - ego thing - the owners never make mistakes. I had worked all this out in the beginning to work right and they threw it all away to save a couple bucks and eneded up spending way more. In the future, all my designs do not get changed without approval from me first. Why should a person hire a design/build firm and them let the salesman or a DIY neighbor tell them how to build and what to buy? Every change costs money.
*Hi Jeff! I can't tell you how excited I am to hear you say you used to live in this area (I'm in Fairfax County also). Our project is in the range you mentioned. And we know the honed granite is a luxury item, sold at a premium (the granite guy told us that they sell roughly 1 in a thousand slabs honed and the rest polished). But that and the range are the only luxury items (as I see it) in a 200 sq ft kitchen that comes in at 90k. Still, if that's what it costs in this area, that's what it costs.We have also thought about it this way: if we downgraded all our appliances, cabinets, counter, floor etc to cheap stuff (this is just an exercise, not something we are planning on!), we'd still be spending roughly 60k. Does it really really cost that much? Again, if it does, it does, but yours was the first confirmation I found anywhere. I do really appreciate it.We are still waiting to hear back from our remodeling company.
*Everybody who I haven't responded to directly: thanks for your input and advice. It's getting a little too time consuming to respond to everything (I didn't think this thread would go this long!) but I did read all your comments and advice and appreciate your input.Tessa
*i Our project is in the range you mentionedIt must be a miracle, since architects don't know anything ...Budget - 200SF kitchen, expensive area of country:Demo, protection, disposal (complete gut).................$3,500 - 4,000General renovation (200 SF @ $160-180/SF)......$32,000 - 36,000Appliance budget (typical range) ...........................$ 9,000 - 18,000Cabinets (stock but high quality) ...........................$18,000 - 28,000Inserts and specials (allow) ......................................$ 1,000 - 2,000Countertops (special granite) .................................$ 9,000 - 13,000Allow for special faucets, instahots, etc .......................$ 800 - 1,500Kitchen installation (allow) .......................................$ 3,500 - 4,500 Budget total (range).............................................$76,800 - 103,000Say roughly 80-100 K based on relatively high-end taste in a pricey area of the country. A little lower than I thought now that I know that it's only 200 SF.How does this compare? Remember, I can't see your house and I've been told I'm not very smart.With kitchens, it's important to balance your approach - it's going to seem strange to have a $6,000 DCS dual-fuel range sitting on cheap sheet vinyl, or high-end fancy granite sitting on budget cabinets.I'm with Jim - I think that 6 weeks is a little tight, too. Remember, your definition of "complete" and the D-Builder's may be a little different <>.Hope that helps Jeff
*Hi Randy,Well, it's hard to not take your post a little personally, I have to admit. From your post I understand you don't approve of what we plan to do with our money and that is of course perfectly fine. However, I do think that you jump to conclusions if you say I want things to be a show piece as opposed to comfortable and practical. For the record, I drive a 11 year old Honda Civic that I have no intention trading in for a Lexus or SUV or whatever. Cars are not important to me. But the house is important, and the kitchen is the most important piece to us. It may sound hard to believe, but functionality is our primary goal here, not impressing the neighbours.That being said, you are right in saying that putting in a window and opening up the wall will only cost a fraction of what the current projected cost is, and give a large part of the improvement. I don't necessarily disagree and we are currently considering doing the window first and seeing what else to do. We can't open up the wall without getting new cabinets/counter because it's a cabinet/counter wall. And without opening up that wall, the kitchen remains a closed in space with no path to outside (there is a patio in front of the kitchen that you cannot get to) and no connection to the living room.As for painting cabinets and thinking outside the box, I see your point. In our previous home, where we didn't plan to stay for the rest of our lives, we did just that. Painted the cabinets, replaced the dingy laminate counter with a nice laminate counter, put a new deep sink and pullout faucet in, and we were quite happy with that kitchen. Because it wasn't our ultimate kitchen. (And by the way, we did all of this ourselves. Had to throw that in somewhere!). The cabinets here are (in my opinion) beyond salvation. They have already been (very poorly) painted once, and they are impractical anyway.Do you have to have a high-end range and honed granited counter to have a functional kitchen? No. But if cooking and related matters are important to you and you want high quality materials durable, are they that outragous to put in the most important room of the house you plan to stay in for decades? Not to me. This is of course where everybody's priorities differ and that's ok. We only bought this house a few months ago and are planning to stay here for a loooooong time. We wanted a house without an updated kitchen because we wanted to get 'our' kitchen in. And we were lucky enough to such a house, which needs work in most other areas as well. The money we saved on the purchase price of the house, because of its size and cosmetic condition, is for a large part what allows us to do this remodel. I know I don't have to justify myself or my (our) money and that you didn't intend for me to that, but that's just the part where it's hard to take your post 'not too personal'.In any case, I do appreciate your thoughts (honest!), and I agree with some of them. I hope though that you realize that you can't judge me or my values from a inherently incomplete picture.Tessa
*Jeff,Thanks so much, that helps a lot. We are smack in the middle of that total budget range. However, the cost of the cabinets is much lower than your allowance, as is the countertop, and the appliance budget is at the low end of your range. We are using Kraftmaid cabinetry, which is stock but from I have gathered good quality. We also upgraded it to All Plywood Construction (by the way, if anybody wants to comment on that, go right ahead).We are putting in the high end Dacor (not DCS... :) ) stove with Viking hood, but a moderate Amana fridge and we already have a dishwasher we want to keep. No microwave or anything else. If I go by your list above, and the difference in the appliances/counter/cabinets, than we are perfectly around what we wanted to spend.Thanks for pointing out the 'balance' factor. We are aware of that and I don't think there are any issues there. Like I said, the cabinets are stock but good quality, and have full-extension drawers, pull out trays and such that make the cabinets very nice (well, that's what I think anyway!).Thanks again.
*Glad you feel better Dave! :)
*Anyone who thinks that a $100 toilet sold at (you know) and an "identical" $500 toilet sold elsewhere are the same should talk to a plumber and find out what the realities of:(1) Unglazed trapwayand(2) 1-1/4" diameter outletwill really mean in the long haul. Maybe WetHead Warrior will comment on that.I say this because the essence of this post is "getting what you pay for" and today, more than ever, costs are so high that homeowners are eager to believe that a product that costs 25% of an 'identical' product is reality.Caveat emptor.Jeff
*All plywood is worth every penny. Full extension, too. I was assuming a higher end cabinet than K-M. For granite, the number included installation (for that only) - you may be finding it grouped into another category. The Dacor is a fine range. Re-using appliances will help (obviously).PS - Seeing that it's a D-B firm, I left out design fees. Take the (corrected) numbers per your comment and add at least 7-10% (wild guess) maybe more. Add permits too - here they would be at least $500-750.Good luck!Jeff
*I second the nomination of full extension drawer slides. I don't understand why they even make 3/4 extension. Anyone who builds cabinets with 3/4 extension slides as their regular method should be sent to the Russian Front. We're talkin' what, 5.00/drawer difference in price for the hardware? Times, say 15-20 drawers per kitchen? No brainer.
*Tessa,Thank you for your response and for avoiding the temptation to rip into me :-) You are, of course correct that it's no one else's bidness how you spend your money. I wouldn't dream of openly criticizing someone for wanting a 5ct.diamond earrings, either, but if they were openly wondering how they were going to afford it, that certainly would color my opinion of their financial choices.I understand the idea of kitchen as a living room worthy of great attention to design and perhaps a bit of aesthetic attention beyond the purely functional - that's not how I work (I do most of the cooking in my family and I generally prefer that everyone else get the hell out of my way :-) - but I understand the concept. But when the furniture stores are full of good $1,000 couches, I can't help but shake my head at the idea of a $10,000 couch. I don't think I would feel comfortable sitting on it. I'm no great chef, but I can't think of anything you would ever cook in your every day life (not your party hostess dreams) that can't be done on a $700 range. But, as you said, it is your choice. You will wind up with a very nice looking kitchen that, I hope, performs well. If you are comfortably certain that it will give you more enjoyment than the payments on it will cause you pain, then more power to you.I'll bet you'll be able to whip up one hell of a batch of macaroni and cheese :-)-Randy
*"I'll bet you'll be able to whip up one hell of a batch of macaroni and cheese"A 6 year old cook can do that on a campfire........ Randy, best of luck to you. Hope you don't ever require a tooth pulled.Tessa,Like Jim and Jeff, full extention, good decision. Upgrades are rarely regretted. Hope you meetings provide some answers and added trust.
*Jeff,Since I know little about toilets, I can't argue with someone who does. All I know is that for the decade I owned that house, the thing worked flawlessly. I love FHB magazine for many reasons - mostly as an antidote for all the reasons I hate suburban McMansions. But there is a tendance there (and here) to spending, seemingly without second thought, 500% more for a product that is perhaps 50% better quality - as if that were the definition of fine homebuilding. IMO, the most important aspect of any home is that someone NOT in the top 10% of income can afford it. To me, there is nothing at all impressive about a home that costs a fortune. What is impressive is a home that is solid, smartly designed, warm and inviting, and a real alternative to suburbann tract development garbage.-Randy
*I'm not sure where this fits in Jeff, nor even if it's useful to Tessa, but I'll estimate a job for someone- a custom one-off bed for example, or a custom one-off cabinet, let's say in both cases, $6,000, delivered, and once in a while there is a catching of the breathe, and a pause. This might be followed by, "I can get i that at the local furniture place for 1/6 of the price you're quoting." My response has been known to be, "Actually, you can get a i bed (or cabinet) for about a thirtieth or less of what I'm charging at i that place, but you can't get one of mine there."Reinforcing the points mentioned about drawer slides, and the minimal savings garnered through using the cheaper white epoxied 3/4 extension types versus a full extension Accuride, for instance. In my case a client might asks what the savings would be in using a cheaper timber than say cherry in the above furniture examples. If I give an extreme example, poplar instead of cherry, I might only charge $5,850 for the job. Materials are generally a quite small part of my charges. Slainte, RJ.
*Mark,If I needed some work done at the dentist and had two choices (and no dental insurance);1) having a copetantly trained, competantly performing dentist perform what is consider standard practice technique of the day for $1,000, or...2) having a nationally renoun dentist perform a state of the art proceedure for $10,000,I'll choose #1. Perhaps that doesn't fit the mind set here, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong...or tasteless.-Randy
*Sorry Randy, it was a joke I had hoped didn't require an explaination.But.......Unlike you, Tessa is not a DIYer. And unlike you, I'm a professional. Tessa, the Owner, asked for verification of labor costs on her design/build kitchen remodel. She never said she couldn't afford it. Both professional and owners have responded with suggestions and pointed examples of their experiences in an attempt to help our new friend Tessa.You, on the other hand, have attempted, for reasons I can only assume to be ego based, to inform us all what a wonderful guy you are for running a project yourself, (at what real cost, both in terms of money and stress) saving money by purchasing $100 crappers and informing us as to what you find impressive.Go start your own thread.Title it, The world according to Randy.
*Kraft Maid and a 90K in a 200SF space? Minor structural changes? Is there anyone here honestly that thinks either 1) we aren't seeing the whole story here OR 2) she is getting really screwed? What makes this area so expensive? Do they have to helicopter supplies in? Are permits 50K? Do carpenters make $200/hr.? What? Kraft Maid are the low end of what any of us would consider high quality cabinets right? The low end of better cabinets. Something smells.
*Keith,I think the dynamic here is that any time cost isn't clear from the start (like a price tag at the store) it will always wind up being every penny the customer is willing to pay. Mark,The "IMO" you sometimes see on these posts means "in my opinion" - which, I think is still allowed here. Before my current career as a stay home dad to my two (soon to be three) daughters and home equity builder, I was, I guess you could call, a "professional" musician. I knew quite a few non-professional musicians, some of whom could blow me away. It never occured to me to judge someone's ability on whether or not they earned their income doing what they do. There are some aspects of each trade best left to so-called "professionals", but most of it, I'm sure even you can admit, ain't exactly rocket science.-Randy
*Tessa,I sense the need at this point to offer an apology to you, not so much for the content of my posts to you - which I had intended to be simply honest, although perhaps pointed, and with a bit of humor - but for contributing to the pulling of this thread somewhat off-topic.Perhapas, as Mark suggested, I should just start my own thread - although I'll think of another title - that focuses on the philosophical issues involved here that are hot button issues for me. Certainly, my concerns have nothing to do with you personally, or anything necessarily having to do with Kitchens.Good luck to you.-Randy
*Randy, Randy, Randy...you are dead wrong about "I sense the need at this point to offer an apology to you...for contributing to the pulling of this thread somewhat off-topic."No apology necessary, man. First off, your posts were on subject, from a differing perspective. What's wrong with that? And more importantly, we THRIVE on pulling threads off topic. We've raised it to an art form. Geez, that's the best part.
*Randy, don't worry, no apologies necessary. I responded to your second post in email to you since I felt it somewhat more appropriate (but not because I wanted to yell at you or anything!), but the email bounced and I didn't have time to troubleshoot. And these threads always go all over the place no matter what. Like Jim says, that's the fun of it! :)
*Tessa, We did a complete kitchen remodel 6-7 yrs ago in Los Angeles, 230 SF,(10x23) as follows:1. We did the design, building a 1" to the foot plywood and masonite model. It went thru 5 or 6 renditions, moving doors, windows, appliances, etc around till we liked it. We used scale models (wood or taped cardboard) of appliances and cabinets to check clearances, ergonomics, etc.2. We bought the appliances from Lincoln appliances for $5002 (we haggled a lot but couldn't get the last $2 off) and they agreed to warehouse them and deliver as needed. Amana 27 or 31 (can't recall)cu ft side by side refrigerator/freezer, 4 burner gas cooktop, microwavehood combination, Whirlpool dishwasher, G&S double oven, SS double sink with Insinkerator disposal and a water filter and soap dispenser, and a washer and gas dryer for the laundry and a handful of connectors and little stuff I can"t recall.3. Bought the window (36x60,2 casement openings, fixed center panel, argon filled thermopane, all vinyl) direct from Milgard for $600.4.The contactor framed, subfloored, and put in water and electric and drywall and recessed lighting and undercounter lighting (we specified the lighting but he supplied it) and pulled permits, around 10-15k including callbacks for installing the appliances( hard to say exactly because we were having other stuff done).5.Cabinets were intentionally cheap, white vinyl over 3/4" particle board for stability and ease of cleaning, abt 10' of uppers @34" and 15 ft of lowers @36" and a 66"x96" pantry, same vinyl etc. Kitchen Connection charged 10k (building to our design, we gave them rough drawings and they submitted computer drawings for our approval) including finishing the insides of the cabinets and drawers and installing the countertops, which we bought separately from a granite company, thru the tile man. Countertops cut to size, bullnosed and polished were $2k. The granite wasn't the cheapest, but it wasn't the blue stuff from Algeria either, at ten times the price.6. I built the entry door, and cased it,the window, the 3'x4' pass through and 32"x80" walk through to the dining room, and the floor molding from honduras mahogany at a material cost of about $400-500.7. Tile for the floor was about $1500, 6x6 white tiles with a 4" mosaic of red,yellow and blue banding a few inches in from the walls, running around the room.Another $1500-2000 for installation, including his supervision of the cabinet people installing the countertops and him putting in the 4" granite backsplashes.8. Add a few grand for incidentals, and we're talking about $40k, maybe $45k. It was not done start to finish in 6 weeks, though. A restaurant chef friend of ours saw the finished product and commented "I could cook for 100 people in here."Considering that you're getting a professional design, 6 week service and possibly better stuff, and it's a turnkey operation, and you don't have to do any of the installation, you're not doing too badly at $90k considering prices at present.
*I've never seen a thread this long bring out so many diverse opinions without becoming a spitball contest. Must be an omen of blessings for Theresa!
*Must admit I would expect Woodmode at least in this kind of priceing.
*Tessa,I share your pain as I too am in the process of a kitchen remodel. Some thoughts and background:I am a software consultant by trade (self employed) but am fairly handy so much of my process will be done by me and the rest sub-contracted (as I am used to doing this in my job).Many of the replies are right on the money as you have responded. You are also correct/normal in feeling a bit uneasy considering you will be shelling out 80-90 large. I agree with everyone who stated having a face to face meeting. I have not yet started that part of the process but in previous dealing with contractors I can say "go with your gut feeling" and MAKE SURE you state your requirements up front. I'm anal retentive (both the wife and friends vouch for this) but I tell the contractors up front how I want the final product to look etc. Be prepared to weed out people but in the end also be prepared to spend a little more than average for the person/firm that pays attention to details. Details take time and time is money.As for your choices being high-end, as you stated that is a personal choice. I'm opting for a Jenn Air cooktop because I get 90% of what I wanted at about 50% of the cost. Due to size limitations I can only squeeze a 30" cooktop which has 15, 10, 9 and 6K burners. Granted I'd prefer switching the 10 and 9 to 12 and 10 respectively but that is not currently an option. Other makes have all 15K but their ability to simmer is greatly limited. I figured one burner strategic ally located to sear and wok cook is better than not having one burner that can hold a more delicate sauce. Take a look at Jenn Air as they are professional looking and have pretty much everything you need (P.S. I used to cook so I do understand restaurant quality).To your bottom line question, what does it cost. Most items can be figured out. For example in my area (Chicago) wood flooring is about 9-11 per square foot installed. I'm assuming you can come up with all the other figures on your own with a little digging.However, there's the difference. I'm doing some stuff myself and GCing the other. I'll be trading money for time. The 6 week estimate you got was pretty good for what you are having done (time only as I don't know your labor cost). As someone else stated and you agreed, you'll be happy with pretty much all the upgrades and penalized (labor wise for sure) with lower grade substitutions. If cash is an obstacle, possible you could phase in the project. However, with home equity loans rates what they are now, I'd personally bite the bullet and get what you want! You said you have seen this company's work and are happy/impressed. If so, meet them face to face, give them a bottom line, and work together eliminating/postponing items. I've never really been able to get contractors to break down the bid to T&M. I think they feel like we are prying. What I do is figure out all the materials at my price (any lower price on their part is due to repeat/frequent/volume buying and should be fairly their profit). The remaining amount is labor. Divide by # of people etc. to get a ballpark figure. Getting a foreman is a huge bonus but obviously you'll be paying for this. Again 6 weeks to new kitchen plays a part in the overall bid.As an aside I recently redid the dining room and subbed out the painting. The bid was high but the firm was a repeat for me. With all the molding I added (triple crown, chair, base, window/door and picture frames) it took 3 painters 2 days to complete. 6 painter man days. How many software consultant weekends would that have amounted too???Again, get the warm and fuzzy, state your requirements firmly, agree on a firm price and get a start date and espected time to completion. Have a GOOD backup kitchen as with all projects something will come up and elongate the process. NEVER tie a big party to the project completion end date. You'll just end up frustrated and making a lot of unnecessary phone calls. Enjoy the new kitchen, I can't wait for mine (6-12 months).
*Just thought I'd give everybody an update. Most of you advised us to talk to the design/build firm we were working with and we took that advice. I'm happy to report that we worked everything out and signed the contract this morning! Construction is to start late January.While we certainly would have liked to not have had any budget concerns at all, it is kind of nice to run into a problem before construction starts, so you can see how it gets resolved (I think Jim Blodget pointed this out too). We are confident that no further 'issues' will come up, but if they do that we can all work it out in a way that's acceptable to everybody.Thanks again everybody!Tessa
*
We are in the design fase of a complete kitchen remodel with a design-build firm. We really like their design and the interaction so far has been good, but the total price tag is higher than we had hoped. This in and of itself is not the issue, the issue is that we don't know if the labor rates they charge are fair for this area (Northern Virginia, which I think is one of the most expensive in the nation after San Francisco and NYC).
Do you have any tips on how to find out if their rates are reasonable. We want to pay the going labor rate and we want them to make a profit, but right now we have no idea if we are being treated fairly in this respect.
The remodel entails gutting the kitchen, replacing one bank of windows with slightly bigger ones and opening up a non-load bearing wall to the living room. The 'allotment' for cabinets, appliances, countertop etc comes in at 29k (no tax) based on our selections (some of which are expensive). They say it's a 6 week project and will have a project leader on site every day in addition to the rest of the workmen. Any thoughts on how much the total cost (no tax) for this project should be?
Any insight (even if it's just to tell me you can't compare these things) is appreciated. We have not been able to find any cost comparisons anywhere and short of asking another company to go through the process (which we don't want to do since it would be a waste of their time if we went with company #1 after all), I don't know how to get the info I need.