I started a modest sized remodel last week, a new kitchen. Started out fairly basic but snowballed rather quickly.
During the demo stages alot of things that we uncovered needed to be fixed. Understructured framing, and faulty wiring being the biggest culprits.
I was going to just replace the ceiling joists they were spliced many times and sagged inches because of that, so I installed a ridge beam to give us all the time in the world to reframe the joists and the sky light hole.
I decided on a pair of Southern Yellow Pine 2×12’s for the 8′ span. After we had that installed the HO asks me if we can make it a cathedral ceiling and keep the skylight. I gave her the thumbs up after discussing the finances.
I had to order a different framing package now. No big deal the rafters were undersized anyway. I chose 2×10’s for rafters, those were the biggest I could use and not interfere with the new upper cabinets that are already being made.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
Replies
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THis is the rafter seat cut layout I decided on, I only have 2-1/2" HAP and I couldn't have a mile of seat cut hanging out into the room. THat would have resulted in a huge failure.
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I will put a cripple stud in the wall under the bottom of each rafter, giving it full bearing, and a good amount of area for insulation.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
After I had figured out my seat, pitch and length of my rafters I cut it. One at a time on this job, way too far out of whack to gang cut these.
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I only got one in by the time I had to leave for the Michigan game, Monday the rest will go up.
The test fit went rather well, I gave it a thumbs up and packed up for the day.
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Thanks Tim Uhler, Joe Carolla, and others for posting your framing knowledge here. I have been able to figure my rafters from the ground with my calculator since I have been reading your guys' posts. Making my life alot easier. The numbers never lie.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
These are a few of the electircal hazards I found in the demo stages, these two pictures are of boxes that were drywalled over. No cover plates, even then they still would have been against code.
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I also pulled out a junction box in the attic that was sparking a few feet from me. No cover plate and blown full of cellulose insulation. I killed the breaker and called in my electrician a few days early to get rid of the existing wiring in the kitchen. He'll start over with all new making everyone involved sleep better at night.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
Hey, nice thread - keep it going!
Forrest
I used a similar rafter seat cut a couple of years ago on a new house with a cathedral ceiling in the kitchen and living room. The inspector didn't like it. He gave me an explantion which I did not agree with, but, not wanting to fight city hall, I agreed to put a simpson connector under each rafter so they would not eventually split. I was using 2X10s in the cathedral portion to allow a generous air flow above the insulation.
If I had used 2X8s, the bottom of the 2X8 would have come out just where the bottom of my seat slot was on the 2X10s. The inspector felt that only the outer two inches on the lumber was graded, so if I made a cut inside of that zone, it would invalidate the lumber grade.
>>I agreed to put a simpson connector under each rafter so they would not eventually split. <<
I am going to put a cripple stud underneath the bottom of the rafter in the wall. Fortunately the framing is stacked where there is a rafter there is a stud underneath. I will sister my cripple to the existing stud and nail my new rafter to the existing rafter and stud.
You can see in a few of my pictures I wrote stud underneath where I cut the plate out of the rafter. Thats how I showed my guys what I had going on.
I really don't forsee an issue with the inspector. If I cut a full birdsmouth then I run a big risk of a failure.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
Matt, got your email-when I responded I got the undeliverable bounce back from Postmaster @tds. You getting my emails?-=you must be getting some I'm thinking.
thanksA great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I have been getting your emails maybe 6 or so now. I hardly check my inbox so I apologize for the late replys.
Breaktime soaks up most of my computer time.
Let me know if she can't find someone she feels comfortable with, I may be able to make time in the schedule after the first of the year.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
Thanks,
I've been getting the same returned mail as undeliverable from your mail provider. Evidently it gets through-might want to check with them to see whats up.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I'll check into it.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
I thought about your post more than once today. What connector did they require you to use?
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
Update time.
Front door view. Frig and face panels are done. Granite tops are done we are just waiting on a few backsplashes.
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Sink and faucet up and running. Sink is made out of 80% granite. Very nice looking.
View ImageWoods favorite carpenter
More pictures
Island, we are still waiting on a upper cabinet that got shipped to us wrong, it goes in the upper right corner of the picture.
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THis is the book case that I just finished, the half walls are surrounding a spiral stair case.
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This is the lake side of the island.
I have a few columns to make that cover the ends of the walls on the side of the microwave and on the opposing side of the opening. I need to make the cherry duct cover as well over the top of the microwave.
View ImageWoods favorite carpenter
very nice...
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need some finish pics too....
do you have a tripod for your camera ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for the kind words Mike.
I'll keep updating the pictures as I get closer to done. I made two cherry tops today for the half walls surrounding the stairs, those get sent to the spray booth Monday.
I don't have a tripod yet. Probably should get one. It could be used for pictures and my PLS lasers until I get a Laserjamb.
Woods favorite carpenter
Very nice stuff Matt.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Thanks DT. Woods favorite carpenter
Updated pictures.. EZ day today. Finishing the millwork today with the EZ system. Matching fluted pillars, cutting finished panels.
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This is my duplicator setup. I had to match the fluted pillars that the factory sent us. The HO liked the pattern just not the boards they sent us. Plus they had to be wider than 6", had to be 8" to cover the ends of the walls.
I set up the EZ n the middle the factory board on the right and the rough stock on the left. I would do one flute then turn the EZ to the pattern and setup for the next flute on the left side.
So I made them starting with a few rough sawn cherry boards that I planed down in the shop, to routing them on the job.
Woods favorite carpenter
Edited 1/25/2008 4:30 pm ET by MattSwanger
More milling pictures.
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This is a side by side comparison of the pattern factory board on the left and the EZ board on the right.
Notice the chatter marks in the factory board? At almost $300 a board this was unacceptable to the HO, they wanted me to make them, and make them better. THe results speak for themselves. No chatter marks on mine.
Woods favorite carpenter
Then I had to make some furniture base for a valance over the sink, again the HO didn't want to pay $200 so I did it for a little less. But not much, every dollar is counting to them now.
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I set the EZ up and made 3 passes for the finished profile, no burns, no chatters. Great tool to have on site.
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In the natural day light I noticed these marks, must have been left by my bench top Dewalt planer. Time to break out the scrapers and sanders.
I start with 150 grit mounted on my jitterbug sander.
Then ran my cabinet scraper down the board a few times.
Next for the final sanding, it's the 5" PC Ro sander with 180 grit.
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The finished board ready for varnish. Woods favorite carpenter
I Hd to make a few finshed panels for the back of the book case, it would have been alot easier to install first but the HO didn't like the looks of it with out a back panel.
So I made a template with rips of 2x stock and a hot glue gun.
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Marked out the corners of the template and cut it out with the EZ system and new Makita 5008MG saw. Pretty nice for a side winder.
The fit was perfect and then the painter showed up. We loaded his van and hopefully we'll see all the pieces by the middle of next week. Woods favorite carpenter
Heres a semi finished picture of the hutch wall, all thats left is a few pieces of glass for the cabinet doors and the undercabinet lighting. Sparkys in Florida til February 1 so that might have to wait for his return.
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Heres a photo of the stairwell cabinet tops. I made the tops out of one solid piece of 3/4" cherry veneer plywood to avoid a seem.
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Woods favorite carpenter
This is the book case that they wanted a back panel and top put on. Can't say I diagree with them at all.
The top will have a can light installed in it.
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You got talent to burn Matt! And to think, you started as a framer.
You need to quit smarting off about those sidewinders though.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
>>And to think, you started as a framer.<<
I started framing with the family early on. After school was with a remodeling company. We did everything there. That lasted a few years and I learned alot.
Then I got a call from a GC who heard I was framing without the family now. He wanted the family, but most had retired or moved away. So he got me. That lasted a few years and now back into remodeling.
It's a cycle, my real love is framing, but I'll do what I want in the mean time.
I like the hard mental and physical work in framing, get a system down and things happen without a word being spoke.
Remodeling is tough on the head, lots of headaches but I have good customers and that is what makes it all worth while.
You should look at that 8-1/4" Makita, it is a very nice saw.
Woods favorite carpenter
Nice Job Matt.
Dino will be proud of you and your guys.
One board for $300.00 and shattered?
Thanks for the pictures anf tutorial.
david
$300 for one board that had terrible chatter marks. Unacceptable at that price.
So the HO asked if I could make them better, when i showed them the reuslts they had no issues sending back the factorys boards and keeping mine.
The setup for duplicating the pattern I take credit for, Dino gets the rest. His system made my work what it turned out to be. Woods favorite carpenter
<You should look at that 8-1/4" Makita, it is a very nice saw.>
I bought its little brother, the 7 1/4", about 2 months ago. Feels a little "clunky" after slinging the lighter 5007NB's for all those years. I really like it as a bench saw.
I think everybody should cut their teeth as a framer. It gives good background and insight into the other trades. It was amazing what I could learn from the turd herders and sparkies when I should have been cutting rafters <g>.
I'm in remodeling now for keeps. Body's getting too worn out to keep up anymore. I'm ready to trade the bull-work for the brain-work.
Oops, somebody will be along shortly to chastize me for implying that any dummy can frame. Blah, Blah, Blah. I'm too tired to argue tonight.
Have a great weekend Matt.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
I learned alot framing, and that has carried over into my remodeling now.
Planes, angles, compound cuts, basic geometry that can be applied to rafters and crwon molding.
Thats the beauty of it, people who frame get a bad rap. When they really understand the math behind the methods they can be as sharp as anyone on site.
I know what you mean by bull work. Humping 50 sheets of OSB through a foot of mud can be a killer even for me and I am youger than you.
You have a good weekend to David. Woods favorite carpenter
I had to drop off a few invoices today and I figured I'd stop by the spray booth to see how the finish of the millwork was going.
Jimmy picked up all the pieces Friday, and I should have them back onsite Tuesday morning.
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This is the vent pipe cover and the back panel for the book case. Still wet, the finish is a semi gloss and won't dry so bright.
The rest of the pictures didn't turn out, got the shakes today.
Woods favorite carpenter
<The rest of the pictures didn't turn out, got the shakes today.>
Time to back off the Red Bulls <g>.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Might not be a bad idea, that and the Mountain Dew.
I might have to check into rehab for the Moutain Dew. Woods favorite carpenter
I've heard people call that stuff "liquid crack".The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Not knowing what crack is like, it won't be easy for me if I try to quit.
MD and my smokes are the last two vices I have. Everything else was easy to quit. THese seem impossible. Woods favorite carpenter
Coffee and Kools--killing me slowly.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
at least it's not crack.
Thats what I tell someone when they comment on the amount of MD I have a habit of drinking.
Look back and see how many pictures you see with an 8 pack in it, or at least a can. I noticed it today. Woods favorite carpenter
I'm not following that outer two inches theory. It's something I've never heard before.I do agree with the split out theory. I always configure the cuts in a way to get full bearing to prevent split out or uses a simpson to support the part of the rafter that could split out. I think Tim is going to deal with this issue by putting a cripple stud under each rafter. That's why he left the meat under the plate...I think.Tim, you have draftstopping issues at that point. How do you plan on stopping the air flow from wall to ceiling and vice versa? FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
I have the fire stop issue covered. This has come up in situations with attic trusses.
I plan on bending up a piece of metal at a 90 degree angle. Staple it to the wall and to the bottom of the rafter. I will bend "ears" that I can staple it to the sides of the studs.
I do plan on putting a cripple under the meat of the rafter. THats why I left it there, in this example I only have 2-1/2" of rafter above the plate. Nowhere near the depth needed for insulation. We need R-38 as a minimum.
This is as close as I can get without sandwiching the backsplash. I plan on blowing the ceiling full of cellulose.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
On situations like that, I've done the draftstopping many ways. On that one, I'd probably opt to run a 2x4 or 2x6 first, then run a plumb cut with a flat spot. I'd then run a small hanger. I prefer the full length 2x nailed at the bottom plane of the ceiling because it give the drywallers a solid member where they always know they will hit something when they nail. It's fast and I don't like fiddling with small blocks if I can help it. I wouldn't like fiddling with bent metal either. I might consider adding a 14.5" block as a plate, then the cripple stud. I've done that quite often. I've firestopped with drywall, plywood, rockwool....almost anything. Maybe even some bent metal but I don't remember that. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
My inspector suggested metal on a few of the frames I did before, he would okay 2x blocking in a non load bearing situation. So I'll go with what I know he will okay. Although it's not really a full load bearing situation. Ahh choices ya gotta love them. Because the metal presents another issue of wiring.
I've removed alot of wall space in this little room and sparky is going to have to get up and down that wall for his GFI's. With the metal he'd have to put those plastic grommets in. I think I'll roll the dice with the wood blocking.
I tossed the idea around a little, nailing a ledger to the wall then setting the rafters to it and hanging them. I still might. I only have one side partially done at the end of today. I have to hanger a few of them anyway because of a window header that is in that bearing wall.
In a case like this I usually don't worry about backing drywall, I'll hit the rafters with screws and the wall sheetrock keeps it from going anywhere.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
He claimed that only the outer two inches, that is the top two inches and the bottom two inches are "tested" in grading of lumber. I had not heard that, although I understand where the idea is coming from. This is related to the reason why some LVLs have a stronger strip on the top and bottom edges.
Essentially, when, say, a floor joist is in place, the force that pushes down on the joist causes tension on the lower half of the joist and compression on the upper half. The center is primarily a place where the upper and lower working zones are connected. This is why you can drill holes near the center, but not at the edges.
I'm no expert on how they grade, but his explanation sounds like his personal theory. In any event, there is a splitting issue when you make those notches as opposed to making a full level cut. I don't like either and I always find a way to positively support the bottom side of any horizontal structural member. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
This is where we left off yesterday. All the beams installed with hangers. Ready to tear out the last of the bearing walls today.
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I got a few rafters nailed in, then trimmed the skylight hole back so I wasn't working around it.
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This is the last time the HO's will see the lake like this.
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The new view from the kitchen. Hard to believe that removing 4 ft of wall and a header would make that much difference.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
This is my skylight scribe. With the rafters nailed in I can slide this around the skylight against the bottom of the rafters. Then make the cuts. Cheap but effective.
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Firewall finished up in this photo. And a small flat at the peak for a ceiling fan.
We finished most of the framing today, tommorrow we can finish up with this phase. Alot of half walls to be built yet.
I got alot of the blocking in for lower cabinets, the old wood sheathing was pulling away from the studs. I would have liked to renailed it but the house was just resided with Fiber Cement. So I spray foam between the studs and the sheathing to fill any voids and it's as good as I can get it without flattening the house.
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Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
And the walking out the door picture. I decided to use wood fire blocking. After the conversation I had with Jim last night. The metal would have worked just as good but I don't think sparky would have liked it.
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Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
Moving right along. What time frame did you give the HO for completion?jt8
"The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese." --Dave Barry
I gave them a time frame of about 3 weeks from today. That gives the subs enough time to finish their job. I finished the rough framing today.
Electrician starts tommorrow, I'll insulate maybe Saturday or Monday then the plasterers come in. After they are done paint, then the hardwood flooring guys take over. They will lay it in a day or so, then they have to sand and finish it.
Once the floors are done I can start installing cabinets and trim.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
I told the HO's that the existing floor was way out of whack, 8' span and almost an 1-1/2" sag in the middle. Someone tried to level the floor before they laid tile and poured concrete floor leveler in to smooth it out. I never understood that theory, lumber is sagging and using concrete to fix the sag?
THe HO hired the floor guy and he is jacking my schedule up bad, he tells me that he'll nail through the concrete. HO didn't want to try to fix the floor until the floor guy was wrong.
So yesterday I pull off my other remodel and head out to fix this one.
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Two layers of 1x flooring, 1-1/2" of floor patch all on this floor. Hard to beleive I could fill a 20 yd dumpster with a 8x14 kitchen already.
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I gang cut the joists and put Ronnie and Junior in the hole. Here they running stringlines from room to room for the top of their joists. I didn't bother pulling out a level just worried about making it true and in plane.
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Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
14 hours later we end up with a flat and true floor, 3/4" plywood glued and screwed to the joists.
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Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
Here is what the ceiling looks like after the plasterers finished
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I had the electrician install the cans that follow the ceiling pitch
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In the background you can see a large oak tree, the deck is built around it. Pretty cool looking.
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Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
I also took the time to screw off the other flooring that will be covered by the new Hickory flooring. 2 quik drives and an hour later all of it is crewed to the joists.
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Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
Things are up and running here again, my schedule got thrown out because of the hardwood flooring guy that the HO hired before I knew about it. Then the painter took his time too.
So I am hoping for christmas.
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We took a delivery of a huge number of cabinets, filled up the entire living room.
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We setup up the PLS 180 and got to work, this laser is GREAT. set the bases to the laser and go like no other.
Woods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
THis is the sink and dishwasher station. These bases also wrap around the walls on both sides. View Image
This is the hutch area behind the island. View ImageWoods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
This is the lakeside of the island. View Image
Another PLS180 picture, with all the wrap arounds on the bases this laser made them very quick to get level. I can't say enough good things about this laser. I really could have used the Laserjamb setup with it. View Image
Monday I'll finish up the book cabinet hopefully. Then move onto some more of the uppers.
I am waiting on most of the uppers because their is going to be a granite backsplash and I'll set the uppers on that. Woods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
"The numbers never lie. "aaahhhahahahahahahahaha.Oh? You were serious? FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
I was serious, Since I have been using my calculator to figure most of my rafters the times I had trouble was when something I did wasn't plumb or level. And those ended up being a couple minute fix.
All I do is figure my run and rise, punch those into my CM and it gives me the degrees, and the diagonal measurement from plate to ridge. For me it's much faster than the other ways I was shown to do them.
Snapping them out or stepping them off takes alot more time for me, what is your preferred method? I know production is a trademark of yours so fill me in. I am all for learning something new.
I am challenging you, just curious on how you approach rafters.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
I calculate all rafters from the inside of the ridge to the outside of the fascia. I then use a template to mark the seat cut if there is one. Usually there isn't one and I have to slip in a heel support that I nail in and scab a gusset to.A lot of times when we are ballooning a gable wall, I snap out the outline and run the studs full length to the line. I nail the bottoms, lay the studs loose on 16" oc, then nail a rafter on the OUTSIDE of the frame. This rafter serves two purposes: it holds the studs on layout and it serves as the backer for the soffit. It acts like a top plate but really is a "side" plate.Using that method, I can frame up a ballooned gable in five minutes, not counting any header work. Snapping the shape of the gable isn't really a complicated deal. I vary in that method depending on the situation. It would not be unheard of me to put a nail at the top of the heel, then swing an arc using the full length of the rafter. At the point they intersect, that is the theoretical tip of the ridge. I lauged about the numbers don't lie because you obviously haven't encountered any of those mysteries where it should work, and when you recalculate it, it still should work...but it doesn't. I call it the mystery of carpentry, I laugh and just move on.
FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Blue,
I know what you are saying about the numbers never lie. They don't, math is perfect, BUT there are so many variables that sometimes it seems like it is lying.
Nice work man. Glad you started using the CM eh? Once you start trusting the math, framing gets easier everywhere.
I think I may start a photo thread at JLC with the next frame we start tomorrow. This thing is 99'10 15/16" from the outside tip to tip. Going to be a fun one.
I am using the CM thanks to you and a few others over to JLC and here. I was never shown how to mathmatically figure rafters. My grandfather showed me how to snap out views on the floor then cut to those. Very time consuming.
Then after I got the basic concepts of that he showed me how to step them off with a framing square. ANd that was how I did it for a few years.
Then I run across you guys and the lights are turned on, I wanted to start learning again. And I will in the future. Keep posting.
I will be watching for the thread over to JLC. Sounds like aot of fun.
I PM'D you over to JLC yeasterday thanks for the reply. (Stretch)
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
Keep the pics coming.
jt8
"Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success." --Albert Schweitzer
I finished cutting the common rafters this morning fairly quick. I had the guys finishing some more demo.
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Then we went on to installing the last few beams. After the beam was installed we removed the load bearing wall that was there.
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Then we moved on to the last beam, first the rafters and ceiling joists were cut plumb from the inside of the plate. Then the double hangers were pushed in.
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I forgot the end of the day picture but I will get one in the morning. We will drop the last few walls in the area to open the kitchen up to the lake. I think I am just as excited as the HO to see the new view.
For this job just starting out as cabinets and ceiling joists it has become alot bigger. And alot more fun.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
Edited 11/5/2007 7:19 pm ET by Stilletto
Keep those pics coming :-).
So how many guys you got working for/with you? How's the market around where you are. Slowed way down here. We've got this custom we started today, and not much lined up after this. If we could just sell the one house, we'd start another one. We may get another custom, who knows.
We are heading into that time of year when no one is really buying here. Good thing this house will take us awhile.
I have one full time guy and usually one part time working with me.
The new part time guy does alot of the demo and is really happy doing it. He is transplant from Milwaukee. Not knowing alot but really wants to learn, and my biggest thing he shows up everytime on time.
New construction fell off the table maybe a year ago and hasn't recovered. The few that are being framed are being done by the cutthroats. One job a guy took from me for under $3 a sq ft, he buys the nails and all hardware. Nuts man, I have no idea how he is going to pull it off. Probably won't. That was half my bid, and I wasn't going to buy the nails either.
A new casino is being built about 15 miles from the house and I hope that will get things up and running again. I need to get back framing full time. I'll do what ever in the mean time but my heart is in making a pile of lumber into a home.
I have been remodeling in the meantime. I have a booked schedule to at least the first of the year but after that who knows.
My buddy that I have known for 20 years just moved to your basic area. Said there is new frames going up everywhere. He started out at $32 an hour not knowing much, just answering what basic wall parts were. Corners, double top plate, etc. I was going to check it out this winter if I slowed down. Paullopy I think is the name of the town, I am sure the spelling is off.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
Edited 11/5/2007 7:43 pm ET by Stilletto
Puyallup? Maybe? pronounced pew-allup.
I didn't know there was a lot of framing going on there. The market overall in the Seattle area has been pretty steady. We are slow here, but that shouldn't be for long. There was a new bridge finished this past July that makes it easy to commute off the penninsula where we are, Kitsap.
Market will come back though.
Matt:
This is a good thread. Could you show a few pics zoomed out. I'm missing exactly what you're doing on those pushed in hangers. Thanks man.
Mike
I will get better pictures tommorrow, THe pictures of the hangers was just before we installed a 2 ply 11-7/8" LVL header.
I slid the hangers in first so I didn't have to cut more sheetrock out to get them in. I have already filled a 20 yard dumpster from what has come out of the old 8x14 kitchen.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
After three days we have almost all the lowers and some of the uppers set.
Granite was templated Thursday and will be installed Friday of this coming week. Hopefully.......
Heres some of the kitchens pictures. It really closed in much more than I thought it would, but none the less it still looks great.
Pantry, Refigerator, microwave station. This wraps around the corner. To a single base and upper cabinet. View Image
This is the island with the stove and downdraft. View Image
Woods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
I've done them all ways Stilletto and I still snap out views quite often in some circumstances. Snapping them out full scale is sometimes the fastest way. It helps to know how to do the math though even when you are snapping to scale. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)