Hi All
I am installing a roof with open rafters on the gable ends supported by 4×4 knee braces. Any advice on how to set them?
The roofing ply is CDX that will be exposed under the rafter.
HC
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
From durability to energy efficiency, continuous exterior insulation is an accessbile approach to a high-performance wall.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
Not sure what they`re called....terminology was never my strong point.....but if you let in some "strong backs" (my term, for lack of better) bracing every four to six feet , the knee braces will be more ornamental than structural.
I`d run my corner boards, assuming you`ll have them, prior to the braces. Prefab the braces on the ground, paint them up and install them into the seat cut on the rafter and apply them to the corner boards.
Attached is a quick sketch to help clear what I`m trying to say.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
View Image
Hey....yer gettin` good at this.....thanks!
P.S. What are they payin` ya?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Edited 1/3/2005 1:13 pm ET by JAYBIRD
Got a hat.
Maybe one day I'll leave Hackerhood and enter Apprenticeville.
My local codes do not permit cutting into the top chord. How would you do this if it was a 2x4 top chord?
use a drop chord truss..IOW the top chord is 1.5" lower.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I'll just do it>
Thanks
This has given me some good ideas. I am using trusses for all but the gable end so I will have to let in a strongback on the gable end wall then end nail it to the 1st truss. This will help.
Any other ideas are appreciated.
HC
When we order a dropped gable truss it is 3 1/2" lower than the others. That allows the gable overhang supporting 2x4's to be on edge rather than flat. Much better for reducing sag. Then the blocking goes between. If we frame conventionally, then the let-in is usually only 1 1/2", on the flat.
Interesting. Back when I was framing we never actually used drop downs, we always notched the top chord. It was OK then in Pa.I haven't really been doing much framing, except ocaisonal additions, in a decade or so. I miss seeing an empty deck to a "walls up" in one day..that was enjoyable.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I'll just do it>
>> Not sure what they`re called....terminology was never my strong point.....but if you let in some "strong backs" (my term, for lack of better) bracing every four to six feet , the knee braces will be more ornamental than structural. <<
We call 'em outlooks our lookouts. See attached pic of a trussed roof built this way.
Around here, we don't let in the lookouts on trusses. Rather, as said above, and as shown in the pic, order the gable ends dropped. On stick framing, generally 2x8s, or min 2x6s are used for rafters, so there is enough wood there to let in the lookouts.
Matt
Edited 1/5/2005 9:34 pm ET by DIRISHINME
Dir...I'd like to know how much you guys get to frame a house like that.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
What do you mean? You think it is a PIA or what? I'm not a framer, but more of the guy who hires framers, and generally the price is no different. To answer your question, generally around $3.50 a sq foot. Matt
Dirsh, I'm just wondering to what extent that$3.50 per sq ft covers. Do they have to put up scaffolding and sheath the walls now or is that someone elses job?'
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
A lot of guys around here frame the house and then sheath it, especially if it is a 1 story on a flat lot like the one pictured. On a custom house, the lead carpenters might be doing the rafters while the newer guys put on the wall sheathing. These are most often crews with 10 or 12 guys. You don't see too much scaffolding in residential except for the brickies.
As far as $3.50 a sq ft - it varyes. It might be 3.50 per sq ft for heated areas, 3.00 for unheated areas (porches, etc) and then a few thrown in charges like chase: $100. A complex custom with bastard hips, etc, might be 4.50 or maybe even 5.
Matt
Edited 1/6/2005 5:01 pm ET by DIRISHINME
We deal with overhang brackets a lot here in the land of the bungalow.
These photos are not exactly what you're asking about, but the same principals apply. I use smaller versions of these same brackets quite often. Very simple joinery, a couple passes with a skillsaw set at 45 degrees. We usually lag bolt the vertical support to framing in the wall, sometimes throughbolt with washers and nuts.
This pair has wooden plugs covering countersunk heads of lags. I'll try to find some photos of others...I know I have a few in the computer somewhere with heads exposed. Just depends on the building, I really like exposed hardware and framing members, but some people don't, and I try to give the customer choices about that kind of thing.
Lots of times the vertical and diagonal supporting members are 2x, instead of 4x material...again, it depends on the building, and the scale of the brace.
hey Jim, what type of joint/connection do you do at the inside-top of the knee brace there ? Maybe a slight dado across the inside end of the top piece, lap it over the vert piece on the wall, and screwit?Nice looking braces. More pics of that finished roof ?
sorry Jim, 1st pic was of the finished roof. Tired tonite.
I like to lag down through the "beam", into the vertical member, Joe. Or at least use deck screws diagonally. If I think of it I throw my Kreg Jig in the truck in the morning and pockethole the back of the top of the verticle member and screw them together with deck screws.
On the building in this photo, I lagged diagonally down through the top of the beam, into backing strategically placed in the framing. But I had this house stripped down to the studs, so this was easy. In a pinch, I have used a Simpson universal framing anchor at the top of the beam to wall joint, then covered where the anchor fastens to the wall sheathing with siding.
This is another big arsed bracket, but using rough sawn 2x4s and a 4x6. I had to blow this up pretty big from the original so it's grainy and in shadow, but you can make out the exposed lag heads, at least the lower one. I really like...let's see here...
Do you ever apply a bracket on top of (after) the siding? Assuming that the bracket is purely decorative... Matt
I can't recall ever doing that, Matt. Usually building with these brackets have some type of traditional siding, like lap or sidewall shingles so I think it would be pretty tough to go over that...I think I'd carefully cut the existing siding big enough to fasten the vertical member flat against the sheathing.
Now...you COULD add brackets on top of T-111, board and batten, t&g cedar...any other flat type siding...why not? But to say I've evr done it, I'd have to say no (not that I think there'd be anything wrong doing it).
Now one thing I HAVE done, but don't think I have any photos in my computer of, is use a 4x6, or 4x8 as the top horizontal member, sticking it out 21" or so to support the fly rafter or barge board, and run it back into the wall framing 24" so it is self supporting. Then, whatever type diagonal brace you add is unstructural and can simply be nailed to the face of the corner board. Looks fine and there's no way that 4x is ever gonna sag under that little bit of load. Only thing is, you have to be planning this method way ahead of exterior detailing - you have to frame those pockets when you frame the walls. You can leave the diagonal braces off too, if headroom is ever an issue. I know I have some photos of some overhangs supported this way someplace, but I'm sure you get the picture.
The old fashioned ones I've done are usually a triangle.... 2x4 vertically on the wall, 4x4 horizontally generating from the top of the 2x4, and a diagonal 4x4 brace. The whole thing is preassembled on the ground, and I've seen them nailed to the sheathing and also nailed over the siding. One is positioned at the ridge and one at or near each corner, and possibly one or more breaking the span of the barge depending on how long the barge is.
The roof sheathing should cantilever from the attic so that it's somewhat self supporting. It's more typical in my experience to use beadboard to do the exposed sections and plywood over the attic only, rather than expose the bottom of the ply... although you could add a decorative layer of paneling under the eaves later.
Run the ridge long, and the top plates of the wall.
The rafter becomes 'almost ' self supporting, the weak link perhaps the extended wall plates.
Solid blocking between the gable wall or last rafter, and the fly or barge rafter.
Let a 2x4 in the tops (every 3-4ft) of the last two commons and the fly, the other end terminating at a buut to the third common in. Ends up looking like a ladder.
About a hundred other ways?????? I hit a few.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
OK, now let's get this conversation back on track. Attached are some pics of the type of braces the original post was inquiring about (IMO):
You said: Any advice on how to set them?
I'm doing a few houses like those pictured. I was planning on assembling the brackets on the ground and then attaching them to the house with some of those long Strong-tie (I think that is the brand) screws.
I've looked at a number of old houses with this detail, and it seems to be architecturally correct for the horizontal member of the knee-brace to extend beyond the face of the rake fascia - fly rafter, barge board, or whatever you want to call it. Really, to be fully architecturally correct, the horizontal member would tie back into the roof framing like the lookouts do as discussed in the previous posts.
Good post for the files...
corbells, is the name.