I guess this is more of a rant, but also looking for opinions/advice. So I am a small high end remodeler, been going at it for a couple of years solo, but finally got to a point where I needed help one to just get things done and two to allow me time away from the jobsite to grown the business. So I find this 26 yr old “kid”, good head on his shoulders, knowleged etc. when I interviewed him, only concern I saw was no time with previous employers more then 6-9mos. Called a couple of his previous bosses and basically got the “good guy” feedback.
Well, I hired him back in October, and he’s definately been a help…good skills and instincts, BUT he’s a total “know it all”! Questions everything I do, who I use as subs, suppliers, etc. Not only is this kid a know it all on the jobsite, but give him any subject, and you guessed it, he’s the expert!
So, I’ve basically spent 6 mos now trying to not let it get to me, and just reminding him it’s my company, and he needs to just do as I say even if he may think he’s got a better way. Trying to do that in a nice/subtle way has definately been a challenge.
Well, today he really got to me…did I mentions he’s also very opinionated? LOL Anyway, I havent ever really discussed politics with him, not significant to the task at hand as I see it, and I generally, unless I am prety sure I am pretty in sync with someone, I keep my politics private at work. On the jobsite today, the client had Rush Limbaugh on, and well, my “guy” goes balistic about what “hateful pieces of S%^& right wing idiots” are. News flash to him, I consider myslef pretty right of center and am certainly not hateful nor an idiot! I just tried to change the subject to avoid a confrontation, but it definately has me steamed tonight.
While I certainly belive everyone has the right to their opinion, and I absoultly respect somones opinon even if I may vehmantly disagree with them, I think this episode is more of a sign of him immaturity. The know it all, opinated, talk too much personality is more signs of the same immaturity. My concern is mounting that this kid will really say something stupid and agrivate one of my subs, another employee oreven worse, a client. Of course, I need the help, and the grass may not be greener with someone new…..the delima!
Sorry for the rant, but just curious for your guys thoughts..
Thanks!
Replies
I would part ways. Life is too short and work is too hard to deal with someone like that. I would rather work alone than with someone who questions everything. It just makes everything more difficult than it already is. And yes, I realize I am a hard line azzhole.
"It is what it is."
"I am a hard line azzhole" I not calling you one by any means. My point is that most owners of small companies don't realize how opinionated and overbearing they are.
This kid might be just like you but a few years younger. You might be the same way but you just don't talk as much. So if you don't talk about how you feel about something you don't feel it? I don't think so.
I've worked closely with small business owners over the years. If I was interviewing to work closely with one I would make sure we had an understanding on some basic issues.
With most small business owners it's their way or the highway.
Is he more of an asset or potential liability? Seems more like the latter.
This should be his first and only warning on this type of subject.
If he was ranting around the clients home and they heard him, he gets the opportunity to apologize in person and in writing to the homeowner whether they were offended or not. If he passes on that opportunity, he's gone. If this happens again, he's gone. No questions asked.
Seems like the relationship between the two of you hasn't been enough boss-employee. He has no business questioning your decisions. If he questions you on the clock, what does he do off the clock and when you aren't around? Kind of like the old saying: Know your role and shut your hole.
In a down market, good help should be easier to find than good customers.
Kid,
I think Rush is a loudmouth, hateful piece of sh*t, too. But I'd never say it on a job where I was someone's employee. When I work for a someone, my actions, attitude and behavior all reflect on them and more importantly, their business. That's always been the way I approach it.
This guy could cost you a job, a reference, or a good sub. Make it clear to him he keeps his mouth shut or he finds a new job. It's lean out there, lots of guys looking for good work. give him some perspective ;)
I've worked with a couple guys like that. One of them, especially, was an agitator. He loved to get peoples goat and found it endlessly amusing. He was a great carpenter and smart... but he could be really devisive on a job. Almost saws guys take a swing at him more than once.
Good for some serious laughs, though.
- Kit
You hit it on the head! Of course he (and anyone for that matter) is entitled to their opinon. In this case, I tend to disagree (sounds like with you too lol), but I was really offended of how he broad brushed every "conservative" with the same disparaging remark, and if he was smart and more mature, he might have realized he was speaking about me as well as many others he may work with or for who happen to have different political philosophies than himself. That doesn't make us "hateful" "POSs" or anything else, just makes us of a different opinion. Bottom line is a 'mature' employee would just keep his mouth shut on the job. Luckly I was the only one who heard it, but as you can tell, yes he offended me wiht his remarks!
Kid,
Now you know why he has only stayed with the other guy's 6 to 9 months. And they are protecting there butt's by not telling the whole truth.
My suggestion is to start looking for someone else, and learn from this. Know what questions to ask.
Nailer
i would tell him when he has his own bizness he can have his own soapbox till then its your job and no talking of political or religion is allowed unless hes asked. When he has his own biz he can choose his own subs till then its YOUR choice. I know this because thats what was told to me when i was 26.
If you've had "the talk" with him a few times, as you've indicated, then it's time for the ultimatum...the "my way or the highway" speech. If he has the ability to restrain himself, he'll apply it. If he doesn't, it's not your problem. Let him learn from repeated experience, if he can.
"If you've had "the talk" with him a few times, as you've indicated, then it's time for the ultimatum...the "my way or the highway" speech. If he has the ability to restrain himself, he'll apply it. If he doesn't, it's not your problem. Let him learn from repeated experience, if he can."
That was my thought too.
Maybe that's why he's only had 6 - 9 month jobs.
Bryan
"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
Edited 3/4/2008 9:52 pm ET by BryanKlakamp
Edited 3/4/2008 9:53 pm ET by BryanKlakamp
Maybe that's why he's only had 6 - 9 month jobs.
I've never done a background check on anyone I've hired, mainly because if they have "issues" with authority figures, it'll come out pretty quickly when working for me.
It's not that I'm difficult, just that I have certain methods and/or procedures which I expect my employees to follow. I explain what I want and how I want it done, then ask for questions. After that, I expect full cooperation.
In addition, I have a three strikes rule...something very fair that gives me a simple equation to follow.
If an employee doesn't follow instructions, I'll ask for an explanation. If the explanation isn't credible...just an excuse...I get him to re-focus on the method/procedure I've given him and tell him again that I expect him to follow that. Mental note: strike one.
If I notice another instance of neglect or willful disregard I'll offer another perspective to the guy on why I consider it important to follow the previously described procedure. Again, I'll ask for his cooperation, adding a warning about his job being in jeopardy if he screws up in a similar way. Strike two.
This is all gentle but straightforward indoctrination. After I've taken the time and shown him the respect to explain a method and the reasoning behind it, it's my judgement that a well balanced individual should comply, simply because I'm paying him to do so.
Any digression requires approval from me. I tell him that too. If it doesn't make the necessary impression, I'll fire him without rancor, when strike three...or sometimes four...arrives.
give him the parting phrase i once used on a former employee & that was " I dont know how i would do without you but come monday morning i am going to find out "
the man told a other employee that it was the smoothest he ever got fired when he thought he was getting a raise
The great part of being the owner of your business is having control of who works with you. There are other great hands out there (just real hard to find) and you spend almost as much time with this person as you do your spouse or significant other. Time to part ways, life is too short.
I have had similar employees and now when I interview I try to find skills and personality that are compatable with our crew. Both are important.
Bruce
Tell him everything that you just said in your first post.
HudsonValley said what I was going to say. The "My way or the highway" speech has been heard before by this guy believe me, and you may want to point that out to him.
Ask him why he thinks he doesn't seem to stay on very long with employers and see what he says. I'm sure he'll make it their fault and say that somebody else is to blame. Look him straight in the eye and tell him that you're sure that you are not the first person in his life to ever confront him about this problem and see what he says or does. Probably he'll deny it.
Also point out to him that he is every bit the loudmouth and a PITA as these right winged pundits he rails against.
If it's affecting you, then he needs to change his ways or leave.
This type of behavior is a very obvious sign of deep insecurity. I have someone in my family like this.
Sounds like he has hit the 6 - 9 month mark with you too!
I've been around guys like that to but there is a time and a place for all that garbage and it doesnt seam like he knows where that is.
He is right about one thing though, the Rush deal! That still dont make it right what he did.
Time to say good bye, heyyy heyyy, good bye.
Doug
Introduce him to Breaktime -- he'll fit right in.
I got one too and there will not listen, when you call them an idiot the secertary will crawl you for hurting his feeling.
Before you give him an ultimatum, make sure that you're not part of the problem. I'm not saying that you are, but would it have ticked you off as much if he had lambasted liberals? As I read your post, I couldn't help but wonder why his immature behaviour was getting so deep under your skink. However, there's no excuse for annoying the HO or other subs. I understand the HO was out of ear-shot so it wasn't an issue THIS time, but make it clear to him that would be seriously crossing the line.
Also, take a hard look at your managing techniques. You're not micro-managing, are you? Consider giving him tasks that are more independent and let him figure out the best way to do it (since he's so "smart").
The bottom line should be can you work with him, not whether or not you like what he says. If his continual questioning of the way you want things done gets in the way of productivity, then he should be fired for unsatisfactory performance, not for being a loud-mouthed idiot.
I have worked with someone who has some of those same traits, but much more mild. I have benefited from his questions and occasional know-it-all attitude more than it has hindered productivity and I would happily work with him again.
"I may not know what I'm talking about-but I know I'm right" -Muhammad Ali-
Edited 3/4/2008 8:15 am ET by Henley
Don,
I agree, I certainly have my own style, etc., but I fancy myself a pretty easy going guy to work for. Everyone I have ever had work for me either in a construction environment or corporate (a previous life I led for a few years), I like to take a 'team' approach, meaning I value input, and do want to hear differing suggestions, etc.
It's not about the politics at all really. Yes, I am politically a conservative, but have many friends, have had many co-workers and even had girlfriends who were/are certainly left of my position. We respected eachothers differing opinions, and were happy!
What really has gotten under my skin with this guy is his 'I'm right and everyone else is wrong' attitude. Again as for politics, had he lambasted a liberal, while I might have agreed with some points if it were a policy discussion, but I find resorting to name calling and nasty labels, etc. juvenile and a sign of being un/mis informed on facts and reality. I don't like that sort of behavior on either political side.
Again, it's about maturity. What I would love to say to him is, look, you're 26, you have alot of life experience to gain. Calling a floor layer who's done high end floors for 30 plus years an 'idiot' and 'POS' because he left a 1/2" gap along the walls versus the 1/4" gap you learned to do on one job you laid flooring for 3 months on is the sign of someone who either doesn't want to learn or just completely so closed minded that they refuse to see things different from how they belive it should be.
I really have tried 'mentoring' and teaching this guy the finer points of the business, because, like I stated, he has good skills and instincts as a carpenter, but it just seems to fall on deaf ears. This business is complex and there is a heck of alot to know/learn. I've been in it for 20+ years, and I still learn new things almost every day by observing/listening to/consulting with other people in the field.
I hate letting someone go, even guys who were incredibly horrid employees, because I realize losing your job is a big deal, and one I certainly don't take lightly. Of course, my business must come first, and I have to keep that in mind.
Kid
Kid,
I am not in construction but have hired and fired lots of people over the years. My take is that you should have had a direct conversation with him early on when his attitude began to show.If he's good at everything else but his mouth tell him exactly what you expect and that he's a goner if he can't comply consistently. Let him decide his fate, he's a big boy. Depending on your state, it may be best to put it in writing and have him sign.If he complies, complement him and maybe give him a little raise. Kinda like a reward treat for Fido when he finally asks to go out to pee.And of course his previous employers wouldn't be honest...they can be sued by either him or you. These days it's best just to confirm an employee's tenure and leave it at that.Todd
I get the impression that you want to fire him for his political views, his youthful indiscretion, and his personal interactions. Also, you want him to not question your authority.
It sounds like his work is satisfactory.
I don't think there is anything unusual or wrong about someone thinking they are right and everyone else is wrong. Rush is a good example. Just about all politicians and even all the presidential candidates think they know better than the others. Almost every intelligent young person thinks they are right on all subjects, IMO.
Unless they have the good fortune to get a job working for someone who shares their views, they tend to stick out and irritate.
I suggest you figure out what kind of behavioral changes you want from this guy and then sit down with him and clarify your position. Even if he agrees to change, you may find that trying to change another person's behavior may require several attempts and may ultimately be impossible.
If you can't stand his political position, you'll just have to lie to him and tell him the reason you are letting him go is that you don't like the way he expresses himself.
I would absolutly never make employee decisions based on someone's politics, that's their right and their business. I was only using the political example as a sign of someone who doesn't know when to 'shut up and do their job'. Yes, his work is generally satisfactory, however, my "beef" is that because of the know it all attitude, his opinions, comments and actions are intruding on my running the business. He is a carpenter, plain and simple, he is not may partner, not an independent contractor, etc. It is not of his business who I use as subs, what jobs I take or don't take, evesdropping on conversations with myself and my client and then offering his opinion. That's my concern with his performance. Hence my delima, a decent "worker" when he focuses, but focus on his job is the real problem. If I gave the impression I am judging his on-job performance based on his political views, then I was most certainly misunderstood.
"I get the impression that you want to fire him for his political views, his youthful indiscretion, and his personal interactions. Also, you want him to not question your authority."Didn't get that at all from what Kid wrote. The main thing is, the guy won't shut up.I think Blue said it best.
"I think Blue said it best."I'll second that LOL!Actually, I just wanted to weigh in again and say that my personality forces me to have a very direct discussion regarding "discussions" very early on when I have a new employee. Most times, I quickly figure out that a new employee is going to be doing something that might be inefficient, dangerous or contrary to my accepted methods. At that point, I have to step in and "teach" or "mentor" or just plain ole "be the boss". Normally, at this juncture, the true colors of most employees will come out. Sometimes they don't surface for a few weeks but normally, everyone reacts in the way that they normally do. I suspect that this fellow would fall in to the category of "defensive" when it comes to discussing techniques. I also suspect that he might be the kind of fellow that trys to disguise his defensiveness with what he perceives to be "intelligent discussion". At this point, my many years of experience kick in and I very directly and swiftly get things straightened out. What does "straightening things out" mean? That means that the younster and I have the discussion. I tell him that I appreciate his input but I don't have time to hash it all out right now. I just want him to do it my way and we can discuss the techigue ad nauseum at lunch. Sometimes the fellow will sulk. I don't care, I don't know because I'm already walking away. The next time the situation comes up and I detect the defensiveness, I directly explain that I"m willing to share my knowledge and discuss things with him, but he's got to make it easy on me. Furthermore, if he's not interested in learning from me and trying to understand my system than I'll probably not bother trying to share any more information with him. At that point, he might not be bright enough to understand things, but the reality is that if he's not smart enough to learn from me and if he's not smart enough to accept my conversation in the manner that I WANT IT, he's history. I've said in other discussion that the number one lesson that I learned was to surround myself with likeminded people that I could get along with. In my later years, I learned to cut guys loose immediately at the first inclination that it wasn't going to work out with me in the long term. I also know that if we can't communicate intelligently with one another: it ain't gonna work out long term. When I put two and two together, that guy would be history very early in the game. The OP probably doesn't have the long history of running crews that I do but he can learn from my mistakes. My biggest mistake as a young employer was to hang on to guys like him and try to reform them. In my later years, I might tell this guy "Sorry, you have to go. You seem to be a good carpenter but you and I don't seem to have the same set of values when it comes to discussing things. I want a guy that will listen and learn from me and you haven't developed that skill yet. Maybe if you get that experience somewhere else and come back to me, we can work together some time down the road." He'd probably stutter a bit and try to argue that he knows how to get along but I'd cut him short and ask him to leave the jobsite immediately because he was off the clock. Harsh? Yes...I call it tough love and self preservation. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"Again, it's about maturity. "Maybe. I've seen 65 year old guys talk stupid incessantly. Kid....this is on you. You are the boss and your crew says what you allow it to say. It's a pretty simply equation: you allow the mouth to talk and he talks. If you decide that the mouth will be silent, it will be silent or it will be gone. You probably should pick up two books: "How to win friends and Influence People" and "Toxic People". The first one teaches you multiple skills for dealing with people. Get the audio version and let Junior listen to it on his headphones. Make him listen for two weeks straight, then every time he opens his mouth and violates one of the principles, discuss it from the authors point of view. This character needs to understand that part of his value is the image he presents to the subs, co-workers, clients and yes....you! The second book Toxic People explores people like him and give you four options on how to deal with them. It's a very useful book. Me, I'd just tell him to "shut the f up" if I had already broached the subject in a nicer manner! Yes it's harsh, but most often, bullheads like this only respond to bullheaded commands. I wouldn't allow him to call any of the trades "idiots" even if there were only me and him talking and hearing it and I'd certainly demand that he back up every one of his expert opinions with written documentation. My opinion is that you are too afraid to lose this guy because you know how hard it is to find help. As a result, he's walking over you with his mouth. You have to rein him in even if you lose him. One way is to start interviewing onsite for his replacement. When he asks what you are looking for tell him "I'm looking for a guy with your skills that doesn't aggravate me with his mouth.". Then walk away. He'll decide what he wants to do... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Im on a job to build or fix something, Out of respect i dont put political bumper stickers on my truck nor play talk radio when anyones around, Nor do i bring up religion, i might tell this young man why and say we have to leave this stuff out of our biz lifes.I have worked for bigwigs in both partys but never say anything, Its there house , there property and there bizness, Just like its your bizness, Today i was fixing a roof and heard Randi Roads on my radio just to here what she had to say but no one was around. Besides this young fellow is young and dumb of coarse he is gonna hate reps and rush Give him a few years and having his Taxes taken out and he will wise up fast.>G<
"I've been in it for 20+ years, and I still learn new things almost every day by observing/listening to/consulting with other people in the field."And therein lies the difference. He couldn't say that. I'm in it for about 30 years now and I feel exactly the same as you. In fact I was just talking to my 20 yo helper today about learning and told him that I have learned a ton of stuff but at this point I have forgotten a whole load as well.
My nephew worked for me last spring, to kill some time, before he went into the Air Force.
Sounds just like your guy, smart beyond his years, but socially stupid. The thing that really bothered me was it was like I was lookin' at myself (at his age). Man was I a piece of work...
"I was lookin' at myself (at his age). Man was I a piece of work..."Yeah, I was thinking the exact same thing about myself. Looking back I can remember some times when I would shoot my mouth off about whatever just to be heard, and it makes me cringe now.When a man is one and twenty, he thinks he knows it all.
Large companies have an orientation and they go through with the new employees the company policies, what is expected, what is not tolerated, etc.
Part of managing people or raising children is to sit them down from time to time and tell them what they're doing wrong and changes they need to make.
You would be doing him a favor to work with him and help him improve.
According to the books and experts, a manager should keeps a distance between himself and his employees and this makes it's easier to sit down and talk to them and give them instructions.
But this is hard to do in real life working side by side people for 8 hours a day.
Some employees get defensive and think criticism simply means "he doesn't like me".
Good luck!
Here's what I'd do to that little meathead.........
first he gets a lecture in front of the HO about the fact that it was the HO's radio etc. and he should be a bit more polite.
Then I'd take him aside over coffee and try to learn something from him cause he seems to be a pretty smart dude.......everybody with a lick of sense who isn't a mindless idiot knows that Rush is a loud mouthed arrogant POS.
This guys a keeper..hell, man I'd give him a raise.
You only learn who has been swimming naked when the tide goes out.......Warren Buffet
>>the client had Rush Limbaugh on,<<
My kind of client!
Jim
kid... don't cut off your nose to spite your face
figure out how to deal with him.... blue gave you some good tips
at the same time
if you can't gain or regain control of your workp[lace.. then it's time for a changeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"if you can't gain or regain control of your workp[lace.. then it's time for a change"
be
That's my point of view too. In my later years, I was more prone to stopping and having a one minute chat about current events. I think I was trying to inject a little humanness into my presence instead of being a machine...but a minute of small talk is a lot when I'm trying to focus on a task. Also in my later years, I became more aware of my social responsibilities and recognized that as a service provider, my guys and I had to be cognizant about how we were perceived by the clients and more importantly, the possible clients (neighbors). I would muzzle any of my guys that was spouting politics...no matter which way he was leaning. I'd quietly explain that he might be offending the owners and possibly jeapordizing future work. If he couldn't relate and adjust to the financial realities of his actions: I'd fire him. On this point, I'd give him a couple chances, but at some point, he'd have to make a choice: yap or work. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
here is the deal....
those that think they know it all...
sure screw it up for those of us that do...
I've stated this alot... i don't care so much what you think but that you think at all...
I'll debate anyone about anything... anytime... except if you're drunk...
I like knowing why people think the things they do... love knowing the chain of thought that got then to where they are in their mindset...
most just want to dislike someone for little more than... their own bad situation
opinionated? yep... think everyone should be
the know it all part... I'm just guess'n but this guy has done alot of different jobs... watched people who he thought were skilled... observed their work... and if it was good in his eyes... "thats the way it should be done" everytime... I'm sure he files away the things you teach him or the way you do things... and they too become "the right way"... to further my guess... the kid is somewhat artistic, sees alot of detail... finds things... like dimes on the sidewalk... I'd also guess he's loyal...
it's a whole lot better to have someone you have to reel in.... than someone you have to push...
i'd keep him... and argue/discuss stuff with him everyday... I'd ask his opinion on off the wall stuff... I promise he'd eat it up... the best question usually is... "why do you think they think like that?
p
"i'd keep him... and argue/discuss stuff with him everyday... I'd ask his opinion on off the wall stuf"I agree..with one caveat. All that yapping has to be done at lunch....and I ain't letting anyone get on a soapbox for the entire lunch period! During work....I'd entertain about 30 seconds of chit chat....after that , my eyes are glazing over and I'm back thinking about what I'm doing. I remember guys used to ask me..." hey, didja see that movie last night?"...me: "NO". End of discussion.Hey what can I say....I want to concentrate on keeping my fingers out of the blade! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
you are right... of course...
even not being in peoples homes... it's pretty rare that we talk much while working... rare that 2 people are in the same part of the building for it to happen...
and since i don't speak spanish...
p
One of my customers - another contractor - has a guy something like that. If you've give him the slightest reason, he'll be sure to tell you how far off base 'whatever' is.
In this case, he's tolerated because he's such a character, it's amusing. Preaching to the customer is another matter, though. When it's the customer, well, an awful lot needs to be tolerated. Indeed, one advantage that contracting has over most other lines of work is that you're never around any single customer very long!
Jesus told us that a man's mouth speaks what his heart is full of. I'd take this guy's spouting off as an opportunity to look into his heart. Is he full of love and good cheer? Then keep him. Is he filled with petty hatreds and greed? Better lose him, then.
Otherwise, remember .... whenever someone "goes postal" everyone says 'he was such a quiet young man.' Consider his chatter as letting off excess steam - and try to find a way to harness that passion.
Management is a drag sometimes. Even though I'm a manager I still hate having to deal with behavior and personality issues. I can relate to your situation. I was a know-it-all-too (still am) but after getting the boot a couple of times I learned to keep my mouth shut because I needed a paycheck. I've also worked for a few know-it-all's too and believe me putting two of the same kind in the room can be quite tense. Now that I'm the top dog in the shop it really feels good to be the know-it-all and not have to keep my mouth shut either. If some young lad gets a little frisky and assertive I simply chop him down to size by giving him a task I know will humble him. Then when he screws up I show him "the right way" Even if he does okay on the task I manage to pick out some details that I make him do over just to put him back a few rungs. The point I'm getting at is weigh the situation out. If the personality conflict is too hard to overcome then adios him. If you think you can grow thicker skin then work around his quirks and slap him back in line starting with a father son talk.
As i got older and being the boss i became more and more detached from my workers, I am very very friendly and a big joker but toned all that down, If i said the wrong thing it has the potential to devastate someone, I must give orders and i must be firm, When i was the good ole buddy to my workers it backfired big time, Theres a reason in the military the officers dont talk directly to the men but through Sergeants, Much as foreman give directions on a jobsite, This is not always possible, When i hire someone i tell them you will be fired if you talk about my job and how much anything costs, You may talk about the weather and small talk but any biz is to be directed to me, I have had helpers telling the people i charged to much or i am doing something wrong, what a mess from someone trying to be a "hero" and knowitall.
I guess different management styles for different folks. I think a more rigid or structured approach may be more ideally suited for a large organization where uniformity is almost required in professional conduct just because of the number of employees involved. In a smaller grouping (1-5) I think the dynamics are a lot different and a different level of rapport has worked for me. For myself I don't mind if someone offers their opinion on a matter.
If I don't agree I'll simply point out why we need to do it my way.
If it's persistent to the point of being obnoxious I'll sit down and have meeting on why second guessing me on a consistent basis is an irritant and counter productive to a working relationship. Not merely because I said so but because the client has hired me based on my record and reputation. And that is in turn based on my way of doing things. If it appears that I am stumped or lacking in answers it is alright to offer an opinion and help me work through it and I may or may not take your suggestions. Otherwise my directions are to be taken as literal.
Maybe you shouldn't be posting online, asking strangers whether you should fire someone based on your side of a dispute.... It sounds as if you have already made up your mind anyhow.
Have you ever thought that this "kid" (which is a demeaning and belittling label to make for a co-worker of yours) may have been just trying to make conversation about politics?
I hope you let this guy go, so that you can go and take a Midol, and her can get on with building a career with someone whom respects him.
Jeeuz Jamie...you came out of the woodwork with your 7th post since 2004 to say that?!!!! I'll be ready in october for you next zinger LOL! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jamie,26 is a kid. And respect is a two-way street, and earned at that. And the boss is the boss. And the boss gets to make the rules. Steve
I'm certainly not going to be rude like you, but I feel compelled to respond to your post.
First of all, my mind wasn't made up. I turned to this forum for advice from other professionals in the field as to how I might mentor this individual and avoid having to let him go. If you really read what I originally posted, I mentioned if he just got over himeself, and was willing to learn new things he'd be a pretty solid carpenter.
Secondly, as far the the demeaning charge, I'd say having not immediately dismissed him on the numerous occasions he's tried to dismiss and question my knowledge and experience even in front of others is a testimant to my 'respect'. Like it or not, it is my business which does make me the 'boss'. If you don't like how the boss wants to do it, then I suggest you go try and start your own successful business...it's not easy.
Edited 3/4/2008 11:39 pm by KidBuilder
That was a well-written, even-tempered response. Clearly, you're not prone to overreacting. I hope your employee knows that about you if/when you let him go... or at least figures it out one day down the road.
Your response to the rudeness of Jamiep was well tempered and well said. I second what DonCanDo said in that it showed the type of even thinker you are and that you're not the one who's the jerk in the picture doing the knee jerking.
There has been some great advice given in this thread that we all can walk away with both as employers and employees. It was a good move.
true... but it's always interesting what makes some people tick
what were your other 6 posts ?
ie: what interest's you enough that you decide to participate ?
Hey Mike! HE NOW HAS 11 POSTS!!!!"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
it's quality, not quantity, bryan
jamie is high qualityMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Sorry for the misunderstanding. Just replying to your quote of how many posts he had made.
Have not read any of his other posts. Can you direct me to those, so I can get a better perspective?
Thanks, Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
no misunderstanding ... i was just ragging on you....
and pulling jamie's chain
welcome , jaime...don't be a strangerMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks! I feel relieved.
I sure wouldn't want to upset you. The outcome could be really bad!!!
Of course, I could get Gunner or Big Cal to help me out!!
"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
Edited 3/4/2008 11:12 pm ET by BryanKlakamp
now who's chain is getting pulled ?
bryan... you booking into doud's in august ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Sorry, we've got plans to be in the Smokys that week in August.
By the way, Did we just hijack this thread?
"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
Edited 3/4/2008 11:14 pm ET by BryanKlakamp
Edited 3/4/2008 11:15 pm ET by BryanKlakamp
Old school management style was to hire someone, jump down their throats if they made a mistake, and then fire as many people as possible so you can show the others who's boss.
At some point things changed and businesses looked at the cost of the loss of the employee and what it takes in time and expense to get another employee up and running and making you money.
In some situations it's to your benefit to train and refine the guy you've got.
I worked with high school seniors for 7 years and many many young people simply aren't prepared to go to work. They're very immature.
Even the brightest smartest kids (valedictorian) may be immature and not capable of functioning as a well mannered knowledgeable employee.
Schools can't really teach this.
Some kids learn it by working on the Farm at a young age.
Other kids learn by working for their parents.
But most kids struggle just the way you've been describing.
Most young people get fired and lose their jobs. They have poor attitude. They are unreliable. Immature etc the list goes on and on.
You hired my brother-in-law????
I fired my brother in law. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
We would love to hear how it's turning out...
I had a talk with him regarding using more professional behavior on the jobsite, including voicing his opinions on the clients choices of design, materials, colors, etc. He said he understood, but not 2 hours later he was at it again. This time, he was very vocally saying how what I was telling him to do was the wrong method. I was trying to explain to him why I was telling him to do it a certain way, and he just was not listening. I finally had to tell him to "stop" using the "boss voice" and explained, that he just needs to stop thinking he always knows better and listen to my logic (yes, I was right and he was wrong). The rest of the day seemed a bit tense, but at the close of the day, he apologized for his behavior.
As luck would have it that was the day before I left for a weeks vacation, so I havent worked with him since (we're a small shop, so he was basically off too). So we'll see how it goes. Unfortunately, I am starting to think it's in his DNA so to speak, the know it all behavior, and may not be a simple coaching/molding fix.
Again guys thanks for all the help and advice and I'll keep you posted.
Even if it's "in his DNA" he can learn to controls his behavior -- if he wants to. Continue to remind him, and if he doesn't seem to be making an effort then cut your losses.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I think it's great you have hung in there. Sounds to me like that apology was from the heart. I'd bet
you got your point across ,now he has to learn from
his mistake.
That can be difficult (as we all know). All in all, you both have done the right thing.
this is really a manifestation of what i call "A & B"...
you say one thing....
everyone nods their head you come back and it's the opposite of what you wantedyou were describing " A"...
they were hearing "B"your hard to please employee can be a real asset.. he questions instead of nodding his headand in the end... we're all striving for the BEST, MOST PRODUCTIVE, EASIEST, BEST RESULTS, PLEASED CUSTOMERS....jumble all those together and it's a wonder we make it thru the day if this guy is a thinker , and talented.... i think he's worth the effortMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I finally had to tell him to "stop" using the "boss voice" and explained, that he just needs to stop thinking he always knows better and listen to my logic (yes, I was right and he was wrong). ..................at the close of the day, he apologized for his behavior.
Good. You decided you're the boss.
Most difficult part of the job for new teachers is deciding who's the grown-up in the room, who's in control. It gets a lot easier after that.
Sounds like you've turned a corner for the best. I'm betting you'll end up with a good employee and a friend.
The OP is doing just fine, but you need to think it through. who's the grown-up in the room, who's in control. That sounds like an insecure know it all Boss. You can never expect more from someone else, then what you
bring to the situation.
Henley,I was afraid I might give that impression. Guess I should have fleshed it out a bit.
I think that by telling his employee to stop talking and listen, and then explaining the situation, the OP did take control. After the employee listened and thought about it, he apologized to the OP. Sounded like a good teaching moment with good results. The OP was the grown-up. No know-it-all, just a good boss with a good explanation to an employee."The OP is doing fine." I agree and said as much. Agree with your last statement too.
Edited 3/20/2008 8:40 pm ET by oldfred
i would like to go on the record by saying how much i have enjoyed this thread.
i agree with what mike smith is saying. it sounds to me that despite this guys know it all attitude he seems to me to have some qualities of a leader. someone who questions methods, even inappropriately, is at least thinking of alternative ways to do something and in the long run will probably be successful. i have known guys that take orders without questioning or thinking and i think this is disadventagous to both you and them. i want someone who can think on their feet, i want someone to keep me on my toes also, in a polite wat though. this will come with maturity...or it won't, but you can actually impact this kid in a positive way by helping him social skills and in turn you'll gain an asset.
i ask this. who among us hasn't been possibly perceived as a know it all? whether by someone you work for or someone who works for you, the chances are you have.
at the ripe age of 24 i have 8 yrs working full time in the carpentry trade. i have been on several jobs where i was taking orders from someone less skilled than myself (this isn't an overappraisal of my skill level either). my input was ignored until i stopped giving it. is this what you want?
it has been in my addmitedley limited experience that i grow and mature more around people i have to show patience with, and from the other point of view, it is not far in my memory where i remember those who were patient with me, whom without i would not be where i am today.
i now work for myself and i see many of my old faults in my workers. i want to yell and say "what are you thinking?", but i catch myself more and more and try to word it like, "here's a trick my father taught me." i've found them more receptive to the latter.
Every day is a gift, that's why it's called the present.
"I was afraid I might give that impression."It is a good impression. The guy has run off at the mouth instead of listening for years. Often, it takes a very harsh discussion to get him to listen. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
LOL, come to think of it I
came off a bit strong too. Yeah, it will be interesting to see if youth
makes a change.