I am pretty much a handyman so I don’t usually bid on these projects and I can’t find my means cost calculator book. I need to get this done by tomorrow. It is a 24×24 garage with one window, entry door and 2 garage doors, vinyl siding, 3 tab shingles. No electric. no insulation. prefab trusses. no sheet rock. The owner is gc the project and will get the foundation poured by another guy. I can figure out the materials it is just the labor I am trying to figure out. thanks
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Replies
Means will not help you much
It is more for commercial work, not handymen building garages.
I am curious if this owner is a GC, why does he not have a stable of frmers to call on already instaed of breaking in a handyman on this project? And doing it on short notice?
I just happen to have started site work and formed for a 24x24 slab to build similar, except stik frmed roof instead of trusses. 5/12 with overhang.
it came up on short notice too, but for a regular customer.
I figured a price for him last weekend, but I can't remember the labour only and I am doing the site and crete work.
But my numbers would not mean squat to you.
Nobodies would.
What you need to do is figure it out for your own methods.
Sit yourself down and make a list of each item
frame one wall and erect
x4
Set trusses
sheathe gable ends
Trim roof
Sheahe roof
Shingle roof
siding and ext trim
cleaanup
Now fill in your own best guess est of how long each will take you.
Then multiply by your rate and add for the overhead and profit
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no one can price your labor but you... it's your skill set... some on this board could frame and side that thing in less than 2 days... others just as skilled but slower paced might take a week...
i'd do it for... hmmm 7k labor.. if i had nothing else to do...
p
7k labor? That will never happen. We built quite a few garages this summer similar to what you're talking about. Two guys can frame, side and roof in 5 days for a typical detatched garage.
Maybe add an extra day if you're not so fast at one of the three.
7k labor? That will never happen.
Never say never. Stranger things have happened. A million people paid $3.95 for "pet rocks" back in the 70's. And Barry Bonds record breaking baseball went for $752,467.00 If the customer likes his work, trusts him, and has the money...View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
about 10-12 years ago I had a 24x28 garage built g for me by a local company that builds ONLY garages.
Of course, I arranged to shingle it myself--with my shingles--and the company remembered me--------a couple months later one of the 2 carpenters who worked on my garage was injured( non work accident) and the company had to change its' business model somewhat.
this is a company that builds 60-80 garages a year.at the time they built my garage
2 carpenters framed( no trusses, using actual rafters) sheathed,roofed, sided and windows and man doors---every 2 days. company built 3 garages a week on average using 2 carpenters.
they dug footers "in house"( using another employee who was also the truck driver/delivery person)-----block and flat work was subbed out. 2 carpenters built everything.---electric and overhead doors were subbed out.
the carpenter who had the non-work accident------was one of the sons of current company owner( 3 generation business). After he had his acccident another "carpenter" was taken on( nephew------initially unskilled)--STILL 2 carpenters----but siding and roofing was subbed out.
company STILL built 3 garages a week--they subbed the roofing to me. Typically on weds. I would go out and roof 2 garages------and roof the 3rd one on sat. mornings. I did that for them for about 2-1/2 years---in addition to my own projects.
company was a pretty good operation---acted as its' own inhouse lumberyard--stocked it's own lumber,block and shingles in its own wharehouses.Secretary, president(family), salesman( also family),2 carpenters( one family) driver, utility man.
It wasn't finehomebuilding--- but they are very honest and efficient.
stephen
On that baseball thing, think it's good fortune for the owner to sell the ball prior to Barry's indictment? What is the value of the ball now, or after this thing is over. On the garage end of things, in MI detached 22x24 garage, one 16x7 ohd, 1 2/8 man door, std trusses, fg shingles and vinyl siding going for 15-18k built. I think 3-4k in labor is a safe value for a couple guys working a week tops on this.
For a four-man crew I usually try to figure ballpark for labor about a grand a day. 3 grand would give a two-man crew 6 days tops - sounds viable for my business model. Your mileage may vary.
As far as the baseball, I have nothing worthwhile to add. (Like a lot of what I post!) =)View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
does that include the slab?
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No slab, labor only
Edit the 15-18k is turnkey, total package, 3-4 k labor
John
Edited 11/29/2007 7:51 am ET by JohnFinn
ok for the 7k i'll include paint...
btw... in a nice older section of town where they usually only have rear alley access/parking... for a pretty standard 24x20 or 24x20 or 22x22 ect... (whatever will fit) trimmed & sided to somewhat blend with or match the house... wired for a few lights & overhead door... one walk in one overhead... usually no windows ... turn key I've seen several that folks paid 20-25k for em... and were happy...
p
Maybe if you add paint and Hardie siding and some corner trim and...I live in that part of town too and we do a decent number of the garages you describe. A typical tear down and rebuild is around 20-25k. But I can call any one of a dozen framers to come out and frame,roof, and side for around $3k. The rest is in materials, demo, permits (around $350 typ.), concrete, windows, OH door, electrical, survey, etc, etc, etc,But hey if someone wants to pay 7k for just those three, more power to you. They would be better off hiring a turn key contractor to do the whole job though.
What part of town are you talking about? I saw you mention Inver Grove Heights in another post and wondered, but your profile is blank. Are you in St. Paul?
So Minneapolis near the creek.The production style of garage building is why I kind of scoff at the 7k. If we were talking about nearly any other type of project I would be harping to raise your bid. No one would do a 24x24 addition for garage prices. But a typical detatched garage is about the easiest thing to build. The companies that specialize in them can knock them out very fast.
I'd be interested to hear what sort of quality everybody is seeing in this garage work that is getting knocked out on a couple days or so.reason being, that I have seen four garages built here on the island by firms from the mainland that specialize in such.Three of those four are laughable, one is decently built.I've seen things like roof sheathing nailed at 16" OC, lack of studs at corners, single top plates, walls out of plumb by up to two inches, no headers over garage doors....I knew a guy who had hired a carpenter who'd had two years experience at such an outfit and he had to unlearn everything he'd been doing
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Most are built like ####.
Piffen,- i was very happy with mine.
Owned the garage about 10 years--it was pretty much the garage of my dreams, LOL.( people in the neighborhood STILL razz me about moving away from that garage and it's been 2-1/2 years( moved to better house,smaller garage)
the work is very vanilla---nothing fancy unless you pay extra. I roofed their garages for a couple years( 2-1/2 maybe--would have to look it up----but I suspect I climbed on something like 200 of those garages.
you got----------poored footer, block foundation, poured floor.2x4 wall studs 16" 0.C., 2x6 rafters, collar ties every other pair of rafters,-same on wall ties also i believe, 7/16" osb sheathing on walls and roof----usually a 4/12 pitch,though mine was a 7/12., usually 1 gable end vent(rear gable)-though mine had a cap over ridge vent instead, vinyl siding, perforated soffet, overhead door jambs wrapped in aluminum---but the man door was just factory primed steel door with composit jambs.
sheathing was stapled every 6-8 inches---the roof very nicely---the walls i had issue with.( on the walls they straddled adjacent panels putting 1 leg of a staple in each panel. I don't know why they stapled the roof prperly and skimped on this----but on my garage the night after it was stood up--but before it was sided-- I hit all those wall joints with 8d nails.
15# felt on roof and20 year 3 tabs( I did it my self and upgraded my underlayment and shingles).
i had a chance to watch them pretty close on mine--as I was at home at the time replacing all the windows in my house--- i also watched them work many times on other garages.
Tell ya straight up??????? I have always felt they gave you a solid,plain vanilla project-fair value for the money. you might laugh----but the quality of the work on a lot of the stuff EXCEEDS a lot of the stuff I have seen on new construction houses. this particular company has been in business since the 1920's. I did and do respect them as honest businessmen--they taught me A LOT about business-especially sales and dealing with customers
i have never felt the were the least bit dishonest--but they weren't overly generous either.--They STILL call me to do projects for them every year or 2--work on their personal homes roofs--or work on unusual garage roofs.
In fact- I am in VERY preliminary discussions with them in regaurds to building something maybe 30x40 on a lot yet to be acquired---to use as a shop.
stephen
Stephen, that would have been the same experience that I saw way back when. The owners of the garage framing crew tended to be the foreman and he would have swatted one of his guys if they did something that looked like doggy do do. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
How hard could it be to frame four simple, square walls? It's not rocket science?!!!I've seen slow crews do shoddy work including nailing sheathing at 16" oc...or less! Speed is not the element that dictates quality. Its an indicator of someone that knows how to get things done efficiently and goes about it in a businesslike manner. The guys that used to put up garages every day that I knew did a crackerjack job. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Jim,
Speed in and by itself is an indicator of nothing but relative motion. Slow or fast , has zero to do with quality or efficiency. Slow can be efficient and fast can be shoddy, and vice-versa.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
that's all I am asking about. Jim and Steve both saw plenty good.
I sure don't see much of the specialists. I just observed that 3 of four that I did see were lousy work.Viewed from the opposite, when I have stated here before how fast I was when I shingled day in and day out, there were plenty here who thought I was either lying or doing crudey work. Thye could not conveive that I was just good at it, getting every body motion down to a sceince. Same with these garages. Same crew building same structure time after time can beat the daylights out of a custom crew on an addition to a nice house.Or a less skilled crew can be competing in that market and have to cut corners to keep up and make a buck.How's a customer to know?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=83011.43
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"How's a customer to know?"All they know about you is what you sell them.
"How hard could it be to frame four simple, square walls? It's not rocket science?!!!"Exactly!Roofing ain't rocket science either
But I've seen it screwed up. The speed demons used 2-3 nails per shingle...see what I'm saying?It can be done fast and well, but it can also be done faster and not well.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The MI boys used to stand up garages in one day. That was four guys (one carpenter and three laborers) hand pounding. They'd cut a hip or gable roof and put a 2' overhang on the front, 6" box eaves on the side and a flush rake in the back if it was a gable. The sheathing was celotex with let in 1x6 windbracing. They'd also shingle the thing before they went home for the day. Siders would show up the next day and install vinyl, aluminum or steel siding. If the siding was wood, the carpenters would do it but I never saw a crew do it so I don't know if they spent another day, or a longer day. I suspect a longer day because the celotex job was done in less than 8 hours.No doors were included. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)b
Oops, I almost forgot. That garage that I'm talking about was the standard 20 x 20 with the 2' overhang in front. I doubt that the 24 x 24 would take more than an extra hour. We'd offer to do something like this for about 3k. In fact, I'd love to have someone offer me one of these each day for the next year. We'd gross 900k and pay out 200k in wages, 200k in overhead and 50k in nails leaving about 450k for MU and profit. Things don't work that easy though... FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
I'd come in around 3k as well.
Add another $200 per overhead door. Easy two hours worth of work.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
that would take myself and a helper 7 days
Day 1 frame walls, sheath, set trusses
Day 2 sheath roof, paper roof, rake trims
Day 3 Overhang trim and housewrap
Day 4 roofing
Day 5 door and window install, garage bucks, siding
Day 6 Siding
Day 7 metal and vinyl
I agree with Piffin. infact that is pretty much how I calculate most of my jobs. The only thing I would do is add in for a couple of monkeys to help speed up the job.
Dave
Red-
There was a post about a year ago from somebody that was getting involved with something similar. A bunch of people went over things with him and I think a few numbers were thrown around. He decided that he knew something nobody else did and ignored the advise. He was sure he could blow this thing out. Well, in the end, he came back a few months later and said he was about to leave the job. turned out he had bid it real low because of his inexperience and it was costing him big time. He went so far as to blame the customer for taking advantage of him! (Think about that in your situation.)
Moral of the story - don't underestimate it, especially when it's something out of your normal element. No offense intended, but if you are this close to needing a bid and are lost enough to be asking for numbers in this environment, maybe this isn't the right job for you.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Don, I mis-read your original message. Thanks for your input regarding this specific job. Red
Red,
My detached garage is exactly the same as what you are building. I did everything but the slab myself with help from one friend who was a roofer. Only difference was I used T111 and painted it instead of siding. We framed, stood up, and sheathed the walls the first day. Set the trusses the second day, I might be wrong on this (it was 20 years ago) but I remember us doing the entire roof sheathing and shingles over the Labor day weekend. I finished the facia and trimming out, and painting over a few weeks time frame. Paid a local garage door company to do the roll up door. I am certainly not a framer, but I think if I was planning to do it again, I would figure a good full time week with a good helper.
Hope this helps,
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
i used to work for a company that just did garages subbing, 2 of use would do one in a week, I have no idea your skill level but i would guess you and a helper would be at least 2 weeks
Thanks fellas. I just moved to this area about a year ago so I am still trying to establish myself as a kitchens and bath guy. (meaning I will take any job to make it through the winter)
To my career counselor Don K: I think I will give it another 8 years to see if it will stick.
Redtoolbox-
Just for the record, I was not counseling you on your career. Hope it's long and prosperous. My comment was aimed at this project.
How long did you decide it was going to take you to build the garage? Was it based on the responses you got?
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
I worked for a garage building crew a number of years ago. That building would take four of us, ten hours. The garage doors would be installed by the door company. They can do six doors a day. Otherwise, they are about 2 hrs. per door.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
"That building would take four of us, ten hours."What about Siding? Windows & Vents? Man doors? Framing is always the easy part.
That would include everything on a 24x24, 5/12 pitch, two doors, two windows, one passage door, siding, exterior trim, roofing. It would not include wrapping the trim. The trusses would be up and sheathed by lunch time. Trim, roof and siding after. We would sub the doors and openers. The company ran four crews, only during the summer. There was always a 'special' on 24x24 with T-111 siding, no sheathing. Every crew could easily build one per day. I does mean that everybody would make the team. There isn't any room for filling chalk boxes or changing blades on company time. You have to operate a little like a pit crew, everyone knows their job and the next step. When the tailgate drops, it's all business. There are a couple of tricks that speed things up, use pre-cut studs, use solid lumber headers and corners, order the trusses cantilevered so there is no soffit framing, order gable trusses, sheath and trim them before lifting. We don't have to worry about bad concrete jobs or poor site conditions. Four hard workers can lay down and gun off 42 sheets fairly fast. That's about all a no frills 24x24 is.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
hammer1,
your production rates and observations are right in line with what I observed with the garage builder I subbed for------you did it with 4 men in one day----these guys did it with 2 men/2days.----- these guys cut rafters though,,,no trusses.
Also---as you observed----no standing around chatting though. Everybody in constant motion---constant. Not frantic--but moving with a purpose. they would talk to each other--but never stop moving and producing----right through rain also---it would have to rain pretty hard to stop these 2.
stephen
On the other end of the spectrum . . .
24x36 2-story gambrel garage.
2-1/2 years and counting . . . .
Don
So track your time so you can bid the next one righter, right?
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!