Hello Everyone,
I received an estimate to install 4 Stanley pre-hung exterior steel clad doors (2’8 by 6’8) and was taken aback by the labor costs. These are pretty generic doors available at HD. Labor is to include detach old doors and frame, install new doors, install new locks and install casing on the exterior only. Material costs are what I expected them to be. The labor costs quoted are $1600 for all 4 doors. Not to mention and additional 20% for P&O. When all is said and done, its close to $500 a door. Assuming that a competent carpenter and a helper should be able to install 4 doors in one day, am I being totally unreasonable in expecting this to cost considerably less?
Thanks,
Tark
Replies
All I'm going to say is this:
DO NOT take the labor cost and divide it by the # of hours that your carpenter is onsite and think that this is what is going into his pocket. Do you do this at restaurants? Do you figure out how much your steak is worth and divide it by the hourly rate of the cook that prepared it and then question the price on the menu?
If you don't like it, get someone else to do it or do it yourself. You get what you pay for. No one here has any way of knowing what your carpenter's overhead is....just like the restaurant. Better yet, let Home Depot install 'em for a few dollars less and then pay your carpenter to come back and install them correctly.
Does your carpenter pay worker's comp?
Liability?
Self-employment taxes?
What if one of the doors gets damaged during delivery?
Does he provide a warranty?
Is he going to get rid of your old doors for you?
Should he float the cost of all these things so that you can have new doors in your house?
What is it worth to you?
Get it?
That said......I don't think I could get $400 a door. Doesn't mean I don't deserve it though! ;)
Dieselpig,
I appreciate your input, but $400.00 in labor per door, worker comp and liability be damned, is still a considerable amount. We are not talking about a custom installation, re-framing, or particularly special doors. I have changed a couple of these doors elsewhere in this structure previously, so I have a very clear understanding of what is involved. Each door took me 2 hours and please understand that I don't do this everyday.
This bid was part of a much larger work order that this firm was bidding. Now this firm stands a really good chance on losing the whole bid, as I will be securing a second estimate and will probably leave the door installation off. It is worth it to me to install them myself. As you have indicated, I may not know this firms true costs and overhead, but he does not know mine either and my wife and our baby girl come first. . .well before his.
There is no warranty in the contract, but I'm sure I could get a one-year on installation if I asked. I will be disposing of the doors.
As for the contractor's other costs, float, etc, well that's where his 20% P&O comes in. My only concern was the labor costs specific to the doors.
Regardless, thank you for your input. It is appreciated.
Tark
Tark,
After reading your second post, it seems that you already have your mind made up. Kudos to you for realizing that you can save $1600 for you and your family by taking a Saturday and installing the doors yourself. But since you were already convinced that the price was too high, why ask?
I said that I wish I could get 400 bones for a "normal" installation
Piffin said it was high, but with-in reason
VH said that he get's four and a quarter.
Sounds like it could be what the job is worth, doesn't it?
Guess your contractor blew a bigger project by bidding too high on the doors. Bummer for him....maybe, maybe not.
No free dessert cuz you bought dinner.
(What's with all the food references from me tonight? I better get some food in me, quick!)
Hi Dieselpig,
I'm hoping my earlier post was not too abrupt. There are always opportunity costs to be weighed with these sort of decisions. I've hired this firm for other projects in the past 2 - 3 years and in general they have done a good job. Although I felt their pricing was a bit more then I would have prefered in the previous projects, I have never exhibited my concerns for their pricing until now. We're know quantities to one another, they get decisions fast, payments even faster, and we have had a good positive realtionship. While I would rather spend my weekend with my family then changing doors, the alternative is to work considerably harder and faster during the week at my "real" job. I appreciate a good working relationship with anyone, but even then there are limits.
Unfortunately for this firm, I will be getting a second estimate. The next contractor to make the bid will know that the bid and work for these doors is only for consideration and the much larger part of the work is the main concern. The work is related but at least that way, I won't be setting expectations if I choose to not go with their door installation.
Could I do this with the first contractor? Probably. We'll see what this week brings. But I consider my time valuable too and if I have to make the effort to get a second bid, then that's the risk the first contractor takes. Good relationships are a two-way street.
Again, I thank you for responding.
Tark
Seems the known quantity is you.
$1600.00 for 4 doors is not close to $500.00 per door...it is exactly $400.00 per door.
The best thing this contractor did is motivate you to spend lots of time shoping price while he spends quality time with his wife and kids.
What exactly do you think he is going to do with all the extra money you are paying him??? Retire on a secret Island sipping umbrella drinks while thinking of you???
Get over yourself and your job and be happy you have a price and someone willing to do it.
GEOB21,
In the original post, I also indicated that 20% profit and overhead was being added. On $1600 in labor, that comes to an additional $360, or just shy of $2K.
Tark
Depends on a few variables, but my price for one exterior door starts at $525.00"Don't take life too seriously, you are not getting out of it alive"
Be sure that I understand you.
You say that as an amature, you can tear out the old units, and replace them with new prehungs, and clean up after yourself, and do all the necessary shiming and waterproofing, and replace the hardware, in two hours each??????
i'd be spending more like four hours - providing everything went well, and I still can't see the site and working conditions.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Better make it five or six. You got travel time, clean up, and you know you're going to mess with a storm door trying to get it to fit in a new opening.
Or you could hang them like a framer - walk up to the opening, shoot 6 or 8 nails out of your gun into the brick mold and walk. "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Easy there tiger!
Hi Piffin,
Yes! 2 hours per door, shimed, leveled, flashed, and chaulked. My brother was kind enough to act as a helper (only chance I get to boss him around anymore ;-) ). I'm not including paint, travel time to pick up the doors/materials, or disposal, but since the bid did not either or charges separately for it, I'm doing my best to compare apples to apples. I wish I could send a couple of pictures to show the work, which might clarify why I was having concerns.
While I would not think of comparing myself to a journeyman, I am not an ameteur either.
Of course, explaining it here and getting another bid are two separate things. If anyone is interested as to how this turns out, I'd be happy to come back and post.
As always, I appreciate everyone's comments.
Tark
YOu probably need to just hang the doors yourself then if your whining about the price.
near top end of range.
Depends on site conditions
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
sometimes removing the old door is a big part .
to remove a door and jamb from a stucco house without damaging the stucco then to install new door and jamb. seal well because you wont be able to flash it properly. fasten the threshold. trim the outside with 1x4 and caulk to make it weather proof .install case moulding to the inside. install the locks. clean up the mess and dispose of the old door . i charge 425 plus all material it does not matter if it is a 1200 dollar mahogany door or a 125 stanly steel cheapy.it is the same labor
Hi Village Handyman,
Yes, a stucco exterior does make things more tricky. I would be more open to the labor costs I have been quoted if the installation left some uncertaintly or risk. This particular installation has an exterior of shiplap siding and 1x6 casing. It is a replacement door for a porch. Porches, as they were, in this building have all their framing exposed from the interior, so there are thankfully not any gotcha's.
Also, this door installations are a rather small part of a much larger work order. I guess I expected that the labor costs would have reflected the on-going work being done. I would not have been concerned with their bid if the doors were the only thing they were bidding on.
Tark
Is it possible you got a "we're too busy for this little job right now but we'll price it high just in case you really want us to do it" quote? That's common and nothing to take offense at.
Since we're doing the math, I put in 2 Stanley prehung metal doors and they took me about 3 hours each, both in nice clean framing. One replaced a previous Stanley prehung, and (get this!) 20 years later all the measurements were still the same. Hallelujah.
Tark,
Look at it from the point of the guy doing the work. You expect it to be done properly, Right?
First the assumption that he'll blow all four out in a day is a stretch. He has to remove the old ones. That might take ten min's or two hours all depends. Then he needs to install the new one in an existing opening he hasn't seen. once again, ten min's or two hours. Four doors in a day equals two hours per. Not likely. And I bet if he rushes and does finish it in one day it will be a long one Like twelve hours.
This guy is playing it smart. I bet it takes two days. For a carpenter and a helper, two days, $1600 isn't so bad at all.
brb,
I appreciate your perspective. I typically like to find middle ground when working with anyone, it makes for more more comfortable experience. I will get another bid, if for no other reason, then for added perspective. In my mind, I considered these doors to be the "low value" and an optional aspect of the overall project, which is considerably more difficult and something I'm happy to hand over to someone else.
Thanks,
Tark
FWIW,
I always get a little nervous when a customer/client starts talking about all the work they got lined up in fromt of em. And you did say that you've used these people b/4. But still...
Hi SCRAPR,
The overall bid for the work to be done is almost $40K. The porch doors were the "optional, but really nice to have" aspect of the job. Mind you, I'm not complaining about any other aspect of this bid, except the $1600 in labor for doors. This contractor would have done better for himself if he had buried the cost where I could not see it. But now that I can, it makes a person start to wonder about the rest of the bid.
I've made no mention or promises for future work.
As always, thanks for adding your comments.
Tark
"I always get a little nervous when a customer/client starts talking about all the work they got lined up in front of them..."
Heh heh...and I get nervous when people start talking about how fast and easy the job is they're asking me to bid on.
My favourite was the guy who wanted an exterior entrance added to his below ground basement. I gave him a rough ballpark figure, which he felt was outrageously excessive. "All you've got to do is dig the hole for the steps down, cut a doorway in the (poured concrete) wall and install the door, which I've already bought!"
You're right. Silly me. Easy as pie. Thank goodness you've already taken care of the difficult part. How about you f***ing well do it, then?
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
I'm a little confused about why the contractor told you "$1600" and then is adding "20% profit and overhead" Why the hell wouldn't he just add it in? And, why would he tell you that?
$1600.00 In my mind is on the high but not unreasonable. Add 20%, hmmmmm, Maybe not.
That price would definatly not fly too well here..
I'm thinkin that there is other issues in the bid picture that maybe he felt he was low on..like had a predetermined amount in his mind for the whole package..and backwards estimated it to come out to his price..the door install looks high because he is picking up the slack from another area..I've done it. Albeit with a little more finess..
Crunchin numbers ain't carpentry..it too is a skill..let him do the work, pay him what y'all agree on..he might be eating it elsewhere and you dont see it.
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Tark,
That price would be high in my area. I get $250 and I mark the door up 40%. But I am curious. Why, if you have worked with this contractor before and are happy, would you not call them and simply ask them if it seems high. I am sure that if it is packaged with a 40k job as you have hinted at that they would revise their number.
Or is it that you bid the doors, the other work and only said you might need the other work? So they wouldn't consider the 40k a sure thing just a carrot trying to get the doors hung at a good price while wasting the estimators time?
Were they as pleased working with you as you say they were I wonder. Oh, what the hell, go ahead and get another quote. As you said relationships are a two way street and this guy certainly has not done his fair share. After all he gave you a price, did good work for you in the past and he surely must know you are unhappy with this situation. He can probably feel it in the air. DanT
In the Ct. area HD gets $400 for each door install. I charge $500 and can't keep up with the demand. Why, because my doors don't leak, are straight and level, inner/outer existing trim all match up, and I'll stand behind my work. Some door installs do take only 2 hours but others can take 8. He's quoting you fair price on the high side, but worth every penny if he's a good reliable businessman.
I think you hit it on the head. Businessman. I bet if this were a different forum, more than a few " handymen" would chime in willing to do it for $200 a door or less. But you get what you pay for don't you?
I would figure two doors per 9 hour day. Might make money, might lose money. But damn sure wouldn't give it away by lowballing this.
Handyman here. Businessman too, first and last. It's taken me as little as 2 hours to change out an interior doo, and as much as 6. Depends on wall thickness, plumb and level difficulties and, oh yes, is it a standard framed door height?
$400.00 is not too much, IMHO.Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
Tark,
Like a lot of guys I struggle daily with what to charge. I always feel like I'm asking too much and then find out it's too little. Because of that I have been coming back to this post to see the outcome. As I read it from top to bottom this time I believe I see the problems.
1. In your mind these are cheap doors. How could they cost $400 a piece to install?
2. They don't add much value to my project. Why are they so expensive to install?
3. I have and might in the future throw this guy a lot of work. Doesn't he get that?
4. I can do this in two hours. Why can't he?
I'm not gonna pick on you. there's been enough of that already. But here's another look at it.
1. Cheap doors aren't any easier to install. Sometimes harder.
2. It doesn't matter what they add to your project they still take the same amount of time.
3. So what. The amount of work you throw him doesn't make this take less time
4. If you can do one in two hours and are confident of that, why would you even ask for a bid on this?
I just recently replaced my own front door. It took me 4 hours from taking the door out of my truck to picking up my tools at the end. Take out the old door, install new one, caulk and install locksets. I started working for my father as a helper at 16. I'm 37 now. with the exception of a few years in the army this is all I've ever done.
By the hour it would cost you $300.00. Thats alone, no helper. So, is $400 a door a little high? I don't get the part about him telling you he was going to charge $400 a door plus P&O at 20%. I think that is a miscommunication you should speak to him about. If you think the price is too high you should ask him why they cost that much. Give him a chance to seel it to you. Maybe you caught him trying to pull a fast one. OR, maybe you missed something. OR maybe you guys aren't talking about the same scope of work. If you have a relationship you should at least let him know what you think.
Hello Everyone,
I did not get a chance to check this post back yesterday, but a resolution was reached that I would like to share with everyone.
The GC, upon hearing from his project manager my concerns regarding the door installation pricing, call yesterday and left me a message. It was an unsoliciated call, as I had indicated to the project mangager that I would need to consider another bid. Needless to say, I was not expecting to hear from the GC.
When we finally spoke, he basically agreed that his door installations price was "mis-aligned" based on the site conditions (the framing is open from the interior and the ro leads itself well for an easy fit) and in consideration of the overall scope of the rest of the project, he offered a revised estimate that is significantly closer to what my expectations are.
Thankfully, this all took place prior to me setting up a meeting with another GC I work with (I don't like wasting anyone's time).
New contract for the whole project (not just the doors) was faxed this morning, and has since been executed with a deposit check in the mail.
I know that there are a few here suggesting that I may have been a PITA. While I'm happy to respect your opinions and bias, I hope you can at least respect a customer's when they bring up what they feel is a legitimate pricing concern.
Again, thank you to all for the varied opinions, including those that choose to email me privately. . .
Best to all,
Tark
"I know that there are a few here suggesting that I may have been a PITA. While I'm happy to respect your opinions and bias, I hope you can at least respect a customer's when they bring up what they feel is a legitimate pricing concern. "
Tark,
I don't think anyone here has a problem dealing with a customers pricing concern. But the manner in which you stated your case you weren't going to tell the company at all, you were just going to get another quote. How would someone possibly deal with a "legitimate pricing concern" if it is not communicated to them? DanT
DanT,
I seems I might have not indicated it, and for that I apologize for any confusion, but I had indicated my concerns to the project manager prior to my original post. It was the project manager's response that lead me to believe I should get another bid
Tark
There have been threads here regarding whether or not to itemize costs on proposals to customers. This situation seems like a great argument against. The GC has given up some money on the job.... hopefully not the shirt off his kid's back.
I charge 450 per door, absolute minimum, and get it. If the contractor runs into problems and the job went into a third day, will you be offering to pay more? I don't think so. I've had several customers like you, they expect every job to become cheaper and cheaper. Go ahead and farm it out, you're doing the contractor a favor. You might even be doing yourself one, but that remains to be seen, doesn't it?
TR,
Please don't confuse me with any customer you have ever had!
To answer you question, Yes I would. Kind of what a Change Order is for, isn't it?
If one of my GC's runs into something that is unexpected that is above and beyond the normal call of duty, we'll discuss it, come to a conclusion, and if that means I pony up more money so be it. I'm not out to gain "free" work. It costs me more in time and effort to develop a relationship with a new contractor than to work things out with one of my current ones. This time around this contractor saw things my way. Next time around things might go the other way.
I manage several buildings, so frankly my GC's know what I'm about and in the case of one GC (not the one refered to in this post) I just tell him my problem and he makes it go away without even bothering to ask for a price or contract. Other GC's like the one refered to in this post I'm hoping we reach a level of trust where we don't run into the issues I described.
The hostility of some of the posters here are a bit annoying. I guess when some of you go out an purchase a new truck, you just pay the sticker price, don't ya. If so, let me know and I'll open a dealership, I'd love to have you as a customer, otherwise go build your own truck.
Tark
I understand where you are coming from and would probably enjoy working with you, and you would probably come to see why I take longer than you to install a door, and you would be glad to pay my rate when it's all said and done.
as for some of the feelings against you, I think things werre warped a bit in this discussion because at first, even though several good reasons were given for the higher rate, you continued to argue against it, as though you were not listening, a classic sign of a diffficult customer. Then you disappeared for a day or so and let that impression snowball.
I'm glad you found a resolution by communicating with him, since you know he does good work. Losing a good craftsman because of a minor miscommunication or small amt of money can easily lead to a painful lesson in who NOT to hire.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
Thank you. I'm not on-line that often, but I have always enjoyed reading your responses over the last several months and learning from your experience. I think we'd get along great.
Tark
I make clear to my customers, if you want the job cheaper, you can easily get it. If you want the job done right, here's the price. I've had several thru the years go elsewhere for less, then call me back for the repair (which I won't do). I have a long list of customers waiting all the time, I play second-fiddle to no one. Your contractor sounds the same. After over 25 years in business some songs just all sound the same. As far as my work trucks, I buy from the same dealer for 20 years now, the one with the best service. No hostility here, just been there-done that. Maybe it pertains to you, maybe it doesn't. If it doesn't, no sense getting annoyed.
Seems just slightly high for average install here in the midwest - not outrageous though.
Tark,
You are estimating 2 hours per door, the consensus here seems to be around 4 hours.
At 2 hours/door the GC's labor cost would be $100/man hour, that's taxes, WC, and probably he figures his nonbilled hours into his labor cost, so his OH will be paid by his billed labor. So he's paying $50 - $60 an hour, maybe less, I don't know his burdens.
At four hours/door his labor cost is $50/hour. Here he would be paying $20 -$30 /hour.
In my experience doors take in the extreme <1 to 24 manhours. Your GC has not seen the doors, correct?
Give him the first chance to negotiate. Ask him to look at the doors and see if he can give you a better guess on the time they should take.
My $.02
SamT
simply sounds like the contractor properly applied the Pita multiplier................
Tark,
It sounds like your contractor is a known quantity. You are happy with his past performance. Yet you are willing to disregard this because a portion of one bid came in higher than what you expected. This tends to really piss off the professionals in this group.
My recommendation to you is that you sit down with the original contractor and ask him how he arrived at $1600 for the 4 doors before you start rebidding the project. Our customers occasionally do this and I am honest and up front with them. They are typically very understanding. Even when I tell some that they are difficult to work with and that I must include this as an additional cost. Usually they already knew it.
One of the things that means the most to us as contractors is customers that are loyal. Relationships are built by sitting down and working these things out. If a customer said to me " I really want you guys to do this work because you did a great job for us several times before. Would you mind looking at this door install number again because it seems a little high ?" I would probably end up lowering the price even if it was tight, just to maintain the relationship.
carpenter in transition
Tark,
If you have done this before, then you must surely own a crow-bar.
STICK IT IN YOUR WALLET, PRY IT OPEN AND PAY THE MAN!!!!
If this is part of a larger bid then he is alotting for unknowns.
There are dozens of problems that could be exposed that could drag this out to a point where he will not make any $$ on those doors.
If he has the talent and experience to do it right then he deserves the $$ and to not have a DIY amateur question his Pricing.
If you take bids on the doors and the rest of the job separately from others then you will NOT be compring "apples to apples".
Mr T
Happiness is a cold wet nose
Life is is never to busy to stop and pet the Doggies!!
Tark,
If you can do quality work re-installing doors at only two hours per, then I suggest that you have found a bright new future for yourself. You can really rack up some good money and become known as the Accu-door man.
I take right about three hours per door for this withnew installs. Add in taking out the old, and I'll be figuring four. It seems obvious to me that you are missing something if you are doing it that fast, or you are missing some time in your memory.
In the same way that you are overestimating your own skills, you are underestimating what is involved in the work a quality installer will do for you. He also has transportation time getting to you while you are already there.
This forum is rife with tales and questions about leaking doors, rotting sills, doors that won't operate correctly, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if those doors were installed in two hours too.
I once worked on a job where a door man would throw in 40 to 60 doors in a day with a helper doing interior doors in a condo.
A third of them got reworked before anyone moved in.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
After reading this thread, I thought I might tell you my story. I have several homes. One in Hawaii, one in Vermont, and a three story penthouse sweet on Park ave. Manhattan. My lear-jet in conjunction with one of the three choppers on continuous standby can have me at one of my homes lickety split on a moments whim. Bill Gates asked me for a loan last week and I told him to go beggin somewhere else. But, at a recent party for me given just because I am who I am. (The theme was Roman orgee.... naturally!) I was asked what one thing in my life I could credit this life of luxury to. The answer after almost no thought at all was that it had to be the time I beat up a guy on the price of installing 4 piece of crap doors.
Call me now or call me later. This isn't a hobby, it's a proffession. I am a one man operation doing an amazing amount of quality work in an impressively short time. I can do this because I have honed my skills through schooling, working for another contractor,(increasing his wealth as I should do) and by making mistakes at my own cost. I support a family of five, pay a mortgage, $12,000.00 a yr. to Oxford health insurance, pay taxes, liability, truck, and god knows what else! Excuse me if we actually make money at our craft but we do so because if it were easy you wouldn't be calling us. You would believe the Home Depot commercials and do it yourself. And don't insult us by saying you could do it in the same time in the same manner with the same degree of perfection. You can't and I'd rather you just save up, hire me, pay me when I'm done, and have a nice day.
Now I'm going to go ask someone else to pay me my asking price to install a 32' length of gutter while standing in his muddy yard, listen to his dog bark non stop all day, and not step on his flowers. Thanks for writing in, JoeG
become known as the Accu-door man.
OUCH!
Other than that I came up with a minimum of 22 and a max of 24 man hours AND all goes well. Hiddens would be extra.
That's from the time of leaving for the job to return home AND all materials on site. Gofors would be extra. To his location, travel and perdium not withstanding.
1600$ isn't enough.Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
2 hours to install an ext door??? It takes me 1/2 hour just to unwrap those doors and throw everything away. And flashing the door.....depends on how fast I can unbutton my trench coat.
Glad to see you guys quoteing about 4 hrs per door, thats in the ball park of what I would guess (+ 2 hours becuase Ill be walking back forth to the truck for things I forgot).
m2akita
Okay 2 hours per door travel included. (4 man hours)
Take what you get and NO warrenty. No complaints entertained either. Use yur own 4 bits to call somebody other than me afterwards....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Tark, I know you feel like a punching bag right about now, but I'm gonna weigh in on another aspect of your problem. When I started, I received more than a few, 'Do my door now and bid on my kitchen afterwards.' So I trimmed the door bid to where I was barely covering expenses, and after four months, discovered another guy, lower bid, doing the kitchen.
Now, you want a door done, it includes all costs involved. Don't expect a price break because you've waved a carrot in his face. Maybe the bigger project was included, I don't know, I only know that if you ask for a bid, expect the bid on that job, don't expect him to bury the costs in the larger project. I've tried that, sometimes it works (when working with prior clients, for example), sometimes not.
FWIW, 4-5 hours on a door with no problem is about right, $400 is more than I charge, but maybe I'll be rethinking that : )
Welcome to Breaktime. Stick around, the guys here have a lot to teach, if you're willing to learn.
Ultimately this boils down to you feel luckier then the "known quantity"
so propose the contractor install the doors at an hourly rate of $75.00 / man hour based on full days only. If 2 guys get 4 doors done in 1 day it costs you $1200. If it takes 2 guys 9 hours you're into day two and the bill goes to $2400. Seems like a sweet deal since you're sure each door won't take more then 2 hours.
Feeling lucky???? Well do you?????
I took out a double door one side fixed 8' tall.
I had to remove the brick overhead ,remove the lintel pull the nails out of the brickmold cut out all caulk,drive the door out of the opening,raise the threshhold an 1.2 so I had to plain down a treated 2x4 to fit.Remove an 1.5 inch out of header. Then reinstalled door used screws to pull door back into plane and shim one side to get equal reveal.
The brick mason will have to reinstall lintel replace brick at top and tearout and replace brick at bottom.
This took 3.5 hrs. by myself And I charged builder 200$ made another 200 trimming garage door in roughcut cedar on same house in the same day.
Did this yesterday!
Sounds to me that he was making up part of his bid on the door install I do that all the time.
It never hurts to get a second bid I recommend that to all my customers just remember you know and trust this guy and you won't know for sure with the other bid.
Also maybe he got beat bad on your prior job and he is trying to get some of it back.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
I know "we" charge between 4-5 a door, occasionaly when things are particularly f-d up it's only on a T&M basis.
Yeah, I've had a couple doors that took three days each to do.
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me and a buddy had a discussion about this at work...
the quantity of un-known is to great when replacing doors... actually we were talking windows, but same thing.
it's not like new construction where you can either see or know exactly what you're going to run into...
At least for me and I'm not the most experienced person out there, replacing ext. windows and doors in older homes is a real PITA, not particularly hard work, just the un-certainty of what you're going to find once you pry the 16 layers of caulk and old trim off to find what's really underneath that mess of crap. people don't replace doors usually just for aesthetics, there's usually a pretty good reason the door is going..
You mean like this one?
The door itself had a loose bottom and some delamination in a panel, but the owner had not even noticed that it needed help. Looked fine from four feet away. I was there at the house for other reasons and noticed it. He said just give me a price for a new door.
My price was for the door, paint, and install with a note that any discovered rot or other structural problems would cost extra.
It took over three grand to get past this bump in the road.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Wow, that looks like the one I just did in two hours, felt so bad that it took so long I gave the customer half his money back. :-) It went fast with the drywall screws.
Edited 4/13/2004 10:13 pm ET by RASCONC
yuck
I hate any and all "exterior repair" jobs.
We had a "simple" re-siding job last summer, take down T111 and replace with hardi panel, had a lot of stuff similiar but not as bad as what's in that picture. and who ever framed this house 20 years ago did not use any know lay-out...
did I mention I hate exterior repair jobs?
btw, is that a toilet in the background of that picture? If it is, is it just sitting there waiting for a home, or did the bathroom have an exterior entrance lol, that'd be a new one on me
Which brings in another good point. Who gets their panties in a knot when the weather screws the schedule?? For cheap any customer should realize they go to the next avaliable day say..hows August look for you???? Cause I'm busy tomorrow putting in cheap doors and the next day and on and on and on...
Everyone thinks this business is easy..... some days it is but some it ain't.
Pay or pass... it's just that easy, cause I got things to do. Getting b!tched at while I work for free is something only done at my own house.
My brother bought a farm house circa 1820's. Had been added on to a few times and was full of "homer side jobs". First floor bedroom had an operating toilet in the closet. Not a walk-in closet or anything like that mind you. But a regular closet about 3' deep and maybe 2'6" wide. Shelf and closet pole were still there too.
Handy for those "rough" nights I guess.
That pole was for the help to get back up..Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
That room did have a unique layout. Full bathroom with door to hall for serving three bedrooms and another door to this outside porch a stones throw from the water ( You can see the atlantic Ocean on a map but we don't have tpo look at a map top see it here.)
The house was a sor of bent angle ranch to follow the shore, with livcing and kitchen in center and this bedroom wing one way with the master suite off to the other end .
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Oh CAG?
I meant to ask,
how do you like doing exterior repair work?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You all sure do a bunch of whining, My bread and butter is from rot.
I bet I do 2-4 houses a month with at least one door and half a dozen windows rotted.
Piffin with that bad azz Makita on the job how can not be extatic about tearing out the rot,killing the ants getting the mold all over your hands then going to lunch and tasting it with your sandwich.Then there are the leftovers from critters everything from squirrel dung to dried up birds to old spider webs to live black widows to cockroaches bigger than ****.
Oh and by the way did I mention snow after easter come on now you know you love it .
ANDYSZ2
I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
Edited 4/13/2004 11:46 pm ET by ANDYSZ2
That's one of the best pictures I've seen that illustrates why you should use really good technique when detailing the flashing, etc around a door install.
You you mind listing the things that were not done that should have been done, or not done correctly in this particular instance...for the edification of us out here that get conflicting information and advice about exterior door install detail?
"...you mind listing the things that were not done that should have been done, or not done correctly in this particular instance..."
Pretty much everything from design, to installation to maintainance
There was tarpaper under the adjacent siding but no caulk at the joit between siding and brickmold. Looked like the door was installed before the tarpaper and siding run into it.
There was no pan or tarpaper under the threashold. The unit was installed directly on the subfloor. Your guess is as good as mine whether any caulk was used there.
Those were the biggest installation sins.
The design was great for walking out directly to the ocean or back in from the boat to the toilet, but it faced square into the winter weather. This was the only door on the whole house that did not have a storm door. Wood door with no weatherstrip. I'm sure a drop or two penetrated there. There was also no gutter or rain diverter on the roof edge above so all the rain that ran off the roof, hit the deck four inches below the threshold and splashed back at it.
There was no flashing between the deck and the siding. The deck was mounted with lag screws from the ledger into the rim joist and separated via some 1" PVC scedule 40 "washers" . After 30 years of traffic, the lags had sagged enough that the "washers" were no longer bound tight into the siding so water could flow in around the lag.
maintainance? What's that? The exterior trim had been redone once every fifteen years whether it needed it or not.
All in all, I am suprised that it held that well after all those years.
The new door is wood too to mach but with a wood storm.screen over it, all stained up to match. I placed a copper flashing under siding and over the deck framing which did happen to be PT. I laid vycor to pan from subfloor out onto it. Use slips to shield sheathing in joint between brickmold and siding. caulked with Geoseal under threshold when setting the door. Caulked same sticking new siding up to bm.
Spray faom in surronding shim space and new interior casing.
Oh yeah, I replaced all that black punky stuff first back in a couple of inches. Used PT.
My next possible project on that house - I told him that the roof has 25 year shingles on it and that they are showing their age. Sent him an estimate and his wife emailed me wondering if it really needed to be done this year. She wants to spend some money on interior decorating.
I wouldn't. It'd be a shame to have rain all over new carpet and paint and fancies.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for the run-down. A veritable primer, sounds like, in door replacement. Just one more question:
"Use slips to shield sheathing in joint between brickmold and siding"
What are "slips"
Slips
leftover terminology from my roofing days. Always had scrap cuts of metal for "slip"ing in to repair knotholes or slipping into flashing spots.
I left most of that siding in place and removed the door and its casing. One of the causes of failure was no tarpaper backing up that joint betqween the siding and the casing/brickmold. I would have had to rely on a dubious job of caulking there. To avoid stepping the cedar shingle siding back, I slipped a scrap of metal into each row of siding like a step flashing except it didn't bend. It just ran out to the edge of the openning. You could do the same with tarpaper.
Since I just "slip" it in, I call it a slip.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks.
Reason I'm asking is that I'm starting a siding job (you may remember from other posts) that will be T-111 over TYPAR covered OSB. Framer has installed the doors already, and there is TYPAR back of the brick mold on the two exterior doors, with all the window head flanges tucked under the slitted TYPAR and red taped, side and bottom flanges red taped as well.
One of the doors is protected by a 2' overhang and 6' porch roof, the other by a just a 2' overhang. The gables have 1' overhang, and all the side walls have the 2' overhang.
Will it be worth my DIY HO time to, before siding, detail all these with vycor all the way around, and the top also with Al head flashing tucked under slitted TYPAR, or is that over-kill. SE MN climate on a hill top.
I would definitely use the flashing at the head. adding vycor down the legs depends on the integrity of the Typar. I have never used Typar, only Tyvek or tarpaper.
Since your brickmold is already there, you would have to remove it to back up that seam. I probably would not unless I had doubts about the Typar shedding water.
when I install siding, I take the time to run a bead of caulk along the joint BEFORE placing the siding to the casing.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Out of curiosity, what was the advantage of slipping a piece of flashing behind every siding course instead of one continuous piece from head to sill? Also, why not a bend at the end of the siding/brickmould junction? I'm into rot and am looking for the best ways to stop it. Don't worry, we can fix that later!
take a piece off the roll seven feet long and you have to fight with about twenty siding laps and nails to get it in under that existing siding an inch, but with scrap slips ( I save them in a bucket) I can easily lap them in onefor each course.
bent flange? The context I'm talking about here is for a replacement. If the metal is under the siding and flanges out onto the brickmold, it would probably trap water and wick it back into the door frame sahim space. I'm talking a retro-install where the tarpaper never wrapped into the framed openning.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm talking replacement too. What I do is goober somePL along all the siding edges, then slide in one piece of flashing under the siding (from header to sill) with a small L bend. Nothing fastens it. Stick the door in, cut all the exterior casing & make sure it fits, run a bead of caulk on the bent flashing, nail the trim up and pull the flashing over tight to the trim. Then caulk the joint at the siding & flashing. It works, but it's still two caulk joints.
I know your conditions are extreme and your remedys will probably work anywhere, but can you give a little more detail 'cause I am extra thick<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Yours works and I'm so thick this late at night that I can't think of a way to gete more detailed verbally. Had I known I'd be writing this as an article, I would have taken more photos of the whole process but I just snapped a few for substanciation to the customer that there was indeed rot that needed repair.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
My way is a pain, though. After sleeping on your step flashing technique, makes a lot of sense, and I'd probably end up with a lot less caulk on myself. Mrs. 'Snort will like that<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
A little sleep opens the door on new thinking for me too.
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The timing for this thread is great, later this week I have to replace a front door in an old plastered house; the pilasters, plinth blocks, cornice all need to be replaced, the wall width is nonstandard due to the plaster, the threshold is shot, and who knows what's beneath it. I scheduled 2 days, and have already milled the woodwork ahead of time. Doesn't help that the concrete landing for the front door is 6 steps up and maybe 4'x6'. Oh, and I can't touch the interior trim. And the siding is - yuck - aluminum.
Now, if it will only stop raining long enough...
I never met a tool I didn't like!
Let us know what you had to do to remove the door without touching the interior trim.
I am trying to figure out how your going to do your jam extensions, maybe to the outside.
I replaced a front door with an arched door and my window and door guy didn't catch the plaster so he had to make me a jam extension for the outside made out of fiberglass they bent it using steam.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
Andy, took off all exterior trim work, found 5/4x4 flat casings underneath, removed them. Cut all nails thru jambs. With door closed, beat mercilessly on door and jambs (with a block of wood and deadblow hammer) until gaps formed between jambs and inner casings. (Use a utility knife to break the paint seal beforehand, but you already knew that...) Gently pry interior woodwork from jambs while working door/jambs out of RO. When interior woodwork is detached from jambs, remove door and pound out jambs/threshold.
Can't take credit for the method, Jeff Buck turned me on to it a year or so ago.
The problem with not touching the interior woodwork is your shimming before installing the door has to be exact, positioning the door with equal reveal on both sides. I use a plumb bob and can get it so the reveal is no more than 1/16" off. The job today was compounded by a lip of plaster on the interior wall extending into the RO that narrowed my wiggle room to about 1/4". I was fortunate that the 50 yo door replaced was only narrower than the new by 1/4".
The extension jambs went on the outside. The door today required two different sets, one a 1/2" extension all around, and after the door was installed, I had to mill a tapered extension for each jamb, as well as a tapered extension for the head jamb.
Not touching the interior woodwork could add to the time required, as it did in this case. But it was cheaper in the long run, as replicating the old stuff was economically unfeasable. The plus side is, you might save time/money fussing with adjusting baseboards, head casings, etc. The interior looks exactly as it did before, only there's a different door in the hole now.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
So did you have to remove the nails off the interior jam and renail after install.
Also all the beating didn't break the plaster is a good day ay.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
When the jambs were gone, I was able to pull the nails thru the back. And the plaster held. Usually the casing holds the plaster together pretty well, kinda like a sandwich. In this case, not a crack.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
I sort of skipped by some of your replies to this post. Just did the same thing yesterday(sort of)
I installed 4 exterior doors. 2x6 framing, with shearwall. Fiberglass half light doors prebored for locksets amd 6 13/16" jambs.
I flash the openingson all four. One opening needed to have the header raised, so I removed a 2x4 filler under the header and replaced it with 2 pieces of 1/2" ply. All of the openings had the shear panel sticking into the rough opening, so that needed to trimmed off. One of the openings had an uneven lip on the concrete, so that was ground off with a diamond cup grinder. All jambs were predrilled and screwed, not nailed. One tube of urethane caulking per opening. Finish locksets were not installed and the interior casing was not cut and installed.
Total time 4 1/2 hours and I haven't set doors in 4-5 years. Includes running cords from the temp power pole. And this was without a helper. To install locksets and cut/install casing would be no more than 1 1/2 hours more. Maybe a half hour more to caulk the casings to the wall and jamb.
Good for you.
You win. We'll see you over are Tark's tomorrow at 7am sharp. We're all very proud of you.
these doors took more than 2 hours...
stripped all paint layers, sanded, primed and added dutchman fillers where the hinge mortises were completely shot..
just two doors for now..more later, made new jambs, stops and thresholds..installing in a one room school house circa 1850, Fri. weather permitting..oh, no power on site..there, and I don't own a genny..so this is all cordless and hand tools..I love it..quiet out in the middle of nowhere..no power in whole valley..I will make it last all day just so I don't have to come back to work on my house for a change!
I'll post the afters when I go out there..looking like new.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Do it yourself and stop trying to tell somone how much they should make for there living.
dogboy
Hello , I just got on the chat room and 2 days ago i was reading about pricing of installing 4 doors. I am a carpenter and a job super for a long time. The point is i see many people who do not do construction for a living seem to think they are the only ownes to make a living . I have been a carpenters helper while going to school and went to trade school and been the carpenters union . What does this count for many years putting my dues in. I was putting a ac sleve through a wall one day at my girl friends brother in laws house on day. And he wanted to get prices for sidding on his house and i will tell you he had 5 people show up. I get very angry with this then when this same person whants to get other work done he has sayed to me i will call a sub on the off season to get a price because he needs the work bad . WHAT A SHAME