I have been triming out houses for 20 plus years now, but always as a general under a total house bid or hourly as a sub. Now someone wants a bid by the foot. I would be happy to do that but have no Idea what the current piece-work rates are. Question : Do you tend to charge a per lineal foot rate for the trim, or a per sq. foot rate for the total sq. footage of the house (if that’s even possible)? and what is the going rate in your area? (Labor cost only)
Or, should I tell them forget it and just continue to charge by the hour.
Thanks, T.B.
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I have friends that trim homes & we talk now and then about this, seems $2.25 to $2.50 a square foot comes up. This is in south eastern Wisconsin. As subs they charge $30.00 to $35.00 an hour, One of them is pushing $40.00 an hour.
Of course the builders seem to get stuck on the $2.00 Sq. ft. number, which I belive has been around for many years.
Hope this helps some.
PJE
Price for labor only in NY( Dutchess county) right now is about $1.15 a sq. ft. to install doors,2 1/4 case and 3 1/2 base, picture frame windows. Sills and aprons add $.10 sq. ft.. Crown and chair up to 3 1/2" and the like are $20. per corner. Any larger trim and/or two or three piece base it goes to $1.40. Rossettes and plinth's add $.10. Curved windows,palladian, columns, larger crowns and such are extra by the scope of work. This is pretty much what we're all getting for new construction. Houses are in the 3000-5000 sq. ft. range. It takes me about 6-9 days to trim a house by myself so it's definately profitable for one man.
Kitchen installation is separate although every builder wants it included, used to do it included but now every house has these elaborate kitchens and you'll take a beating if you don't go by the linear ft.. People say I'm low but I charge $15. per running ft on cab/vanities,feature trim is 25. per corner. I hope this helps.
Edited 11/22/2003 8:47:34 AM ET by jack straw
This thread will be beat to death once Jerrold Hayes and others weigh in. The concensus among that crowd, and I strongly agree, is that square foot pricing for anything, really doesn't work.
Let's say you have been running a business doing exclusively trim carpentry, and have been keeping very good records on production and costs, so that you have established some pretty good units for things. In that case, you might be able to talk about piecework charges, but these aren't costs per square foot. Does it take you about the same time to cut and install six pieces of baseboard in a closet, as it does to do six much longer pieces in the bedroom?
My house has horizontal trim bands in most every room, running around at window and door casing height. Some are scribed to ceilings, where ceilings drop down at room transitions. Small floor height changes here and there mean that base needs to transition to small stairskirt sections. Square foot pricing is meaningless here.
If you don't know your units, and your potential client wants you enough, he should be willing to pay you and your crew your required rates, hourly.
I did some business once with some of the big production builders like Pulte and Lennar, and got to see what life is like, building tracts of 350 to 600 houses, in which there might be a maximum of say, six model choices in a tract, and three "upgrade" levels for interiors. Square footage trimout number might make some sense in that kind of building, but my guess is that is not where you are going.
Yup Mr Micro certainly knows my pet peeve. I just don't want others making the same mistakes that I've made in my career without at least hearing about the alternative methods.
This just came up again the other day here in the General Discussion topic called - trim carpenter's wage. While this time the discussion seems to be pro-Square Foot Estimating that last discussion most of the contributors were pro-Unit Cost. I don't want to offend anyone but was my position then and is still is now and will probably remain so until someone can show me the math that proves how it works otherwise that
I would really suggest you (everybody) read through everyone's opinions there too.
T.B. you said that "Now someone wants a bid by the foot." Yup I hear that and like I said, alarms and sirens go off in my head that that GC (was it a GC?) is looking to beat you on price if he or she is looking for a SF price.
"Question : Do you tend to charge a per lineal foot rate for the trim,..." Yes, or by the piece in the case of doors, lock sets, etc. or by the Square Foot of the surface area being installed for items such such as paneling (but that is not the same thing as a SF Trim estimate for a whole house, not at all). I can't think of a reason why a builder would want you price by the SF if they didn't plan to beat you up on the price or are possibly hiding something that they know you will find if you perform a unit cost estimate.
I just mentioned in another topic here the other day "We had a two projects just over a year ago that were pretty close to each other both on the map and in terms of the square footage of the houses. One was a Georgian Colonial while the other one was sort of Bauhaus inspired. The same square footage the Georgian was over 60% more expensive to finish. " Roughly the same square footage but a 60% difference in the price!
"...or a per sq. foot rate for the total sq. footage of the house (if that's even possible)?" No, its not possible to accurately estimate trim based on the the total sq. footage of the house. (Want to see an example of how the math doesn't work out for SF estimating? Read what I wrote in The Hidden Dangers of Square Foot Estimating."
T.B. I think you know or at least suspect the truth about Square Foot estimating and that's why your asking but I would still suggest you read through that whole other discussion (trim carpenter's wage) to get everyone's broader points of view.
If a builder absolutly insisted on a Square Foot price I would figure each house on an individual basis using a Unit Cost basis and then give that builder a SF cost for each house. One house might be $2.25 a SF, another $3.60 a SF etc etc . And when the builder questions you as to why the prices are differnce for each one of the houses I would say "well each one of them is different. House a had Xhundred feet of trim while house be had Zhundred feet etc." But I would be thinking inside my head "Yeah each one is very different,... Duh! What do you think I am?"
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I rarely, if ever charge by the foot or day for anything.
IMHO it sets an area in building thats unfair and confusing.
In renovation work "nothing" is the same every time around such as crooked walls or unlevel floors.....time for us builders wasted discussing things mid job.
I ALWAYS charge by the job. No one needs to know what I make per hour cause it changes with every instance.
That works for them and me.
If I end up underfiguring then they make out and if cream comes along I make out but over the years I feel it all equals out if you're fair.
Moods...attitudes, what the moon is in that week.....know what I mean?
Figure it out by the job and no one worries about each other!
Also, as its been spoken about here a trillion times...theres a big difference between an estimate and a given price...estimates are a waste of OUR time!
Be a given price
andy
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