Replies

1. 
   Mike_Smith | Feb 06, 2001 05:22am | #1

   *
   planned obsolesence....

1. 
   Keith_C | Feb 06, 2001 02:13pm | #2

   *Someday, providing the original owners are still in those houses, they will thank the builder for not wrapping the house in plastic, thus leading to moisture build-up, and rot in the walls. The kids will be healthier for not breathing the mold and such , and the house will breath better. I've torn into 200 year old farmhouses, and the only rot I could find was on the sills resting on field stone or dirt. I've added onto these new supertights and in 4 years the walls had green crud growing in them, the drywall was damp and limp and the osb was sweaty. I know some will argue that something must have been done wrong, but I think lifestyle has something to do with it also. What is the point on these supertights? Are they really saving money? Is it really that important to save a few bones every month on the gas bill? What is the payback once you put in all the required equipment to get the house to breath just to squeeze out a few more BTU's from the air? How about a little LESS tight. PS. 300k doesn't buy much anymore, that is kind of a starter house anymore, especially in Cleveland. 2 people working, and they will move up to a 5-600k in a few years.

1. 
   Mike_Smith | Feb 06, 2001 03:05pm | #3

   *what we got heeeah... is a failure to communicate..your words of wisdom are describing a symptom...and it ain't caused by making them too tight.. it's a combination of applying the wrong materials in the wrong sequence..you are speaking contrary to a lot of the lessons learned in the '70s and ignoring most of the energy code sections of the building code...b but hey, whadda i no ?

1. 
   Keith_C | Feb 06, 2001 09:51pm | #4

   *Whatever.

1. 
   James_DuHamel | Feb 06, 2001 10:17pm | #5

   *As long as they keep building them like that, I will have lots of work.Job security... yeah, that's the ticket!James

2. 
   HomeBldr_ | Feb 07, 2001 12:40am | #6

   *I wouldn't dream of using vinyl siding without housewrap. Housewraps today do breathe, and is not like having it wrapped in plastic. Since the wrap breathes and we all know the vinyl breathes, wheres the rot problem??? My incurred expense does not go up getting the house to breath. Off the top of my head the only thing we do is add a make-up air duct to the outside. I use Low-E glass, 90% furnace, efficient water heaters and HHI insulation blanket on the poured walls. I get blower door tests and pass with flying colors. I have never needed to add anything extra to get the house to breathe..Steven

3. 
   Matt_G. | Feb 07, 2001 01:01am | #7

   *James:Do you mean keep building them i with or i withoutthe housewrap?

4. 
   Keith_C | Feb 07, 2001 02:04am | #8

   *OK call me a friggin' moron if you want, but what purpose does tyvek(or substitute you own brand) do for a house. My plywood seams all fall on studs, there are no gaps, the windows are sealed, exactly what air infiltration is going to happen that housewrap is going to stop? I caulk the sill to rim joint, the plate to subfloor joint , all joints where 2 studs come together(this is our standard air sealant package) Are we using the tyvek to stop water that gets behind the siding, as a temp. way of keeping water off the walls, or just a a marketing tool to show we use what TOH uses ,cause Tommy and Norm are Gods.(even they admitted it was a waste of money on houses that are plywood sheathed,they see it as a gain only on 1x sheathed houses) Someone show me the errors in my ways. Tell me how this stuff beats my 15# felt?

5. 
   Mike_Smith | Feb 07, 2001 02:17am | #9

   *keith.... i don't think it does......that's why i went back to using 15# felt..always liked felt better .. then i saw some of the tests that said most of the wrap products were junk...but tyvek was the best of the junk .. but not real superior to felt...since you're using felt ... why would i call you a moron.. imbecile maybe... but isn't moron a little harsh ?

6. 
   Jeff_J._Buck | Feb 07, 2001 02:20am | #10

   *Hey....cool....now I don't have to say....that's why you should use felt....to your first post. Jeff

7. 
   Keith_C | Feb 07, 2001 03:36am | #11

   *OK, so now we know we are using it to keep the weather off the sheathing. Now, if we use vinyl, and lap it the 1.5-2", flash the windows and doors correctly, do your J-work by the book and lap it against the prevailing weather direction, how much water and snow is going to get in? And if it gets in, will the wind and air circulation not dry it also? Are we using the felt and tyvek as an added insurance policy for us? Keith C

8. 
   Luka_ | Feb 07, 2001 03:57am | #12

   *Yer a friggin' moron.Well geezzz, you said I could...

9. 
   Keith_C | Feb 07, 2001 04:19am | #13

   *OK Luka, I said you could CALL me one, not that I WAS one. Been tested, way above moron. Card carrying MENSA member even. I have some bear friends. Don't make me call in some markers. I was thinking, maybe you could call Paul Harvey and complain about your Husk-Varna and he could get you comp'd one. He can make things happen, you should try it anyway. Keith C

10. 
    Mike_Smith | Feb 07, 2001 04:28am | #14

    *keith... bet if i checked .. i'd find you under house building.. not boat building..don't you think ...if all you're using is vinyl.. no matter how careful... that you got some chronic leaks..the felt ( fogeddabout the tyvek) is the second line of defense..remember yur infantry training ? defense in depth ?

11. 
    Luka_ | Feb 07, 2001 04:32am | #15

    *LOL I don't think you actualy are a friggin' moron, I just called you one cuz you said I could.

12. 
    Keith_C | Feb 07, 2001 04:45am | #16

    *House building, hell no , anyone can build a house. I'm a HOME builder(notice that warm fuzzy HOME buzz word marketing technique thingy dealy) For the record...I hate vinyl...but I hate not eating more, so I put it on for these yuppy-come-lately types who are going to be history in 5 years. I like brick and stone but few want to pay for it.( I put up paper behind the brick also) OK, so I'm a whore ,and will do what they want for money. I'm ashamed, but I got some really cool toys!

13. 
    Keith_C | Feb 07, 2001 04:47am | #17

    *Bet you'll never see a thread like this in the "Breaktime" column in the printed magazine. Keith C

14. 
    Greg_Warren | Feb 07, 2001 05:16am | #18

    *Keith, When one installs veneer brick over an entire exterior house, even though the brick is one inch away from the sheathing with a 15 lb. felt underlayment, how does the sheathing stay dry when the only air current available are the weep holes? Doesn't the brick vent moisture vapor during wet/snow conditions in that one inch gap between the brick/sheathing to cause rot?

15. 
    James_DuHamel | Feb 07, 2001 06:07am | #19

    *Matt,What I have found in my line of work is it really doesn't matter if the builder (well, a lot more builders than people care to admit, anyway) used housewrap, felt paper, or nothing at all. Where I see all the major damage, water penetration, rot, etc... is in the actual quality of the building practices. The quality is very poor, to say the least. Gaps, incorrect installation of any number of materials, wrong types of fasteners, improper use of caulks and sealants, improperly installed exterior doors and windows, etc... cause a tremendous amount of damage to a home in short order.To give you an example - I see (a whole lot actually) new houses that have rotten siding, rotten window framing, rotten exterior door jambs/framing, rotten fascia, rotten eaves, etc... after a short period of time (most times less than 2 years, sometimes less than 1) These kinds of problems tell me right off that the builder did a piss poor job of construction in the first place. If these areas had been built and sealed correctly, these problems wouldn't exist. I honestly feel that the majority of water vapor movement and entrapment in the walls is due to poor planning and poor construction. If the products used in the construction (i.e. housewrap) were installed correctly, and all the variables of a working house taken into consideration, the problems we see so often would not be present. An entire house works together as a system. If you do not plan and design accordingly, then the system winds up fighting itself, and problems that we see so often will manifest themselves. We hear a lot about black mold in walls of homes. If the homes had been sealed properly, and the water penetration not allowed to happen, then we wouldn't be hearing about black mold. My next door neighbor tore all of the siding off of his house several years ago. He replaced a lot of wall studs and windows. When he installed the felt paper on the exterior studs, he did it correctly. He literally sealed his home weathertight. For 5 years he left it like this, with no water penetration, no moisture in the walls, no problems at all. Now he has siding on the house, and he still doesn't have any problems. He doesn't have problems because he installed the felt paper correctly, flashed the windows and doors correctly, and sealed the exterior from the weather and water penetration.If builders would do things correctly (most do), then I would be out of work. I make a good living repairing their blunders. I could go on and on about this, but I'll shut up about it now.James DuHamel

16. 
    L._Siders | Feb 07, 2001 06:24am | #20

    *No job security for me... Bad building practices going on now won't help me.. I turned 61 last Sunday.. Can I pass the hat around to all ya guys? Also let me know where your secret fishn holes are while yer at it.

17. 
    Matt_G. | Feb 07, 2001 02:55pm | #21

    *Thanks James,Just wanted to get a clearer picture of where you stand. I think we are all pretty much on the same page here. Some of us like housewrap, some like felt, but we all agree that all homes require proper weatherproofing including the detailing, and in particular in the case of vinyl siding and engineered sheathing products (plywood & especially OSB).BTW is this deja vu (sp?) or haven't we discussed this about 5 times before? The movie is getting kinda boring, wake me up when it's over.

18. 
    gary_weiss | Feb 08, 2001 03:50am | #22

    *didn't realize I'd cause quite a stir with this one

19. 
    Wes_S. | Feb 08, 2001 04:27am | #23

    *James, YES!!& I don't mean the shutting up part.I see fecal matter going up everywhere but don't let it influence my practices.I merely inform myself.

20. 
    Mike_Smith | Feb 09, 2001 03:10am | #24

    *luka.... yikes.. ya caught me plagiarizing.... i might as well drop out...

21. 
    Luka_ | Feb 09, 2001 03:25am | #25

    *LOLI didn't think yer were plaguerizin' I thot yer were quotin'...

2. 
   gary_weiss | Feb 09, 2001 03:25am | #26

   *
   Was wondering what you guys thought of building a house with absolutley no
   housewrap whatsoever. I live here in Cleveland, ohio, and am amazed that
   I see builders putting vinyl siding right over osb. All the windows seem
   flashed pretty well, but no type of wrap. Mind you these are 300k houses, and the buyers think they're getting top quality everything. I could give you the name of the builder, but....Pete Draganic could probably figure out
   which one I'm talking about. What do you guys think??