My employer is having the buildings exterior repainted. The crew is working off ladder jacks and pics up to about 20′. Yesterday someone took a dive and from what I hear got hurt pretty bad.
Isn’t fall protection required and specifically, up to what height is work allowed without any protection?
I’ve upped my standards…now up yours
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Replies
In some cases railings can substitute for harnesses. Have no idea what those cases are, specifically.
No railings are being used.
I've upped my standards...now up yours
Where I live, personal fall protection equipment - a harness, lanyard, rope and anchor, usually - is required when you are over 10' from the ground unless there is a physical barrier preventing a fall.
Considering the buildings location...corner lot at a major intersection, with alot of traffic...and high visability, I would have thought some type of protection would have been a minimum.
I'm just amazed that nothing was used at all. Just ladder jacks and pics and this painting crew is a well known Co. too. No sight of them today, so can't ask how the worker is doing...just alot of grapevine talk about what happened.
I know all to well about safety now...a number of you gents got on my case in the past with my pump jack setup. NOW I know better ;) I've upped my standards...now up yours
from my experience there are either strictly enforced regs or none at all. i don't know how many jobs i've been on where we've been on a forty foot extension ladder fully extended with nothing , pump jacks without backs, hanging cleats instead of roofing brackets and the list goes on.
this past week was the first time i've had to wear a harness. what a PITA. i feel half as safe although i know that's not the case.
as far as i know fall protection is required period though mostly only really enforced on large jobs or when someone gets hurt.
so i'd say 20' up+ no fall protection+ a busted up carpenter= screwed contractor:(
I'd do a 40'r without being tied off before I'd use ladder jacks & a pic again. Used them once and didn't feel comfortable so I returned them I've upped my standards...now up yours
here it's both 4' off the ground or more..Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
The special trouble with 4 - 6 ft. from the ground is that FP is pretty much useless if you hit the ground before you take up the slack. It can be safer to be a couple hundred feet up, though it sure doesn't feel like it.
-- J.S.
not surprised
Where your at you'd need FP just to stroll around the yard. <g>
Probably when you check the mail too :0) I've upped my standards...now up yours
ROAR!!!!Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Fall protection is required at 8' above grade, I THINK.
That being said, I see siders especially, trooping around on ladder jacks all the time with no guard rails or any other form of fall protection. Of course some of the planks used look like HD rejects also (scaffold rated??? whazat?).
I think our local authorities turn a blind eye to the situation until something nasty happens. I'm sure the PI lawyers know.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
From a practical standpoint, one wonders how much good fall protection would do when using ladder jacks. Apt to just pull the ladders down on top of you.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Actually, the rope has to be tied off to the roof , and then ya swing into the building, like a pendulum...thwaaaappp!
I've seen the guys climbing around with the harness just clipped back to their waist. They can honestly answer "yes" when their boss on the phone asks "Are you guys wearing your harnesses?"
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Guilty as charged. I have the Miller revolution that was 400 bucks, and I wear it as little as possible, but it is cheaper than a wheelchair for life, or a 20K OSHA fine.
I was working in the Dupont Plant near Richmond Va about 5 yrs ago. They made Kevlar and something else in this part.
Fall protection was a major PITA. If over 4' you had to have a harness with 2 straps, all ladders tied off. Step ladder, ext ladder it did not matter.
The worst part was we were constantly moving.
All extension cords had to be over head and tied. So imagine going up an 8' step ladder tying yourself off with 2 straps, tiying your ladder off, the tying your extension cord to whatever was deemed safe. Repeat in reverse, move 6' and start over.
But they did have one of those signs with so many accident free days. It was something like 3 or 4 yrs if I remember right.
John
DuPont is a very special case. They've had a two belts and two suspenders safety culture for decades, maybe even over a century. It comes from their beginnings having been in the explosives business.
-- J.S.
John:
That "major PITA" sent a lot of guys walking home that night to kiss their kids goodnight that wouldn't have otherwise. But you never know about them.
Kowboy
kowbow,
Only serious injury I ever had happen on a jobsite was a sub falling off a roof .
3 story roof.
He now has titanium cheekbones. He ignored every OSHA fall protection rule there was."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
I am not saying I don't agree with afety issues, just that some things i think are overboard.
I can understand not having extension cords on the floor, but when it takes longer to tye off myself twice, plus a ladder. Then the PITA factor applies.
Kind of the same as the plumber, vent pipe mentioned earlier here.
I have nothing against doing things safely but where is the common sense in some of this?
John
I have a good one for you,I was working in an office remodel for
BP Amoco...the space was wide open, no ceiling grid , no new walls...of course the Safety Dept from BP decided to enforce the SAME rules they use at the refineries......the usual stuff
hard hat , glasses, no t-shirts, long sleeve only,..... no beards
full face shields for drilling overhead, hearing protection,
fire extinguishers every 20' , eyewash stations, , approved respirators for everybody, NO smoking, No radios and........steel toed boots.....they actually relented on needing the full metatarsal style though. and lets not forget....Fall Protection ...that was just to be able to work.the ladder restrictions were a effin masterpiece of lunacy, to begin with
you always had to place a safety cone next to the foot of every ladder from day one
then after the grid was up, if your head broke the plane of the grid....you additionally needed a safety man on the ground AND caution tape around you and the ladder and the safety cone to ensure nobody accidently ran into you while you were WAAAAAY up there on an 8 foot ladder........remember, no tile in the grid yet !so you couldn't move without making a mistake and then getting writtten up...
so whenever the safety geeks would come around ,guys would just stop working
after tthe tile was in....it got reallly crazy....
because now on top of all the other junk. a PERMIT was now needed to open the ceiling back up,
the ground man had to have a fire extinguisher next to him but before any one could be the ground guy we ALL had to go watch a movie on how to use the extinguisheroh yeah the Fall Protection thing.....it posed a real headache for those BP guysthe problem ?..everyone knew you could not be sure that a concrete anchor would hold 5000# so the BP geniuses told everyone to tie off to the hold on,wait a second,.....the sprinkler system....yep that's right..the fire sprinklers..in an occupied building no less.pretty G'dam smart those guys huh?
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Who protects the guy that has to climb up to the top of the roof to attach the rope?
That is a BIG issue.
For example....a plumber needs to do a vent stack plug ( some do go up on the roof) and it is a 2 minute job, say 10' from the eave. No big deal right?
OSHA wants him tied off, so a trip to the top to anchor off ( he is un harnessed for that)...then he ties off, does his hole or boot or test plug...then back up, to remove the roof anchor, and get back down the roof again, un tethered.
twice as much exposure to fall, plus tripping over a tether line.
I've heard em bitch about it on our jobs, and I often find test plugs STILL in houses that have been completed and occupied for years..LOL.
It's not so much "...thwaaaappp!" hitting the building, it's getting rubbed against it. Especially with stucco, like a cheese grater.
-- J.S.
As others have now posted, it is supposed to be anchored overhead to the roof - not to the ladders.
The unanswered question of course is - How did the harness ropes get anchored in the first place?
Catch 22 - can only go X feet above grade without fall protection anchored above you. I guess you could do it with a boom lift.
Jim
Never understimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
we still need harnesses inside baskets of boom lifts.....
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I understand that part - FP harness anchors to the boom lift - no problem.
My Catch 22 question was: Assuming there is not a boom lift available, how does one legally anchor the end of the rope which attaches to your harness? Work would be performed from ladders, ladder jacks, pump jacks with no rails, etc.
By definition the anchor point must be overhead, therefore going higher without FP is in itself a violation of regulations.
Jim
Never undestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I just got fined by OR-OSHA and during the the interogation i asked the exact question you proposed
her answer was to pull out a phamplet that shows exactly how to do it on NEW construction. You frame the first (6) sections of gable end and trusses w/fascia and sheathing with the tye off point firmly installed at the peek, w/your rope draoed to your chosen position--- ON the ground and then have a crane set it in place.
This gives a tye off point without having to go up and install it.
I laughed and asked her on how many residential sites she has seen this done? no straight anwer.
I then asked her how do you REMOVE the tye off point and still comply? no straight awnswer. But get this!! they are talking about making it the law that the general contractor must install permanant tye offs at every section of roof. Hows that for liability?
Speaking of liability i ask her, who gets to set the first anchor? The framers right? what happens when the roofers show up to the job site and need to tye off? does the framers leave the tye off and there rope there for the roofers ? what about the masons and anybody else?
when i'm done with MY safety equipment it goes home with me.
Now mind you fellers that im all about safety in a sensible way but some of there rules just dont add up to me.
Where about ready to build a small single story house, the tops of the walls measuered from the outside- top plate to ground is less than 10 feet, so when we set trusses we can walk the plates and still be compliant!
but because the inside measurement from floor to top plate is more than 6' we become Non- compliant!!
Whats the friggen deal w/that 10' max outside fall highth--- 6' max interior fall hight.
Just doesnt add up to me. sorry i can go on and on about these rules.
If you cant tell my anger from this is gettin to me abit. LOL
I believe you can recieve a phamplet for free from OR-OSHA's web site that describes how to set your tye off point as described in my last post.
What gets me is the house we where framing is way out from town, just me and my (1) employee, OSHA drives by twice then parks across the street , the second time i saw them i knew exactly who it was and we quickly called brake. they came over introduced themselves and while she started throwing question down my throte he goes over and measures the first floor end wall of the garage, above that is a bonus room (above the garage) that we had just gotten done laying the plywood floor in.
The end wall in the truss had not been built yet, and we failed to have a gaurd rail in place.
10' max fall hight to the exterior of the building- we where 10'4".=fine
now this is my first violation so the fine was very little, but it just irks me.
the carpenters install the tie-offs and scaffolding then it is checked and tagged for use ..green, yellow, and red tags are dated...even inside scaffolding with rails and toe kicks or lifts the whole procedure can be a royal PITA sometimes but those are the rules and the customers and the shop safety folks don't play games ..any other time we would carry those huge carabiners or a very expensive beam clamp and install it then tie-off and go to work....that's the way it used to be as of June 1st
we must carry two lanyards and while we are moving around ONE of them has to be anchored until you start working kinda like playing on the monkey bars
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green, yellow, and red tags are dated
I'm guessing
green...go?
yellow...caution?
red...no go? I've upped my standards...now up yours
yep, typically a red tag is for anything,
under construction
or is being dismantled........
if it has been damaged then
DANGER tape is all over the thing..yellow tag is a complete scaffold that has NOT been inspected and only authorized folks.....the carpenters.... are allowed on it..Green is....well you know.
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., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
around here FP starts at six feet
don't wear it and you will get FIRED and there are NO warnings or reminders
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, wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
Anything over 6' requires fall protection. Unless there is a railing.
Check out this link. http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10756
The freaking language is ridiculous, and it's no wonder nobody knows what the hell is going on.
It's not too late, it's never too late.
Thanks for the link...useful info I've upped my standards...now up yours
from what i was told by the OSHA was that ladder jacks were pretty much out now, maybe if they were tied in with full harness from above, i had a job and set up OSHA inspected pump jacks, Toe boards back boards side boards you could have had a UFC match and no one could have fallen off, He stopped by and wanted to ticket me cause the harness needed to be put on when one was by, I cant do this anymore the ladder
I didn't read all of the link dustinf posted, but are ladderjacks prohibited by OSHA now?
edited...to correct who posted the link
I've upped my standards...now up yours
Edited 7/6/2007 3:55 pm ET by caveman
Up here, ladder jacks are illegal, fall arrest is required above 8' and your story sounds bad. Work safe and stay alive.
> If you didn't have time to do it right the first time, how come you've got time to do it over again?I've never known anyone to give you time to do it over again. Always pushed to get it done in a hurry, and pushed twice as hard to fix mistakes fast.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I've never known anyone to give you time to do it over again. Always pushed to get it done in a hurry, and pushed twice as hard to fix mistakes fast.
Well said...couldn't agree more. and this applies to more than just the building trades I've upped my standards...now up yours
Yeah, most of my experience is in bit-twiddling. It seems to be universal.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
What really amazes me is why are these jacks still available let alone still being used on commercial jobs? I can understand a Joe homeowner like myself wanting to save a $ and take the chance. But for a professional crew to be using them without any safety equip shows me that OSHA doesn't enforce to much around here.
On a related note...I pass a job site everyday that they are building a new hotel. The roof is about 60-70'(?) up...about 5 or 6 stories. They just finished putting the roof deck on and I've seen several guys strolling around with what appears to be NO HARNESS!! I mean these guys are walking right down next to the eave and I don't see anything...rope, harness, railing, NOTHING!
GULP! they gotta have brass ..... I've upped my standards...now up yours
GULP! they gotta have brass .....
brains.View Image
ROAR!
no doubt I've upped my standards...now up yours
I gather that there is an exemption when working on a flat roof, etc, where no harnesses are required if work doesn't require being right on the edge and if someone is appointed as full-time "guardian" with no other responsibilities than to watch everyone and make sure no one gets too close to the edge.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
There are also exemptions for iron workers & rod busters under certain conditions."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Guess what? Flat roof or no, ya need a harness. Just ask Grant about our Latin guys and OSHA.
Well, I will tell ya..lol.
Almost dead flat roof with a parapet wall. The parapet MUST be 42" IIRC to avoid a tie off, well this one had a stepped parapet, and a very low pitch, maybe 1/12..BUT at one point where the parapet stepped down it was less than the 42" to the roof.
OSHID got em. IIRC it was 14K fine, but Grant got it reduced, by some gentle conversation with the PTB.
We ALL have hard hats, harness's, and safty glasses with us at all times, steel toe boots are not required...The last job I had to wear a hard hat on was a joke..we were up on the dormers, NOTHING except meteors coulda hit my head. And it was so windy, we spent all the day chasing flying hard hats.
I'm just reporting based on my observations here, where they're real sticklers for following OSHA rules. Six-eight guys on the roof, one quite clearly a "lookout", the others without harnesses. (And, no, I don't think he was a lookout for the OSHA guy -- if I could see what was going on from the next building so could anyone else.)
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin