I am going to retire some old HEAVY wooden ladders I have been using for a long time. I think I want to buy four new ones. Two 16 footers and two 24 footers. I do general home repair including roofing and siding. Thus I work from a plank quite often. What do you folks suggest as to brand and supplier for my replacements? I want to go with fiberglass. I have had some alum. ladders in the past and just did not like them for many reasons. Sooooo………what do you think? Thanks for your time. Mike L.
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Replies
I guess that if you are used to heavy wood ladders glass would not be a shock. I have a Werner 24' alum and love it. I would rather use it than an 18' glass one I have. I have a cheap Wal-mart version FIL gave me that I like, it is the kind with the fixed hooks to lock the rungs in when you extend it instead of the usual swinging hooks. It is very light, quick and does fine for me. I work alone and no employees. Probably need heavy stuff if doing roofing.
I would expect most here to be familiar with Werner.
I like Lynn ladders. 1A fiberglass. But I've also got no complaints with the 24' and 16' fiberglass 1A Werners I have either. They're..... well.... they're ladders. They get me up where I need to be and stand up pretty good to jobsite abuse. No complaints.
I like your RS logo but this time of year I would expect some Pats signage
I saw 24' Kellers fiberglass ladders in Sams Club for around 180.00. There as good as the rest and that's a great price.
Headstong, I'll take on anyone!
We have four Werner ladders, two aluminum extension, 40' and a 38' (yes seems 38' is an odd size but that's what it is). We also have a Keller 24' extension ladder that we bought at Sam's. Its a good heavy ladder and we've beat it to death and it still is fine. Have a 12' Werner step ladder and a 12' Keller step ladder. I can tell you that the Keller is not made as well as the Werner. It is ok, but it just isn't as well put together. The cross braces don't lock in place as well as the werner and the fiberglass is lighter and the rivets aren't as large or strong.We picked up a "gorilla" 8 footer to replace our old wobbling wooden one when it fell out on me one day on a quick trip to HD. I didn't give a hoot what it was, but I wasn't going to climb on old "rickety" again. Its been pretty sturdy so far and light as well.We also have one Werner 24' aluminum ext. ladder. Its ok.
We have a wooden 12' and my partner keeps me from taking the saw to old rickety, so we still have that too. I don't trust wooden ladders anymore.Look at the weight rating on the ladder. It will be on a sticker on the side. That is your key to what you will pay and what you are paying for. OSHA demands fiberglass ladders last I knew, so that's what I try to stick to for future purchases.
Edited 1/2/2006 12:59 am ET by girlbuilder
Might I add that the Keller extension ladder is fiberglass as is the step ladder, but the thickness and quality of the two is worlds apart.
Go with Werner. Stay away from Keller if you are doing serious work as opposed to part time. Keller ladders are junk. There is a reason they are cheap. Got rid of the ones I had and try to buy Werner whenever possible. Have also had good luck with the 18 foot Stanleys from Walmart. Good Luck.
Another vote for Werner. I have 6 of their ladders (three extensions, three steps, and a 12' stage) . No problems at all.
Actually, I think Keller is a sub-brand of werner. Pretty sure I saw the Werner name somewhere on the Sam's club ladders.JT
I have both Werner and Keller 8' ladders and have compared them side by side including the thickness of the FG. Ican't tell the difference and their is a sticker on the Keller made by Werner.
I like Louisville Ladders. The fiber glass 32 footer is HEAVY!!! However, it has served me well, as have the Louisville 16 footers and the 10 foot step ladders I've got.
rooferman,
DEFINITELY---get the fiberglass.-----weight is not an issue---but safety and peace of mind is.
I am useing a 24ft. Werner, a 32 ft. Werner, and a 28ft. offbrand---maybe Cuprum?
also 3 stepladders, cuprum, davidson,husky
all the ladders are either typeI or type IA and I would have no hesitation in recommending or useing ANY of 'em----with the exception of the type I Davidson 8 ft. step ladder which is a piece of junk---the feet have never set properly
Instead of getting 2 16 fts and 2 24 frs at least consider a different assortment like a 16,24,28 and 32------------- that gives you a LOT more versatility and you can usually still pair-em to run a pic plank just fine. As long as they are type IA, brand should not be too big a consideration---------and if you buy all 4 at the same time from the same supplier you may swing a deal.
But definitely ,DEFINITELY go with the fiberglass--------- If fiberglass ladders were not available now I would STILL prefer wood over aluminum as I started out on wood and will NOT use aluminum.
As far as suppliers---too many to mention---but if you are anywhere near ohio---consider Ladders Unlimmited in cleveland----- I have bought from them several times and always been happy.
Stephen
Aside from electrical conductivity, why are you so adamant about fiberglass vs. aluminum?If they carry the same rating, aren't the two equally strong, sturdy, etc.?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nikkiwood,
1) If you think about it------ the electrical consideration is enough all on it's own----don't ya think?----case closed.
2) aluminum ladders are VERY slippery at the intersection of the side rails and house/gutter/fascia etc.-------- even if you are planning to tie the ladder off----- you still have to climb up it 1st.
3) fiberglass behaves in a comfortable, predictable, flexible fashion--------- much like a quality wood ladder----------- aluminum ,on the other hand--is rigid and tends to move in sudden, unexpected, jerky little, terrifying motions
4) fiberglass is much, MUCH quieter---on the house---on the truck etc.------a truck with a stack of aluminum ladders sounds horrible----- have a little consideration for the neighbors!
RE: weight--------- frankly, I would be embarrassed to even bring this up--------If the negligible weight difference between a fiberglass ladder and an aluminum one is too much to handle-----well to be kind---- maybe another line of work is in order?
RE: Cost----- I would be embarrassed to bring this up as well------ at what price safety?
cost difference is absurdly small----and spread out over the life of the ladder---virtually non--existant.
RE: UV rays------ a consideration with some SMALL basis in fact
how long do you expect a ladder to last anyhow?
My 28 ft has got to be 12 years old at least-------it's faded a little pinkish--- but still virtually perfect-------- remember---these things are supposed to be used----and like any ladder---inspected with some degree of regularity.
I would guess the chance of a fiberglass ladder failing due to uv damage to be the same or less than the chance of aluminum failing due to " metal fatigue"
I was really kind of suprised to see people here mentioning really trivial objections to fiberglass---------- then I noticed that most of 'em objecting------ don't really use extension ladders much anyhow----------------------- so who cares what they think ? LOL!
just about the first thing I do every work day is set up an extension ladder-----you can be damn sure it's gonna be the BEST freaking extension ladder I can get my hands on
I am willing to bet the original poster( Rooferman ?)---sees things the same way.
buy the fiberglass!
Best wishes all,
Stephen
i've always used Lynn and Werner ladders.
My impression is that the FG will last longer - less racking or twisting or loosening rung joints.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I'm inclined to say that AL will last longer than FG.I used to buy only FG extension ladders but I had some problems with a 24' Werner warping on me. I have also read that FG will deteriorate from exposure to UV rays.Now I have converted to AL for extension. They seem lighter and the just as strong. And cheaper. Just my off the cuff appraisal.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
You could be right. Just my subjective opinion. The AL are lighter and cheaper. The FG is more safe around power lines.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks to all for your opinions. A couple more questions............... I have always had my ladders in pairs according to length. Interesting point about buying multiple lengths and doing a mix and match thing. Anyone else doing that? How about alum. vs. fiberglass? Around here (Ohio) I see fiberglass on jobsites almost exclusively. Maybe if I go with alum nobody will steal them!! Thoughts?
Mike L.
I have some fiberglass extension ladders,but by far more alum. ones.
The glass ones are great around electric lines,but overall I prefer alum. for several reasons.Like Jon mentioned UV rays are harmful over time to glass.They also take more abuse from loading and unloading from your rack when used constantly as I do.You must use more care in handling them in this way.
When fully extended the glass ones I have which are 1A show more deflection than 1A alum.
I use mostly Werner with some Louisville as well.I like the way the Werners ride on each other -the fly section over the base.I lile the dogging action better as well-the Louisvilles always seem to need some titrivation to work well.
As far as I know the junkyards don't pay money for scrap fiberglass!
Edited 1/1/2006 8:11 pm ET by theslateman
Not exactly what the OP wanted, but I was recently at my parents' house and they needed a ladder, so I bought the Werner folding unit. I forget the name, but it's the one that has one pair of knuckles like a Little Giant but then extension legs instead of the folding legs.If I only had one ladder, I think this is what I'd get -- not too heavy, but the longer unit (there are two sizes) can extend up to about 16 feet (which is to say equivalent to about an 18-foot extension ladder). Folded in half it's a nice stepladder. The extension feet can be removed and used with fixed knuckles for a second stepladder (with the other unit) as scaffold support.In fact, I probably will get one of these, and ditch a couple of other ladders I have.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
rooferman---------where in ohio are you located?
you are not fishing in my pond are ya LOL
Stephen
Yeah, I was going to mention that as well.I kinda figure that because I know the AL is a great conductor it forces me to take the necessary precautions to protect myself and my crew.Of course, you can easily disagree with my logic that a safer alternative (FG) around power would always be better, but I wonder if I would be tempted to do more risky stuff since I have the "security" of the FG ladder.As to the durability, have you had problems with good quality AL ladders getting "loose"? I mentioned my bum Werner FG experience but I can't say that I've been dealing with ladders for 30 years either.I must admit that FG ladders seem to look more professional, at least in my opinion.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon---- that's such bad logic !!!!!!!
you are going to intentionally use an obviously more dangerous item----because you THINK it will make you safer?????????
cmon jon--- I KNOW you are WAAAAYYYYY smarter than that.
Stephen
Maybe it is bad logic, or maybe that illustrates how bad your logic can be when in the thick of a job that is potentially dangerous.If I had to choose between eliminating the grounding path or eliminating the contact with the conductor I will choose the latter every time. If I know we will have work around the service drop then I prefer to call the power company and have them either protect or remove the conductors in question.A FG ladder is not 100% safe, it just elminates some of the risk. You still have to worry about grounding yourself to the house, dirt or moisture on the ladder forming a ground path, or jumping between the hot and neutral. I'm reluctant because I know my personality would be to take more risks since I have FG.To be honest, we don't often run into overhead power in this area. A nice benefit but also a drawback in that a lot more hand digging is required when we're excavating.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
that's perfectly fair Jon---no problem with that
however---there is absolutely NOTHING that prevents me from taking the same safety precautions as you---in conjunction with use of the fiberglass ladder.
Here---- overhead wires would be the rule----almost EVERY job will have them----- and I would still use the fiberglass ladder even if I NEVER encountered an overhead wire.
best wishes, Stephen
werner aluminum black tip's ....
fiberglass breaks down with uv rays ... and mine usually ride around on top of the van ...
for me ... usually working alone ... a big part of ladder safety is safely moving them ladders around. I'd be tempted to hang off the side of a poorly placed heavy fiberglass ladder than get down and move it yet one more time ...
with a good aluminum ... just climb down and move it to a better location.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
How does this fg breakdown show up? I've got a Werner 32 (36'?) footer that's over 20 years old and doing fine.
You like the aluminum for the ease of movement. That's my beef with it. It seems like the wind blows and you're straightening the ladder. Put the fg where it belongs and it stays put until you move it. Get up on a roof and at least you know the thing is going to be there when you get back.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Edit - Never mind the breakdown signs. I must have missed the earlier post. DK
Edited 1/2/2006 6:42 pm ET by DonK
Stephen,
And some of us with objections work year round with our ladders,so should we also have our objections discounted arbitrarily.
Walter
Walter,
calm down
you are assuming an attitude on my part that just doesn't exist in this issue
Read carefully------- you will see that I was carefull to phrase things specifically NOT to lump you in with some of the others------------
personally------ on the basis of dailey use alone---- I would value your input on this topic MUCH more than the opinion of infrequent ladder users
however----------- since I now use fiberglass exclusively
and I have yet to encounter any significant examples in real life of the theoretical drawbacks you object to---------
then YES--- I will discount your objections--- but not arbitrarily
useing the fiberglass now exclusively---- it's obvious REAL benefits, far.Far, FAR outweigh the few, theoretical---and comparitively minor drawbacks you are concerned about.
your objections might be real----- but in my opinion they are overwelmingly outweighed by fiberglass' positive attributes in this application.
you are of course, entitled to make your business and safety decisions for yourself
and both of our opportunities to do so are part of why we aren't punching a clock for someone else -----isn't it ?
Best wishes, Stephen
If roofing and planks are in your future, then I would not buy anything but a type 1A or 1AA ladder (red fiberglass).
Type 1 ladders (yellow fiberglass) would probably be OK if you just went up the ladder without supplies or didn't use planks- no way I would take myself and a bundle up a yellow ladder regularly or use planks on one.
Next requirement would be American made- that leaves out the HD Chinese made Gorilla crap.
I have found fiberglass to be heavier than aluminum and lighter than wood. Some roofers have had some nifty really heavy duty aluminum extension ladders that are also a tad wider than what is found at the box stores. Those were probably sourced from a commercial ladder supplier.
I do not find 16' or 24' ladders to be partiularly heavy.
Exposure to UV does damage a fiberglass ladder. If the sides are rough and fibers are flaking off, it is time for a new one. Unlike aluminum, composite materials like fiberglass fail catastrophically- it will not bend and give a few seconds of warning.
If the fiberglass ladders hang off the ladder rack a ways, the bouncing can damage them. Always look at the inside corner that sits on the rack for damage before you use it.
A fiberglass ladder can twist just like an aluminum one if it falls just right. Then it is junk.
If you engrave your name in the side of a fiberglass ladder, it is junk and subject to a fine from OSHA.
My 24 footers are yellow Louisvilles from HD. I got a smoking deal on them- 50% off, so I couldn't pass it up. I needed extension ladders, but I do not use them every day, so I bought them instead of the super heavy duty red ones. They are stored indoors.
My latest issue of a roofing publication had a good article on ladder innovations,some new ideas for more function from the age old units.
two items made by http://www.ladderinnovations.com one a pass thru attachment to the top of the ladder that gives you something to hold on to as you get off the top-instead of having to step around it.Another is a clever dolly to use to carry ladders while on site.
One other excellent looking item by http://www.stabiladder.com is a new and improved leg leveling device which doesn't require bolting to the leg but looks really rugged and strong.
Has anyone used any of these items?
I'm ordering the pass thru unit-looks perfect for exiting a ladder onto a tower of scaffolding.
Regarding the walk through, OSHA regulations require 3 rungs above the wall, right?
This item takes the place of three rungs and gives you open space to pass thru ,making it actually safer than stepping around the ladder in a conventional set up.
The three rungs above is to provide a hand hold which this device does nicely.
Check it out.
I'll report back after I've used it.
danski0224,
I was not aware that there was a better grade of ladder than the type IA
Next ladder I buy will be a type IAA-----probably a 28 footer
thanks for the tip
Stephen
I know Little Giant has 1AA ladders- and I have a Louisville 6' stepladder that is a 1AA.
Don't know about regular extension ladders with a 1AA rating- maybe at a contractor supply house.
I dunno ...I have both Werner 28 in FG and alum. I like them both. We use nuthing but alum on every job since I started w/ Grant over a yr ago.
Advantage is we recycle them as chicken ladders and often on a new roof we have to screw through the rails into the sheathing just so we can lay pans to clamp to...you saw the Gainsway pics this summer?
I agree with almost every other reason you wrote about, but ...I think both deserve merit.
I'd hate to have to be stuck with a fly section from a 40' fg as achickenladder. Alum is MUCH better IMO.
Ok, so I get it that I was completely excluded from this conversation save for a passing remark about "chinese" junk gorilla ladders. I don't care to defend the gorilla ladder. I wasn't in the mood to contemplate ladder purchases that day.As for wooden ladders, which originated the above purchase. I mentioned how I don't like them as they seem to need adjustment -- they swell and shrink with the weather and time.I am curious about the old wooden extension ladders. My oldtimer partner says he owned a 40' wooden ladder and loved it.What are they like and how long did they generally last? how long did it take for them to rot? Did they tend to break easily? Are they cumbersome to move around? Did you find them to get rickety and loose often? Just idle curiosity because I've only seen a few wooden ladders in all my short career at this.As for myself, I will always buy fiberglass and high rated as well. When I carry the fiberglass ext. ladder and feel its weight and how smoothly it pushes up in place instead of the clackety-stop-clackety-stop of the aluminum ladder I think, "Thank god." and climb with more confidence.
Yeah, feel more confident on the high FG ext. ladders for sure. Glad to have them when setting up for something labor or time extensive.
But I've got to get an aluminum too 'cause those fg can wear you out pretty quick when you have to continually move them around.
be planning for the long haul
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
I have had experience with only one 40' wooden extension ladder. It was stored indoors, so rot was not an issue. I did not like it.
It was heavy as heck and there was plenty of give in it- not that it is bad, but I suppose wood would give more than aluminum or fiberglass. Given the quality of wood available, I suppose that a good quality tall wooden extension ladder is going to be pricey.
Another shop had plenty of wooden stepladders. Those were heavier than fiberglass versions. Yes, the steel rods under the rungs needed tightening once and a while. No rot issues there, either.
When I asked about the wood ladders, bosses at both shops told me that the wood ladders lasted longer than the fiberglass ones. Not from normal wear and tear, but from employee abuse.
Interesting...thanks for your information.
Stephen,
I can see you are fervent about your beliefs so I won't be bothered to try to sway your thinking-just a couple points to ponder.
1 How many manufacturers produce a triple stage type 1 ladder with 3 20' sections a 60 ex.ladder? I own 2 that are made of alum.
2 How many Fire Depts in the country use fiberglass ladders as there means of accessing burning buildings?
Best regards,
Walter
Excellent points walter---well played indeed ! LOL
of course------ I would counter with
A)--- how many utility linemen do you see with aluminum ladders?
I think that trumps your points #1 & #2 LOL
BTW------- regaurding the 3 stage ladder---------- I would say that is an ALMOST irrelevant consideration as a 3 stage ladder is a considerable rareity-------------- pretty much entirely un-needed for just about anybody on this forum
In fact---in 18-20 years I have only had to access one roof I couldn't work from a 32 ft. ladder ( A press box on top of a high school football stadium)
Of course---if you are doing a lot of church work---things might be different. ( I have only done 2 churches---and they required nothing more than the 32 ft. either.
also keep in mind that the original poster was considering 2@16ft. and 2@24ft.
He doesn't seem to need my 28ft or my 32 ft.-----which I can't quite picture----- but maybe he operates in an area dominated by ranches and capes????
Best wishes, Stephen
I've used a few ladders in my days. Still do, but we are eliminating a lot of that usage with the Skytrak.
My favorite ladder is the 20' staightlegged wood 1A extension ladder. It's very versatile, light, fast and gets you up high enough for most single family work. I'd always carry one longer 28' aluminum ladder for the higher stuff. I normally kept a 32' alumimnum ladder at home and used it once or twice a year.
I hate fiberglass ladders or stepladders. They never feel quite as stable as the wood ladders. Perhaps the uneven terrain and weird places that we have to lean to might be a reason why I've formed my opinions. The glass ladders are just too twisty for my tastes.
Glass step ladders are horrible even on flat decks.
blue
now to be fair blue-------- most of the houses you are framing aren't wired yet --are they?
and here--- I would say only maybe 1/3 of the 2 story houses we work could be accessed from a 24 ft ladder----none from a 20 ft. ladder
Stephen,
Yes if you're working only 20' in the air around power lines all day then fiberglass is far superior to alum.
My point was that alum is more rugged and safer from purely a structural standpoint.Apparently you don't use them with a pick up 32' or so.When you look down and see the belly that develops in a 40' fiberglass type 1A at that level of service you just migh S--t yourself.It's really scary and I'd never use them for that again.
I have 2- 40',2-32' ,4-24' in fiberglass which I use for access lots of times,but I rarely use them with a 24' pick unless the ladders are only up a few rungs.
I know most people will never require a 60' ladder-I only use them occaisionally-but I'll never be able to use one of fiberglass because those who produce them want no part in making a ladder like that.It would be unsafe structurally-as someone said -chance of catastrofic failure.
So in summation,yes if all your work is close to the ground and possibly near power lines,then yes fiberglass is tremendous.But please don't lecture the rest of us who work up high on safety issues cause you're not qualified to speak on such matters.
Best regards,
Walter
walter--------- if you read the original poster
he is describing use very different from YOURS
in fact-- he is describing use almost identical to MINE
so---if anything your 40ft high pick story is bordering on the irrelevant for me---and possibly the original poster.
Be that as it may-------- I will cease "preaching"
but I remain safe on a pick run between a 28 ft and a 32 ft. fiberglass ladders
truly best wishes to you,
Stephen
BTW walter--------- the ladders under discussion by the original poster were 16 ft and 24 ft.-------- in addition to those I reported on my experiences with 28 ft and 32 ft.
I will confess it miffs me a bit when you start talking irrelevant smack about 60 ft extensions ladders and how I am not qualified to comment. WTF?
the discusion---PRIMARILY was 16,24,28 and 32 ft.----who in their right mind is gonna NOT use a 24 ft.--- because YOU don't think the same material is safe over a 40 fter-------- so what---completely irrelevant---and in point of fact---not even under consideration.
there are about 4 topics here I AM qualified to talk about--- and in fact I confine my conversation here to pretty much those 4 topics.
If ya don't like it ,Walter----go pound sand at the top of your 60 ft ladder LOL.
I tried to play nice Walter---but ya just had to push me LOL
Now---lemme buy ya a beer or the beverage of your choice
Best wishes, Stephen
Edited 1/3/2006 4:39 pm ET by Hazlett
Stephen,
The pick you use is Aluminum I suppose for your roof work,resting on two fiberglass ladders with alum . ladder jacks.
After all your talk of esposing safety-you STRADDLE A POORLY INSULATED electric line ,trying to wrestle an alum. pick onto this situation.
And you think some of us are working unsafely!
I just hope your comp carrier doesn't appear on site unannounced to witness that debaucle.
Now I see why your entire reason for choosing glass over alum. is based on fear of getting hurt.
You ought to consider having the power co. wrap your jobs before starting.
Edited 1/3/2006 4:35 pm ET by theslateman
Sorry slateman-------- but no where did I say I was putting a pick on THAT ladder--------- I am climbing it though
Again---- you are reading things in---that just aren't there
Best wishes, Stephen
Stephen,
Thanks for the offer of the O'Douls my drink of choice.I'm having one now as I cook supper.
Sorry if I ruffled your feathers,but you and Nikkiwood started discussing strength and other topics way back in this thread-and my interjections were related to those topics not whatever kind of smack you called it.
I notice a lot of posts evolve from the OP's question-I don't think mine are off the mark in that respect.
We have legitamit differences in what we prefer and our work is different.I was pointing out that Alum . is just as safe or safer than glass in certain situations.
The 60' ladder was just an illustration of that point as was the reason Firefighters use alum-for strength concerns primarily.
You kept espousing glass as superior to alum. at all times which is just your opinion ,not fact.
So if you must, call me whatever-but I haven't resorted to name calling with you-just calling them as I see them.
I think I have more glass ladders than you do so don't just summarily reject my postings because I'm relatively new here.
Best regards,and thanks for the drink.
Have a prosperous and safe 06
Walter
I think "FG vs Alum" is the new "wormdrive vs sidewinder" .
Looks to me like it's coming down to the same conculsion of many of those other hot topics....... the best choice is whatever you're most comfortable with.View Image
Lemme throw some gas on this fire..LOL
Today, Dale ( 220 lbs) me, (175 lbs) 24' 500 lb rated 16" pic, were hanging gutter...pic is maybe 100lbs? I dunno, I can carry it solo purty well...any way..I had my Stanley 20' alum from wallworld ( really light and quick to scoot around) and DAle had his 16' Louisville on grade above mine, witha broken rung and shovel handle drove thru it..
Not an OSHA type scene, so speaking of this thread with him, we TRIED to see if anything could "Give", we even BOTH got on one end ..low to ground of course...
NAda, zilch, both ladders are still fine, and so are we. ALL the ratings are VASTLY under sized, even the 200lb rating on that crappy 70 dollar Stanley...
As far as power lines? Common sense rules..at MY house, that is why y'all saw one of each when I first tore out the west wall..I put the orange nearest the wires..geeze.
I don't think anyone should duplicate our "test" cuz we know how to land, if something should give way.
Just adding fuel , just adding fuel..(G)
sphere----- you and dale are lightweights
I got at least 20 pounds on dale alone. LOL
It's coming off an hour at a time on this freaking exercise bike though.
Stephen
"we even BOTH got on one end ..low to ground of course..."But that is not worse case.If you want to try it them have them at full extension and then try this in the middle of the ladder.And of course there is some safety margin built in.
I am the original poster on this topic. Whow.................I never thought there would be so much lively discussion. I did a great deal of roofing and siding work in the Akron, Ohio area some years back. I always used wooden ladders of which I still have. My best two are 24 footers with laminated side rails. Those are two tuff ladders. Many times I had my Werner 24' HD pick on them, alum ladder jacks, two guys and a square or square and a half of three tab shingles. But I most always felt safe. I hate looking down and seeing that "bellying ladder thing'.
I plan on starting back doing a little of that type of work again thus my questions. You folks all make good points. Espec. the one about alum ladders just taking off on you and skating along the wall or gutter. BTW, we tried to never lean againt the gutter for anything if at all possible. If we had to we would place the ladder very vertical. I had some alum ladders in my arsonal but I did not like them much except at set-up or tear down time. They also slide nice up onto the truck racks!! I still have a 40 foot alum that takes two men and a boy to extend because it got tweaked a little some years back.
The main thing coming out of all of this is to use equipment that is safe and you feel comfortable with. A two man crew has different considerations than a big crew. In my judgement the larger the crew the more idiot proof things have to be. If you are using people out of the hall you best have what they are used to on hand.
I have some time before I have to buy these so I guess I might be checking out eBay and the local bargain hunter. THANKS for all the input.
Mike L.
Mike,
I work almost entirely in Akron------ actually --almost entirely in Firestone Park
do we know each other ????
give me an email sometime if ya want---- If we are compatible -------maybe we can pair up for a few things this spring .
Ladders Unlimmited up in cleveland will set ya up right with those ladders-------and might cut ya a deal if ya buy 'em all at once.
I have bought ladder racks for 2 different trucks there and any number of ladders, pic's, jacks etc.
good luck to ya,
Stephen
Actually, we did. I just didn't want scare everybody thinking we do that all the time.
New job today a 40' ladder won't reach, so we build scaffold in the AM.
ougtta call us "Gutters Galore" lately.
When a 40'er won't reach.... it's time for me to go home and watch Sportscenter.
God bless ya up there dude. Yer a better man than me.View Image
You can borrow one of my aluminum 60's if you promise to return it in the same condition.
I've only even seen a 60' ladder once in my life. I still have nightmares about it.View Image
Brian,
Once it's up it's a treat to climb.
There are spots where a boom truck can't access so it can come in handy.
Best Walter
How do you get a 60' ladder up?A 40' is a challenge in good conditions, I can't imagine a 30' section. Or is it 3 20' sections? Either way you're looking at a lot of weight.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
My first cheery pop w/ a 60' wood tri lift was in 82....A Union guy was toten up a bundle ( 80lb?) he was 240..
He broke rung #3...was real pissed...asked if there was a carpy onsite.."chop it up, put on thr fire"....
I took it home...used it once, about killed me..I sold it.
Our 40'ALUM can be done alone by Dale, but I can't/won't try.
Sumptin about that last fifteen yrs...makesa difference.
How do you get a 60' ladder up?
Pretty girls in elepant suits
king kong?
Edited 1/5/2006 1:33 am ET by Sphere
Jon,
One of the 60's is older and both sections are raised in unison when you pull the rope.
The newer one has two ropes,each strung independently,so that you can raise each fly section as you wish.
Two men can handle it to set and raise,but Wheaties are best consumed for breakfast that morning.
No chance of breakage like Sphere talked about-feels real solid once erected.
Early on I once set three lifts of staging-then 40' on top of that to access a spot.Now thats scary!
walter,
given your level of experience--------
the number of ladders you possess and your longegevity here would not be of any concern of mine.
to me---the value of this forum is to share relevant experience------ so that folks going into a similar situation can benefit
And each individual can decide if the experience shared---is relevant to the application being considered.
that's part of why I sometimes drone on and on------ so that each relevant detail can be clear---and evaluated. I think most people here are gonna use a ladder pretty close to my application---- how many of us NEED a 60 ft extension ladder?
quite a few do NEED , say a 24 ft one---and quite a few are gonna be right next to a power line
so---to me, the choice and the immediate need are obvious-----somebody else might size things up differently
to be clear about the pick----- it's a 24 ft pick----so I can't work the entire bottom edge of the roof( most roofs here would be 30 or 32 ft.)
so---the pick will run between 2 ladders--and the 3rd ladder will be next to---or straddling the electric line( who wouldn't prefer fiberglass there?)--- I work from that ladder to roof that immediate area---and to set the first roof jack---------- after that I can move that ladder out of the way----- maybe to a porch---maybe to the other side of the house----but usually i move it into position to use as an access ladder to the pick.
dieselpig mentioned something about a osha reg regaurding 20 ft on the pick
I wasn't aware of that---- but usually I would set a pick so that the bottom edge of the roof hits me right about the gut level----------- so---in general I doubt the pick is usually over 20 ft high---never measured
And frankly---it's a 2 man pick--- I hate it---and prefer just working from the ladder as it's generally more work to set up the pic than to move the ladder a few times.
Best wishes, Stephen
Haz, we agree about one thing: I hate using the pics too and prefer to set up multiple ladders to jump around on.
You are also right, I don't ever set up ladders near electrical components, so safety regarding that is never a concern. My only thoughts are geared to stability. Wood ladders grip the sides of the houses much better for me and I can lean sideways (unless I'm leaned up against Tyvek) on them a lot farther than I can with fiberglass. That's my litmus test for ladders. The wood ladders tend to twist better and remain seated, while the fiberglass seem to want to roll out from under me.
I also agree that I'm not going up a 60' ladder. I know for a fact that I couldn't lift one!
blue
As for the issue of aluminum sliding against the building, why not put something on it to prevent that -- slit rubber hose, gaffer's tape, something like that? I'll have to remember to give that a try next time.
-- J.S.
Pipe insulation that is split works well too.
Pairs of ladder mitts too.
It's really a misconception that alum. is more slippery than glass anyway.
I hope that doesn't overly rile anyone.
I would guess that there is not enough contact difference among the three. What can the braking action of about 1 sq" be? Probably because the weight of wood or glass deform the gutter more (:-).
That,but also wood has more friction than either other material but glass is more slick than aluminum.
Yup.
I own Werner and have used Lynn- 1A or 1AA only for these 250+ lbs- aluminum for extension and fg for stepladder. The Kellers I've tried feel like climbing a rope ladder. Used wood years ago and can vouch for for their impact absorption ability ;o) - in '78 rode one down 2 stories to the sidewalk; went through 3 rungs before I got spit off. Got off easy with just a good bruisin'.
This shows a job I worked on today installing snow guards.
Aluminum ladder leaning against alum.gutter-using no pipe insulation.I did use a short line as an insurance against slipping-it was lightly snowing at the time.
We use standoffs for almost all of our gutter work. When Dale lost his rubber bumpers last year I had the wife get some baby sneakers at the Salvation army,,,a little geocel and he was set LOL ( his pride got in the way tho' and they didn't last long)
Next we are looking into little boxing gloves.
Sphere,
I wasn't doing gutter work but installing snow guards into a slate roof to keep avalanching snow and ice from hitting pedestrians or vehicles.
I needed to be close to the roof edge to install these items and didn't want the arms of the stabilizer impeding my being able to remove the three slates needed for the retrofit install for each guard.
The pics were to illustrate aluminum ladder to gutter which I would never attempt with a glass ladder-just too slippery.
Have fun with the octagonal pool house-and post us some pics of that.
What type of brackets do you guys use with slate?
Well, I am laid up at the moment..badly sprained my ankle this weekend ( at home) and I guess we start the slate later in the week. I hope to be walking better tomorrow.
I don't know what Grant has planned for roof brackets yet, have not even seen the job yet. I may be delagated to being the cutter, if my ankle is acting strange.
I understand about the snowguards and getting right up to them. We installed a slew of them on two jobs recently, fortunately the ones for standing seam are easy, just two 3/16th allen screws to clamp on to the seams.
I haven't done any slate since I moved from PA 12 yrs ago, gotta remember all tricks. One thing I do miss is a box of copper cut nails with roofer type heads I used to have, they were some cool nails..I don't they make em anymore. I did a few turrets in Bethlehem PA, and got pretty good with a slate cutter.
I've never seen nails like those new,but have removed lots of them in old work-but out of another metal like zinc coated iron.Not like galvanized,but a different composition.
Sounds like a nice project coming up for you guys.I'll post a couple of pics of the brackets i use on slate.Easy to make,inexpensive and very rugged.
Good luck getting the wheels back under ya.
Thanks, I am doing all instructions they gave me at the ER..can't wait for that bill. groan.
Yeah, those nails still came in kegs I think, a contractor I had worked for had a 100lbs or so, I bought 20 or so lbs for ornamental accents on furniture..but they were in the shop when it burnt, have not seen any since anywhere.
I'd love to see what ya have for braackets, mebbe I can whip em up here in the shop.
I'm going to send it to you as a Shutterfly album.I think I've got those pics there and not on my hard drive.Once they're in a Shutterfly album I can't retrieve them to resize and post them here.
Let me know if you get them.
Best regards, Walter
will do.Thnx
john sprung--- the pipe insulation might not be a bad idea--------- of course the ladder doesn't hit the same place on the house on every set up---- so there are trade offs with everything
I actually use ladder mits on all my FIBERGLASS ladders(LOL)------ but even the mitts can have a downside----- ya got a clean 'em or replace em periodically cause they will pick up this slippery chalky coating from aluminum siding etc.
and of course the true reason the fiberglass is much less slippery---- is that all the horribly dreaded UV radiation imparts a "Safety Non -Skid" texture to the fiberglass---LOL
Obviously--- the scratched texture of well usesd fiberglass is less slippery than the smooth surface of aluminum
of course----what the heck do I know---all are minds are made up anyhow
Best wishes, Stephen
> .... the reason Firefighters use alum-for strength concerns primarily.
I'd think that the fire dep'ts concern would be what happens if flames reach the ladder. Does fiberglass burn or melt before aluminum gets too hot to use for escape? I'm sure the FD knows the answer, but it's really not relevant here.
-- J.S.
Walter, I just want to make a point. I think just about all of us are guilty now and again of not working in total safety compliance at all times. But I don't think that disqualifies someone from pointing out a safety hazard or pointer.
For instance, you're giving Stephen a hard time for his set-up near live wires. You also told him he's "not qualified" to speak on such matters as working up high safely. Yet in the same post you admit to using ladderjacks on 24', 32' and 40' ladders. Using ladder jacks over 20' is an OSHA violation. Unless of course you're harnessed in as well. You were harnessed, right? ;) And you had a ladder and jack every 8', right? See what I mean?
Hey, what do I know? Maybe you were roped in and had an extension ladder every 8'. But I still think we all have the right to talk about safety procudures. And we all have the right to dispute them. But if a guy is working 20' off the ground I gotta believe that he's using the same safety principles as you working 40' off the ground. 20' or 40'..... either way, hitting the ground is gonna suck.
View Image
Brian,
I always enjoy your posts and this one is no exception.
You're right it's a violation to have an employee working as you suggest,but as a sole proprietor OSHA can not cite me for doing it.I do a lot of things in my slate work that I wouldn't consider asking an employee to do.
Maybe I was a little rough on Stephen,but look at his response to Nikkiwood suggesting perhaps a different line of work.
I've read plenty of spirited debates in the short time I've been here.
Maybe I just need to learn who you can argue with and who you shouldn't.
I do admire your drive and to be so far advanced in the business at your age.
I wished I had started younger.
Best regards, Walter
Whoa..... back up there....
but as a sole proprietor OSHA can not cite me
is that right? Are you sure about that? I've never heard that before, and that's why I'm asking. That would be quite interesting.
I'm glad you enjoy my posts. I'm currently getting torn a new one in another thread right now, so it's nice to hear that someone appreciates what I've got to say. ;) LOL.
As far as who you can argue with and who you can't..... well... I guess BT is pretty much just like real life. You can argue with whoever you want to. Sometimes you just don't get very far with it. Awful lot of "alpha males" here. That's why I like it here.... I get to learn from the best of the best and your experience seems to make you fit right in with that vein.
View Image
You done now?
Feel better?
Proud of yourself?
Glad I could help.
;-)
Dude's got my number over there.
Can't please 'em all. lol.View Image
Where is the fight? I want to go watch. (:-)
Edited 1/3/2006 6:34 pm ET by rasconc
Brian,
Yes it's true OSHA has no juristiction over whatever I do to myself.
I could and have done things that are total no-no's to ask an employee to do.
When I work with help-yes we pipe stage with full alum. 2x4 backrails and harness in as required-no one wants to see the Feds show up.
There are times when a 60' boom truck is not available and things need to be done-usually slate repairs-so if I knowing choose to do something risky I can not be cited for it if no employee is involved.
Your other post about debate on the glass vs. alum. was right on the button as evidenced by Stephen's and my lively debates.
Keep up the good work.
I'm trying to get forumhelp to find out why I can't post pic's,cause I've got a lot to share.
Take care, Walter
walter------- i don't think I told nikkiwood to get another line of work
I think I suggested that ANYBODY who couldn't handle the negligible difference between aluminum and fiberglass ought to consider a nother line of work LOL
most people here have a decent sense of humor--- and I don't think that remark offended anybody
even if it did--- I stand by it. LOL
Personally--- I avoid table saws, routers, chainsaws, breakerboxes, gas lines--- really an endless list
Stephen.
Stephen,
Brian is correct,ladders with jacks max out at 20'-if you have employees on them.He's also right on that harnesses and lines are needed if there are no backrails-this from anything over 6'.
If you or I are working alone,as sole prop's than these reg's are not enforceable-but if you employ or use subs then the law requires rails or lines to prevent workers falling.
Best regards, Walter
I'm not easily offended, but I am easily amused -- which was my reaction to your pretty much over-the-top response to my straightforward question (are FG and AL ladders with the same rating equal in strength, sturdiness, etc.?).What I read from you is generally evenhanded and sensible, and I am curious to know what set you off.Care to take another crack at my question? -- maybe this time without the vitriol?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
sphere--------- the hook ladder is an intersting scenario----- you might have me there on a technicality---because my primary hook ladder is ( slow drum roll please)---the dreaded aluminum !
however---to be fair I think a hook ladder should be classed less as a ladder---and more like a item of stageing like a pick plank---- mine specifically is a dedicated hook------------it's one of the ones used to wallpaper billboards-------and actually--- I see THOSE being fiberglass now-adays as well.---- so if I were buying one today---it would certainly be fiberglass.
---also--- I don't know about your application---but here any roof requiring a hookladder is much less of a shock hazard being ABOVE the electric lines---and the hook ladder NOT extending from roof to ground.
all that being said------- I have encountered many roofs that I would decline---if required to work from aluminum ladders
I have yet to meet one I would decline if required to work from fiberglass
just my opinion,
Stephen
Stephen,Would it be accurate to state that your primary concern with AL ladders is their conductivity? You mention several other points but the one that keeps coming up is the shock hazard.Let me ask you this, do you rely solely on a FG ladder for protection from the service or do you employ other means?Your point about the utility lineman is a little stretch, I think. I would bet their #1 goal each and every day is not end up looking like chicken fried steak from contacting a 7200 volt load. I would use FG if that were my main task, but I generally try to stay away from dangerous EL anyways.I've been pondering the ladder question for a few days and I did realize one thing I've never considered. I think FG ladders look more professional than AL (I never see wood so that is a non-issue). I don't know if it's because you always see FG on utility and municipial trucks (which typically look decent and professional) or what but I think the FG does have an edge there.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
I can't really agree with your position either. With that line of thinking, I should consider buying a car without airbags. Not having the airbags would force me drive more carefully. And I should also throw away the guards on my saws because it will force me to be more careful in how I handle them.
I just can't agree. Bottom line is "accidents happen". Even to the most careful of us. It's just the nature of the beast with construction. It only takes a momentary lapse of judgement for an accident occur. I'm sure that each and every one of us is capable of a moment's lapse. I sure am.
The other thing to consider is your employees safety. While you can be as careful as a bomb tech in handling your ladder around live wires, you can't always control how your guys work every second of every day. Sooner or later someone will take a short cut when you're not looking.
I agree that safety should be first priority on jobs at all times. But better to take as many precautions as you can to insulate the "human factor" in jobsite safety. I'd venture that 9 times out of 10 it's a human failure that creates a jobsite accident, not equipment failure.
FWIW, I happened to be looking at extension ladders while in HD yesterday waiting for them to bring a vanity up to the front of the store for me. I need to replace a 16'er and need to buy a 32'er as my 24 often comes up short. This thread was on my brain as I was looking. There was about a $50 difference in the price of the 32' aluminum vs the 32' FG. View Image
Jon--------
where I work the electric comes to the house on overhead wires. Frankly--- I can't think of the last time I worked on a house with underground utility( largely because I avoid the yuppie ghettoes like the plague)
So-------- on essentially every house I work-------a ladder is going to be set up immediately adjacent the main electric line leading to the meter--------and in fact the ladder will usually be set up straddling the line.
now---here----in most jurisdictions---- if we are siding a house it's required to have one permit for the siding---and to have a licensed electrician pull a SECOND permit . the electrician has to pull the permit---then pull the meter so the house can be sided benind the meter---then re-install--- then call for inspection. ( By the way---all THAT time the electric is STILL live)
i will do that if I am siding
but if I am roofing-------on virtually every house I am gonna have to set a ladder straddling that wire---and start my roof immediately above the meter------and since that house will be 80 plus years old-----I can count on the insulation on that wire being more than a bit dodgy
and------ now-adays I take a cordless saw up top when required--------- but for most of my career I was hauling a long extension cord up the ladder behind a circ. saw to cut in roof vents etc.---- and who knows when there is gonna be a problem with that cord?
so---yea--- the electric was a big concern---- but even if it wasn't--- I still would prefer the fiberglass over aluminum. I could go on and on and on and on and on ---------- but ----
I can depend on the fiberglass---- it flexes more like the the wood ladders I started out with---very comforting. aluminum ladders behave erratically------- with very little flex---they tend to shift suddenly, and unexpectedly. the rails are VERY slippery---and will slide sideways along the gutter or fascia at light speed given the slightest chance
the aluminum ladders are horifically noisyclang,bang schmang EVERY time you go up or down, Every time you set up or break down for the day---every foot you drive home rattle bang on the top of the truck.
Now----- i think Dieselpig pointed out that the cost difference is maybe $50. I am glad he pointed that out because he illustrates very well what a trivial consideration that is . $50 over the life of the ladder----that's nothing
BUT---if we were all doing a bit of soul searching---- I would bet that $50 is the REAL objection most people have--------all the other things like UV degradation are pretty silly objections if you think about it---------
imagine the logic that says" I am not gonna buy that demonstrably safer fiberglass ladder because MAYBE 10,15-20-30 years from now if I abuse it---it MIGHT have soaked up enough sunlight to become questionable------accept the electrocution hazard today to avoid the POSSIBLE uv problem 20 years from now????
Cmon!!!!!
and---no offense---but your rationale is like saying you prefer to work with dull saw blades because they they keep the probability of kickback in the front of your mind. LOL
Now Jon--- I am not that smart, I certainly could be wrong------------- but since every day I work I use these things----- believe me I thought this through long ago.
We all value different qualities and attributes differently--- I just don't place that high of a value on $50 for instance-------- the other rationales?---well as I said earlier--fiberglas posses some positive qualities I feel strongly outweigh very minor negative possibilities.
If your internal scale weighs things differently---well that's cool to---but I ain't working off of your ladders. LOL
Best wishes ,All
Stephen
While we're on the subject, I have a 36 footer (aluminum) that I bought several years ago on the advice of my roofer. It's made by Blue Ribbon out of Illinois or Ohio...but the company seems to be out of business. I need to replace the ladder dogs because one of the springs doesn't want to spring anymore. Does anybody know if the manufacturer's springs are interchangeable.
Thank You
Werner makes excellent "dogs" .If your rungs are the same width then they should be able to work.
Maybe a local could just fabricate a spring for you.
Thank You,
I'll give Werner a try.