I sort of feel like I’m beating a dead horse, but here goes …
Alas, we have another thread, describing the injuries sustained in a fall from a ladder. Since it was a residential accident, I assume that the distance wasn’t that great, and the ground wasn’t that hard.
Folks, one of the most challenging places for a ladder is around the outside of a home. The ground, it seems, is never even, it is not uniformly firm, there are plenty of bushes, etc., in the way. There almost seems to be a conspiracy at work, to prevent you from setting up a ladder.
Then we compound things by hanging gutters.
I’ve taken plenty of heat on this topic, and my solution … even when I was the guy spending the money, and was a supposedly independent contractor. Here’s my solution:
Spend lots of money, on lots of different ladders and their accessories. You’ll find the Holy Grail before you find a truly versatile ladder.
For outdoor residential work, I primarily use two ladders that NO ONE else seems to have.
First, there is my 7/11 ft. ‘combination’ ladder. This ladder can be either a 7 ft. step ladder, ot an 11 ft. extension ladder. The feet are rounded, and the base is a lot wider than the top. As an extension ladder, it is exceptionally sturdy when set against a house or eave. As a stepladder, you do feel some “wobble” due to those rounded feet, but it’s still quite sturdy. Inside the house, it’s great for attic access; “stepladder” to open the hatch, “extension ladder” to enter the attic.
Then there is my 16 ft “four way” ladder. I use it for nothing else but accessing roofs. Rather than leaning it against the gutters – a dodgy arrangement at best – I fold the top section maybe 60 degrees. This sets the top end directly against the roof, with the ladder itself arching around the gutters. With the broad base to this ladder – end caps are easily 30″ wide – the ladder has very lettly side-to-side shifting as you make the ladder / roof transition.
Make no mistake, though; I have many other ladders. At last count, I had ten …. and really ought to have a few more. As a rule, my truck caries five.
Of course, it’s best that you not have to use a ladder at all. Christmas is coming …. have you pre-placed hooks on your house to hang the lights? I have. I can hang / remove my lights in less than a half hour, and never use a ladder. All I need is an extension pole.
Replies
Sounds like you and I work on different height houses.
A 16' Little Giant or clone wouldn't begin to give me access to most of the homes I work on.
My trick is to tie the bottom of the access ladder to a small eye bolt I've secured to the water table board or other suitable anchorage.
Of course I totally agree in principle with your comments -- you can't ever be too safe.
Just to clarify ... I wasn't referring to the Little Giant ladder. The LG's I've used have but one pivot point - in the middle. The ladder I was referring to has three pivots over the 16 ft length.
As I set up the ladder, I end up with a 12 ft section that brings me to roof level ... and the last four feet being more or less horizontal until it comes to rest on the roof deck, a couple feet above the drip edge.
Also lost in the haste to 'git 'er dun' is the detail that most of your falls, most of your serious injuries, happen over rather modest distances. Say, with the feet less than four feet off the ground.
One ladder that I lack ... and the larger LG's would fill this bill .... is a ladder intended for use on stairways. I'll probably get one the next time the job calls for it.
Ladders, I admit, are not cheap. Most of mine cost over $200. Nor, as the other poster alludes, are they the only solution. Scaffolds, lifts, and tie-offs all have their role.
But, damn it, I'm sick of seeing folks atop wobbly tin foil step ladders, on soft earth, straddling bushes, trying to do something. That's a recipe for a broken neck.
I have that ladder, it's black box section for rails and alum tube rungs. Pretty heavy duty, IIRC when I got it in about '90 the box had a pict. of a Ford Truck set on it when set up as a scaffold or table like config.
It makes a "W" or "M" , a flat 8' long walk scaffold on the two outer legs, an "A" , and a few odd angles like you described. Fairly heavy, wide stance, and it KILLS my feet after awhile, the rungs are too narrow for my likes.
Also have the LG clone, and 2 28's, a 24' with werner level feet, a 20', a 16' and 3 steps, 6'8'10'...all have tried to kill me at least once.
Be careful up there.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
BRING BACK SPLINTY.
I agree with all you said.
I really like the little giant type ladder, (I have two of the "clones" made by both keller and werner and a lot cheaper). Two of these with a aluminum extension plank between are great for soffit and eave work. At that hieght on a one story, each ladder has 8 legs on the ground and they are very stable. Also, you are able to walk right up the end of a ladder and onto the plank.
I sometimes volunteer for the local Habitat for Humanity and they are constantly using stepladders around the exterior of houses on top of soft sandy backfill...Dangerous!
My trick is to tie the bottom of the access ladder to a small eye bolt I've secured to the water table board or other suitable anchorage.
Last replacement window of the day. Ladder to long so I set it at to low of an angle on the black top.
Sucker went out so fast I hadn't a clue.
Top of the line sprain to the left foot. Lost a couple weeks of work. It still hurts, and I think I was lucky.
Good idea there.
Hi! I'm Mr. No One. And a measly HO.
My 8' combination ladder has solid level feet that don't wobble. It does nice in stretching out up to 12' or more. I fail to understand why more people don't own these.
But for manly heights, I'll stack a couple of Baker II racks. For wimmen's work up higher, I go for my Biljax Contur pipe staging. Ain't no terrain uneven enuff for them!
These should be standard equipment for all homeowners.
Agree with you 100%, right ladder (or these days a telehandler or lift) for the job, one size fits all means somebody will die or has died - literally.
My maternal grandfather died from a fall off a ladder while painting a house.
Last year put a new roof on Mom's house. She STILL will not watch anyone related to her climb a ladder. Made sure I took my safety harness back with me to her house (2000 mi away) and made sure Mom knew I was wearing it.
I agree ... doubt that any of my precautions are relevant to pros, but ...
I always try to get the ladder to around 70-75 degrees, ideally. Flip the feet to dig in in soft ground.
I shim under any uneven areas. You can also get a leveler
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I use ladder tip protectors on a ladder standoff/stabilizer - and use the standoff most of the time - the additional width gives stability.
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I have my house set up so that I can get onto all high roof areas from a roof deck and blow all the gutters out with a leaf blower/shop vac hose extention (aluminum pole guided) so I don't get near the edge of the roof. Next step - harness and permanent eye bolts.
I use a 12' A-frame around the first floor.
Jeff
Edited 11/8/2008 10:33 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
I can't say enough good things about a Little Giant ladder. When used as an extension ladder, the wide base and top provide added stability. I also have their leveler attachment, and it has been quite handy.
If I need a traditional extension ladder, I *always* tie it off at the top with a rubber bungee cord. If I am on a hard surface, I will back/park my truck to the ladder and use the vehicle as something to prevent ladder kickout.
Probably one of the most dangerous things I see is someone using an A frame ladder in the folded position leaning against a wall... very easy for the base to kick out and throw you. A Little Giant ladder will allow you to offset the front and back sides by one step, allowing the wall side to be vertical. The ladder is invaluable in this configuration.
Homeowners frequently buy the cheapest ladder they can buy. I have never understood that reasoning.
"one of the most dangerous things I see is someone using an A frame ladder in the folded position leaning against a wall... very easy for the base to kick out and throw you"
Agreed!
Jeff
Your way of setting up that four way to wrap around the gutter sounds like a killer to me. Good chance to get foot caught and trip getting on or off at top. OSHA standards call for the ladder to extend three feet above the edge of the roof, giving you a hand hold for mounting and dismounting.
I have heard of and seen my share of ladder injuries.
Most were from bad footing/set-up, with the feet on debris that slid or on uneven ground. A couple from not taking time to be sure the dogs were locked in and safe. one from somebody leaving a bunch of junk at the base, so the next guy down tripped at bottom getting off.
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I have posed a link to a thread where these very issues were discussed.
All I can say is ... the arrangement is extremely sturdy, with essentially no shifting of the ladder as you make the ladder to roof transition.
The OSHA rule you refer to is for extension ladders. This is not an extension ladder.
That aside, whatever the wording of a rule may be, OSHA is required - some of the first court cases were on this very principle - to consider / allow differing approaches that are at least as good as whatever their rule calls for.
In the words of an old commercial .. "Try it, you'll like it."
You have me more confused now. You posted a lot of links, but I don't see one that led to a discussion."The OSHA rule you refer to is for extension ladders. This is not an extension ladder."No - the rile applies to ladders used to access a roof.
I must not be getting the right picture in my minds eye from your verbal."the arrangement is extremely sturdy, with essentially no shifting of the ladder as you make the ladder to roof transition."I was not talking about the ladder shifting. I was referring to tripping over the parts on the roof above the gutter trying to get to the ladder.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I beg to differ. The OSHA rules refer specifically to extension ladders. Step ladders are discussed in another section. One might as well apply boat rules to aircraft.
Indeed, I would assert that the use of ANY ladder against a gutter is an accident waiting to happen. There's just not enough support in a gutter to be reliable - not to mention the risk of damage to the gutter. (Never happen? Look at existing gutters ... they probably were not installed with those wrinkles in them!)
Do what works for you. I am not advocating any sort of 'one size fits all' approach.
The thread was inspired not by any specific link that I posted - those links were all the result of specific requests. One link showed the articulating ladder in use, just to help everyone's 'mind's eye.' I took pains not to link to any particular incident, simply because the gent involved has enough on his plate right now, and I didn't want to get into discussing the specifics of that incident. I wasn't there ... and, had I wished to comment on that particular incident, I would have posted there.
Instead, as I sit here, I hear an ad, some firm offering to put up your Christmas lights. I recall all the times I've seen such work done with inadequate ladders. I also recall every 'miracle does it all' ladder ad I've ever seen.
My point? There is no such ladder. The simple reason there are countless ladders available is simply because there cannot ever be such a wonder ladder. I wish to encourage folks to not hesitate to buy the complete assortment of tools for the job.
After all .... you wouldn't toss your tool kit, just because you bought a "Swiss Army" knife? Or, replace all your wrenches with a Crescent wrench, would you. Yet folks do this all the time when it comes to ladders.
As a side-bar, I wanted to share a few of the less common ladders, that I have found particularly useful. You can't buy it if you don't know it exists. Of the five ladders on my truck, three are types that I had not know existed, had I not seen them in use - and I had to order them. Others may find a different selection of ladders more appropriate to their work, and that's fine too.
Okay, a related question-
When do you throw out a fiberglass ladder because it's getting old?
My 32' is 25+ years. Seems fine. Never dropped any distance or run over with the truck. So, am I good to go for another 25?
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
If you store your fiberglass ladder in a garage, or someplace else out of the sun, it should last a long, long time.
UV will break down the fiberglass when its left outside. I've read that FB ladders should be given a coat of paste wax to act as a UV protectant.
If the fiberglass on your ladder doesn't look crazed, your ladder probably is good for quite a few more years.
Thanks.
IIRC, there is some crazing - it's always been outside. Still pretty strong when we're walking on it. I'll have a good look tomorrow.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
I really hate crazed ladderssane ones can be bad enough
Barry E-Remodeler
Hey, i'm not trying to start an arguement. I was just trying top picture what in the devil you were trying to describe. It ain't coming into focus. as anything practical or safe the way it comes across to me.
I thought you had said you linked to a discussion of that ladder and method. I don't find it. so I am still lost.BUt it is easy to stick a piece of lumber in a gutter to keep it solid for leaning a ladder, or to use a stand-off.
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"For outdoor residential work, I primarily use two ladders that NO ONE else seems to have"
And it will stay that way unless you are nice enough to include some links to these aforementioned ladders.
Some pics of your set ups would be good too.
Combination Ladder: http://www.amazon.com/Werner-300-Pound-Aluminum-Combination-C378/dp/B00070OW2A Sorry their picture isn't that good.
This is my model - the 8' stepladder that can convert into a 13.5' (working length) extension ladder. The stepladder function can be set up with unequal legs so it can work well on stairs or very steep slopes.
But do notice the availablity in this ad. When googling the ladder, some results will pop up, but it doesn't seem as if this ladder is really available any more. The sources I clicked on are all out of stock.
Some links will show different setups. Some even show patents given within the last 5 years.
These claims must be a result of confusion as I've owned one for at least 25 years. My bro got me one way back when I built a house back in '81.
This current 8 footer I found thru a commercial ladder salesman whom only carried a yellow pages ad and cell phone as his office. I had to go pick it up at some huge warehouse out in Aurora, CO. about 6 years ago.
I've used these ladders to paint the ceiling and far top walls of a stairwell by setting up the stepladder function safely into one very short leg and the other the full 8' length. This allows one to easily get into a very inconvenient spaces other ladders simply cannot get to.
The key to how these work is the top "step" of the ladder has an unusual shape that can grip onto the opposite leg's round treads. Plus, when folded up (like a closed step ladder) the round treaded side can slip up or down within guides to the desired length and then grip into the aforementioned top step at your desired shape. No knobs to tighten or any other form of adhesion. Simply fold closed, slide to position, and then open (like a stepladder).
Great ladders. But I wonder if there is some legal issue or manufacturing problem that has the current availibilty shut down?
Just to clarify, the 'combination ladder' I was referring to was NOT some multi-shape shifting do it all miracle ladder. Here's a link:
http://www.greenbullladder.com/fibcombo_2262xx.htm
Nor, despite the header, is it s 'tripod' ladder.
They're made by Louisville, Werner, and Green Bull, in 6,7,and 8' models.
Two, maybe three, things set these apart from most other ladders. First, notice the rounded feet; these are primarily designed for outdoor use. Second, note that the lower section is "splayed," broader at the base than at the top. Finally, they come with a pole-grip bracket - which is handy on the corners of buildings as well.
AS far as I know, they are available only in fiberglass, 375# ratings. I had to order mine; I didn't know they existed, until the cable guy used one. Expect to pay about $275.
Kinda like I figgered. There's some variation in the use of "combination ladder" terms.
Point well taken!
I've already posted the step-to-straight combination ladder. Here's another version:
http://www.wernerladder.com/catalog/details.php?series_id=310
"Articulated" ladders are made in many forms; alas, my Louisville model seem to be discontinued. I've used lighter duty aluminum models (Werner,) and they ought to work just fine.
As for useage ...
The "combination" ladder is one I keep always on the truck. It's not perfect, but it's better than carrying two ladders around. (Besides ... try to find a decent 11 ft. extension ladder!)
The "articulated" ladder stays in the shop 95% of the time, being reserved for certain special uses - such as wrapping around gutters. This link is to a thread on another site, where I posted a few pics:
http://www.electrical-contractor.net/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=160756&page=0&fpart=1
Also: http://www.wernerladder.com/catalog/details.php?series_id=168
I should note that the particular roof shown is extremely dicey when using an ordinary extension ladder. Smooth ladder against corrugated sheet metal, etc.
"Little Giant," and other multi-purpose ladders, have their uses. The point I'm making is that ther is no such thing as a 'perfect' ladder; you'll eventually need an assortment.
Ditto for various ladder accessories. Leg levelers, stand-off brackets, tool holders ... all have their role.
I mentioned that my truck always has 5 different ladders on it. What amazes me is that only two of them - the 20' extension ladder and the 10' stepladder - are ladders typically stocked by vendors. The others I've had to order. These are: a 2 ft. step ladder, a 5 ft. step ladder, and the combination ladder. Prior to having the combination ladder, I used a 7 ft. step ladder and a POS 11 ft. extension ladder.
Laugh if you must, but that 2 ft step ladder gets the most use. Whether used for tying stuff to the top of the truck, access to the truck bed, or as a work holder, it's proven its' worth many times. A "two sided" or "mechanic's" type ladder, the two sides form a "V" when open, helping hold your work piece.
http://www.wernerladder.com/catalog/details.php?series_id=121
I find a 5 ft. step ladder much more useful than either the 4 ft. or 6 ft. commonly available. I can easily reach an 8 ft. ceiling, and it fits in a cramped bathroom.
A 7 ft. step ladder will fit under most doors, allowing me to position it just right- especially whan I have to poke my head through a drop ceiling. It will also fit inside a standard truck bed or van body.
Thanks for linking the twin-step ladder. I've been looking for one of those for quite some time, but local stores don't stock them.BruceT
I've got to get one of those 2 footers! I use a 2' ladder a lot also and have steped off the wrong side too many times.
I've got a couple of combination ladders myself. Easily my favorite ladders.
They are sure hard to come by around here. Never seen anyone else with them ever.
Got mine from American Industrial Equipment. Noone sells them in my neck of the woods. (Flint, Mi area.)
Check out the Basemate ladder levelers for your extension ladders. Pretty slick.
Flint, huh?
Can you imagine I started my stockbroker career there in that town? Talk about trying to scare up investable cash in America's least desirable city. (According to Money mag.) Or maybe I should say, Flint Township, since I was over by Linden and Bristol.
How's business out in those parts nowadays?
Hey Pete,
Business? What business? There's almost none. I've never seen so many out of work tradesmen in my life. Flint is definetely the armpit of America. I'd leave but I can't afford the gas money to get out. Maybe when gas hits 1$ a gallon...
I hired this guy:
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You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Edited 11/11/2008 5:25 pm by Marv
Good thread!
One thing I'll add is that when you buy a ladder, get one with a decent load rating. I will only buy type 1 or 1A ladders. I weigh close to 250 lbs., and the IIs and IIIs aren't rated for that. Plus the heavier ladders will last a lot longer.
I see so many light weight ladders in customers homes, that I'm amazed there aren't even more ladder related injuries. A customer will sometimes tell me I can use their ladder, but I've been known to drive home to get mine, rather than tempt fate.
Christmas is coming ....
Last year's holiday season seemed full of accidents because of ladders. I remember two stories covered by several Metroplex TV stations.... Both were guys in their late 40's and 50's. Hanging Christmas decorations, one fell and was paralyzed with hopes of it being temporary. The other fellow hit some flower bed curbing and was permanently paralyzed from the waist down....
Two years ago there was a fellow making all the talk shows. He had been in the basement of a new home using one of the 90-degree drills like the Hole-Hawg. As he stood on the ladder, he was pushing the bit above him when the ladder broke. The drilled landed on it back with the bit pointing up and the guy fell on it. The bit went through one of his eyes, eye socket, along the side of the inside of is skull before pushing out the back....
Another fellow from a nearby house heard him screaming, went to see, and got him help. The X-Ray showed the bit's path....
The real problem wasn't the ladder itself, but something we seem to forget. Ladders are "Load rated" not just "Weight rated". The guy's weight was within the ladder's limits, but the added "Load" of using both his arms and legs while pushing against the power drill could have added another hundred pounds...
Tie-off those ladders at the proper angle of distance outward and remember these stories....so you can have some happy holidays this year!
Bill