Replies

1. 
   cabman | Oct 25, 2002 07:17am | #1

   Use a good substrate, put the wood edge on, then laminate it.

   Don't use cheap glue. LockWeld or something else industrial.

1. 
   lees1100 | Oct 25, 2002 07:25am | #2

   what is the best substrate these days.. Thanks for the help

   ISRA# 11265

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   Edited 10/25/2002 12:26:07 AM ET by Lee F. Sutherburg

1. 
   gordsco | Oct 25, 2002 07:48am | #3

   Personaly, I like to use 3/4 G1S birch ply. As far as I know almost all cabinet companies use 5/8 particle board (sometimes called K3 board) as a substate for laminates.

   sometimes board sometimes knot

2. 
   jocobe | Oct 25, 2002 01:46pm | #4

   If water or moisture is not a problem I would use 3/4" Flakeboard or MDF.......much flatter then plywood.......and cheaper! 

1. 
   lees1100 | Oct 25, 2002 04:23pm | #5

   that's exactly what I was the thinking. Actually what I like is the Med-ex version which is suppose to give off less gasses. This counter goes in an L shape so I 'll be doubling up then seaming. Any thoughts on seaming the laminate.

   thanks

   lee

   ISRA# 11265

   If it's worth doing... its worth doing right!!!

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1. 
   jocobe | Oct 25, 2002 05:46pm | #6

   Medex is good stuff.........used it for backsplashes.  The way I seam laminate is with a laminate trimmer router.  I have a 1/4" solid carbide flush cutting router bit.  I overlap both pieces of laminate where the seam is to go.  I then clamp them both tightly to a piece of wood that acts as a straight edge.  Then I follow the straight edge with the router and cut both pieces of laminate at the same time.....guaranteed to fit nicely together.  Before cutting, mark both pieces of laminate with a couple of pencil lines so they can be easily indexed after cutting.  Make sure the laminate seam is staggered from the substrate seam.  I have a laminate seamer router (Betterly), but if you're only making a few tops this way works great!

   John 

2. 
   lees1100 | Oct 25, 2002 06:08pm | #7

   Thanks a lot for the advice !.. any more idea's keep them coming. For some odd reason I developed a phobia about laminate and have avoided it for so many years that I have forgot a lot. With the wood edge I'm thinking about running the wood edge first,  then the laminate out over, then cutting a 45 deg. chamfer so the laminate stops at the edge of the 45 degree coming over the wood edge. What do you think. Also what the best contact cement these days I'm not sure if I'll use latex or the harsh stuff. Any thoughts Also when routing should I back-cut or go with the pull of the router.

   thanks again

   lee 

   ISRA# 11265

   If it's worth doing... its worth doing right!!!

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3. 
   DaveRicheson | Oct 26, 2002 04:28am | #9

   Since you are only doing one top, using one of the edge forming systems may not be worth the time and effort for you. I personally use the Perma-Edge system by WilsonArt. There are a couple of other systems that were reviewed recently in JLC or FWW that are also very good. These systems apply the edging after the laminate, and IMHO produce a nicer end product, because you don't have that dark phenolic edge of the laminate showing when you are finished.

   I use a Bosh laminate seam system for almost all of my work. Lapping and scibe cutting with a straight edge also works, but use a good metal staight edge, or a jointed piece of hardwood.

   What size is the L? Up to 60 inches I would not have a seam because i can get laminate 61 inches wide.

   Dave

4. 
   lees1100 | Oct 26, 2002 04:39am | #10

   I think 60" will make it as a mater of fact. Thats one thing I wanted to check on... the length of the longer side howver is 106" do they sell it longer than 8'.

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5. 
   jeffvermont | Oct 26, 2002 04:53am | #11

   Lee:

   Just a couple of thoughts on top of the other well made points:

   When you are going to put the chamfer on, do not be a lazy slug like I was once and try to cut the chamfer and flush cut the edge in one shot with the chamfer bit.  Not good to say the least.  I hate the weight of particle board, but I like the price.  I usually use plywood because it is so much easier to handle by myself.  I have not had as good luck as some of the other posters with the adhesive sticking to MDF and I hate callbacks as much as anybody.  I do a little bit of all kinds of trim carpentry so counters are just part of what I do, this next project I am working on I am going to spring for this spray adhesive setup which costs about $250.  It looks like a propane tank from a BBQ grill with a spray gun attachment.  No odors and it dries instantly, looks sort of like silly string like the kids use.  Anyway, now you know as much as I do which is not a hell of a lot to work with, good luck.

   Jeff

   "What you don't know, make up!"

6. 
   Adrian | Oct 27, 2002 03:18pm | #21

   Plywood is specifically NOT recommended for a core for any kind of plastic laminated work by either AWI or AWMAC, the two big architectural woodwork bodies....although it is permitted, but not recommended, for countertops in AWMAC, for some reason...I don't have a full AWI Standards manual, so I'm not sure exactly what they say. The two manuals (one U.S and one canadian), are being combined at the next printing, so all of North America except California will usethe same standard. I expect to see plywood specifically not permitted in the future; as it is, in AWMAC, doors and drawer fronts made with a plywood core are specifically excluded from warranty, and there are four paragraphs detailing why. Jibes with my expereince; I've seen several counters with ply where the ply has 'thrown' the laminate right off.

   Not trying to poke anyone that uses plywood; just adding some information.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

7. 
   gordsco | Oct 28, 2002 12:33am | #23

   I've had excellent results installing laminates on finish grades of plywood, but have seen problems with spruce plywood where the plys have splintered and came apart. If I was looking from a technical perspective and had to consider transportation from one end of the country to another in uninsulated containers and possible storage of such materials for several months in a variety of humidities and temperatures ranging fron -40 to +135, I probably wouldn't recommend plywood either. However, I could probably guarantee the integrity of a sheet of G1S fir that I picked up at my local building supply and drove across town. Particle board is a wonderful substrate for plastic laminates but its hard on saw blades, you can bust a sheet in half if you're not careful and I just think plywood holds a better edge.

   sometimes board sometimes knot 

8. 
   gbwood | Oct 26, 2002 04:56am | #12

   Lee- you can get laminate as big as 5  X  12...

   if you run your wood edge first like you said an ogee detail looks good also

   
9. 
   lees1100 | Oct 26, 2002 05:04am | #13

   great on both counts looks real good

   ISRA# 11265

   If it's worth doing... its worth doing right!!!

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10. 
    gbwood | Oct 26, 2002 05:15am | #14

    thanks Lee

11. 
    DaveRicheson | Oct 26, 2002 07:19pm | #17

    Lee, another thing I use is 1/2 dowel rods space about a foot apart to lay the laminate on as I position it over the slab. Dowels present a smaller contact point to the contact cement than flat pieces of wood, and with a slight twist, can be easily pulled out without moving the laminate sheet resting on them. I work from the center outward on straight tops and from the corner each direction on L shapes. Purchase the J-roller mentioned above and you will do just fine.

    Dave

12. 
    lees1100 | Oct 26, 2002 07:32pm | #18

    thanks that's great advice .. you guys are great. were else can you get a refresher course like this. keep it coming

    many thanks

    lee

    ISRA# 11265

    If it's worth doing... its worth doing right!!!

    New!!!   Home Remodeling forum

    Edited 10/27/2002 1:04:46 AM ET by Lee F. Sutherburg

13. 
    Fbart | Oct 27, 2002 07:49am | #19

    Another way to keep the laminate from sticking to the contact cement while positioning it, is to use old vanetian blind slats layed every 2-3" along  the counter top under the laminate.  When you have positioned the laminate, start pulling them out, starting in the center, working towards the ends, pushing down on the laminate as you go.  Just toss the slats on the floor as you go.  The slats last forever, and don't take up much room in the shop between jobs.

14. 
    gordsco | Oct 27, 2002 08:40am | #20

    I use a clean extension cord to keep the laminate away from the substrate, but some like wood or metal strips and swear by them.

    I used to work with this guy who swore by a dozen or so maple strips that looked alot like thin yardsticks. He had a habit of pulling them out from under the laminate in quick succession and whap them with considerable force and a loud "crack" on the new countertop. A couple of Officers broke him of this habit the day he was redoing the counters at the local Police Station, they came out of the back room with their guns drawn.

    sometimes board sometimes knot

15. 
    gordsco | Oct 26, 2002 08:04am | #16

    I don't like MDF for counters, it swells when it gets wet. As for seaming, I butt the two together face up, make sure the faces are up, with a straight edge under the left side and the rightside raised to the same height. clamp them both down securely, and run a flush cutting bit through both ends at the same time, File the burrs off the back edge. Butt the two together to make sure the fit is okay, and lightly mark with pencil strokes to aid in positioning later.

    Plastic laminate is notorious for shrinking slightly and I have a trick I use for keeping butt  joints together. Lay a strip of masking tape across the substrate about 2" away from either joint. After rolling or spreading glue, remove the masking tape and run a light line of white or carpenters glue where the masking tape was. I've had excellent results with this technique. 

    sometimes board sometimes knot

2. 
   UncleDunc | Oct 25, 2002 11:57pm | #8

   If moisture is a risk, you can get baltic birch ply with exterior glue. It should be plenty flat.

2. 
   brianspages | Oct 26, 2002 08:03am | #15

   we use 3/4" high density particle board for the best tops.  3/4" particle board for most...  HDPB will make for a stronger support for a wood trim (ie. mortisse and tenon joint).

   3M is reputed to make the best contact cement amongst my friends.  i believe it may be available in a spray can???

   you should maybe consider picking up a J-roller for applying pressure on the laminate once placed on the substrate.  otherwise, you will have to push a 2x4 wrapped in cloth over your top and edges.  

   measure walls on opposite ends at front and back lengths of counter position to determine your cutting line.  for endsplash installations,determine that your edge is straight and sand. you will probably first have to make adjustments with a belt sander.  create a slight back bevel from top to bottom on the edge so that the counter surface and the splashes amke contact along a thin line on the top. pre-drill holes in finished endsplashes, set against edge of counter, and drill a short hole into counter edge, remove, apply an adhesive of matching color (HD sells colored laminate repair material suitable for this purpose) to the edge.  With the screw tips re-exposed, reinsert the splash (using the screws and holes in counter edge as a guide), and drive the screws home.  wipe off excess adhesive.  miters are clamped together from underneath after applying the colored adhesive on the edges.

   counter installation requires preinstalling a 5/8" buildup platform when counters are installed on frameless cabinets. 

   those are my thoughts,

   brian

3. 
   r_ignacki | Oct 27, 2002 09:02pm | #22

   a technique I've seen for tight seams is, apply the one sheet, then on the other sheet, remove your first dowel spacer, press down on the first three inches or so, at your seam, leave a dowel in, then take out the rest normally, the idea is to create a slight bubble, then take your roller and roll out the bubble toward the seam.

   listening for the secret.......searching for the sound...