My neighbor asked me to come over and look at his floor. He showed me where his self-installed flooring had buckled in front of the return air vent. My best guess was that the air moving over the floor here had pulled enough moisture from the slab to cause the problem. The house is about 25 years old, and the drain lines penetrate the slab about 3 feet from where this happened.
I told him that I would post here to see if anyone had an idea of how to correct the moisture problem before replacing the flooring.
john
Replies
Most laminate floors require a vapor barrier (6 mil plastic I believe) laid down before the floor is installed.
Did he do that?
Rich Beckman
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Rich, that is a good question and I do not think he did. He said he used a thick foam pad...the company that he bought it from went out of business and the mfr. actually delivered his order.
My only involvement was to trim around his walls when the floor expanded more than the instructions said it would. He talked to some installer who told him that he needed more expansion room than they called for.
Can he put some 6 mil plastic under this area? I told him to cut the tongue and groove off before he puts the replacement down. It is only about 6-8 sf area that buckled. I had suggested he put something down and maybe seal the bottom with shellac or something.
John
the company that he bought it from went out of business
I wonder why!?...
...I told him to cut the tongue and groove off before he puts the replacement down....
Laminate flooring requires the tounge and groove to keep it together. You can't remove it. I don't understand why you suggested that.
Hey, Don. If you can replace a piece of tongue and groove flooring in the middle of a floor without cutting off the tongue and/or groove, I would like to see that!!
A Wilsonart rep showed us at a trade show how to replace a piece of laminate in the middle of a floor, and he cut the tongue and groove off. Trick was - he glued the replacement piece when he installed it. Not that I would say it is as good as the original installation, but how else would you propose to do that?
Thanks in advance for your reply.
Bryan
"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
Edited 3/16/2007 10:38 pm ET by BryanKlakamp
I wasn't thinking that a piece of laminate floor could be replaced in the middle without removing the T&G. I was thinking that all of the pieces from the end back to the damaged area would need to be removed and re-installed. There should be no need for cutting since he would just replace whole pieces.
I've only installed 3 laminate floors, so I'm far from an expert, but it seems to me that once the T&G is removed, there won't be enough surface area to glue the 2 pieces together. AND, it has to be done in place. It's not like it can be be clamped in the workshop while it dries.
On the other hand, it certainly can't hurt to try because if it doesn't work, re-installing the necessary planks is still an option.
It will be interesting to find out how the repair turned out.
Harrisdog, let us know how it you did it.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
I will let everyone know...maybe even post some pictures...I always forget that part.
Happy St. Patrick's day.
John
"He said he used a thick foam pad."It is common for use of the "thick foam pad" to still require a vapor barrier. The last floor I installed noted in large type on the package that no underlayment was necessary as it was already attached to the flooring. But once the package was opened, the instructions made it clear that a vapor barrier was required.Not too many people bother to read the instructions."He talked to some installer who told him that he needed more expansion room than they called for."That's interesting. My experience is that the laminate floors need less room than the instructions call for."Can he put some 6 mil plastic under this area? I told him to cut the tongue and groove off before he puts the replacement down. It is only about 6-8 sf area that buckled"I have no experience repairing laminate floors. But I would definitely put a vapor barrier down anywhere that I had the floor up and there was no vapor barrier.Cutting the tongue and groove off doesn't sound so good. There are situations where one has to plane down the ridge the the tongue snaps over in order to push two pieces straight together. But then the joint should be glued.With a vapor barrier down, I don't see the point to the shellac. If sealing the bottom of the floor worked, seems like one of the manufacturers would be doing it.Now it might be a good idea to seal the edges with a good caulk (good application for lexel caulk).
Rich BeckmanThis signature line intentionally left blank.
MY NEIGHBOR ALSO HAD THIS PROBLEM WITH LAMINATE ON A SLAB AFTER MUCH SEARCHING BY HIS INSURANCE CO ADJUSTER THEY FOUND IT CAME FROM HIS A/C-HEATING SYSTEM THAT WAS LEAKING
ZEEYA
Any wood product will expand and buckle if it gets wet or takes on excess moisture from the air. It could be that there was condensation from the concrete, and if there was no vapor barrier in place, the laminate absorbed the moisture, causing it to buckle.
I removed a wood floor that had buckled due to a leak in the water line to the refrigerator. It raised about 3/4" right in front of the frig. I ended up removing the entire floor, and installing underlayment so that a new vinyl floor could be installed.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
Check the spacing at the floors perimiter. If he didn't leave enough room for expansion, the floor will buckle. Check between other areas where expansion might cause a problem.
May neighbors respect You, and troubles neglect You.
Gord
The floor had actually buckled once and that was the only work I did at the house, cut the perimeter so that there was enough room for expansion after it had buckled. My title is a little misleading here, the floor boards actually cupped severely right in front of the return air vent. They cupped so much that you can see the complete tongue on about three boards, and several more have opened up enough to leave quite a gap, but just in this area.
john
Sounds as though there is some serious moisture issue in the slab. Pull up the floor and then what?
Sump pump?May neighbors respect You, and troubles neglect You.
Gord
Thanks to everyone who replied. When I said to cut off the little tongue and groove (bottom of the groove actually) it was because that was the only way I could think to get the pieces back down w/o removing the whole floor. And I would glue it back to the neighboring pieces.
The way this set up actually works is that the flooring was stopped after it passed under the doorway where the air-handler (hope that is the correct term) is located. The pipes that do penetrate the slab do not pass through the laminate which is about 12" away. I think I will just go ahead and install some plastic sheeting under the area before I replace the laminate. My neighbor is a stand-up guy, but does not have the skills or the tools (Fein Multimaster or plane) to do this with. As for my thoughts about cutting off the tongue to start with, I had to do the same thing to a couple of squares of parquet at my house today where I needed to replace them. Of course, since they were glued to the floor, it worked just fine. The laminate will just be playing it by ear.
For most wood and wood-based products, moisture will cause expansion, so the product will tend to be concave on the dry side. If indeed airflow is the culprit here, it's because it dried out the top side of the flooring. But it would be odd for a return air duct to cause this -- more likely a heat duct would. (And why is a return air duct near the floor?)Of course, it's also possible that the slab is unusually wet in that area, causing the curling.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Is the vent through the floor? If so, did the register "pin" the flooring and not give it room to expand?
Air moving over the floor would tend to dry it out, not draw moisture in.
Before pulling out the flooring, tape some plastic over the curled area and see if it flattens out.
1. Did he give sufficient expansion space around the room. 1/4" - 3/8", more if it is an extremely large room.
2. Foam underlay with vapour barrier if the laminate floor was installed over concrete.
3. Has the floor been "pinched" somewhere, restricting the floors naturall movement. ie: to much pressure from a baseboard or door jamb.
4. Not enough play around a floor vent or cold air return.
5. Water damage? If so, find the source.
Chances are one of these is causing your problem.
Dave
I believe that the expansion space is now about 3/4" or greater. This was put down about 2 years ago. It buckled once and the floor was jammed against the wall which is when he asked me how to cut the flooring. It is a fair size floor, about 20' x 20'.
This is Texas, and we often have return air vents located at floor level...not sure if I have seen one elsewhere, so it is definitely common here. Can't remember about Fla. or Ok. where I have also resided.