Replies

1. 
   luvmuskoka | Sep 09, 2003 10:14pm | #1

   Laminate flooring sucks.

   Get a hardwood floor pro to look at the old floors and make a determination.

   Ditch

2. 
   gecko | Sep 10, 2003 12:40am | #2

   Here’s a tip... DO NOT use laminate flooring. In my eye, and many others it’s just like that old linoleum that was made to look like tile. It is not fooling anyone. ESPESIALLY in an old house.

1. 
   pino | Sep 10, 2003 12:43am | #3

   I second that emotion.

   BTW, I too thought my hardwood floors were beyond repair. With alot of work and a little luck, they now look great.

3. 
   andybuildz | Sep 10, 2003 02:16am | #4

   Laminate flooring????????? So that means you really don't care all that much, right?

   Seems to me if you have a hardwood floor it should be able to be refinished....if not than use hardwood strips over it as you said or try a floating hardwood floor, but laminate??????? Don't ever show us pictures if you do that.....lol

   Be really floored

                        andy

   Edit: Oh yeh, one other thought....after you sand the floor you could get rolls of butcher block formica to glue down  : )

    The way we regard death is critical to the way we experiance life.

   When your fear of death changes, the way you live your life changes.

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

   
   

   ---

   Edited 9/9/2003 7:18:28 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)

4. 
   WayneL5 | Sep 10, 2003 02:24am | #5

   I'll chime in with a different opinion, so you get a balanced answer.  This is the internet, though, so you get what you pay for!

   All the available flooring products have their advantages, and applications for which they are the best solution.  Laminate has the following advantages.

   • It's much easier to install than hardwood flooring or tile;
   • It's unaffected by spills and standing water as hardwood would be;
   • It's thinner, so it can be used when height buildup is an issue;
   • It can be walked on the next day;
   • It is extremely resistant to wear.  Mine is 3 years old and there is not the slightest mark on it, even in the mud room or under the kitchen chairs, even in direct sunlight;
   • There are no open seams or chamfers to catch dirt like hardwood, or grout joints like tile.
   • There are a lot of beautiful colors and patterns.

   Some disadvantages are:

   • Like you anticipate, it requires a flat substrate.  The manufacturer should be able to quote specifications;
   • It would not be good where lots of water, from say, a flood, could get underneath, such as a bathroom;
   • Some folks don't like the look.

   Since you are doing an older home, I think you have a valid question about applicability, which I think the manufacturers can answer.  The aesthetic decision is a personal one, and it depends on how authentic a look you want.  If the rest of the home is charmingly authentic then the look my not go well, but if the home is crisp and clean then it may do fine.  After all, indoor plumbing, electric lighting, and Corian countertops aren't "historical" for many homes (none of them in my old neighborhood), but none of us would accept a thunder jug and outhouse.

   The store should be able to give you references.  You could make appointments to see the various options you're considering with your own eyes in context.

1. 
   andybuildz | Sep 10, 2003 02:38am | #6

   Wayne

              Nice answer....very conservative in many ways.....

   Hardened carps hate the stuff unless its in a house that one doesn't care about soul......no matter what...sorry.........JMHO

   Be real!

             andy The way we regard death is critical to the way we experiance life.

   When your fear of death changes, the way you live your life changes.

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

1. 
   Willy50 | Sep 10, 2003 02:56am | #7

   I just put a small add on to my kitchen which required putting a new floor over the whole kitchen. After alot of comparing I went with the Wilsonart tile (Sicilian Slate)

   No its not tile but its pretty close and has alot of advantages as previously mentioned. I had it installed by an experienced flooring guy. He did a nice job but had special clamps that made it go easy.  My floor is not flat, an old lake cottage which has insufficent floor joists, it leans and slopes but after all is said and done, it came out great. We have little kids and the wear factor we are hoping is real !!

   Good luck

   Anyone give me a crash course on attaching jpeg photos and I will send you a couple ones I just took.

1. 
   wrick2003 | Sep 10, 2003 03:34am | #8

        Here's a good one. 

        Some really good friends of ours like to do their own remodelling. They are in the banking/ insurance industry. Really nice people. They make some occasionally uninformed choices when it comes to their house. I've tried repeatedly to help them, to no avail.

        They have a pretty little four square, built in the twenties. I told them that there is a 99% chance of hardwood being under their carpet. They pull the carpet up. The floor is complete piece to piece from one end of the house to the other.

        They thought putting all of the furniture in the garage for a week was too much to deal with. So they had PERGO INSTALLED OVER THE ENTIRE POTENTIALLY BEAUTIFUL OAK FLOOR. 

        It's very hard to hear someone talk about preserving the beauty and originality of their old home, while bouncing from room to room.

        Good Luck     rg 

1. 
   gecko | Sep 10, 2003 04:20am | #9

   That is a familiar story. I know several people who do stuff like that. If they ever sell the house the next people will think there is something wrong with the oak floors and likely not take out the pergo until it falls apart for fear of having to replace it.

2. 
   wrick2003 | Sep 10, 2003 05:59am | #12

         And they must bring home plenty to have covered the cost of the work, AND the inconvenience.  Apparently, having a little money does not mean a little taste.

            rg

3. 
   JoeyB | Sep 10, 2003 04:59am | #10

    All of my work is in early 1900's houses. Laminate flooring (IMHO) never looks good. I put one in a kitchen once when I worked for a guy and swore I would never do it again. It just cheapens the look of the house. Hardwood is the only way to go.

2. 
   DougU | Sep 10, 2003 05:53am | #11

   Andy

   I agree with you 100% on the laminate!

   When a realtor that I was doing work for had someone suggest laminate floor responded with, "if you think it looks like real wood then you havent looked all that close".

   Be real wood

   Doug

5. 
   teasea | Sep 11, 2003 02:27pm | #13

   laminate flooring is just like vinyl siding,cheap crap!

   o sorry

6. 
   IanDG | Sep 11, 2003 04:16pm | #14

   I'm not buying into the laminate debate but there's one thing in your post that no-one seems to have picked up on.
   It isn't normal for a floor to "expand and push up" no matter how old it is --- are you sure you haven't got a source of moisture somewhere? Damp, unventilated crawl-space maybe?
   It wants checking out before you go laying any sort of floor on top.

   IanDG

1. 
   NormKerr | Sep 11, 2003 07:30pm | #15

   besides the 'vinly look'(it is too uniform) of laminate flooring, there is another demerit that has not been mentioned yet:

   laminate floors tend to 'float' over the subfloor, several that I have walked on just felt "not stuck down to the floor", along with the associated noises that the floating floor produced when you walk over it. Felt like cheap stuff not really attached to the house.

   Not an acceptable alternative to real wood, unless you don't care.

   Norm "Opinionated" Kerr

1. 
   skiman | Sep 13, 2003 06:23am | #16

   alright I get it you don't like laminate floors.  But what about your wives or girlfriends?   How about your dogs or kids?  I bet they love the amount of abuse a laminate floor will take.  Of course it looks fake.  Thus the name of  the product.  I don't think the point of laminate flooring is to trick people into thinking it is hardwood, I think it is more of a durability issue.  I myself don't like that hollow sound it makes when it is walked on.  But you know what?  I'm not going to cringe everytime a chair or a toy or my dog comes sliding into the room.  thanks for the criticism though.

   Can anyone tell me more about the possible moisture problem in the basement.

   It is a full basement, with a stone foundation.  Is it something as simple as poor ventilation?

   And by the way I do care about my house!

1. 
   NormKerr | Sep 16, 2003 02:33pm | #17

   about moisture in a basement, put a dehumidifier down there, the warm, moist summer air condenses water on the cool surfaces (stone walls, etc.) and a RH% above 60~70 will foster mold spores and other nasties. Typical, un-dehumidified basement spaces can easily reach 100%, especially if there are sources for outside air to get in (seal up all around your rim-joist, which probably leaks like a sieve in an old house - doing this well will also help to reduce your heating bills as you eliminate a big source of 'take-up' air that wastes your heat as the roof leaks the warmer, lighter air (that you paid to heat) out the top.

   To confirm that water vapor is not coming up out of the ground, put a plastic sheet on the floor for a week and then check under it for a damp spot. If you find this is the case then you've got outside water problems (a de-humidifier will help, but more remediation is needed).

   Always make sure that all of your roof runnoff is captured in gutters, and that those downspouts exit at least 10 ft from the house to prevent rain water from collecting near the foundation and seeping back into the house. If you have trouble with big trees near your house, and gutter clogging, get some kind of 'gutter topper' or gutter helmet, these work very well (in my experience) to keep the woodsies out and the water in.

   A stone foundation is basically pourous, but keeping the rain water well away will keep it dry. A dehumidifier is needed in almost all basements of houses that don't have central air (which tends to de-hum the basement a little bit). Older houses basements may need this more than newer ones due to the many sources of air leakage - seal these up.

   Hope this helps.

   Norm

1. 
   KenFisher | Sep 18, 2003 03:59am | #18

   "It's unaffected by spills and standing water as hardwood would be"

   That stuff is so sensitive to moisture it's ridiculous. I dabbled in it for about a year and said good riddens. Critters hate the stuff. I've seen some older pets that become inactive because the floor is so darned slippery. They find a safe place and no longer attempt running for the doorbell etc.

   Now can someone explain why everytime I post the thumbs up thingie goes on? You know..rate this thread. This dates back to an older PC too. Go figure.

2. 
   WayneL5 | Sep 18, 2003 04:29am | #19

   The thumbs up thingy appears because it's the default setting.  To turn it off, click on My Forums directly above these messages, then go down to My Preferences.  Then scroll down to where it says

   Mark discussions as a favoriteWould you like discussions that you post messages in to be automatically marked as "high interest"?

   and uncheck the Yes box.

   I won't comment further on laminate floors!

2. 
   Dinosaur | Sep 18, 2003 05:48am | #20

   Earlier tonight I put together an $18,000 quote for a full basement finish including new bathroom from zero. The hubby HO wanted quotes on 1x4 knotty pine T&G flooring, 3" mill-run hardwood strip flooring, and pre-finished v-joint hardwood (not laminate).

   The wifey HO wanted a quote on Pergo.

   Here are the numbers on the materials. For 550 SF (this is my cost):

   1X4 T&G Knotty Pine (must be sanded, stained and varnished)  $1063 (10% waste)

   1x3 mill run maple strip flooring (must be sanded, stained and varnished) $1863.77 (3% waste)

   1x3 pre-finished maple strip flooring (nail it and hail it)  $3002.45 (3% waste)

   Pergo-type glueless laminate (set it and regret it) $948.50 (0% waste)

   The waste figures are the mill's or manufacturer's.

   The knotty pine will wear and pock and swell and shrink and generally look like it was installed 20 years ago in a couple of years, sooner if you've got a dog. It will marry itself to your old house and make itself at home and keep your bare feet from freezing when you go downstairs to pi$$ in the middle of the night. It'll last between 50 and 75 years, depending on how often it's refinished.

   The difference in price between the unfinished and pre-finished maple is about $1140; figure to pay yourself that much to sand and stain and lay on three or four coats of Varathane Diamond Finish Polyurethane. Should take you about three days unless you're a klutz or the house is humongous. That's paying yourself a bit under 50 bucks an hour. Not bad. Either floor will stand up to hard knocks well, will wear like iron, and will swell and shrink less than the pine but still work some. It will last between 75 and a hundred years, also depending on how many refinishings are done in that time peroid.

   The laminate will require an underlayment, cost unknown (I'm waiting for the info in the morning before I finish the estimate off). It will tap and click and be slippery and icy cold in the winter and will never become a spiritual part of the house because it's made of resin fillers and ink. It's basically hard-shell wallpaper for the floor. If it gets wet in a minor flood (washing machine overflows, kid plugs the overflow drain on the bathtub to see what'll happen, sewer line backs up) it'll self destruct in 24 hours. Under normal conditions it will last about 10-15 years before it becomes scuffed and dull and the print job starts to wear off. It cannot be refinished. You must replace it. Therefore the laminate will cost you two complete replacements before you would even have to think about replacing the pine, and 4 replacements before your hardwood would start making you wonder if it had done it's time. Add the costs of those replacements to the initial cost. Figure in inflation.

   Also figure that at some point within that 45 or 75 years your knees are gonna tell you to hire some young buck to do the installation. Figure in the labour on some of those replacements.

   You will also have to buy a new blade for your chop saw after you've finished the job. Add another $100 to your cost.

   And the resale value of your house will be lowered if you install garbage like Pergo, because anyone with taste will figure as job # 1 having to rip it out and install a real floor.... Add that loss to your cost as well.

   (I think I'll include a copy of this post with my estimate tomorrow for hubby to show wifey.... Duck, Dinosaur! She throws a mean frying pan!!)

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

1. 
   andybuildz | Sep 18, 2003 12:22pm | #21

   Dino

          Excellent post!

   Be well

                 andy The way we regard death is critical to the way we experiance life.

   When your fear of death changes, the way you live your life changes.

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

2. 
   johnnyd | Sep 18, 2003 04:13pm | #22

   WOW!

   I'm going to show this to MY DW.

3. 
   Dinosaur | Sep 18, 2003 04:40pm | #23

   Just watch out for Flying Pans....

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

4. 
   johnnyd | Sep 18, 2003 04:49pm | #24

   I only get those when I don't share the realities of why I want to do something a certain way.  You know:

   "Sigh, I don't have time to go into that now....trust me" (DW picks up frying pan)

   You know the rest...

   OR...."{detailed description quoting exact figures, options 1 - 5 etc)"  That is stopped mid-stream with: "I don't need to know ALL the details...just go ahead"

   Then the frying pan comes up much later after the job is done, and she conveniently "forgets" that she refused to discuss the details.

5. 
   Dinosaur | Sep 18, 2003 10:15pm | #25

   Blow-up dolls don't throw frying pans--unless you buy the deluxe model. Or so I've heard, heh, heh, heh....

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?