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iza
I’m recovering from a car accident and therefor have time to lounge around the ol’ cybermachine (actually, I should be working on my business plan for spec homebuilding career switch, but this is research, isn’t it?)and I’m sure running into a lot of familiar faces around these various posts. You know who you are. Where the hell do you guys get the time, ye demi-gods of time management?
Anyway, iza, if I were you, Iwould walk, no run, away from this crap.I wouldn’t put it into somebody’s house I don’t like, let alone my own. The stuff barely stands up to coddled use over the short term, over the long term you’re wasting money. Wood has about a three or four hundred year track record, nothing to sneeze at. As for keeping a wood floor quiet over living space, I’d be tempted to go floating floor, the type of instasllation you use with wood over radiant heating in floor. More money yes, but it is your house.
quietly yours, cybergreg
Replies
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Pergo scratches EASILY. Others are better.
*Is there a brad you would reccommend? We are considering Wilsonart laminate. How does that seem to rate?
*Whoops, missed the 'n' in brand.
*I recommend Senco "brads."Seriously, though, go to the stores and take your keys, rip into those samples and decide for yourself if they can take any kind of punishment. I found pergo to be the worst in this respect. If the store doesn't like this, walk on.I normally install T & G flooring. I haven't done many of these floors, because I have not found any that can hold up to scratching REAL WELL. But with actual wood, you can always sand it, right?Good luck. Pergo started this, but they may have some catching up to do. It's a good idea, just needs a little refinement.MD
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iza -- we just looked at a floating laminate called Decades by Shaw (the tile people). We took our heavy pocket knives and tried to scratch the surface -- pretty tough to do, if at all. Also, the finish is "flatter" (not as fake/shiny) as other brands. 15-year warranty, and OK for kitchen/baths. We can get it installed, whatever the foam/padding/ for $5.50/sf.
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Another brand to consider is "formica". Personally I wouldn't use any of it. stick to real wood
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Here in Western Washington you can get 2+1/4" oak installed for 6.75/sq. ft and when it gets ugly in 15 years, you can refinish it. Can you do that with that laminate floor? - jb
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JB: since I'm a hippie now, as well as you, should we sing:
"Ain't nothin' like the real thing Baby?"
MD
I don't know whether to laugh or cry anymore!
*That is still alot of money for those of us just getting started on our first homes. If we could afford real wood (which we can't) we would definitely opt for that. Since we can't (at least at this point, we would add wood later when we have a bit more cash...we can't all have every feature available when we build), we ant to know what is the best non-carpet, tile, wood alternative, i.e., what is the best laminate?
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The reason I asked about refinishing is at 5.50/sq. ft laminate seems like a pretty expensive throw away floor to me. The ones I've seen look good, but I don't know if they can be redone later. So I asked. - jb
*Kirsten, I just put in a Pergo floor a couple of weeks ago without incident. I've defended the stuff in the past for limited uses, specifically where there's a chance of moisture. The kitchen is the one place I really like it. Wood, unless you maintain it perfectly, can't hold up to the wear and water, plus can't be cleaned hygenically. But wood is a religion for some folks here, so I must tread softly. :)Scratches? I don't know what these guys are doing. I put a 40 sf section to try out, then ended up gutting the entire room and installing new cabinets, framing, new ext. door, etc. Pergo looks fine, and I do drop tools now and then. Only scratch came from my skidding on a fresh Sawzall blade. Now, we usually kick off our shoes inside and don't have grit/rocks inside -- that will do in any floor. A quick damp mop and the Pergo looks fine -- for what it is. Yes, I prefer wood.If you're doing the LR/DR area w/o rambunctious kids, high-speed dogs and the like -- I'd find an attractive real wood laminate floating floor and take good care of it -- e.g., pads under furniture legs, frequent cleaning, etc. Pergo is too expensive as a "temp" floor and their "whisperwalk" / accessories are astronomical. Plus I think large expanses would look too sterile. (I think sterile is a good look in the kitchen!)If you want to hear more, search the archives -- MANY discussions of Pergo et al.
*Andrew -- is Pergo a floating or glue-down? If floating, would it be hard to replace a badly damaged plank?
*Just in case someone is interested we get 3/4" select red oak strip flooring installed for $5.75 a sq ft (turnkey) here in NC.
*Andrew,You live in the Colony, right?What brand of High Pressure Laminate did they use in the 1700-1900's period?Don't even tell me about Summer Kitchens, I've already heard about that and cholesterol and second-hand tobacco smoke and carpet off-gassing and Corvairs and Greenhouse Gases and slippery sidewalks and high-risk intersections and cell-phone addicts and Hellman's left out in the sun and radiation from CRT's and certification for Hole Hawg users and buckle yer seatbelts and buying the old house with non-code riser/tread ratios and power lines passing thru trees and parents who are hunters and households who harbor guns to shoot animals and parents who don't lock up their sporting weapons and children who are out of control and spouses who use weapons of destruction to shoot their spousal-mates peckers off and Rosie O'donnele who fixates on breasts and Oprah who determines we all have a need for a therapist and the American Public's right to know that he got a hummer while in or out of office, and whether or not Pete Rose ever was a betting man, and whether or not Marg Schott ever had sex with a St. Bernard or whether Marv Albert got his rocks off dressing up as Carmen Viega???????????Did I misspell anything? I'm not the best speller you know.Sorry I drifted off topic.If it were me, I would choose a flooring that I could sand out all the imperfections at least three times during a generation. Real wood gets it for me. Everything else is a compromise.jeff
*I want whatever Jeff is drinking.
*Tina, you missed it earlier, but Jeff is actually Neutron Man, invulnerable to environmental or physical assault.Hey, building is always about compromise. Like I said, I prefer wood aesthetically, but when $ and practicality and sanitation etc. concerns come in it gets harder. I want to use wood upstairs, but do I (1) get solid planks of something run-of-the-mill (no!!! not oak AGAIN!) or (2) get a beautiful veneer product that requires me to strangle my child when he/she does something horrible to it?As for the rant, I guess Jeff one of them AWM's. I hear it's a result of testosterone poisoning... :)
*Floating. Yes, very difficult. Others here have done it, not I. I'm sure it wouldn't look perfect and would probably just rearrange the furniture or get an extra area rug. :)I speculate that something harsh enough to mess up the Pergo would mess up a veneer board to its core as well. For tiny dings I've played with the idea of wood pencil and epoxy ... but I don't have any dings yet.Absolutely, solid wood is the best at coming back from the dead again and again ... without a scratch.
*The problem with reading FHB (more like an addiction) and reading this board is that we see and hear about all these neat ways to do things with great materials. Then reality hits. Anyone who's followed the progress of our house on this board knows we started out wanting endblock flooring...bullet-proof, yes. Affordable, no. Hardwood is almost equally expensive out here. The arguments about the cost of replacing a floor such as laminate in the future versus biting the bullet and spending more now with option to refinish later are fine... assuming the cash is there now. Ain't always so, right iza? We have same problem. The difference between installed/ready-to-go prices for laminate or vinyl and hardwood are just too much. It comes down to the hamburger vs. steak argument. And I still maintain that a "well-built" hamburger can be just as satisfying as a "well-built" steak. Speaking of which, it's time to get off the soapbox and go feed the cows....
*Andrew - you bring up a good idea. As a photographer, I have lots of materials that cover/color dings in frames...bet they would work on dings in laminate,too,eh?
*Truth told, the Pergo is actually photographs of real wood.I'm thinking of getting a digital camera ... it's easy to edit images with digital ... now if they just had digital floors.P.S. Sounds like you should do with 12"x12" vinyl.
*Almost every flooring mfr. has a laminate floor now. We did a Bruce with sq. tiles (12 x 12) laid it out five ways from Sunday (sat the crew down first and even watched their video) Any ways , we had all the clamps and wedges and right angles and chalk lines and 60 years experience between the 3 of us and the dam stuff laid square, and we glued the joints and we put the 3m Blue tape on the joints and everything was hunky - dory. You look over three squares away and the dam thing is open. So much for micro-finish edges.Lessons learned:don't use a light colored pattern with squares don't use squares if you can use planksdon't use floating floors if yu can use the real thingSay, you know what makes a nice kitchen floor .3/4 t&g subfloor, red rosin paper, 1/2" P&TS underlayment nailed off 6" oc with ring shank nails, and a high quality vinyl no wax. Top this off with a ceramic sanitary cove base and a 2" accent cap and you've got an easy maintenance, relatively low-cost, good looking, quiet floor. (Kitchens & baths) Hardwood in the living areas. ($6 - $8 installed and finished in RI)and carpet in the bedrooms.Save the floating laminates for the remodel jobs that don't want the dust and inconvenience of installing and finishing hardwood. Even the prefinished hardwoods are better than the laminates. But sometimes the floating laminate is the only one that will do the job.
*Mike. Thanks for ideas. How's Rhode Island? I miss the coast. Worked in Providence.
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The laminate we are looking at (Wilsonart) is under $3/sq. ft. at cost (we are members of a buyers club, so we can get it at cost). Since we plan to install it ourselves (something I doubt we could easily do with "real" wood), we will definitely save $$. I don't see how spending 2X as much for wood would save us. We plan to cover about 600-700 sq. ft. As I said before, we plan to have the laminate for 10 years or so, then we will upgrade, as we will for many portions of our house. It seems more important to spend the money we have on the structural part of our home; we can always improve upon cosmetics later. Besides, if we do find that the laminate holds up well (we have small cats, not large dogs), we have lost nothing, and we don't have to worry about refinishing it.
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I know the manufacturers all claim laminate flooring as acceptable for kitchens and baths, but consider this, if there is a small gap between boards and a void in a glue joint, say near a water source, what do you think will happen to the particle board that the laminate is adhered to?Anybody ever seen hdpb when it's been exposed to water for short periods of time? I'd think twice about this material for a bath.
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I'm with you, Reinhard. It's just a time bomb. Andrew, you must be awfully careful with that Pergo. I know of people who loved it until one day they looked and WHOA! Scratches everywhere!
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I caulked the perimeter in wet areas. I also try to set things up so slow leaks with become evident quickly -- the cabinet under the sink should not be a scary place that no one wants to go. As for scratches, well, you do have to take care of it. It's like when CD's came out, we were told they were indestructible. After a while, having rubbed them clean on my shirt every time, I realized they were covered with scratches and i couldn't sell them!
*Kirsten - if you read TinaG's post (7.0) I think you will see my point. - jb
*i have found that the pergo is a good floor for the value . My only complaint would be that because the flooring itself is fairly cheap they really hit you hard on the accesories.The glue and underlay are expensive and the mouldings are out extreamly expensive and cheaply made
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I had to compromise too. I gathered about 10 samples from different manufacturerers and subjected them to my "kid test". I took a heavy butter knife, held if up about 4' and point down and dropped it on each sample. Pergo suffered the worst damage by far. The dent itself was fairly small but there was also a delaminated area about the size of a quarter around the dent. Looked really bad in the light.
Only one sample suffered very small damage. It's called Fibo-Tresbo. The kicker is that it was the cheapest of all. $3.00 sq ft, including glue and foam. As for squareness: My floor runs through 3 different rooms and a hall that are all tied together. Over 28' I got *no* gaps or out of squareness. Even in a couple of situations where I had to run through two doors and meet up on the other side.
It's only been in since April but it still looks new. If it lasts long enough to get the teenagers out of the house I'll be happy.
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Nice, scientific! never heard of the product, of course...
*sounds interesting. got a link or phone number for info?
*Try this....http://www.norskeskogflooring.com/fibo/
*Thanks. sounds interesting.
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Dont buy Pergo! We spent $16oo 2 years ago to do dining room & kitchen, and now were going to rip it up and tile it. Pots and pans are going to ruin the floor if dropped, and chairs/foot traffic scratch the bejesus out of it! How can Pergo say its great for wet locations, and Plankett says to avoid kits, baths, entrys when theyre identical?
*TomTTM,I've been saying the same thing about Pergo. I'm constantly surprised to see so much support on these threads for a product that its copiers/competitors left in the dust several years ago. MD
*Pergo sells it's flooring with & without the scratch resistant surface. It's about 50 cents a sqft cheaper without, they call it the Family line. Is this the Pergo that all the complaints are about?
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Well, I got down on hands and knees to look at the Pergo that I've put through hell, dropping tools on it and carrying maybe 100 lbs of bricks out the door over (demo'd chimney debris). Still looks fine. I'm not saying it's the best (much too expensive no matter what), but I'm perplexed by all the bad reports too.
Now I'm nervous to use it, though I haven't had any problems! See, i do listen to you guys.
*I used a floor called "oakridge" It is a 3/8 pre fab hardwood. I completed the floor about 1 1/2 years ago. Within the first 6 months there was very bad depressions from the dogs claws. Now they are all over the floor. Also if you drop anything on this brand of floor it will dent. Save your self the headache, and go with a 3/4 hardwood..I have heard nothing good about 3/8 hardwood.
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On laminate floors, Pergo makes a commercial line called Pergo Publiq. Of courese it''l be more (I think it installs for $8 to $9 a sq.ft. in Cleveland) but it is very durable, used in malls and restaurants. But guess what, despite their claim a mfr's rep. told me he still wouldn't use it where there's any chance of saturation. A glass spilled in a dining room is fine, but in a kitchen? andrew's caulking solution makes sense, but I have to agree with reinhard, if there's any chance for water to get in, it'll find it.
On 3/8" floors, not sure about 'oakridge' but Hartco's 3/8" floors have an acrylic inpregnated finsh, also quite durable and color through. And if it straches, (and all things will) at least its real wood! Get out the sand paper & steel wool and under that wood finsh you'll find what? more wood, plus the color's still there.
But if your considering 3/4" wood flooring, check out victoria's question on refinishing softwood floors. The responses were unanimus. If a softwood floor still has value after 100 years bet what a good hardwood floor will do for the value of your house both in appeal and $. ( by the way my yellow pine kitchen floor is 85 yrs. old, needs refininshing bad. But with some work and a good finsh I'll bet it'll be around another 85, wiil Pergo?)
Natural floors require maintainance, yes. (A wax finsh will show scratches less but dirty faster and reqire more, but simple maintainence. A polyurethane floor will be more durable but scratch repair is a little more difficult). But as everyone in my older neighborhood is discovering after tearing out their old carpeted, vinyl and linoleum floors, with a little work their original wood floors will last several more decades. If your not concerened about that far in the future, I can get you some vinyl siding!?
*We recently installed a GC's wood (Malaysian Mahogony) overe a radiant heat subfloor. The wood had aclimated in the house for about 2 weeks. The floor was installed correctly. 1 week later, gaps appeared from 1/16 to 1/8 inch. What to do? What happens in the spring when the windows are open and the humidity is 99%?
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Tina a gal on the ranch needs a knife tuff enough to scratch plastic. Support my local economy by buying a
b Benchmade Mel Pardue
folder with ATS 34 steel if you want a tuff knife.
Seriously this is a knife making center here and some of the best knives are built within a few miles of Portland OR.
As regards laminate flooring. I'm visually monitoring a busy hardware store showroom floor here in Portland. Chown hardware put it in a couple of years ago and it is holding up reasonably well so far.
Incidently this is a first class store with more door knobs, locks, and pulls than you're likely to see elsewhere.
Real 3/4" thick, nail it down, sand and finish it is my choice every time.
joe d
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We are considering a laminate floor for our living/dining room combo. We are not sure which brand to choose - at first we thought Pergo but we've heard that they've been having quality problems lately. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Will laminate floor floated over good sound insulation (e.g. Pergo's Whisperwalk)be quieter than hardwood nailed to the floor? We have a finished lower basement underneath, so sound is an important consideration
*Anything you do to eliminate sound transmission from the hardwood (oops, plastic Pergo) flooring to the joists and subsequently down to the basement ceiling below will help. The addition of half-inch soundboard would be better than just the typical eighth-inch foam that goes under a floating floor and on top of the subfloor. If you're considering a floating installation, there are laminates that use real wood as the "show" layer. Still a ply product, still an edge and end glue floater, but you get wood over plastic. Real wood. Andrew has previously posted a link to http://www.homasote.com where they have something similar to the sound insulating sheet flooring goods that you referenced. Never used it myself, but am interested and will be researching soon.
*Mongo, I would think the homasote would work pretty well to deaden the sound. Be a lot cheaper that the Pergo whisperwalk. Iza, I've put in a few Pergo floors, one just last week. Quality doesn't seem to have changed, at least not visually. As far as installation over a finished area, definately need the whisperwalk, not the foam. I like Pergo for some applications, but I wouldn't put it in my home. Number one, while it is attractive, it doesn't look like wood. Number two, while it has a good warranty for staining and fading, it doesn't hold up well to scratching. Finally, I don't see a significant enough savings to justify it over wood. Just my opinion. Good luck.Ray
*I have put laminate floors in many times including my own home, and I hate it. Absolutely hate it. I would never put it in my own home again, in fact I am thinking of replacing it with hartco wood floor.The main reason I do not like it is the feel when walked on. I never felt such a spongy floor.And that hollow sound kills me.And it does scratch, I don't care what the manufacturers say, it's laminate for crying out loud.My suggestion to you before spending all the extra money is to talk to others that have it and see what they think.And I believe hardwood over plywood is quieter.
*Oh yeah, I forgot one other thing, try replacing a single piece of pergo and you will find a new meaning for the word frustrating.
*izaI'm recovering from a car accident and therefor have time to lounge around the ol' cybermachine (actually, I should be working on my business plan for spec homebuilding career switch, but this is research, isn't it?)and I'm sure running into a lot of familiar faces around these various posts. You know who you are. Where the hell do you guys get the time, ye demi-gods of time management?Anyway, iza, if I were you, Iwould walk, no run, away from this crap.I wouldn't put it into somebody's house I don't like, let alone my own. The stuff barely stands up to coddled use over the short term, over the long term you're wasting money. Wood has about a three or four hundred year track record, nothing to sneeze at. As for keeping a wood floor quiet over living space, I'd be tempted to go floating floor, the type of instasllation you use with wood over radiant heating in floor. More money yes, but it is your house. quietly yours, cybergreg
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OK on the hardwood floors, but gotta do laminate for the first time. How are strapping clamps best used on planks - spacing, pattern, etc. - and whose to get - Bessey, Crain Cutter, Armstrong, Sinclair...?