when i had my house built 4 yrs.ago the painting crew was to clear coat my cabinets (no stain-oak) i did not realize until much later that they had used laquer! instead of polyurethane. now the lower cabinets are starting to show damage to the laquer from water dripping from the counter top etc. here is my question; is it possible to lightly sand and respray damaged cabinet doors with laquer? i don’t think i can put polyurethane over laquer so i will have to keep using laquer? whatever i do it obviously will have to match the undamaged cabinets. any thought’s on this?
fm2
“the large print givith, and the small print taketh away” Tom Waits
“those with accurate observation are often called a cynic by those who have not got it” george bernard shaw
Replies
Yes you can..IF..there is always the big IF. You must clean them absolutly clean. Wash down with naptha first, then a scuff with 220 Sandy Paper. And a wash down again with laq. thinner.
If you are removeing the doors , and I highly suggest you do..set them where you can spray them, do not even try to brush on what you are going to use..which is Pre-catalyzed lac. Don't try DEft or similar or you will be doing this again.
Sherwin williams ought to be able to hook you up.
P.s. buy a cheap 35.00 spray gun if you don't have one, cuz if the pre cat sets up in the gun before ya clean it out..it's hosed.
Yes, and I'll add an if. It's about 98% likely that painters in a house did not use pre cat. Rare bear for on site stuff, at least here. So on the assumption that it's standard nitro, yes, you can, and yes, clean any grease off first.
But don't clean it with lacquer thinner. It will dissolve the old finish, although that is a very good test to be sure that you actually have nitrocellulose lacquer for a finish. Take a corner somewhere fairly unseen and wet it for a few seconds with a brush dipped in thinner. If you keep it wet for 15 seconds and it doesn't start to get sticky - like you can push on it and not leave a fingerprint, then you have cat or pre cat. If it starts to get tacky, you're in business.
Leveling lacquer or sanding for adhesion are moot. I'd only sand out any obvious bumps or runs in the finish, and attempt to avoid them the second go around. Lacquer will eat into the previous coat. There are no cure lines.
If you want more durable, buy CAB lacquer. It's made to withstand some of the kitchen bumps and bruises better than straight nitro. And though lacquer and spraying aren't inherently difficult to learn, I sure wouldn't want to learn on my kitchen. If you're not well versed in the multitude of oopses that can come your way, save youself a whale of a headache and hire it out. Seriously. A decent painter can knock it out in short order. Most of the time will be cleaning and masking. You can fog a whole kitchen in ten minutes with a gun once the prep is all out of the way. That's the other 7 hours and 50 minutes of the day.
"The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
yup. I shoulda said a wipe down with thinner, it wont dissolve the previous coat. If a wash down did dissolve laq. I woulda saved a bunch on refinishing with Methylene Chloride.
A pro should do it..like ya said
Go Stab yourself Ya Putz! Ya think I Parked here?
great stuff gentlemen! thank you... although i may just try it myself first on a sample piece of wood that was sprayed when the cabs. were done (same laq. same wood,same painter,same day) yes oddly enough i can still see it up in the garage rafters where i put it 4 yrs. ago.ha (pack rat...no not me!) i'm the type of guy that is not quite a pro, but miles beyond the typical homeowner. i got to this point by educating myself then tryin' stuff and hoping for the best, and been purty damm lucky so far. but your points are well taken regarding a "pro" doing it, but i think also that a REAL pro would have used polyurethane??takes more work and time i know but i would have gladly paid him extra had i known beforehand that laquer would be used. but then again i didn't ask so....my fault. just my .02
fm2
"the large print givith, and the small print taketh away" Tom Waits
"those with accurate observation are often called a cynic by those who have not got it" george bernard shaw
I think that you can overtop the lacquer with varnish. Specially if you put on a shellac barrier coat. But I don't think that you need to do that.
I know that I have seem some specific does and don't on these. But check Jewitt, Dresdner and Flexner's books, but could not find anything definite.
You might ask Jeff Jewitt in the forums at Homestead Finishes.
I don't know where Michael Dresdner hangs out online these days, but you might check over in Knots.
Bill, just heard from Michael, this week. He is doing a 2 week lecture tour...his online gig is woodanswers.com and it is a Q&A forum..you may know that he I worked together..Great Guy.
Duane
Go Stab yourself Ya Putz! Ya think I Parked here?
Ditto Jeff.
Jeff used to be on Compuserve years ago. Then posted a lost on the old Badger pond. Then he setup his own web site where he sells supplies (including his own Trans-tins) and has a forum.
Later Michael started showing posting on Badger Pond. You could tell when he had a new book out or a speaking tour.
You could tell when he had a new book out or a speaking tour.
Gee, REALLY?...lol...Funny, I had fixed a table for a neighbor and used Hydro-cote for a finish repair ..(I bought it from Michael) and it DESTROYED the original finish. I loaded it up and took it to his shop and said something like " OK bubba, NOW WHAT"? I looked around and saw all these bass guitars hangin up and said " Damn, nice work" we got to fixin my table top and shootin the breeze..next thing I know he hired me!!..We had a great time, playing with the "new and Improved" stuff he was cookin up..so I split my time between making bass's and messin with waterbased finish concoctions..then outside sales as well.
He went to Martin, I went to Pipe Organs, then PBC Guitar, with Dave Bunker..and we have stayed in touch all these yrs. He has taught me alot..like I said, Great guy.
Go Stab yourself Ya Putz! Ya think I Parked here?
a real pro would have used poly?
Well, debateable. Not in this neck of the woods. Lacquer is king. Poly is not the end all be all of cabinets. I think it's a little too soft for kitchen work, despite all the minwax durability claims. No, I'd totally expect a pro to shoot straight nitro unless it were a change from the SOP mandated by the homeowner. If someone claimed they were something special when it came to finishing, then I might see cab in their arsenal.
Of course, thats another difference here. Painters don't finish kitchen cabs. They come finished, doesn't matter where you get them. The only way to get them unfinished is the $30 a box variety at the big orange."The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
I think that the cabinetmaker that we have doing painted finish on the doors is using a lacquer based paint. For a clear finish our first choice will be lacquer.
Seem to remember my cabinet maker saying at one time that he could put lacquer over poly but couldn't put poly over lacquer. Mabey others could clarify this if they have the actual experience.
Scott T.
I actually did this very thing...I have knotty pine shaker-style cabinets. I sprayed poly on three of my laquered cabinet doors (they were getting extensive wear and water damage). Just cleaned thoroughly, lightly sanded and sprayed two coats of satin polyurethane (I believe it was Minwax). It's been three years and they look great..In fact they've held up better than the laquered ones. As far as ambering is concerned, I honestly can't see a difference between the polyed-over doors and the straight lac.
Like the other posts said, check with lacquer thinner on the back of a door to see if you have nitro lacquer. If you do, and want to change to CAB or WB, here's something to consider.
Nitro lacquer has a light honey color when used on light colored woods. The water based (WB) and CAB lacquers I've used don't. You'll have to tint the stuff with Trans-Tint amber, about 5 drops per gallon usually gives the right shade.
Nitro is really easy to repair. Take the doors and drawer fronts off, sand out the defects to 320, and shoot'em. Don't forget to clean all the nooks and crannies with naptha.
I did all of my maple doors in my kitchen with nitro, and havn't had any problems with water. Just wipe'm down after washing dishes.
I'll throw in my two cents also FWIW.
I wouldn't recommend nitro as the final finish for the average kitchen. At least not the average kitchen I've seen. While nitro is a beautiful finish to look at, it isn't as durable as some others that are available although it is quite easy to repair, relatively speaking. And so it has its advantages for the installer/finisher. If something gets dinged a bit during install, no big problem. Being an evaporative finish, the last layer of nitro applied will melt into the previous coat becoming one with it. No bonding problems then exist.
But it doesn't stand up well to the rubbing and scrubbing that takes place when you finally see those little dried splatters of tomato sauce that initially went unnoticed. As the rubbing progresses, the relatively soft nitro wears away. And it doesn't have a high resistance to water that's left to stand on it. It may work fine in a "show" kitchen", but in a working kitchen it won't likely last as long as say one of the catalyzed finishes, cab lacquer or polys. At least it wouldn't in our kitchen.
And yes, poly can be applied over nitro, if (as others have said) that surface is cleaned first. Over-coating one finish on another and being successful is usually related to both compatibility of the solvents involved and getting a good bond of the one to the other. For instance, applying nitro over poly would be a very dubious adventure. The lacquer thinners (solvents and retarders) involved could eat into the poly fast enough to cause wrinkling, etc. However, there's nothing in oil-based poly that I'm familiar with that would dissolve or endanger the underlying cured lacquer in a destructive fashion and so the next issue is getting a good bond. A cleaned and scuffed surface should provide sufficient toothing for the poly. However, that seal coat of dewaxed shellac that was mentioned is still a good idea because there may be other contaminates lurking in the previous finish that will spoil things for you. Things like cooking oils and greases can and do get transferred to the surface in the heat of battle while preparing food and these can leech deeply into the underlying coats of finish and even into the wood, defying total removal while prepping the surface for recoat.
I'll stay out of the fray concerning the "best" finish for you or anyone to use in a kitchen because there are so many choices out there these days and they all have various advantages and disadvantages as time progresses. Some don't allow for recoat at all. Stripping or tossing the cabinetry then becomes a necessity. That may not be a big deal if these aren't heirloom quality cabs or aren't going to be replaced with such. It can be cheaper sometimes to toss the old and install new. And of course there is a limit as to how many coats of finish build up you can get away with before stripping is in order anyway. Just grab your crystal ball and should be able to make the perfect choice today. <G>
Make sure to do both sides of your doors.