I used that system just once a long time ago.
Got any photos you can post?
I would like to see them if you do. Especially the ledger details for joists and roof.
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Replies
Sounds like a well thought out system. I googled you and didn't find a website for your buisness but obviously you've been in this game for a long time and have a great system going. I'd love to see you put up a website and share some of your ideas or post some photo's and drawings to this forum.
Try not to feed the trolls though, there are some house flippers and so forth on this forum who are antagonistic to green and energy efficient building and will try to get your goat. There are plenty of us who appreciate how important (and fun) it is though.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Sounds like a good topic to discuss.
Can you post some drawings. I used to work with a guy who ripped 2x6's in half, then gusseted them with 3/8" plywood and created a 11 1/4" stud with them. He'd run a double 2 x 12 top plate system and fill it all up with fiberglass.
I'm just wondering if you are doing something similar.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Here's one pictorial essay i found when googling our new friend.
The detail from that site (which, in fairness to Riversong, seems to be not the exact one he uses):
View ImageView Image
View Image
Family photo?......... LOLFirst we get good- then we get fast !
I only know that it seems to take much longer here to get the upload completed and move on to the next step then with other forums.
Might try again and wait longer to see whether if it works. Try just one photo to start with.
help?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
24441.26 is a link to an old thread running thru the basic process of attachment posting on BT.
Also in the thread is a description of Irfanview many BTers find easy and useful as well as some programs others are using as well.
One thing to check might be the overall KB size of the pic you are wanting to post. Some machines might take a longer time to finish the post after clicking upload. Those four digit KB pics can incur the wrath of dialuppers or they will just skip the thread.
Peace full.
Did you ever get the posting problem ironed out.
Riversong is having some trouble getting his pics to attach on here similar to what you were dealing with back in 24441.98
Peace full.
Hopefully BoJangles or someone will have something to shed light on the situation.
Peace full.
Cool. How 'bout more info? How do you build it (sequence) what insulation? how does the siding work? Where are you building? Thanks for the info .
Tobias
Hi Riversong,Do you do anything to segregate the wall bays from each other? I find it hard to get a good dense cellulose pack when the cavities have too much crosstalk.Steve
How dense can you get the cells (lbs/cf)? And how do you do it with the cross-talking, deep cavities?
edit: sorry, we're cross posting...
Steve
Edited 1/24/2008 8:52 pm by mmoogie
I've done the 6-inch gap in the sheetrock when blowing regular framing. Works OK. Like you say, even with regular framing I find I have to really work the hose, up down, left, right, even with a 2x6 cavity on 16" centers. I'm alway trying for 3.5 lbs, and usually have a hard time getting there, Usually 3.2 or 3.3 is about what I wind up with.
I find it easier to get good density with the mesh, but it's an extra and somewhat tedious step.
I can't help thinking that it's a lot of extra work into getting from R19 to R40. Which is kind of why I haven't pursued staggered stud/larson truss/double-envelope approaches yet. There must be a simpler way to break the thermal bridging. I know you don't like the foam because of it's embodied energy and petrochemical base. I can understand that. But maybe some kind of low density organic material could also function like foam sheathing does. Have you heard of anything along those lines?
Steve
steve have you ever looked at Mooney wall?
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=65624.1Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I think you have to either wait longer, or shut off a security feature.
I can't remember what it was but I had trouble here too. I think I had to switch something on: popup or someother software.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Riversong,
Sounds like a great project. I applaud your work.
My specialty is historic restoration, including designing and building new additions for them in ways that are aesthetically compatible with 150 year old buildings. I'm also trying to get the best performance from the existing bits of these thermally challenged structure.
My dilemma is this: Most of my clients want a house that looks and feels more or less like the house of their parents and grandparents. An adventurous few will venture down the path you are going, and that's great and perhaps the more of this kind of construction people see, the more they will accept it as within the range of what they want for a homey-feeling home.
I'm looking for ways to maximize wall performance while still building a wall that is only 4-8 inches thick. So far DP cells in a 2x6 cavity seems a good compromise to me, thermal bridging notwithstanding. I'm still looking for an easy, green way to break the bridge without a wall that's a foot think.
Attic and rafter insulation solutions are pretty easy to achieve, given enough headroom (arguments over venting and petrochemicals and plastics losing their plasticity notwithstanding). It's the walls (and more than anything the windows) that are the rub.
Steve
PS: Got any photos of this house? (edit: oops, there we go cross posting again).
PPS: Got a name besides Riversong? I feel like I'm talking to an irish step dancer all the time ;-)
Edited 1/24/2008 9:32 pm by mmoogie
So, no sheathing? That is one thing that would take some getting used to (for me). Seems like you would need to be careful installing the housewrap. Can other siding types be used with your system? How do your window going with no sheathing? No casing?
Thanks for the info.
robert , i missed the part about what you do for sheathing
View Image
i caught the part about the airtight drywall....do you do the same airtight system that Gene Leger describes ?
Glad to see you got the photo posting figured out. Great thread.
I do have a question about fire stops.
Code here calls out for no more than a 10" vertical space between fire blocking in any stud bay. Without fire blocking in the added on portion of the framing how do you get around that ?
This must not be a problem for you .
Thanks, Robert.
The house looks sleeker than I thought it would. Kudos for pulling it off nicely.
You are achieving a lot of savings by skipping the sheathing and using a concrete slab-on-grade for the first floor and using rough-cut lumber for your trim. Most of these are things that won't fly with my clients seeking a period-looking addition on a greek-revival house where I need wide, smooth trim all over the place, wood floors and full cellars.
The lack of sheathing I can marginally accept, but I would have to pad out for the wider window trim. While I could live with the lack of sheathing with drop-siding, with clapboards it seem a little dicey to me. Many of the houses I work on were originally built with no sheathing under the clapboards. They wind up splitting and cracking and leaking sooner or later, so it seems prudent to me to have a secondary plane between the siding and the cellulose that is more than just the tyvek.
When I retrofit a wall with no sheathing for insulation my preferred method these days is to cut and fit 2" rigid foam between the bays from the inside, then blow the rest of the cavity with cellulose. I will also strap the wall with 2x4's on the flat inside the house to get more insulation depth if the design allows. I guess I could do it with plywood instead to avoid the petrochemicals, but the extra R-value of the 2" r-max seems like a good way to get some extra value out of the work.
Steve
>>If a customer insisted on clapboards, then I would sheath with diagonal rough-sawn boards...
I did that once. What a PITA. Why not use plywood?
Steve
Interesting.
Here I would bet a pile of dog biscuits I would be asked to show the appropriate certification of that assembly or it wouldn't fly.
Built a commonwall duplex here once that had a 8" concrete block wall as the common wall. Zero penetrations through it.
Inspectors refused to pass it until the GC could come up with certification of test results for the 2 hour rating as a fire rated assembly.
robert ,what are you blowing for attic depth ?
View Image
Robert, have you checked for settling after several years?
Looks like you might have 20'+ of cells in those walls, dense pack needs to be really dense to keep even a 10' bay from settling.
What wind and seismic zones will this no sheathing system pass code in?
Looks a lot like pictures from an old book I have (somewhere) with the Gene Leger Houses and other superinsulated houses.
Joe H
>>I charge time and materials with no markup, since I also don't believe in the whole concept of "profit" or unearned income.
I charge t & m plus 20% on subs and materials. I tell my clients that and am totally transparent about it. I don't consider it profit. I consider it simply one way to keep my hourly rate in line with what people will pay around here, yet still make a living. I also will let people get their own materials if they so choose, but then I won't warrant the materials or the installation, and if it amounts to more than a certain amount of the total job, I bump the hourly rate to compensate. I justify the markup on subs because I'm ultimately the one that has to assume the risk of their work.
Steve
HRV?
>> I find hefting 4x8 sheets of plywood to be much more of a PITA than carrying boards, even green ones. I love the smell of hemlock. The offcuts get turned into heat for my wood-fired hot tub or woodstove at home, instead of going to a landfill.
1/2" cdx still feels pretty light to me, but I'm getting older too (50 last month). I like the smell of wood, but I don't do hot tubs, and my woodstove needs dry hardwood to work right with the catalytic combuster.
But the real PITA is the extra time doing boards on the diagonal takes. It's just so fast with sheet goods.
How much higher is the embodied energy of plywood?
Steve
click on the pic...open it..
right click on it... do a control c
edit your post, do a control v
do an "apply" and your pics are now in your post
Doh! that's a little easier, isn't it?Why didn't anyone tell me that?Steve
you9 did9n't have the se9ret de9oder rin9Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
It's rough being the new guy around here, geez...
attach your picture, preview it, copy the URL for the picture, then use the following HTML:
<img src="insert URL here">
With the URL pasted where it says insert URL here.
Make sure the HTML checkbox at the bottom of the typing window is checked.
Steve
Robert,
Can you recommend some good reading on this stuff? The last book I bought specifically on super-insulatied houses was Wm. Shurcliff's book from 1981.
Thanks in advace. It's past my bedtime...
Steve
>>You might just have to come to Vermont and take one of my classes!
That's not out of the question. I'm in Upstate NY, near Cooperstown. Where do you teach?
Steve
I've noticed the Yestermorrow ads in the back of the magazines. I'll be looking into it.
Steve
This is an excellent thread.I learned a lot.But it's getting too late to be up reading forums and I just have one question for now.How do you deal with green lumber(which I'm assuming the rough sawn stuff is)shrinking?Ring shank nails?
Also, how's the consistency of the rough sawn lumbers dimentions?
OK,so two Q's.
I like low-tech.
I take it your code doesn't require HRV?
You have RFH and a woodstove, too?
How is the fluid (water?) for the RFH heated?
<<only one plane needs to be lined up>>
I was thinking that was the beauty of this system. I worked on framing a place long ago who partz were cut with a VW-circular saw mill. The studs varied up to quarter-inch and the boss couldn't decide from wall to wall whether to line up the siding or drywall face. Oy.
They were bottom logs of huge sugar pines drought-killed in Yosemite NP. What a travesty to be used like that...
Edited 1/25/2008 1:12 am by splintergroupie
After doing a lot of research, i chose an electric Seisco for a friend's house last year. Electric went against everything i've even been told, but the numbers worked out (our electricity is at 7.8 cents). One benefit is that [so far] electricity is more State-regulated than propane prices and not likely to go up as shockingly quickly. I also wasn't looking forward to cutting through a 6"-wide log wall for a vent.
The Seisco has a good system of modulating the output and cycling between the four chambers if not calling for full heat output so the first one isn't taxed; it's been working flawlessly. Still, one is at the mercy of the electricity gods when the power goes out, which is not uncommon.
Thanks a bunch for posting such thorough descriptions. I've pulled it out into a .doc that I'll keep. Love to build one of these someday.
Forrest
Interesting thread. Never saw this method before. I like your attitude regarding using what's local.
Regarding posting pics, just open a pic up in a thread, right click, hit "copy". Then start your own post (or reply), right click again where you want to embed the pic and hit paste. If you wanna embed a pic in your own post, just attach as usual, and prior to posting, preview it and do the same thing.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
But the financial and environmental cost savings of using very local pine which had to be removed for another building project, and was milled for $0.14/bf, was worth whatever additional effort it took to use it.
If this was my own home, I would do the same, but for a client how do you bill this sort of philosophical building technique?
If it take me a couple days to run all that cheap lumber through the planer so what? If it takes a few extra days to sheath the roof and deck but I saved a few thou I'm ok.
But if I have to charge the HO for it, did feeling good about saving the forest cost more than it was worth to her?
I did use for subfloor and roof sheathing some pine boards from trees I felled last year and had milled at a nearby old-timer's Lane #0 sawmill. There was considerable thickness variation, which will have to be dealt with before the finish pine floor is installed (the home-owner is arranging that herself as I type).
Planning to even this up with a floor sander? What about the roof, bumpy substrate with shakes will work, but anything else wants something flat.
Joe H
A friend of mine has a floor of rough-sawn (circular sawn) plank. It looks like it got a light sanding with perhaps a plate sander, like the ones they rent at HD, then varnished. There are no splinters, no height variation between boards - might have had the back side planed, i don't know. It's just a great texture for walking on in socks w/o falling on your butt. My next house...that's what's going in it.
<<But the financial and environmental cost savings of using very local pine which had to be removed for another building project, and was milled for $0.14/bf, was worth whatever additional effort it took to use it.>>
I hear you. My whole house is someone else's disposal problem. I have a Kohler suite in my bathroom that cost $3K new, mostly just effort to me. "Effort"...an interesting concept...
There's a sawmill near my house, the only one i know left, that is still making lots of sawdust. They must be milling for the log home builders in the valley, i gather. Before i recycled this house i had plans to build fresh, so i went there to get some prices, which turned out to be Premium. Since i was building a small home, not paying homage to the Wild West, i couldn't have afforded to use them.
My last house had full 2x10s on 12" centers between floors, nearly clear larch, probably milled at that same mill, but in the early 70s before the log-home bonanza. Not much economy there, but it was local. Nothing's ever as simple as it seems, eh?
Thanks for that answer.
Can you address the settling of the cells in those 20'+ walls?
Joe H
Do you have a website for us to peruse?
Walter
Your own site I mean.
Edited 1/25/2008 4:28 pm ET by theslateman
Have you looked into a wall after few months or a year?
Joe H
suppose there might be a reason why it hasn't caught on in thirty years?
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
it has a lot to do with pink panthersMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
seriously.... i never would have considered cellulose if our Solar Home company hadn't been bought by a start-up cellulose insulation mfr.... ( Rhode Island Energy )
the guy was quite a crusader...
andn there was a 60 Minutes expose' about the fire dangers of cellulose insulation
( pretty thourough BS )
anyways...
before that , i always thought .......Insulation = Fiberglass... and anything else , besides foam was just hokum
turns out the hokum was the FG..
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
What about blown in fiberglass?
Don't flame me too hard- legitamate question.
Thanks, Walter
blown in FG !!!! ?????? ... why i oughta.....
i'd guess the average blown -in would be better than the average batt job
but the problem with Fiberglass is just that.... the fibers..
they allow air to circulate around them... they are almost perfect condensing surfaces..they are not hygroscopic.. they will not absorb & release moisture
the fibers melt at high temperature , so they don't offer effective fire protection
in batt form ... they usually don't conform to the stud bay they are installed in
there is no such thing as dens-pak fiberglass...ie : you can't blow FG to a high density
and even "hi-density" batts are not.. they are just "higher density batts "
sorry.... FG is superior to no insulation, but not much elseMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
FG is superior to no insulation, but not much else.
Any $ spent for FG would be better invested in beer.
You could buy a lot of beer for the cost of a few rolls of FG, and at least you'd also know why it's so damn cold in your house.
Joe H
Here is where I get curious...
The reported design density and settling for cellulose is at typical 8-10 foot tall walls.At what point does the wall become tall enough that the added weight causes greater density and settling at the bottom of the wall? maybe it is at 20' maybe at 80' I don't know, but there has to be some point at which it overwhelms itself.Other than that, most of this method is a matter of how does the HO want to spend their money? Opinions vary and there are hundreds of ways to achieve superinsulation.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
doesn't fireblocking have to be installed no greater than every
10 feet...
regards
At what point does the wall become tall enough that the added weight causes greater density and settling at the bottom of the wall? maybe it is at 20' maybe at 80' I don't know, but there has to be some point at which it overwhelms itself.
I'm late to this rodeo, so maybe this horse has been beat to death already, but since using that insulmesh, I've been able to see some of the odd behavior of cellulose. You would think that you could cut a hole in the top of the wall and just pour the stuff in and it would fall to the bottom of the wall and then fill upwards (like mineral wool). But it doesn't usually work that way. It logjams and you might only have the top couple feet filled. But its shooting out the hole like the whole bay is filled. On the Regal Wall, they get around the logjam by cutting their hole in the middle (of an 8' bay) and use a 4' wand to stick all the way up and down the wall. On the Mooney wall, they're cutting holes every couple feet.
So I understand what you're saying about a 20' tall column of cellulose pushing down and compressing, but then I look at a 4' section of blown bay with a wide open 4' underneath of it and wonder if the 20' column is an issue in cases where its dense packed enough to stick to the studs and sheathing.
And unlike when I've pulled a section of drywall/plaster off and gotten showered by mineral wool, when I pull a section of that insulmesh off, the cellulose just stays put (unless you poke at it).
Although in all fairness I admit that I haven't blown a wall with the insulmesh and come back 10 years later to see if it has changed. jt8
"The unfortunate thing about this world is that good habits are so much easier to give up than bad ones." -- Somerset Maugham
Thanks for the comments. You had more of substance to say on the issue than Riversong
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I no longer have the actual figures, but i recall it was in the ballpark of a third-again...in line with the actual rough size increase over nominal (planed) 2x dimension stock. The joists in my house were jointed, but i'm not sure if the mill did that or the builder.
I think i bought the house based on the joists, truly - the previous one i'd had to do some really nasty contortions with the spidies and dead mine in a shallow crawlspace to add strongback. I'll never ever ever own another crawlspace...
I like your Tennesseean (?) wisdom. <G>
Dead mice in the mines... I spend half my time daydreaming, the other half of it typing as slowly as anyone ever typed...doesn't leave any time for proof-reading. Still, i caught you "shoeing" those rattlesnakes... ;^)
That's an interesting project in Tennessee and it's pretty remarkable it's still going. The 99-year-lease is interesting. My late mate, a Brit, talked about that particular 'ownership' system in England; one of his sons had such a deal, as i recall. I think there was a gov't tie-in, though...not a private non-profit kind of thing.
The second house you described sounds...sorry...awful. Horizontal studs? T-111 on its side? This is the kind of stuff that floats my boat. While i fully appreciate the intent of your design - and further, that it survives the empirical test - the windows look like unlidded eyes to me. "We fight for roses too."
Michael Graves designs for Target. I think that's brilliant.
I looked up Dale McCormick. I've seen the book, but never looked it over bec of the cartoonish cover; i'll give it another chance. Interesting that she and i both got into the trades bec of not being able to put our teaching credentials to work, and by sneaking into our first jobs by hiding our femaleness: she had a man drop off her application and i filled mine out using only my initials and mailed it.
And now she's the director of Piffin's Maine State Housing Authority....life's funny, eh?
"Fiberglass loses significant R-value when its temperature is either less than or more than room temperature - that is, when its insulating ability is most needed."
I don't want to interrupt your luv affair with the cellulose. It is good stuff, but not all you say about FG is true.
It is not the temp of the FG that makes it ineffective in the cold.
It is the temperature differential between interior and exterior that creates convection currents in the wall cavities with FG batts that renders them ineffective. Chopped FG blown in dens BIB system maintains nearly the same R-value as cellulose at cold temperature differentials because it does not allow those convection currents in the wall cavities any more than cellulose does.
You were just taking info about batts and spreading it out over all FG insulation types. I see how easy it is for you to make the mistake.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
""It is the temperature differential between interior and exterior that creates convection currents in the wall cavities with FG batts that renders them ineffective."" I could have sworn that that statement has been shown to be inaccurate jut recently here in another thread. The convective currents argument applied only to attic situations. No one has shown any evidence that the convective currents applies to properly installed FG in wall cavities. "" You were just taking info about batts and spreading it out over all FG insulation types. I see how easy it is for you to make the mistake." Well you got that part right, about your own statement as well.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
" that statement has been shown to be inaccurate jut recently here in another thread."No - I was fully able to document it in attics, and you failed to accept that the same principles appliy in walls as in attics and in double pane windows, but Nobody showed that convection loops do not work to nulify the insualtive values of FG battss in walls. They can't and won't because it exists.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I believe it was Bill Hartman who posted the link and quotes that disproved what You are stating. It was recently reposted in another thread. The testers were unable to prove any convective currents occurred in a properly done stud cavity. (which by the way, they were surprised at IIRC ) Last time we discussed this you pointed out it was virtually impossible to achieve such a job, I don't disagree. But the claim that the convective current exists is false. Every single test cited by manufacturers of the other insulations all go back to one test done in an attic and then applied to wall cavities. They are misusing information to make a sale . You are falling for their lies if you believe it. No need to reply .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
well, it is clear that I stepped into the cell of of the cellulose cult
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
this is the olde ranger.... here to tell you about 20 Mule Team Borax...
hey
remember him ?
u comming to JLC ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Probably not able
Mom is getting worse in florida and I have been several hours a day trying to deal with that one via phone while dealing with my own fybromyalgia up here
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
better days are comming , brother...
and if things change , you know you and Carole are always welcomeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks I know.Last night was my first on a CPAP machine. I actually woke up alert and awake and mentally ready to go. My body still feels like a bear was playing basketball with it though
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
CPAP ........ now there you go again
( what the heck is a CPAP ? )
Helen has some Pain-a-Trate... she swears by for the bear maulings
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If you were serious, "CPAP" stands for Constant Positive Air Pressure--it pumps air into a mask that fits over your nose and prevents collapse of your airway (mainly soft palate, I guess) by keeping it under pressure.
that's what i thought..... but i couldn't identify all the letters in the acronym
i think Helen would be well served by the same thing.... but good luck to me convincing her of thatMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Well a CPAP beats the heck out of a UPPPT (Uvulo Palatal Pharangeal Plasty and Tonsilectomy) where the surgeon basically cores out your throat. I had the UPPPT done and I still snored! (BTW, UPPPT is a fairly painful recovery (and forget about eating icecream during recovery--hurts way too much! After this procedure, seemed like all the foot I tried to swallow went up and packed in the space between my upper esaphagus and my nose. Even now I often chioke when I eat because so much muscle was pared away along with the soft palate that I can't keep the food from falling into my trachia bwfore I swallow) and I had two incidences of bleeding from my upper throat where I drove myself to the ER holding an emisis basin that slowly filled with blood--swore I'd never eat rare meat again!) So, convince your wife not to have that procedure, if she's considering that at all--I'd strongly recommend against it! Besides, I can no longer "caw" like a crow, without my uvula! Major inconvenience, that!
Several years after the UPPPT, I had another sleep test that showed I stopped breathing something like sixty times a night and my oxygen level was way too low, so I had to get a CPAP anyway! CPAP isn't exactly fun to wear, but I do feel more rested and I don't snore. (Oh, and the device my dentist sold me for several hundred dollars also did nothing, in case you were considering that!) Most importantly using a CPAP really reduces risks of stuff like stroke that can happen with obstructive sleep apnea. Wife would benefit and so would you! (My wife sleeps much better without me snoring or gasping for air all night! And so did my stepdaughters who could hear me snoring in our upstairs bedroom with its door and the door to downstairs closed while they watched TV downstairs! And that was after the obstructions that supposedly caused me to snore had been cut away!)
danno..... thanks for all the info.... i'll have Helen read it
(wait..... do i really want her to read that i posted about her snoring ?... let's think about this......hmmmmm )
anyways.... where do i send the consultation fee ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm just guessing here, but riverson would probably appreciate it if we took this discussion outside of his Larsen house should we want to continue it.;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
nah.... it's a tradition... you don't screw with traditionsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You could tell her I assumed that she snored because you mentioned she wasn't sleeping well, or was not rested after a night's sleep or something like that.
Donate my "fee" to your favorite charity (that's what everyone else is doing, apparently! ;-) Just got my 1099 from the guy I work as a sub for--pitiful! I haven't made this little since I stopped mowing lawns in junior high!)
Not at all by me. I don't think much of FG. , have no experience with cellulose in walls and have been a foam fan for years. I just do not like test data being used in a false manner is all, especially when it is done in advertising.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
same here, just trying to clear up all the false propaganda. my favorite is foam, but an do good work with any that fit the job and the budget. It is the fanatics that say there is only one way to ride a horse.I can ride a darn mule or cow and still get there
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I love my machine, it's the static charge I hate.
Joe H
oooh...i know what you mean... some days and some adjustments are much worse
have you tried grounding the hose in some fashion ? or maybe dragging a wire so it will dischage to something other than you ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Humidity here is close to zero in the summer, my beer builds up a charge sometimes.
Actually killed a keyboard a few months ago when I touched it.
Zap, no more letters came out.
Joe H
I went to an oriental buffet the other day. Must have picked up a pretty good charge walking across the carpet from table to food line, because when my little finger tip barely touched the stainless steel serving tray, you could hear the charge jump "Zzzzztt!" and I jerked my hand back so hard and fast, it is a wonder I didn't break the sneezegaurd plastic!Carole always gets embarrassed when all the people look at me like that....
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have you tried grounding the hose in some fashion ? or maybe dragging a wire so it will dischage to something other than you ?
I'll try to remember to hang a chain off my a$$ next time I'm blowing cell. Drag that chain around like an old oil truck to keep the static down. ;)
jt8
"The unfortunate thing about this world is that good habits are so much easier to give up than bad ones." -- Somerset Maugham
Joe,I missed something here. I'm assuming you are tallking about cellulose blowing and the static discharges that'll make your heart stop and knock you off a ladder, well, not quite but almost. I try to remember to wrap a wire around the PVC fittings I use to go from flex hose to whatever I happen to be using for a smaller diameter rigid hose (often PVC), and run it straight to a ground rod. When I forget to do it I usually am very quickly reminded. Seems to help quite a bit.Steve
Steve, my switch is grounded, BUT, if I let go of it I'm instantly building a charge. Usually set it on top of the ladder or something and then when I pick it up again ZAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!
Need to get one of those static cuff computer thingees and wire it to the switch.
Joe H
The fact this refers to summer vs winter performance tels me that is backing p exactly what I said. You need to post the basis for the temp in the chart before it means anything. Until then, the context tels you that it means the outside temperature vs the normal 70° interior room temp. You keep posting references that prove how right I am but never one that backs up your assertions.
Hey, I just noticed that the chart refers to loose fil and batts anyways, which is where FG is at its weakest
Now then what do you mean tht "And fiberglass also loses significant R-value as it takes on moisture: "
Are you arguing that cellulose does not lose R-value as it gets wet? That would make a good laugh.
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i'd find that hard to believe.... uninsulated cavities can immediately become chimnies
fiberglass has to melt first.....
now, if you're talking about the kraft/ asphalt paper contributing to flame spread... ok
but the FG is effective until the temp rises enough to melt the fibers , then the cavities become the same as the uninsulated ones
Inspiring...i just watched Nancy Hazard on GreenTV. I wished i'd known such creatures existed back in the day - woulda saved a bit of internal argument.
I stopped woodworking to start carpentering. i must be one of the really dumb ones! Only PT now though...that helps the body feel a whole lot better. Scott and Helen Nearing, IIRC, had a philosophy that only four hours a day should be spent toiling for one's bread.
Wal*Mart.....i hope that wasn't your fast ball.... <G>
Scott and Helen Nearing, IIRC, had a philosophy that only four hours a day should be spent toiling for one's bread.
I thought their theory was that you should do 4 hours physical work, four mental and take four for spiritual reflection and contemplation. That's a twelve hour day (unless you include playing with the kids as Reflection and contemplation...)
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
That is what I got out of one of their books.but my impression was that it is not some formula to be religiously adhered to. it was simply that they were focused and willing to give up some 'things' to work at finding a sense of balance in all ways. The time mentioned was just a way of measuring to work towards that balance.
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So you don't know that it hasn't settled in those tall walls?
I'll bet it has, I've seen it in walls that were pretty damn tightly packed. As time goes by, it settles.
I was impressed with cellulose nearly thirty years ago when I saw a demonstration wall (about 4'x8' with plexiglass walls) that had been moved around the northeast on a utility trailer from one home show to another and showed zero settling.
Big Pink has a wall just like it, perfect insulation with FG, what would anyone expect for advertising?
But a good installer will check the job with an infra-red camera to make sure there are no voids.
By this do you mean that you have checked for voids with an infra-red camera? I wish I had one, it would be a nice to know I hadn't missed anything.
Beyond my toy budget unfortunately.
Joe H
There is never any reasoning with fanatics
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Man, is this thread bringing back the memories! 78 - 82 I was living on the side of Clinch Mountain (a little southeast of the Hatfields & McCoys), building with roughcut lumber from one of several local old-school circular saw mills, paying $80 to $150 per 1000 bd ft.
As Splintie mentions, trying to figure out which side of the stud or beam to leave wide with the not-so-consistent widths (ouch - thanks for bringing that one up). But knowing that the timber came right from the area (some from my own land) was priceless.
Second or third full home we built was based on Lee Porter Butler's solar envelope design. Made sense at the time... turns out it was really the superinsulation and not the thermal cycling that made it work.
Great thread - excellent information on alternative - and fine - homebuilding. Thanks!
Wayne
Robert,
I don't have enough time in that house once it was finished to see how it performed through the seasons. I did love the feel of the place, with the huge solarium on the front, both floors opening to it, overlooking the holler & pond.
I had heard that TVA or some such entity wired up one of the envelope homes with sensors and were able to show that the warmth generated in the solarium never actually made the loop to be stored in the crawl space.
I would be curious to see if anyone studied the solar chimney & earth-cooled intake air part of the system - seemed like that had potential...
Would I do it again? No - too much work & materials for the double north wall and double roof. Combining modern superinsulation techniques & passive solar is I believe a more cost-effective approach. That's what I like so much about what you are doing - a great balance of materials, labor & results.
Wayne
we blow about 24" in our attics to make sure we get a settled 20"
Funny, I was checking out Yestermorrow fairly recently, perhaps a few months ago. The classes sound pretty interesting. I'm currently taking some classes continueing Ed at Boston Architectural College in sustainable design. Yestermorrow's approach seemed to be more hands on (although I get enough of that during the day). I'd be curious what you classes are like, what is covered etc. Do they tend to fill up, 'cause I'd be interested in taking a few.
Tobias
Robert,
Do you use a vapor barrier on the warm-in-winter side of the wall when you insulate with cellulose?. I understand many people do not.
Thanks
no...that's my cellulose mfr........
i used to pay a premium to get the 100% borates
now my distributor , Insul-Mart, only carries the Cel-Pak ( 100% borates )
Insul-Mart started life as RI Energy, mfr'g cellulose insulation
Now I'm a little confused. I assume that when you say you want a house to "breathe", you don't actually want movement of air through your wall system, correct? So "breathe" is to allow movement of water vapor into and out of your walls, so any unintended wetting can dry, and vapor is allowed to move in/out depending on the season and vapor drive, this is why you don't use poly (which I'm in full agreement with, especially for this region) but then your walls are painted with a vapor barrier paint?
From:
JoeH <!----><!---->
Jan-25 8:07 pm
To:
Riversong <!----><!---->
(106 of 141)
99930.106 in reply to 99930.79
So you don't know that it hasn't settled in those tall walls?
I'll bet it has, I've seen it in walls that were pretty damn tightly packed. As time goes by, it settles.
I was impressed with cellulose nearly thirty years ago when I saw a demonstration wall (about 4'x8' with plexiglass walls) that had been moved around the northeast on a utility trailer from one home show to another and showed zero settling.
Big Pink has a wall just like it, perfect insulation with FG, what would anyone expect for advertising?
But a good installer will check the job with an infra-red camera to make sure there are no voids.
By this do you mean that you have checked for voids with an infra-red camera? I wish I had one, it would be a nice to know I hadn't missed anything.
Beyond my toy budget unfortunately.
Joe H
So you don't know.
You think it hasn't, but you don't know for sure.
The good installer didn't check because he knows.
Joe H
This is the one thing that has stood out to me as the most glaring yellow light here.
You blow behind the sheetrock instead of using mesh so you cannot see what you are doing. The SR prevents good clean escape of air which is needed to do a good denspak, and you do it in a thick twenty foot tall wall, all three things detrimental to a good blow, but you don't test your work, just assume and claim that it is the best there is when the conditions you describe make it more likely that there are settlement gaps after a time.
There is a good chance that after five years, there is a 1-2" void right under each of the gussets in that wall where moisture can collect/condense and do its thing. Unfortunately it could be 20-30 years for the HOs to know of the vacancy and problems your assumptions have left them with.
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Riversong,
This has been a great discussion,,,, your stuff and all the people that have added their thoughts.
What is your approach to windows and doors on these superinsulated houses ??
Harry
what prejudice do I have in this?
are you saying that anybody who asks for clarification concerning their questions is prejudiced against your technique?
It is like any other technique and style for building. It has advantages and disadvantages. It is when the perpetrator claims nothing but only good things all the time that suspicious ears perk up.
It possible to do great insulating with cellulose, just as it is with other insulation materials, but there are things that make it harder to do a good job and I mentioned some of them.
One of those is finding a way for the air in the space to be dispelled as the cells are blown in. The solid face of sheetrock is one problem here. You speak of "seeing" and feeling what you are doing in there, but that was not my question.
Actually I have asked two questions and neither of them find any answers yet.
One has to do with letting air escape so that you can achieve proper density with the SR already one.
The other is what do tests show for settlement rates when the wall is twice as tall as a typical wall. I don't know, but it seems that anyone considering this sort of construction would want to know before stacking the cells up 20' tall and vaguely hoping that there is enough at the attic level to makeup for settlement when that in the walls works down.
I am prejudiced against you and your way of presenting things because of your negative attitude to ANY other sort of materials or construction style than what you use. I am not taking any stand against cellulose or any other insulation material. They all have their place when used appropriately
But when the installer claims "I can do no wrong" and don't ever need to test my work, then there is reason to doubt.
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"high solar heat gain lowE windows (Canada offers a better selection). "
Have you ever used any by LePage?
They are touted as pretty good, but I haven't tried them yet.
Got an opinion?
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"how many times have you gone back to a spray foam installation and removed the drywall to make sure the insulation is still intact?"
That is kind of ignorant for somebody who professes good knowledge of insulation systems. You would be aware that wall systems are easily inspected with thermal imaging.
So - I see you can't answer the questions about how to assure a good consistent denspak other than by feel. I guess your customers will just have to take it on faith.
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That might be one way of viewing it but I am not the one posting my wonderful idea for peer review on this, nor bragging about it.
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Robert
Are you part of the Energy Star program? If so how are the HERS raters responding to your systems and what kind of scoring are you seeing?
Are you getting any of your projects LEED-H certified or scored? Have you run any of them through the http://www.NAHBgreen.com scoring tool?
Just curious.
Michael
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Are you part of the Enerrgy
I am with you--cellulose is a great choice for insulation. But what is it about CelPak that makes it the best cellulose manufacturer? I have used Coccoon and Applegate, without noticing a difference.
We've been doing Energy Star on our homes since 2004 and are getting a track record where we can look back and see our performance improving and falling off with different designs and clients. I'd love to see what your numbers look like if you don't mind sharing them with me. Heck, I'll even show you mine if you show me yours! I'll have to dig them all up though, which may take a day or two.
I score all my (one of a kind) houses to LEED-H and NAHBgreen and I find them very useful in helping me assess which systems make the most cost/value sense and in keeping a check on my "green balance." I would imagine that you have a very mature green building community up in Vermont and that being able to compare different house building strategies on a wholistic scoring system might be a big asset to your community. It has certainly brought out the spirit of collaboration in our area down here. We have a very fun and friendly but wickedly competitive rivalry going between the gang in our green building council to see who can outscore each other. We award the certificates in a public forum at our monthly meetings with great groans and gnashing of teeth as people one-up each other. Our clients could care less so we may as well wrassel with each other.
Welcome to the forum.
Michael
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Robert
I know what you mean about points being awarded for things that don't seem very green though I would probably argue with you on SIPS and ICFs as green or not. Personally I can't imagine myself building with SIPS but we're using ICF's on a sealed crawl in our next house and I think it has it's place. I'd take issue (and did at the NGBS work group in DC) with giving points for log homes and vinyl siding but the point is to get as many people in the green building playground as possible and where we may give a few dubious points in a few places we are requiring minimum scores in seven categories and getting builders to balance their approach to green building and we're doing it in an affordable way at $75 to $150 per home (plus cost of energy star) for a third party verified, balanced green building certificate.
In our area LEED-h is still $3,000 per house but we hear that is dropping. We do have people using the NAHB system to build affordable better than energy star housing in our area. Cimarron Homes in Durham NC is building NAHB green certified and much better than energy star homes and selling them for $158,000 including the land. You probably wouldn't call it Green but it is way better than anything else on the market in that price range and it wouldn't be happening if it weren't for the national program.
We have had a local green building program "NC Healthy Built House" for many years through the NC solar center but we are seeing much more buy-in from the NAHB program amoung rank and file builders. I only build three homes a year myself and though they are 30% to 50% they don't make much progress towards solving the environmental crises by themselves. But I can make a difference and you can to if we get out and share our knowledge with other builders and give them encouragement to build greener every year.
And part of doing better is measuring our performance and comparing our scores with our fellow builders and helping all of us to do better every year.
I like the analogy of inviting other builders into our playground. And part of that is having acceptance for differing skill levels and different ways to play the game. At my daughters school they have an expression "Don't yuck my yum" If one kid brings venison to lunch and the other is eating tofu dogs they are not supposed to criticise the others choice. I hope that here at Breaktime and out in the Home Builders Associations and Green Building Councils of America we can spend less time criticising each others imperfections and more time applauding each others improvements.
At last count there were over two hundred green building programs in America I think the goal is not to figure out which is the purist or best but to get as many builders as possible to look at building from a green perspective and to measure their performance and work to improve the quality and sustainability of the homes they build.
Be well
Michael .
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
<<The Earth is getting angry, and I don't think that all of our "green" building programs are going to appease her. I think we're just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic!>>
Robert
I hear you and in many ways agree with you but obviously there is a part of you that believes that it is worthwhile to reduce your own footprint and encourage others to reduce their footprint. Otherwise perhaps you would not choose to live such an austere lifestyle.
So short of some bird flue epidemic wiping out three quarters of the human beings on earth we're on an irreversible decline towards environmental meltdown caused by overpopulation. All the hybrid bio-diesals in the world aren't going to make a bit of difference. But we each can make an attempt to push things in a positive direction in whatever way works best for us. We can talk about true green and carbon neutral and green-washing but the bottom line is it will never be "enough" but at the same time whatever effort each of us can do is in it's own way "enough."
So let's all put our shoulders to the wheel and slow down the apocalypse for a day or two and maybe we'll gain an extra year or so for our kids or grandkids. Or maybe we'll be able to respond when they look to us in twenty years time that at least we did make an effort.
That was a great statement!
Thanks!
Well Said. Polarization isn't the answer.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Robert
This is getting sort of silly.
I'm beginning to feel like I'm feeding a troll...
Congratulations!
I still want to see 'eyelids' on the next house. <g>
I'm curious about the "northern climate zones 6-8". Apparently these have no correlation to climate zones for plants with which i'm familiar?
Seems like a very very labor intensive system.
Humans the least important? Bacteria rule? Well, only if you measure ruling and success by number of individuals.
No, conceit, but human's are clearly not the least important. If you measure our impact on the plannet and our ability to destory other species, you can hardly say least important/impactful. No other speices has this ability. Sure, someday a bacteria may morph into a mass killers. But that is a maybe, and even then it would not wipe out a complete speices. There would be survivors, vs when man wipes a species out.
So I think clearly you need to pick different words.
As for man destroying the earth, ridiculous! Change it a bit, you bet, but the earth and thousands of creatures will far out last man in the event we destroy ourselves or a meteor does it to us.
The earth will do just fine. In addition, look at Mt. St. Helens., blasted down to rock and ash, twenty years later you have fish, elk, plant life of all kinds. The earth is in the end very very resilent. This is not to say that we can't and don't make a waste.
If you say so.
look riversong... i like your houses, and i like your insulation levels
but <<<<more cost-effective than almost any other system in common use>>>
gimme a break
you've already said that you underpay yourself when you build these
so .. if you were paying living wages, how could you build them as "cost-effective"
i applaud you for your convictions.. but your lifestyle is not transferrable to the average husband , wife, and two kids
Thanks for the sanity Mike. We have the zealot and the Unibomber posting here.
<<<<<the rest of the trade overcharges in order to support an unsustainable middle-class consumer lifestyle. If we base our labor rates on what the most important producers in our society - farmers - make, then every one of us overcharges for our time.>>>>
are u ok ?
you've never made a payroll have you ?
and you certainly don't have a clue what farmers are making
<<you've never made a payroll have you ?and you certainly don't have a clue what farmers are making>>Bingo! I'm laughing out loud here! But I said I'd dig up all my old energy star HERS ratings if he put his on the web so now I have to dig them all up. Must be incredibly fun to be that young and self-righteous. Bet he gets' all the chicks. ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
you also live among farmers who make a good deal of money.. and you live among farmers who will be paid a good deal in tax money not to develop their land
....
you are proselytizing a life-style that not all , or even many , can follow
<<<<I live in a 300 sf cabin with no indoor plumbing, a composting outhouse, wood heat and a wood-fired hot tub for my bath. And yet my ecological footprint is still far bigger than what the Earth can tolerate, given how many of us homonids crawl around on her skin.>>>>
yeah... i know... we should all be in yurts
so... again... what is this "cost-effective" building that you are doing..
it's green, it's superinsulated... but if no one but you or someone living your lifestyle , can duplicate it , what good is it ?
how does it make things better for the common citizen.. other than as a laboratory for insulation
just the fact that you have no sheathing would mean you couldn't build in RI
you couldn't comply with the shear requirements ( and no... the T-straps don't qualify )
so.... where we have to comply with buyilding codes and wind resistance, where is the cost-effectiveness of your building ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Sorry to interupt your cat fight... <meow>
Actually, there would be nothing in the design that I can see that would prevent installing shear panels on the interior face of those trusses. I'm not sure exactly how the transition between floors would work, but that would seem to be something easy to work out.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
he ain't so young.. ......
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
He must be young.
He knows as much as I did when I was 19YO
and has a similar attitude to what I had then
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HA!
Are you trying to say your attitude has SOFTENED!?!
HA! HA!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
Damn right, you freakin screwy left coaster!
;)
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Bet he gets' all the chicks
Bet not, he uses his bath water for 6 months & doesn't use soap because it's healthier to have an intact layer of body oils.
How many chicks you think that will attract?
Joe H
You live in lala land. Your enter post is of no value or consequence to anything. Now green algae is on the verge of extinction? NOOOOOOOO, sorry.
River, I am so tire of everyone claiming all this documentation, and then never producing any or it. And then even if they do it is suspect as it typically comes from selfserving sources. Or, it tells only half the story. So what if you build the most energy efficinet home? So what? Anyone can do that. ANd in fact I could build one more efficinet than any you build? So what. That is only half the story.
Now Zealots only see one side, the worship efficinency, they don't care about cost or lie about it. They don't can that you build a piece of garbage with twelve inch deep window sill, who would live in that?
So you say I am dismissive, well they I say you are arrgoant and a crazed zealot.
You see, I was interested in discussion, but your have a bur up your or under your saddle.
Oh, now one month's utilities pays for a house wiht the equivalent of three studs vs one. One month, would be about $150 tops, if you save 67% that would be $100. Gee, you can really source a cheap stud.
do right..... you'd better do right..
robert can certainly teach us a few things ... i've certainly learned a few from him.. and i bet he has more to teach Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Who is robert?
Build outside of code and get approval.
I truly would like to know how you accomplished that .
I have built a lot of buildings that had parts of them that were not done as per code.
In each case I had to get approval based on an engineer taking full responsibility for what I did.
And even then I had to prove that what I was doing complied with the intent of the code.
Are all the structures you mention engineered and the plans stamped?
You and I have discussed the fire block issue. I didn't pursue the discussion because you say you managed to get your building approved, I will sit here and tell you I will make a fair sized donation to you local dairy farmer if you could get that approved as a system across the board in all jurisdictions.
My local city inspectors would simply hand you the code book and say show me the reference and the tests for your systems. Not there, block it.
Now just as an aside I also have been building energy efficient buildings since the very early 1970's. I applaud the efforts, and I do what I can .
However anyone who wishes to return to the village living days has, in my fathers words, never lived in a village full of horses and their droppings on a hot summer day.
When one looks at many of the devices that even the most energy efficient items use and traces the source of them and what is required to build them we discover that in fact mines are needed, as are steel mills, aluminum smelters, etc. and for each of those things the needed environmental impact must be paid for.
Thanks. Some of us out here appreciate what you have to say, and have learned something from this thread. The world would be a better place if more people had your mindset.
I agree. Some of us are in a different boat so to speak, and for that I am glad.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Build outside of code and get approval.
I truly would like to know how you accomplished that .
There are still lots of places, like my little town in Maine, that have no building code whatsoever. No code, no approvals, no inspections, except, in my case, the drain lines were inspected to see that proper slope was maintained.
i live in OR same as Dovetail, The Building inspectors carry there code books and quote the holy book Chapter and verse, Much like the mullahs holding to sharia law its not open to discussion or improvising. coming up with something new is viewed like Madonna dancing with a bacon thong while menstruating I most sointly applaud new ideas but like Paul sings... Listen to what the MAN says.
Good One !! To Understand the "Why" of it all one has to do is look at this PDF of the seismic zones and wind zones for the U.S. Seems we rate #2 in seismic and a "special " rate for winds. We are truly blessed to be so special here. ;-) http://www.ivi-intl.com/art/IVI_Map_S-W.pdf
Edited 3/5/2008 1:17 am by dovetail97128
Did you just HAVE TO go and paint that verbal picture?
I don't know if I'll be able to sleep tonight after that
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and this one
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
well, you wanted to bumo it...
View ImageMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I see Dino gave up on the speedo and went to green shorts....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Lets hope.
And leave the fleas and skeeters off this time, I hate itching. (G)
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
You left crabs off that list of itchy things.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I have not had the displeasure of meeting any crabs except the edible variety. And thems I love.
Now, chiggers can be added at any time to the "do not sail" list.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
<<<I've been asked by inspectors for an engineer's stamp on outside of code structures, such as the shallow, frost-protected foundation and the rubble trench foundation >>>
i've done rubble trench and my inspector would approve shallow frost protection
but he won't accept your structure for shear resistance.. and the T-braces don't qualify.. wether you got them approved or not
anyways.. that is small potatoes....
if you add the cost of doing business to your house , then the "cost-effectiveness" you claim is nothing more than your gift to the homeowner
congratulations on your generosity.. but it won't buy groceries for me or my two employees
so.. let's get real...
as a DIY.. your house is great...
as a product of a construction business, you are not recovering your costs, nor making a contribution to overhead , nor making a profit to bank against rainy days or old age
Riversong
Good evening Robert.
I have enjoyed this thread immensely. At first there was so much content and I had so little time that I couldn't read it fast enough to get ahead of it.
I agreed with Mike Smith. We can learn alot from you and I am glad you joined the BT community. I am sorry if some in the BT community have gotten their feathers ruffled.
As Thumper says"If you can't say nufing nice then don't say nufing at all" Wisdom from Bambi.
As for how you live and charge for your work, go for. Didn't hurt my grandparents, but then they changed over to indoor plumbing. And don't expect alot of converts either.
Building with local materials would put us in a crunch out here in Iowa unless we could figure out a way to make 2x4s out of corn stalks. We don't have many trees and the ones we do have are needed right where they are. Can you picture us going back to sod huts? How about a soddy with a three stall garage. LOL
Early in the thread I admired how you handled all the questions with a calm demeanor. Later in the thread when you started to get into the Gaia stuff and the earth can't sustain the population you started to lose me.
I was reading the Mother Earth News back in the mid 70's and the Population Bomb stuff. According to our thinking back then we were going to be in a world of hurt right now. Most of what was projected by the Population Bomb folks has turned out to be wrong.
I thought we were going to be out of oil and food by now.
We don't have starving kids in America, we have people in poverty who are obese as the plug in their I Pods. It's not for lack of good nutrition for these people, it's because they make the wrong choices. (Most world hunger is caused by civil strife and war.)
Same is true for our energy choices, be it homes or vechiles. Most of it is status driven. Not until it gets to be too expensive will people change their ways.
Some of your methods are not going to translate into the market across the nation. That you can build that way for you and your customers is great, we just have to learn from your methods and translate it into our world reality, and not be crabby about it.
Your methods and your lifestyle are threatening to people, that's why they are crabby.
We home schooled our kids before it was popular. I've seen the pattern before.
That being said I don't want to adopt your lifestyle or your business practices. But don't let me stop you.
My question about the Larsen truss system (and all I have to go on is the diagram early in the thread where the outside wall was resting on 1" plywood) is how does that outside wall resist sagging? Seems to me that 1x4 gussets are not going to be enough.
I have also been in barns in a rain storm and drop siding ( I think what you are describing is similar to what we call Dutch lap and we have tons of it on farm buildings) is not very weather tight. therefore a good drainage plane or 2 layers of house wrap would be a good idea.
That's enough of my thoughts. Keep pushing the envelope on insulation and sharing with us.
Rich
"Your methods and your lifestyle are threatening to people"
Not in the least. He can't threaten the warts on a frog.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Riversong
Now see what you've done.
You've gotten the Pauls riled up.
I'm going to get some popcorn.
Rich
When Noah was building the ark, I was building an underwater biodome that had pizza and hot chicks.
Robert
In a thread about 1 year ago the Pauls went around and around over the shear strenght of screws vs nails.
It was kind of an inside joke.
Rich
" I use drop siding pattern 105, which is a well-draining ship-lap 3/4 spruce siding that's as water tight as any siding on the market and more than most."
That is the biggest load of BS you have dumped so far in this thread
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
No I don't, because I have no interest in "selling" my services other than by word-of-mouth in my local watershed, and I also prefer to teach face-to-face.
A website isn't just a matter of selling. If you're trying to foster your energy efficient/responsible methods, a website would potentially spread that message to more folks than you could ever teach face-to-face. As you can see here, there has been a lot of interest in these methods with folk wanting more info. And as you've already mentioned earlier in the thread, there aren't many current books/websites out there with this info.
A website is very good for presenting info (and keeps you from having to answer the same question 1k times).
jt8
"The unfortunate thing about this world is that good habits are so much easier to give up than bad ones."
-- Somerset Maugham
interesting
Is he anything like JAcob?
Cool, I'll take a look at both links. You might still keep your own website in the back of you head. You never know when you might get a web-savy student in one of your classes who would be willing to set it up for you. If you're setting up a mostly informational website, there is very little updating to do unless you want to put new pics/info on it.
jt8
"The unfortunate thing about this world is that good habits are so much easier to give up than bad ones."
-- Somerset Maugham
I don't recall any documentation on your part only blowing out your...
If you can't document, yell at the other guy. Sure. Pitiful, and all too typcial.
Well, i've tried to follow along, with limited success.
I was the one who asked you about a HRV, and you said all that was handled by the exhaust-only kitchen and bath fans. There is a woodstove and a propane boiler. The woodstove has make-up air, i seem to recall. Does the boiler? I was asleep one night in a friend's basement bedroom when the woodstove pulled air out of the water-heater exhaust earlier in the night, then as the fire died down the water-heater pulled the smoke out of the woodstove. I got a horrid headache and a really sore throat, but i might not have lived in a tighter house.
Also, when i asked about air exchange, you talked about how the cellulose walls 'breathe', but my question was about air quality, not the acceptance and release of water vapor.
There is also the conundrum touched out about VP on the inside of buildings. You say they aren't necessary, then that you use VB paint (which you then say really doesn't work), glue your DW on, and use sealable boxes behind the electrical boxes.
Either you have a tight VB, or you don't. Your cells act either like a sponge, or they don't. They definitely aren't acting like lungs to remove toxins in regard to my air-quality question, and not even as a sponge to moderate MC if they have a VB over them.
While you don't have any control over the tantrums of children, you certainly have the option of acting like the adult here. The map you gave me in cursory response to my question is just about useless without a source or explanation. A map..great. I could probably have found one, too.
Like Mike Smith, i'm glad you're writing bec he extent of my ignorance is profound and growing, though i try to buy some time through education. However, if the aim of your life is sustainablity and fostering community, you have much to learn from us.
So your K&B fans are on a timer? I was thinking about what you said about electricity going out in your rural environment. I'll assume for now that you have make-up supplying your propane boiler, and some way of keeping it from siphoning until it's used.
Thanks for your thinking on the vapor retarder. I'm still unclear then what the purpose of the pans behind the electrical boxes serves, unless you are trying for that seal you say you don't need. Is that just a code req there or what?
I live in a desert (Montana) so exfiltration doesn't apply. I hope you can understand i'm trying to learn principles, not just practices.
As for the map---sorry, i'm not buying the excuse. I wouldn't think of posting anything like that without sourcing it for the person who asked. That it didn't jibe with my knowledge of climate maps from being a gardener was sufficient clue that i needed to know what it was based on. You are way too sharp and savvy to plead ignorance.
Re community building...i'm in complete agreement with you about the childish insults, both the ones directed at you and your retorts. What you're getting is quite mild, though, compared to some of the female-unfriendly remarks back in the day. That your experiences on various fora never changes may have more to do with you than the fora, however. My approach has changed a lot over the eight years since i joined and consequently so have my experiences. I quit posting twice, absolutely disgusted, but when i gained more skills i came back, the last time bec this community was so kind to the new widow. Now the moderator has to forcibly remove me to get a respite!
You're obviously here to promote an agenda. People who are receptive to it are becoming disenchanted with the message simply because of the messenger. I think that's a crying shame.
Okay, enough smarmy stuff. I promise it won't happen again...today. ;^)
Electrical boxes are a primary source of in/exfiltration
Certainly in a normal wall, but you've still got about nine or ten inches of cells behind the box, right?
Map <flogging horse>: 50+ posts later you're letting me in on the secret that it's an Energy Star map. Maybe you shouldn't assume that everyone is as familiar as you with the program and anticipate...as a good teacher would.
If you see the ghost of "agenda" in my sharing
Sure i do, but if you assume the word "agenda" is deceitful or negative, perhaps it's you who is paranoid.
I have an agenda, too, to promote animal rights. If i hang out with my hummus-eating buds, i don't get much chance. If i get invited to my neighbors' potlucks and BBQs, the subject always (always <G>) comes up almost on its own. If i went all high-and-mighty on them, however, i wouldn't get invited to any more BBQs, ergo no more 'sharing' my ethic.
Same with you and your desire to spread the gospel of green building. I just don't expect everyone to convert all at once like you do. I'm sneaking up on 'em gradual-like....
No, darlin'....i read your earlier post, re-read it, and still had no idea it was a proprietary Energy Star map, which is why i asked.
If i have to google everything myself, i won't need you any longer. You'd miss me, i bet.
Anybody who has ever worked around that siding already knows what I am talking about. but it will let your walls vent fine
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
We've got drop siding on our camp in Augusta. It's been ok for 70 years.
OTOH, Robert did say that it's as watertight as any siding...and we know how watertight other sidings are...or aren't.
I'll buy that since we are living in the Clintonian era of the English language, depending what the meaning of are is
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Robert is the one who just reported you for violating terms of use. Keep it up and you'll be gone again soon.
Guy's been here a month and he's deciding who can stay and who goes?
Man with a chip on his shoulder.
Joe H
Don't push your luck.
You are an arrogant man with a chip on his shoulder.
Are you as pleasant in person as you are here?
You have a lot in common with many of the trolls that have come and gone here over the years.
Joe H
robert: here's a few tips you might consider:
How to Win Friends and Influence People
This is Dale Carnegie's summary of his book, from 1936
Table of Contents
Fundamental Techniques in Handling People
Six Ways to Make People Like You
How to Win People to Your Way of Thinking
Be a Leader: How to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment
Part One
Fundamental Techniques in Handling People
Don't criticize, condemn or complain.
Give honest and sincere appreciation.
Arouse in the other person an eager want.
Part Two
Six ways to make people like you
Become genuinely interested in other people.
Smile.
Remember that a person's name is to that person the sweetest and most important sound in any language.
Be a good listener. Encourage others to talk about themselves.
Talk in terms of the other person's interests.
Make the other person feel important - and do it sincerely.
Part Three
Win people to your way of thinking
The only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it.
Show respect for the other person's opinions. Never say, "You're wrong."
If you are wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically.
Begin in a friendly way.
Get the other person saying "yes, yes" immediately.
Let the other person do a great deal of the talking.
Let the other person feel that the idea is his or hers.
Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view.
Be sympathetic with the other person's ideas and desires.
Appeal to the nobler motives.
Dramatize your ideas.
Throw down a challenge.
Part Four
Be a Leader: How to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing ResentmentA leader's job often includes changing your people's attitudes and behavior. Some suggestions to accomplish this:
Begin with praise and honest appreciation.
Call attention to people's mistakes indirectly.
Talk about your own mistakes before criticizing the other person.
Ask questions instead of giving direct orders.
Let the other person save face.
Praise the slightest improvement and praise every improvement. Be "hearty in your approbation and lavish in your praise."
Give the other person a fine reputation to live up to.
Use encouragement. Make the fault seem easy to correct.
Make the other person happy about doing the thing you suggest.
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
We hand that Dale Carnegie Book out to every new employee, bet I'v given away 25 copies over the years and read it a few times myself to help keep my head on straight. Nice to see it encapsulated here so succinctly.------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Mike
How to Win Friends and Influence People
This is Dale Carnegie's summary of his book, from 1936
That's good.
I need that on a post it note, to keep in front of me as I go about my day.
Rich
Mike
How to Win Friends and Influence People
This is Dale Carnegie's summary of his book, from 1936
After my wife read that she copied it and tpaed it next to the computer.
She said, "I have alot of good things to impart to other people, but sometimes I just come off wrong". She's a zealot about her Christian faith and she can't stand a luke warm Christian (adults).
But you put her in a group of floundering teenagers or grade school kids and they are hanging all over her like they need a Mom in their lives.
Thanks from DW
Rich
Those of you so enamored with Dale Cargnegie's recipe for success should at least acknowledge that it was written as a success manual for salesmen (as that was how Dale learned his craft and that was the audience he wrote for).
So the primary purpose of his "recipe" was to offend no one, butter them up, and massage their egos until they buy whatever you're selling.
Ironically, the foundational Cargnegie principle that is most often overlooked is what he called the "responsibility assumption" - which meant to assume responsibility for how you react to others and not blame them for your own perceptions.
good point , robert...
<<<<which meant to assume responsibility for how you react to others and not blame them for your own perceptions.>>>
or as robert burns put it .....
<<<<
O wad some Power the giftie gie usTo see oursels as ithers see us!It wad frae mony a blunder free us,An' foolish notion:What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us,An' ev'n devotion!To a Louse, Robert Burns >>>>>>
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"which meant to assume responsibility for how you react to others and not blame them for your own perceptions."
Amen,
Now go write that on your blackboard 1000 times.Or as it was put another way...
physician....heal thyself.
Well I am always responsible for my actions (couldn't blame anyone else for such nonsense).
Let's get back to talking about building.
I think one of the more unique espects of your version of the double wall system is the absence of plywood.
was reading how with ply it had a very high earthquack rating.
How do they fare without.
Well, the last earthquake in VT was a 4.2 tremor in 1962. Not a major consideration hereabouts.
I've built in this style in western MA and VT and, as far as I know, not even a crack in the drywall.
Trees that are flexible often fare better in a high wind than trees that are stiff. High rises in eathquake country like CA are built on teflon pads so they can move. Rigid structures, like concrete foundations, often fare poorly when disturbed.
It's true that you can't beat plywood shear panels for rack bracing, and I did use a couple of internal plywood shear walls in my last house (mainly because the homeowner wanted to cover the colored slab with ply to prevent damage and I wanted to find a use for it beyond the window boxes). But I've yet to experience a problem using steel t-bracing in the load-bearing frame.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
So how do we bring this into the larger construction world?
I'd say the hurdles would be something like-Foreign to most builders More work to frame
No plywood makes everyone nervous
deep windows are not for everyone
Building on slab makes remodels hard and a lack of storage. (plus utilities are in living space)
Cost?
This is not a criticism but rather how can we make this more palatable
to the mainstream?
As to the plywood, why could you not put it on the inside instead of the outside? If drywall hanging was the concern, you would just have to cover your nail/screw lined with a stapled on paper drywall shim. This would allow the butts to be pulled into the plywood for a smooth butt finish as it would be between studs.
As for fastening the plywood webs in the trusses, we did alot of similar work with building sets. We fastened 1/4" ply to boards using glue and staples. This might be a little faster and cheaper than gun nails.
How would building on slab be any harder?Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
I don't think it's harder to build on slab ( Easier really).
Just talking about it's draw backs.
First an foremost living on a slab has a "Trailer" connotation.
Cheap is the word I've heard thrown around. Changing peoples perceptions can be hard.
Second no basement for storage or utilities.
I mentioned somewhere that a friend of mine is designing them with
a partial basement (or crawl space) for utilities.
Much like the traditional homes around here.
I don't expect my approach to "green" building to ever become mainstream, because in that world getting the job done as quickly as possible and making the product as "saleable" as possible is the path of least resistance.
Innovators are always those who follow a less traveled way (both builders and homeowners).
However, the Larsen Truss wall system is a wonderful alternative to stress-skin panels for wrapping a timber frame (it's being done here in VT). And it's also a wonderful option for retrofitting existing housing, which is what it was designed for.
The modifed Larsen Truss wall system was an innovation I created for new construction. I happen to prefer minimal foundations, green rough-sawn lumber and board sheathing (or no sheathing), but the system is highly adaptable.
This wall system can be built on a full basement (I've done that). But radiant slabs are gaining popularity, are going into high end housing, and a super-efficient house needs such a small heating plant that it can easily be hidden in a small closet (or eliminated entirely for those who want to heat only with wood). Also, the freeze-proofing quality of an earth-coupled slab can be a selling point, as is the cost savings which can be put into other amenities.
Plywood sheathing on the exterior framing is an option, though it's more difficult to install than on flat walls before raising.
I never suggested that this wall system should replace conventional platform framing - it won't because platform framing was designed for its simplicity. But for those looking for a better, more natural way to superinsulate a house, it's hard to beat.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Oh I think you mistook my train of thought.
You have worked hard to develop a very efficient and sustainable building system. I'm not questioning that at all.
It seams to me the next logical step would be to find a way to positively influence the modern building trade.
So I felt perhaps getting some feed back from others on how they would alter the design to their tastes would be interesting.
hey, man... easy....
you give out a lot of good information , but most of it is lost because of your presentation
you should read some of carnegies book and take it to heart
oh, and get down off the table...
the management doesn't like it
hey.... Doud asked you a question...
questions deserve answers
Too bad it has to be this way.
That said, don't let the door hit you in the ####.
Jesse or Robert,
I am trying to figure out what happened to this thread.
It looks like perhaps OP and or others got "rude" and then OP's posts were deleted.
Question is.... did Robert pull his posts or was it management?
John B
very interesting... kind of like when FredL left
only he went back and inserted a . in every one of his posts
then he got pizzed when Joe replaced all his posts , which he had previously copied
oh, well....
i guess i 'll have to sign up for one of Riversong's classes if i want to learn moreMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike
I should probalby post to All.
I probably going to get in trouble for this. But.
Get off his case.
I am probably the polar opposite of Riversong, but I apprieciate his input.
Yeah, he is an idealist, a zealot, maybe a know it all, he lives and works in way that won't transfer to a mass market (even a niche market) and he doesn't have the resources to document all he claims. But he thinks outside the box and his input on this and other posts his usually helpful. See thread "header design" this week.
I don't think he started the nastyness. Maybe his "I'm right" attitude provoked it. When the thread started I admired his calm in dealing with all the questions.
There are alot of crude attitudes and divergent lifestyles discussed here that I don't agree with, but they have something to offer if I am willing to spit out the bones. Or I just choose not to post or not to read.
Riversong. When ShelterNerd and Mike Smith (and there are others) post something I have learned to listen. I know enough to not argue with them because I know they have walked paths I have yet to walk, and a road map is always a helpful thing. They are researching their methods and are more advanced then me in building science.
And if you want to save the planet then you are going to have to get a great number of people to change their ways, and make more responsible decisions.
To All. Like Thumper (in Bambi) says "If you can't say somfthing nice, then don't say nufing at all".
Rich
ok, rich...
but somehow i don't think it will be an issue anymore
too bad.. riversong had a lot of good stuff to share...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike
too bad.. riversong had a lot of good stuff to share...
I agree.
Hopefully I will learn a lesson here.
- Be careful how you say things.
- Hold others in higher esteem than yourself.
Rich
It doens't matter what you have to sell, it's the presentation and public image/opinion that makes the sale.
John
I don't think Riversong closed the sale.
Rich
I've moved into the woods, off the grid.
I owned nothing-I mean if I couldn't carry it I didn't want it.
I went with out a permanent home for years, mostly lived in a tent.
No car only a bicycle.
I would Only eat local organic food. So I do have some perspective on the lifestyle and ideals that Riversong adheres to.
So taken with a grain of salt, my opinion.
Those that withdraw from mainstream society tend to do it for personal reasons. That is why they come off as zealots.
It is a rare person indeed that gives up worldly possessions and the company of people.
I think it is a sad sign that he comes off so arrogantly, not to mention argumentatively. But I feel that his conflict has little to do with anyone here. He probably carries trouble with him in wheelbarrow.
That said, I'm new to online forums myself. So far it seams you need to be rather thick skinned to hang out here. No problem, just be prepared for someone to disagree with anything you say... At all
Including this
Henley
Welcome to Breaktime.
Be careful. Breaktime can become addicting.
This is the only forum I visit. One is enough.
It's not a bad thing to be a zealot. John the Baptist, the Apostle Paul, Susan B Anthony and myself in certain areas. I don't think John the Baptist would be my 1st choice to watch the Superbowl with.
When I was 25 I read Mother Earth News, we were going to build a earth sheltered home, put up a wind generator, grow our own food and live a life independent of the system.
We were in the early food co-ops, breast fed the kids, home schooled the kids, wildlife conservation. Some of what we did has now become mainstream, but 25 years ago we bucked a lot of headwinds. So I can relate to Riversong too.
When the thread get nasty I just stop going there. I was intrigued by his wall building concepts that's why I keep coming back to this thread.
BT (Breaktime) is a wonderful community of people. I have been helped in many ways here. I come here to get my thinking about my business expanded. Sometimes I need a paradigm shift because I am so busy doing the business and being the Dad.
I will post link to a thread from Nov 07 that clearly shows how wonderful and compassionate the BT community can be.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=96278.105
My Handicap son may be moving out
Rich
Thank you for sharing that with me . I don't know what to say, except God bless and thank you.
Back to the Larsen Trusses....I've been putting a lot of miles on the Information Highway looking up info on wood foundations and happened to run across this site with some pictures!http://www.greenfret.com/house/larsen.htmlPS: "Bensonwood" is mentioned in the article. Is this the same "Benson" from Slateman's photo essay on the Timber-Frame?
Edited 3/1/2008 6:17 pm by splintergroupie
the very same......
6 degrees of separation....... small world...... and all thatMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
To add to what I wrote earlier...
In written communications, especially since it's so easy with the net and the foundation of these forums: How things are interpreted is 50% of how it was written and the words used. The other 50% is the manner in which the reader interprets it and that's strongly guided by the attitude of the reader at that moment.
So even if soemthing is written benignly someone is going to take offense.
Thick skin is good.
Robert's a new situation here...I second the proposal that we don't chase him off for his bad manners...he's got too much good information to share.
To all,
I came to this forum to share my knowledge, expertise and experience, and to learn what others might have to share. I probably should have stayed out of the Tavern, as those off-topic discussions can get pretty brutal - and they did.
Some of that rough-housing was carried back into the on-topic discussions, and the responses kept getting more personal and more insulting. I realized that I was also treading dangerously close to personal insult in trying to defend both myself and my statements.
When the personal attacks came back to this thread (which had been dormant for a while), I decided I'd had enough and I asked a BT moderator to delete all my posts and remove my profile. She said she couldn't do a global delete, so I decided to at least remove myself from this thread as it was just becoming another target for those who couldn't seem to stick it to me enough.
Since I couldn't easily remove my tracks from BT after having posted more than 700 times, I decided to stick around but only to offer technical building tips where it seemed appropriate.
I have no interest in continuing to trade barbs and the level of disrespect I've encountered here speaks poorly for both the building trades and for Taunton.
I'm glad, at least, that my post deletions have spurred a more constructive discussion about the way people interact here. I hope that it improves the dialogue and the overall tone of BT.
I don't like flame wars, and when a thread reaches that point, I just ignore it, even if the flames are directed at me. I have enough things to get spun out about without losing sleep over a stupid internet forum. I will say Riversong, that you might look at your posts. You come across as a condescending know it all who thinks he knows the single right answer. Maybe you don't mean to sound that way at all. But that is the way you come across. I'm not trying to flame you, just telling you how you sound.
I will say Riversong, that you might look at your posts. You come across as a condescending know it all who thinks he knows the single right answer. Maybe you don't mean to sound that way at all. But that is the way you come across. I'm not trying to flame you, just telling you how you sound.
Here we go again.
You just can't resist, can you?
I don't need to read my posts, I wrote them. And, unlike most people, I craft my words with the same care that I craft my houses - as words are the most important tool that humans use.
I also know what I know and I'm not going to hide my knowledge or expertise because it makes some people insecure about their own expertise or knowledge.
Rather than tossing out unsolicited (and completely unwelcome) advice, you might consider how you choose to read my words - for your interpretation has much more to do with your perspective than on "how I sound".
For someone "not trying to flame" you do a wonderful job of it.
Robert,Sorry to see it's come to this. I'm disappointed that you feel a need to remove your posts. I lived through the cellulose wars here many years ago. That ended with a poster deleting his posts and disappearing in a huff. It only made him look bad, and the loss of his knowledge was a loss for this forum.I hope you stick around and continue to participate. Steve
Peace man.Marson sounds like he just wants to help you...you might need his insight more than you know. He is in good company, Mike Smith mentioned Dale Carnegie in the same vein.Personally, I find your approach to building thought provoking. We all have something to learn and something to contribute.
Riversong
I welcome you back. I was fascinated by your wall building concepts. I welcome a different perspective.
I stay out of the tavern too. If it is a political discussion than it is read only for me. I don't have time BS.
In discussing another thread with my wife she said " You can say it nice, or you can say it mean, but if their ears are closed they are never going to hear what you are saying."
In the tread "Calling it quits" you will see a BT community that functions as good neighbors should.
This is another example of what a wonderful community this can be.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=96278.105
My Handicap son may be moving out
Please stay around and add to the flavor.
Rich