How much lateral bracing is enough? I just completed framing two duplexes (in record time to brag on the guys) but had a big issue with an employee and the general contractor on the job. I come in one morning toward the completion of the first duplex and the guy who is supposed to lateral brace the trusses says he is done. I tell him,”you can’t be done, I see tags for bracing all over the place!” “General contractor told me that was enough”, is how he responded to me. After explain liability that I feel, and explain gen co is not his boss, he proceeds to put in what is called for in the way of lateral bracing. (Psst….I agree that it looks like to much, but not the point)
Same spot, next building. We have same discussion, then I fire him. I used the line, “If you want to do want gen co says then go to work for him.” At the end of the day many of the guys tell me I was to rough on him. They thought It was enough bracing the way he had it. I would live in the house with the bracing the way he had it, but truss company said do it. I don’t think they just added tags to be a pain in the azz. I have a responsibility to frame to the specs I am given.
Do any of you guys ever skimp on the lateral bracing that trusses require?
On a different but similar note. We finished one week ahead of schedule. The next project is not ready for us for a full week. Gave the guys a week off with 4 days pay as a bonus. Even paid the guy I fired 4 extra days because he was part of crew that busted some serious azz through all this heat we have been getting.
Fired guy has already called and asked for his job back. Even offered to return his bonus for another chance. I don’t know what to do. All help appreciated.
An inch too short. That’s the story of my life !
bstcrpntr — I hope to grow into this name.
Replies
Seems to me that as far as the bracing goes, it's an issue of A) Him doing what you instructed him and B) The legal liability. As far as hiring him back, was he with you long enough for you to have a sense of whether he will be a valuable member of the team and whether this will be a recurring theme? If he's a good worker otherwise and not ordinarily given to second guessing your instructions I'd consider giving him another chance after making sure he understands this is his one opportunity to shine. I've had similar situations and sometimes a guy who's given a second chance will really appreciate it...
I don't understand these posts about how much bracing for trusses and all that crap because if someone is going to install trusses and to your question, "How much lateral bracing is enough?" isn't there specs on where all the braces go?
If there is specs on where truss braces should go and people don't follow them then they're all A$$HOLES and should be fired and if the GC doesn't want your crew to put them in then tell him to go F---K Himself and put them in anyway because if they fall down it's your A$$.
What is so hard about following directions on how to install trusses......I don't get it.
You did the right thing by firing this idiot because your his boss and he should do what you tell him to do which was the right thing and if the GC is telling him to do the wrong thing then him and the GC can go play with themselves and have a happy life together.
If I come across a set of plans that call for trusses in the future, I want all the installation instructions there like rat runs, bracing and whatever it is that no one seems to want to follow before I install trusses. I just don't get why people skimp on doing what they're supposed to do with trusses. How many times has someone posted a thread on truss collapses and people still don't do the right thing. They're all a bunch of A$$HOLES that shouldn't even be framing.............
There are insatllation instructions with I-joists that we follow so why not with trusses????????
The problem you have with him is not one of the four days pay. It is one of his refusing to do what his boss - you - says to do, even in what copuld be a life or death situation. That is what he needs to demonstrate apology and change of heart over.
It sounds like the other great problem here is morale though. The resst of the guys agree with him and you have a hard humping crew that sound worth keeping, and keeping happy.
So it's time for a picnic and compromise meeting with everyone involved. if everyone is mature about it, you'll have a gangbusters start with everyone on the next one.
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Dude, I've seen that happen alot....not truss bracing.
Talking about so &so telling your men how to do something while you're away...be it the builder,forman or owner of company.
Seems you need to tell the GC to quit telling your guys what to do.
If there are tags on the webs of the trusses, that means that the web is in compression and needs a brace to keep it from buckling.
I would pay particular attention to any webs that have TWO tags at 1/3 points. That means those webs are very long and have a lot of compression. Those will definitely need the braces - No question about it.
I've seen a lot of them left out. Most of the time you'll probably get away with it. But what about the one time that you don't?
For what little time and material it takes to put the braces on, I don't think it's worth skimping on.
"If there are tags on the webs of the trusses, that means that the web is in compression and needs a brace to keep it from buckling."
Thanks for that info. Can I extrapolate that if lat bracing is not spec'd on a web but on others, then that particular web is under tension, or it is too short to deflect under comp loads?
Now what about lateral bracing the bottom chords: what function do these braces perform, other than keeping things o.c.?
Finally, and this is to the framers here: say you guys are installing 2x4 lat bracing - do you nail each intersection with one or two 16s? My own approach is 2, others say 1.
I brace wherever the specs call for it. Roofs are a stupid and dangerous place to save on labour and materials.
Boss, thanks for helping us out once more.
Here's a shot at web braces, and when/why they're required. In general, a web in tension doesn't need a continuous lateral brace (Or CLB)But - Once a web reaches a certain length/depth ration, a CLB is required. But this only happend on REALLY tall trusses. (Webs ~12' long or longer)A fairly short web with a little compression won't require a CLB. But as the forces increase, one CLB might be required. If the web is longer and the forces are higher, two CLBs might be required. If the web doesn't work with 2 CLBs, the program will increase the lumber grade and/or size until it works. .To give you an idea of why CLBs are needed, think of this: Take a yardstick and stand it up on end on the floor. Put the palm of your hand flat on top of it, and push down. The yardstick will accept a small amount of force without buckling. But push a little harder and it will bow out towards one side or the other. Now with your other hand restrain the yardstick in the middle. Then press down on the top and see how much more force it accepts before it starts to buckle. .One more note about CLBs - The CLBs are supposed to be braced off to something solid. If you just run a CLB across a bunch of webs on identical trusses, it's possible that all the webs will buckle in the same direction together. The CLBs must be restrained so that this can't happen..As for nailing - Every requirement I've seen says that braces should be fastened with a minimum of two 16D commons. The nails must be driven flush, and not have the heads left sticking up for easy removal. That applies to both CLBs and erection bracing.I tried to find a reference for this real quick, but didn't come up with it..And braces on the bottom chords are probably for overall building bracing. Trusses don't require bottom chord braces unless they're in compression, which is rare..I hope that wasn't too long. But it covers most of what I know on the subject.
The most powerful force in the universe is compound interest [Einstein]
A minimum of two nails for the braces.
We've got idjits here who swear that one is plenty fine, can you believe it. I argued for two and won that one - didn't make friends, but at least the roof'll hold.
Thanks again.
> Every requirement I've seen says that braces should be fastened with a minimum of two 16D commons. The nails must be driven flush, and not have the heads left sticking up for easy removal.
How about double head aka duplex nails?
-- J.S.
"How about double head aka duplex nails? "
I believe those are fine also. The main thing, I think, is that the nail be driven in all the way.
I'll check around a bit and see what I can dig up on it.
Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish. [Einstein]
I told ya I'd try to dig up the "official" word on nailing requirements for CLBs. And this is as close as I could get.
Taken from BSCI 1-03 - Building Component Safety Information" published by the Wood Truss Council of America and the Truss Plate Institute, page 53:
View Image
If I'd observed all the rules, I'd never have got anywhere [Marilyn Monroe]
Thanks again BH.
Funny how the GC, presumably not an engineer or even qualified to specify truss design or utilization, is, according to him, expert enough to define what is sufficient in the way of bracing.
I wonder. If some of those trusses which were not installed according to the truss manufacturers specifications failed would the GC step forward, take responsibility and cover the costs out of his own pocket? Failing that would his insurance step boldly forward and agree to cover any losses associated with his ideas on bracing? Would the GC, who may actually be an expert, agree to sign a document relieving both you and the truss company of any responsibility for roof failure or losses associated with any inadequacy in lateral bracing?
I'm no expert but as I understand it the truss company, and/or their insurance carrier, in effect agree to make good any losses due to failure of their product as long as they are installed according to their specifications and the failure happens within the design limits of the product. Failure to install them by their rules in effect voids this warranty.
If the GC would agree to guarantee the truss installation done according to his specification everything would be OK. Of course he isn't going to guarantee anything. He is shooting from the hip. Offering his 'expert' opinion while offering no protection to you or anyone else if his opinion is wrong. Sniping from behind cover.
On the issue of the carpenter you fired it is a matter of who signs his check. If he is your employee you are paying the cost, in wages and insurance, to be the boss.
If the GC has any questions or ideas of how you should be doing the job he needs to talk to you in private. Away from your, and his, employees. He, IMHO, has no right to say boo to your employees without your express permission beforehand.
If I were you, I'd be having a heart to heart with the GC's rep that told your man what to do, or more accurately, what corners to cut. It's not up to him to do that unless you authorized him to do so.
bst... our BI requires all of the bracing diagrams be posted so he can check when he inspects..
and no trusses are allowed in our town without the engineers stamped drawings and the bracing diagram
i alos agree with piffen .. sounds like the guy has learned a lesson and you can score some morale points by rehiring him.. have a face -to-face with him and reassure yourself that he's really bought into the issue..
you can't be everywhere , so you have to rely on your guys to cover your azz and the company's azz... no one will watch your back except you and your TRUSTED employeesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hired the lad back, after a good heart to heart at the shop today. He showed up at start time, asked if he could ride w/me for a talk. He talked for an hour. I listened. He is a good hand, I want to be a good boss. I think he now realizes that i am THE BOSS.
On the issue of the GC. I told him how I felt about him talking to my guys. He has agreed from now on to talk to me, and only me. I have to be careful how I treat him though. I am bidding two jobs for him right now, and this could be the beginnign of a good thing for me and "my boy's"
Got a call today that the job that wasn't supposed to be ready until the 15th is ready. Told the general we would be there thursday at the earliest. I don't want him to expect me to jump just because he is ready. (different GC btw) Called the guys, they said they would be ready to come back wednesday. I was hoping for a day off this week myself, but i guess not.An inch to short. That's the story of my life !
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
ah... a day in the lifeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Nicely done.
Same here Mike, the first thing the inspector asks for on a framing inspection is the truss package specs with all the engineering for bracing etc.
Same here Mike, the first thing the inspector asks for on a framing inspection is the truss package specs with all the engineering for bracing etc.
That's exactly what I don't get about these bunch of Idiots who try to skimp on these things when you have specs on how to install them. It baffles me. What's the matter Idiots you can't read........ If you don't have specs on trusses then get them or don't do the job until they're in your hands. It's simple instructions............right?
Anyone who installs Roof Trusses and doesn't follow the specs should not be in buisness because they can KILL someone. Anyone who disagrees with me shouldn't be in buisness also.
Joe Carola
i remember one idiot who used to work around here.. was always landing big jobs.. on pure BS..
lost a whole 60' x 200' roof by failing to brace... had every truss set... next morning they were all inside the building in a heap...
same dude got a three alarm response ... burned all the job debris in a big heap instead of putting it in a dumpster... it got away from him with the wind.. almost lost the house..
same dude was arrested for kidnapping his landlord's dog to try to force her into something..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
On kidnapping the landlords dog? Hope it was a large Breed dog!
On the trusses, same tune here we always have to show the drawings @ Frame inspection,which calls out all braces,nailing & hangers & hardware! No papers , No Inspection!