Just came across a new cinder block below-grade sealant called Blue Max (http://www.amesresearch.com/basement.htm). There’s also another product called DryLok (http://www.ugl.com/) sold at Lowe’s. Both promote themselves as effective both inside and out for stopping leaks. Taking a survey here as to which one is better. So… “what say you???”
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Have you ever seen drylock used on the outside of a foundation? Just curious... I haven't.
OP: waterproofing a basement from the inside is like patching a leaky boat hull from the inside. Sorry, I've never heard of that other product: blue whatever
Google Image Result for http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/images/rr/rr199/Fig4-11.jpg
I did a quick Google for Footing drain details and had LOTS of hits.
Get busy!yourcontractor@aol.com
Yes - I have used it.Cracks in foundation walls
Penetrations where oles are drilled for utilities
Small honeycombing in poured foundation
Pocks from wall ties that were abnormally uglyMatter of fact, I have rarely used it on an interior. I think the one time was with a one sided wall we poured where we cut a cellar into the hillside rock ledgeI think this OP has a block wall, so Thorocrete slury would be my first choice there.
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Drain tile.
draintile and if you want to really do it up right, dig up the outside of the house and put on a waterproofing. (I would not)
The only way with block (assuming the grade extends away from the house and downspouts are extended away from the house as well) is to allow the water to drain thru the block (thru the cores) down to the bottom, punch holes in the bottom of the block below the slab level (after you remove the slab arouund the perimeter) and install draintile to pick up the water and take it to sump pump.
Sealing the inside will only trap the water in the webs of the block, so if you could see thru the block you would be looking at a pond. Just a matter of time before the dyke (sealer) you use cracks or the water finds another path
IMHO
Jeff
"Just a matter of time before the dyke (sealer) you use cracks or the water finds another path"
i've witnessed slabs (sectioned) in a basement "float" after the application of drylock.
Stopping the water outside is the only effective method.Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
Thanks for writing everybody. I agree with all of you. I've had this problem with my previous house. I'm going to seal the outside, the inside, the top side, the side side, and the below side. Then I'm going to dig up the entire outside and put in a French drain. What I was asking is this - what's better, Blue Max or Drylok???? And what is a tile drain??
View Imageyourcontractor@aol.com
I agree with your illustration except for the damp proofing. It is not enough in many soil conditions the soil itself holds the water long enough that damp proofing emulsifies and fails. Only products that are labeled as a water proofing will offer lasting protection. And in many areas that are known for poor draining soils only a water proofing product is allowed by code. There are different methods to water proof a foundation but if you follow the instructions for the system you choose the result is a completely water proof seal from grade to footing.I will admit that damp proofing is all that is required by code in many areas and if the footing drain is done correctly and is not comprised buy poor choice of pipe (that black corrugated stuff can be crushed by careless backfilling) or improper filter fabric installation. It will keep many basements dry for a long time but... Although a foundation water proofing system can add a few thousand to the cost of a foundation it is cheep if you are the one who has to pay to fix a water problem later.
My pic was only meant to be an illustrative example of what the op was looking for.
I did a quick google and that was one of the first that came up.yourcontractor@aol.com
Thanks for the pic, EricPaulson. Too late for me, but I'll show it to my GC so he'll know how to do a better foundation for his next homeowner.
View Image
yourcontractor@aol.com
"Then I'm going to dig up the entire outside and put in a French drain. What I was asking is this - what's better, Blue Max or Drylok???? And what is a tile drain??"if you are going to dig after all the other, you are going about it exactly backwards and ther e is no need whatsoever for doing the inside. As has been pointed out you can cause more damage by sealing the inside tight.The too products are apparently completely different kinds of things. Drylok is an expanding hydraulic cement based patch and fill. it kicks quickly and once you mix it, you have about 10-15 minutes to fill the suspect hole that water is penetrating. As it cures, it expands enough to pack itself tight and he pressure makes it hard for water to find a way past.
It gets used inside sometimes when water can be observed coming out of a crack or hole. Itr is too expensive for a whole wall coating, IMOThe Blue Max I had never heard of before, but from thesite you linked it appears to be a rubber coating for the outside below grade seal. You would be wrapping the wall in a rubber liquid balnket to keep water out.The most essential part of any waterproofing system is the drain tile. Old ones were made of tile, new are perforated plastic of one kind or another. It must be installed at the right location and drain to daylight or a sump.
What you are doing is giving the water a place to go. Without offering it other choices like that, the water has little choice but to enter the house and damage the wall. It will find a way in no mater waht product you use.Since this sounds like an older house, it is possible the original drain system is in failure from siltation, tree roots, lack of maintanence, or traffic crushing the tilesUsing a coating in the wrong place to fix serious problems is kind of like painting an automobile muffler to fix the fact it has rust holes in it and is making too mucch noise. It will blow right of and cause other problems without fixing what is wrong.
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You are talking about a patching product. He, I believe, is talking about an oil base or latex based waterproofing:http://www.ugl.com/drylokMasonry/masonryWaterproofer/latex.phpI've mostly seen it used on the interior, but i haven't checked their new products.In either case trying to dampproof from the inside is almost always the wrong way to go and if you are already digging around the outside there are more appropriate products to use than UGL Drylock
Barry E-Remodeler
I see. That would function more likke the Thorocrete I use I guess. Seems to be a hydraulic suspended in latex. I can see using it exterior and in swimming pools but when they market it for iinterior, you can bet that warrantee is full of holes so that it will leak like a sieve.
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Thanks everybody for your many illuminating and constructive inputs. And Mr Piffin - I went on that blog of yours someone told me about and if you don't mind my asking could you please tell me what you charged for that house raising, "Jack ... house" project? It looked like something you'd see on the History Channel about what the Pharaohs used to do. It really does give me great hope that I can do a proper fix on my foundation, too. And for what it's worth there's a bunch of "mufflers" all over my foundation but they sure as hell weren't painted my me! Again, muchos gracias!!!
And p.s. to Matt - what is an OP and what is an OTOH??? And what is the difference, again please, between draintile and that perforated sock pipe they sell at Lowe's? And thank you, sir, for your frequent inputs.
Edited 1/20/2008 9:52 am ET by bayouelton
That foundation cost got mixed with some other things going on to some degreee and bad weather probably added a couple grand to cost, but I would say it was in the range of thirty five grand to jack, replace, and backfill that- with drainage. There hasn't been a drop inside since we flashed the house to the foundation exterior. before that it was only a bit from rain down siding at the sill for awhile.
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"And p.s. to Matt - what is an OP and what is an OTOH??? And what is the difference, again please, between draintile and that perforated sock pipe they sell at Lowe's? And thank you, sir, for your frequent inputs."OP = original post or posterOTOH = on the other handdrain tile is the old clay tiles 2' long that were used when I was a kid. Some of us still use the term to apply to the plastic perforated pipe we use today that you can bu y at Lowes or other suppliers
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Thanks again, Piffin. And you too Matt.
Sorry for the internet acronyms. I try to stick with the most common ones and just hate it when people make up their own.
OP - Original Poster - the person who started the discussion, which would be you in this case.
OTOH - On The Other Hand
>> And what is the difference, again please, between draintile and that perforated sock pipe they sell at Lowe's? <<
What you describe that they sell at Lowes sounds like just a flavor of draintile. Although they have lots of Lowes around here (it's may main "hardware store" and we have a company account there), I think what Lowes stocks is somewhat regional. For example, I'll bet that they sell many more insulation products in Canada than in the SE USA where I live. At Lowes they used to sell the black corrugated flexible pipe with the sock over it here, but I haven't seen it for a few years (in Lowes anyway).
Draintile is a construction industry term that is probably a hold over from the old days when foundation drains, etc were made out of sections of clay pipe about 2' long - made out of a material similar to tile - baked clay. Now adays common types of drain tile include the black flexible corrugated pipe that comes in 10' and 50 or 100' rolls and in perforated or unperforated and some with the sock, and also rigid PVC pipe that might come in different thicknesses (strengths) and maybe in white or green. Black rigid ABS pipe is available in some areas too. Of the perforated pipes, some have holes all around the circumference, and some have holes just on one side. If one sided, the holes go down. I think this is supposed to help the pipe from filling up as quickly as fines in the soil migrate with the water. That is also the purpose of the sock coverings - to prevent sand, etc from filling up the the pipe over time.
The rigid pipe is a superior product to the flex, but rigid is more expensive and harder to work with. Personally, I think more than adequate drainage systems can be installed using the flex just so that certain details are tended to. Also, I don't like to use flex pipe in installations that are shallower than a foot or so as they can crush if they do not have adequate soil cover. With rigid they system can be cleaned out with a drain auger, etc, whereas the flex really doesn't lend itself to this.
To reiterate a bit, one key point you need to take away from this whole thing is that not only are drain systems necessary to relieve hydraulic pressure in the soil, but it is very important that they exit to daylight (gravity drain out the end of the pipe) if at all possible.
Since it sounds like you're doing this yourself, here are some suggestions. When you dig up the outside to put your footer drain in, I would inspect outside of the block wall and re-parge if necessary and recoat with water/damp proofing. Then I would line the trench with fabric, lay two 4" perf., corrugated pipe running to daylight or a drywell with a pump going to daylight. Then completely fill it to within 1' of the top with stone. Starting with 2"-3" a the bottom and then smaller toward the top not getting any smaller than 3/4". Cover top stone with fabric and then soil, or if you prefer more decorative stone. When filling the trench with stone, some say to use rounded, pebbled stone (don't remember the "official" name) because it handles expansion/contraction from clay soil better.I did this type of project myself about a dozen years ago and the only thing I would do differently is to go all the way up with the stone on all the walls, I stopped about 2' down on two walls.
Edited 1/19/2008 11:18 am ET by bp21901
I'd like to add to install some kind of drain board on the exterior of the walls after coating them to protect the newly installed membrane from rocks, etc in the backfill.
Sounds good to me, except now I have two things I would have done differently.... :)
A quick question regarding drains, I agree wholeheartedly that they are necessary, but what about roots? I've dug around the edge of my house in spots for different reasons and found roots from mature trees that are a long way from the house (went 6'down and still lots of roots) Doesn't this imply that you should use a drain that you can auger out later, because roots will go where the water is. I only ask because someday I intend (hope?) to redo my basement (2' deep, bermed back 3-10' then full depth to 8"') and want to do it once only the right way.
There are ways you can put in cleanouts for any drain system.
RE. Stopping the water outside.
That is the ideal way, otherwise, invite it in, sub slab into a draintile system and run discharge to grade (walkout basement lots) or install a sump pump.
Both work. Sump pump depends upon electricity and I would rather depend upon gravity but sometimes the cost/benefit is not there to dig up all the way around the house and seal the foundation. If you can do it with grading, you are golden.
I have several stories of catastrophic failures with powered sumps when the power goes out in a storm. It is the least acceptable solution unless you also have a genrator.
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Why has no one mentioned Delta MS for foundation waterproofing?
http://www.deltams.com
Edited 1/19/2008 1:35 pm ET by s crough
Got any pricing?
This is a bit off topic but I have never seen a block foundation. I have only ever seen concrete foundations or pilings. Why/where/when would you use blocks? The way I picture them, they would be little better than setting your house on a strong seive.
It's done all the time.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Above grade? OK - but I am pretty sure that there are no block foundations around here. I suppose that I've never seen it up here because the frost heave would tear apart a block foundation wall. Do you get deep frost in your area? What's the advantage of a block wall if they are so difficult to waterproof?
>> What's the advantage of a block wall if they are so difficult to waterproof? <<
They are less expensive to build than concrete form construction. Let me go on the record to say that personally I don't like them.
Question for you though... When you see a basement in a home that is say 50 years old, what are the basement foundation walls made of?
Attached are some pics of block wall basements on new construction homes in Minnesota. Sorry about the file sizes - of you right click on the icons and choose "open in new window" they display better. These aren't my jobs, so I'm not the expert on what was going on in these situations. In the "combination drain" pic it looks like there is already some seepage going on. Unfortunately I didn't get any pics of exterior drainage systems.
Im not a fan of block walls either. They can be waterproofed but alot more difficulty than a poured wall.
I had seepage in my block basement walls. I bought 4' extensions for my downspouts and haven't seen a hint of a wet spot since.
The drain board picture, is that fiberglass? Does it serve two purposes? Insulating and drainage? We almost had to start insulating the exterior of our foundations last year, but code hasn't been changed yet. Woods favorite carpenter
Yes it is fiberglass and I do believe that it serves both as insulation and a drainage plane (drain board). I have no idea of what the intended method would have been to finish the pictured foundation - maybe either remove the extra fiberglass to just below grade, or cover it over with some kind of stucco finish I guess. Again - that is not my job site.
Sorry I missed that part "not my job site" in your post.
Woods favorite carpenter
Yea, it was in Minnesota - you can tell a real building geek when someone (me) goes on vacation to visit relatives 1/2 way across the nation and wants to run around to construction sites to see "how they do it here". :-)
You're not the onle geek.
I went to Tennessee twice last year on "vacation" and worked 12 hours everyday I was there. Had a blast doing it in a lighter snow load location. Woods favorite carpenter
Umm..... wet fibreglass as insulation. It seems to me that the fibreglass panels are a one hit wonder for drainage membrane. Not many "R"s avaible to prevent BTU escapees from wandering off in the moving stream of water.
The very oldest houses here are about 50 years old. This is a company town and it was literally carved out of the forest starting in the early 50s. All houses (except for one with preserved wood foundation) are on either concrete wall foundations or log piles driven to about 20' depth.
And, DanH, you are right about concrete cracking. No matter the material, the damp/water proofing the drainage are the most important things.
Edited 1/20/2008 8:45 pm ET by mguizzo
Edited 1/20/2008 8:46 pm ET by mguizzo
Check my profile -- southern MN -- frost level is 3.5 feet. And virtually all foundations are block.Poured concrete isn't that much more watertight -- concrete always cracks.Of course around here it's code that the foundation MUST have a footing drain.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
you oviosly have not watched holmes program. block walls are less expensive, easier to build, with proper drainage, very waterproof. when put on proper footers you don't have to worry about frost heave. the are also manufactored, thereby much more consistent with psi.
No.
But not worrying about leaks... Priceless!!!!!!!!!!!!
IMHO If you are doing new construction and not using this membrane in poorly drained soils you are working in the past. In fact any drainage issue is probably solved by by relieving hydrostatic pressure.
>> In fact any drainage issue is probably solved by by relieving hydrostatic pressure. <<
Agreed. That is why I suggested some kind of drain board in a previous post above - which is basically what the product you are suggesting is. Granted that product is unique in that it is also a membrane - that's why it looks interesting. Potentially doing the whole foundation waterproofing process in one step without a lot of messy coatings. Seems like there would have to be some kind of sealant that goes along with it . OTOH, any professional builder knows though that he must deliver value as well as performance if he wants to stay in business.
Just for everybody's entertainment - my house is not old. It's still under construction. My contractor said he was going to skip putting in a French drain in order to save me some money!! He said it wouldn't leak because he was going to fill the cinder block cells with cement. Then he sealed the outside walls with something from Sherwin Williams. For all I know it was Sherwin Wms latex kindergarten finger paint. So now my walls leak and my slab leaks. And my slab is concave and looks like a wading pool every time it rains. It makes me want to throw up. Somebody said it sounded like I'm fixing the leak myself. No I'm not. Just trying to get my ducks lined up. Sure wish I'd posted these questions a year ago.
Edited 1/19/2008 11:04 pm ET by bayouelton
Edited 1/19/2008 11:05 pm ET by bayouelton
I feel your pain. I've had a leaky basement. Thankfully, not now, though.Your situation wouldn't get past the building insp. here. The GC that built our current house tried to do something similar because the excavation contractor had barely dug out enough to fit the basement in. Not enough to install the drains. He completely backfilled before I was able to get in touch w/ the inspector. Fortunately for us, the inspector made him re-excavate the basement walls & do it correctly.When you do install the footing drains, I suggest you run some angled pipe to the surface at the high point of the drain lines. One facing the down slope direction each way to use as a cleanout. Using the filtration fabric they how now will help keep the drains from silting up as badly as they did in the past, but there's nothing like having a cleanout already installed that allows you to make sure everything is running freely.One other idea to consider. There are membranes made that attach to the basement walls outside of the waterproofing. The material has a drain space that allows any water that would be building up some hydraulic pressure against the basement walls to run thru the drain space right down to the drain tiles at the bottom. Sorry, I don't know any of the trade names to give you. Somebody here might be able to help. Come to think of it, in one of Piffin's blogs, I think he used something like that. Do a search for the thread "Jack that house John Henry". I think that's the title he used. You'll find a nice picture blog of the steps that he used. It's a good reference even if the conditions you have are different.Actually, I still have his blog bookmarked. Here's the link. Hope it works. http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=85802.0Good luck!
attached is a good shot from another thread ( search for cannonbal house) that shows the coating sprayed on, the gravel surronding the drain at footer, and the drainage mat ( similar to the Delta linked in this thread) attached to the wall before backfill
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Paul:
Is that you on the left in the pic?
I was manning the camera. You can see my shadow silouette on the left on the ground!On that wall is one of the girls who was on the waterproofing crew - an all girl crew. They came to the island, patched the tie holes, sprayed the coating, then attached the drainage mat all in about 4-5 hours.The one in charge says - "Since the ferry doesn't leave for 2-3 hours yet, do you mind if we keep busy?"They popped off the foam at that brickledge formed in, broke wall ties the rest of the way around, and cleaned things up, all because she was going to have to charge me for the full day anyhow...
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I am sorry to hear how bad a situation you have there. Wish we had the information needed to comment accurately from the first post.
It is obvious your contractor is an ignorant hack on at least this point.Concrete is not water proof unless specifically designed formed and placed so as to be so, a very rare circumstance.Then after assuming that it would be waterproof, he failed in providing the most important part of a basement wall design- providing an egress path for the water that accumulates in the soils.This is not entertaining! It makes those of us who work hard to provide high quality products and homes want to throttle and hang hacks like this. He should be required to dig up the perimeter, wash the walls down, install a proper drainage system, seal the walls, and then backfill with gravel and fabric to keep siltation out of the drains - at his own expense due to his negligence having caused this. Then feed him to the sharks or gators
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A problem with using a spray-on membrance or peel-and-stick is that your walls have already been backfilled and gotten dirty. Those products workk better on clean walls. The dimples in the plastic membranes (like the Delta product that was linked) make the membrane stand off from the wall so that any water that might get behind falls down to the footing drain instead of being forced with hydrostatic pressure through the wall. The membrane is very tough, plus the seams should be overlapped and caulked. Since it is hung from the top edge, you don't have to worry about it not adhering to the wall. It's also very clean and easy to use compared to tarry and rubbery membranes, and when i did mine, the price was quite advantageous, plus no special equipment is needed to install it. (Some spray membrane systems are proprietary.)I had a basement surrounded by clay that routinely filled with water whenever it rained and this material plus a footing drain solved my problem. I also used it on new construction on a treated wood basement with the corrugated/socked drainage hose - also with excellent results. I installed it myself in a couple hours - honestly.There are also foam-board systems that incorporate a drainage mat and-or chanells cut into the foam to provide a route for water to reach the footing drain, but i wasn't able to find the material in my rural area and it would have been far too bulky/expensive to ship. I ordered the plastic Delta-type membrane and it came by UPS within a week in a roll i could easily pick up and carry. Both the Journal of Light Construction and Fine Homebuilding magazines have done articles on basement waterproofing using all these materials.
"I had a basement surrounded by clay that routinely filled with water whenever it rained and this material plus a footing drain solved my problem."
Thanks, splintergroupie, for the testimonial about the Delta membrane. I have a lot of clay in my soil, too, so maybe that's exactly what I need.
It is part of it.The delta type dimpled mat provides a channel for water to run vertically down the face of the wall. You still needd the drain to lead it off and away
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Another little tip uses Bentonite, a type of expanding clay used as a sealant around well heads. It comes in bags, ready to pour. The bentonite clay is pretty inexpensive. I got some at a feed store.
Lay a generous amount of the dry clay along the seam between your footing and your block wall, which is a common place for water to infiltrate. Allow the membrane to fall over it in a gentle curve and over the footing edge. When you backfill, the membrane pushes against the dry clay and contains it. As the clay gets damp, it swells but is constrained by the membrane and the backfill, thereby forming a watertight seal at that joint.
I'm not sure if anyone else does that, but i read about sealing pond bottoms with clay before laying a liner, as insurance in case the liner leaked. For the price, it's really cheap insurance here, too.
The proper installation of your filter fabric is really important with such fine particles of soil as you have. If you're cheap like i am, you use old carpeting for the filter material. <G>
View Image
A couple important things about backfilling the membrane is to be careful the membrane doesn't get filled from behind with soil particles - terminate the openings at the top. The other is that i had some pulling of the dimple material downward as the backfill settled more. I eliminated this problem the next time by using slip sheets of old paneling when backfilling. Some dimple fabric has a filter material on the backfill side to keep the soil away from the dimples.
"my house is not old. It's still under construction. My contractor said he was going to skip putting in a French drain in order to save me some money!! He said it wouldn't leak because he was going to fill the cinder block cells with cement. Then he sealed the outside walls with something from Sherwin Williams." Of course it is much more expensive to fill cells with concrete than to apply water proofing. What I would recommend is get a backhoe in and excavate the perimeter and trench it to day light, clean the exterior of the block and the block to footing intersection. apply fibered asphalt foundation coating to this with a cheap broom (not a foundation brush) Cover the tar with Ameridrain dimpled foundation mats. Install 4" black ABS plastic drain pipe (also called drain tile) as low as possible if it has holes they point down so the water rises into the holes from below, if slotted then no matter, cover this with filter fabric or buy the slotted tile that comes with a filter fabric sock pre-installed. Make sure the pipe drains to day light of to a sump pump. Don't cross your sub-slab drain or your gutter drains into this system but do run a riser to grade at the uphill end of the house so you can stick a leaf blower in one end and verify that the line is not crushed by feeling a draft at the daylight end. Now back fill the bottom 12" at least with clean washed stone and then to the surface with good fill dirt. slope the surface fill to direct rain water at least four feet and preferably as far as possible away from the house. Question everything else your builder has told you. Esp when he offers to do something out of ordinary to save money or promotes something as "new." ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Just one product that will work but not the only way there are also spray on membranes, roll on and other sheet membranes (Peel and stick products)
Some are water based and can applied directly to green concrete or a foundation that is damp others need to be applied on dry surface only or need a primer coat (usually a water based damp proofer).Any product will work as long as it is designed as a foundation water proofing system but you must follow the manufacturers instructions. Many products rely to much on less then real work conditions to be completely effective. For example it is hard in the north east to get a block foundation completely dry and clean enough on a repair job it meet the conditions the manufactures recommend for application of their products so read all the requirements before choosing one system over another.
You are correct about surface prep and manufacturer specs. but nothing a pressure washer or sandblaster can't fix.
Re. Power failures and sump pumps.
Yep, Piffin, I have seen and cleaned up flooded basements when the sump pumps failed either due to mechanical failure or power failure. Now they have the battery backup systems that might buy a little time, but I have never tested how long one would keep the water at bay. Some people have emergency automatic generators, others run extension cords from theirs, but it is still better to work with gravity and pipe the discharge to grade if at all possible.
I give clients lots of options and prices and let them pick their own system based on the risk that they are willing to accept vs. the $$$$ they invest.
Jeff in PA
"I give clients lots of options and prices and let them pick their own system "That's a bout all we can do, but the teacher can only teach - it is up to the student to do the learning, listening, and pass the test.One place here had owners who figured they could save on the lectricity bill by having it turned off all winter long while they were gone. It's about $15/month even if you use less than the minimum charge 100 KWH.So the sump pump didn't pump and the water collected two feet deep in the cellar, the furnace, the junk stored there....and hydrostatic pressure and water vapours lifted sheet vinyl in a kitchen and bathroom, and destroyed an antique inlaid wood floor in the dining room. I'm guessing there was other I don't know about...I turned the job down because the owners were twits.
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