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The FHB Podcast team weighs in on Building Science career questions.
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"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
joe.. nice .. can we see a picture of the entry door.. it looks like you trimmed it to match the cabinetry
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
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Joe
Kitchen looks good, are the doors stick and cope or are they miter, they appear miter but not sure.
I was with you all the way on the math thing, and damn I was a math major.
Anyhow looks great
Doug
Joe
Are those them Mills Pride cabinets from HD that I've heard so much about?
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Barry E
Barry,
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Doug,
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crown and countertops will WOW it.
Really nice layout.
Math?
suck or blow, what's the difference? Just balance the equation.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Joe, what are the units on either side of the oven opening. The drawer faces appear different then the uppers. Are they refridgerators?
HT
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Looks Great Joe! Nice installation. Do take a shot after the tops are on. Granite no doubt? Nice to have these kind of jobs in the winter.Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Joe,
Great job. Nice color too. You also made a perfect match with the sample piece for Nancy's new bar, I told you she would like the lighter one ;-)
Also the other sample piece you gave me, she loved the bead you put in it. She wants to redesign the whole Bar now and she wants it finished by friday ;-)
Joe Carola
Very nice work, Joe. What is the counter top material on the island?
Looks great, Joe.
Bob,
Dave,
Jim
John,
Don
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Well, I always try to install cabinetry before finished floor, to reduce the chance of damaging the flooring, but folks do it either way out here in the Great Northwet.
Jim,
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joe, looking good.... and Merry Christmas to you and yours..
.. in pic.#04, what's going to get hung on the wall to the left over teh sink ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
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beauty Joe- interesting detail on those pilasters- I've not seen that before
I like it alot(said in Jim Carrey voice)
happy happy & all that...
gb
Gary,
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geez- you couldn't drag a needle out of sgian's bum with a tractor, could ya? what do you expect from someone who uses as his moniker a type of scottish dagger (for those who didn't already know- that's what a "sgian dubh" is)
btw- ").(" ROTFLMAO!
m
A Scottish dagger? I thought it meant sheep poker.
Nice emoticon, btw. Me, with halo>>> 0;-)
Siggy, interesting observations, but like Joe says, the "design" trend is to busy it up.
I can't say that I ever saw cabinet doors with the rails different widths, why the big deal? Paneling and 'tect details yes, but cabinet doors?
I was thinking of posting a couple pics of this nightmare I am working on, but I wouldn't do that to you. Between the homeowner demands and design restrictions, combined with unloved material fabricated by a moron, you would be spitting that stuff you call beer all over your keyboard.
Qtrmeg- Go ahead and tease the crowds then leave 'em wanting.
"I was thinking of posting...but wouldn't do that to you".
Villain!...sitting in his nowhereland.
Maybe I will so we can play let's find the faults, live and learn, right?
It will be a while tho, this one won't be pic ready for some time.
I don't consider myself experienced enough to conduct the fault finding missions not to say I would if I were.
The pic's I was thinking of were the before instead of after with the game plan described.
Speaking of a game plan, here's one. If you post a pic of the before shot and a desired to-be scenario, I'll post one of my cottage-in-the-raw that I took on as a teeth cutting introduction to renovation that is guaranteed to provide you with two Roars and a dogbone for entertainment value....sitting in his nowhereland.
FYI, find all the fault you want with me, I am a work in progress and am all ears. I'd rather have feedback than wow pretty, and who cares where it comes from. There is no downside, if I could have done something better I improve, if I can explain the why of something you understand where I was coming from.
The thing with Siggy and Joe is they are both at the top of their fields, there was an observation with an added dash of leg pulling, and I think Joe got it. Just a conversation about a state of mind thing, detail questions discussed between pros.
I like your idea of before/why/after threads, I remember a few like that. The closest that comes to mind now is Gene Davis (?) is working out some house details, but in multiple threads. I guess after 7000 posts we would know how one person built a house.
I have a clueless client wants "something" situation that would make a good one. He bought the new house by the sq ft, and doesn't know what he is missing. I've passed on this one three times, but it might be interesting to see what can be done. I'll call him when I have a chance.
Maybe you could start a thread on why you think your thoughts have no value.
Yes, even cabinet doors Qtrmeg, for the same reason that pictures are mounted in frames with the mat cut wider at the bottom than at the sides and top-- for visual balance. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.
Looks nice. What are you cutting your mitres with? Are you using a Lion trimmer or right off the machine?
Dave,
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Ditto gunner's reply. What's happened to you Joe? You used to be fun to have around.
That's the age old architect dilemma. Design for the sake of design without regard to the client?
I didn't look that close at the pictures but most people aren't trained in classical architecture or furniture making. You're lucky if you get a picture to work from.
I always wondered what sgian dubh meant. Can anyone elaborate on the meaning.Tom
Joe, your physical work and results, as ever, are faultless. But all those breaks backwards and forwards from the wall is a complete grunge of angles and returns, and the cornice, in particular, gives me eye-ache. There is no design integrity or theme here to which a designer could argue that they have a reasoned design statement. It's just a mess of pseudo-Georgian---whatever, and overblown too.
Even the bottom rails in the doors are the same width as the top rails which makes them (the doors) look imbalanced and out of proportion. It makes me giddy just to look at it all. Just because it's complex, it doesn't mean it's attractive, which it isn't, and do note, that's not a comment on my part on your abililty and technical skill.
Okay. Shoot me down, but you already know, as a fat mouthed furniture designer myself, I'm partial to speaking my mind. I could have just ignored this thread, and perhaps I should have, ha, ha. Go ahead and crucify me. I'll just lie down here and await the storm. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.
Sgian,
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Edited 12/25/2002 12:41:32 PM ET by Joe Fusco
Geez Joe that was a much more thought out and intelegent reply then I would have come up with. And very truthful. I love the work Merry Christmas.
You're quite correct, Joe. Design and build to suit what the client wants, and walk away with the compliment ringing in your ears that starts in written form as, "Pay to the order of----." I've done exactly the same with more than enough jobs over the years, and I'll continue to do them as required.
It's a job that looks extremely well executed, which I said earlier, and as I'd expect from you. Very busy backward and forward breaks, and complex crowning roof, pediment, or cornice lines are one of my least favourite design motif's and rationales-- but I'll build anything to order, as long as I'm able to build it, and can get that all important payment at the end.
I don't consider that kitchen cabinetry is necessarily rooted in the classical furniture design tradition-- far from it in fact. I think end results can sometimes look rather a pastiche of historical styles, which is something else. Slainte. Some stuff I've made.
Joe,
The kitchen, although different in overall appearance than your run-of- the-mill layout might be, is nonetheless visually stimulating and handsome. I don't personally feel that it needs defensive explanations. The term "extra-ordinary" comes to mind because it certainly is not ordinary.
Many freestanding pieces of furniture are adorned with crown molding that never comes to touch the ceiling. Is that a problem? Not in my opinion. It can, in fact, add a sense of spatial drama and I think it does in this case.
I know from personal experience that designing a kitchen can be very challenging as it is one of those rooms inherently filled with cabinets where form must yield to function………not to mention catering to the client's sense of the desirable and/or frequently limited resources. This kitchen is indeed different, but I don't see anything "wrong". I see success.
Oh yeah………….nice workmanship.
I usually do widen the bottom rail of cabinets, as well as other structural members, to lend a sense of visual "grounding", but that doesn't mean that failing to do so is necessarily a mistake in all instances.
Bottom line…………..I like it.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Goldhiller,
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Widening the bottom rail? Really? Could someone talk more about that? Sgian? Goldhiller? Anyone? Makes a lot of sense. Is there a rule of thumb ratio for porportions? Say, 1.25:1 or something? I've never heard this before. Do tell, please.
Look down at the bottom door of a (kitchen?) cabinet, Jim, and mentally draw lines from your standing (or sitting) eye level to the various horizontal lines formed by the rails whether there just be a top and bottom rail, or intermediate rails, as you might find in tall doors, such as entrance doors-- or draw it out on paper at a generous scale to see what I'm on about. The top rail looks fatter than the bottom rail in the example I chose, and the door, overall, looks top heavy. Widen the bottom rail, and you add visual weight to it giving a more balanced appearance.
Similarly with upper cabinet doors too, although the site line to the bottom rail (from a standing position) is almost horizontal-- but you look up to the top rail which may be 8' or so above the ground. I don't use mathematical formulae as such, but if your stiles and top rail are, let's just say, 1-3/4" wide, then most furniture makers would expect to make the bottom rails at least 2" to 2-1/8" wide.
Entasis is the appearance of two close vertical parallel lines to bow in to each other as viewed from a distance, so to overcome this phenomenom, most columns are carefully calculated so that the sides are actually manufactured to physically curve away from each other. The eye is fooled into thinking that the two 'vertical' lines are straight and parallel. Some column makers go overboard and deliberately emphasise the curve resulting in a deformed and bandy looking bottom heavy column.
You can make a heavy table top look light and slim by working a chamfer on the underside so that only a narrow edge shows, unless you get down and view the edge from straight on. You can make it 'look' heavier by working a top chamfer. Slainte. Some stuff I've made.
Jim , Haven't you done that ? I have on some but most of mine have been all about the same size . I think that looks better but what do I know? I would bet that Joe has made Cabinets with a wider bottom frame . For the most part I think that if you can notice the differance easily that it is too much.
Joe , I'm still looking for a No.8 ,If you still want one. Heck even if you don't I'am looking for another.
Don,
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Edited 12/26/2002 9:27:05 PM ET by Joe Fusco
Joe,
Wonderful work Joe, And for the record I like the design. I'm curious as to exactly what finish process you used. Your color and tone came out very even without appearing to obscure the grain. Again really nice work.
Mark
professor,
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Joe - didn't mean to exclude you (or anyone else) from the wider rail question, sorry.
Hey, did you just say you used a solvent based stain, then two hours later sprayed water borne sanding sealer over it? Man, I gotta look into that brand stain. I've had to wait days for solvent based stains/oils to dry before using waterborne over them. I haven't used Mahogony a lot, but what I have used IS real porous, almost like flat sawn Red Oak.
You crank the heat to accelerate drying times?
Jim,
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Jim,
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Joe,
You mentioned that the wood you used for the kitchen was mahogany. Have you had sucess with this stain with hard to stain woods such as cherry and maple? You did say that the stain is a dye base rather than pigment base as most commercial stains are. I have used dye stains but usually have to mix them myself. If the M-L Cambell Product is sucessful on the woods I mentioned then that would save a lot of time as well as make it easier to duplicate a finish down the road. Let me know if it has worked for you on these woods. Thanks
Mark
Professor,
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Joe,
Pics look great. I've got a Queen Anne highboy and matching lowboy close to being ready for finish. These pieces are done in curly cherry which as you know can be a bear to stain without blotching. I think I'll get some of the M-L cambell product and try it on some scrap. Then finish the pieces with it when I get the color right. Should cut the finishing time down. I really appreciate you taking the time to answer me and to post the pics. Thanks a bunch.
Mark
Joe: I somehow missed this thread until this morning. Your kitchen cabinet job is absolutely stunning in layout, workmanship. .. and the finish.
I would consider you at the top of your profession.
One thing that I have noticed about your work Joe..is that the closer you get to it..the better it looks. I would love to look at your work in person as I know I would be inching closer and just shaking my head the closer I get.
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Edited 12/28/2002 10:04:47 AM ET by Joe Fusco
Joe
I just want to say that I'm glad to see you posting again. I for one missed hearing from you. It was a bit vacant while you were away. I admire all your work, the kitchen looks beautiful to me too.
Most of my custom cabs are full flush inset doors with a heavier bottom rail as well. Perspective as Sgian explained is the reason. I don't know that it would work well with mitred corner doors. I've never done thoise.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piffin,
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All,
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Edited 12/28/2002 2:59:44 PM ET by Joe Fusco
You are right. Very few cabs off the rack have the heavier bottom rail. That's why I said in my "custom" cabs. That's one of the advantages of custom work for the customer. He can get upgrades over the run of the mill stock stuff.
My photos of that job got lost in the system wipeout last spring or summer. I might have one in my 35mm box to scan next time I get them out. The Dykes catalouge has a very similar molding.
Since then, I've learned to really watch for how trhe light plays on trims. For instance, with your kitchen and the latest shots you posted, the bump out for the (I'm assuming) double oven at the end wall gets out under the recessed light and shadows fall on the crown. In all the rest of the room they highlight the trims realy good.
One of the nice things about older architectural trims was the crisp corners and opposing reflective surfaces to create contrasts of light and shadow to detail it. Modern millwork has flattened profiles to save materials and eased edges because a duller blade can be run longer before changing it. Deeper profiles and sharp edges take sharp blades and thicker stock but it really shows in the final product.
I wasn't criticising your design, BTW, just commenting on things brought up in the thread.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piffin,
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Like Sgian, I must report that I use no formula but rather use my eye to tell me what are the "right" proportions for the members of a cabinet or piece of furniture. Oh, but were it that simple…..like using the golden rectangle approach.
Sgian's example of the proportions of the rails on an entry door is a good one as it pertains to general appearance and style. Make that bottom rail and center rail the same width as the top rail and you've just drastically altered the appearance of the door and its visual balance/character. The same holds true with all the members of any cabinet, piece of furniture, or architectural element. The slightest change in the curvature of a cabriole leg, for instance, and you've just created a wholly different critter. This balance of dimensions is not really something that can be taught, but must be garnered from becoming visually sensitive coupled with experience; much of that can be costly and painful. In my world, 90% of learning has been a negative experience. I think this probably holds true for the most of us.
I guess my approach to designing and creating more resembles that of an old world craftsman than a product of the industrial revolution. Faster does not necessarily equal better in my mind. I, personally, never use a cad program to design furniture or cabinets. I start with a general mental snapshot of what I think I'm aiming for and the process eventually proceeds to paper drawings (sometimes on a napkin at the coffee shop) and then to the drawing board. This is where the slightest change of dimension or line really begins to hit you dead in the eye if you're paying attention. But this isn't the end of it all because even a 3D rendition is usually still quite different than its 3D reality. Frequently, I'm tweaking the dimensions or profiles of things as the construction is under way in order to make it more pleasing to the eye……well, my eye anyway.
Much of what I've learned in regards to this all has come from countless hours of looking at furniture or architectural elements or pictures of the same and determining just what it was about the "successful" ones that made them successful. As in many other arenas, the devil is in the details.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
>>>>" the devil is in the details. "
There is a world of truth in all that you had to say here.
I once did a custom detailed seven inch cove/crown in a piano room. I wasn't happy with the way it "felt" so I temp tacked up a piece and sent a picture to the interior designer. He replied, "Simple, just change the angle to the wall a little bit"
Sure enough, by flattening it to the ceiling and increasing the angle to the wall by about seven degrees, thew way it reflected light into the room hi-lighted everything about it. the difference was like between the wallflower at a dance and the long-legged belle that all the guys wanted to dance with. Both dressed the same but one displayed herself differently. Small detail - big difference.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Edited 12/28/2002 1:26:55 PM ET by piffin
Okay, here's some more spiel from my point of view on these matters of "correct" dimensions. Are you ready? Here it comes…………………it depends. How's that for profound thinking?
It depends upon what one's objective is. What will be required for a successful outcome will be contingent on the desired style involved. "Oriental austere" will require different dimensions/balance/character than "country warmth/inviting" which will require something different than "classical/traditional formal" style, which would require something totally different again from an attempt at "neo-modern".
In short…………it depends. In short………….your eye, coupled to your brain, will tell you if you are sensitive to such things and are willingly to put in the time and effort to achieve an ideal………as best the situation will allow. Be prepared to fail/fall short of an ideal, to some degree, from time to time (all too often), after hours (too frequently days) of contemplation and attempts……or you'd best not even begin to try.
I don't bat 1000, I don't know anyone who does (despite what they might think) and I haven't ever seen anyone that does. Like everything else in life, we do the best we can and hope to have a decent percentage of successes. Then others can use our best as a stepping stone and guide in their own attempts.
The more I look at the general appearance and details of Joe's kitchen, the more I like it. It's definitely a success in my book……..and we haven't even seen those countertops yet.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
GoldHiller,
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Joe , nice job . Could you post a close up of the medaloins on the end of the island. Did you carve them?
Ditto on the "nice kitchen." A related question:
Was the tile done and the cabinets set on them or were the cabinets in first and the tile run up to them. I am puting my cabinets in first to save on the ceramic tile bill. Is this an acceptable way to cut costs, or am I going to run into probems down stream.
Joe, everyone blows a math problem once in a while.......Nice cabentry........
Nice. Very nice. How much would you charge, if you are comfortable talking price, for a job like this?
joe, i met sgian at duhammels...... let me assure you he's just as difficult in person ...
as i bet you are too..... most of the interesting guys and gals are , no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore