My latest lesson is going to cost me. 1st thing I did wrong was give an estimate over the phone, not a detailed printed form. Told daughter (an adult, her mom will be moving in w/ her at some point is paying for work to be done). Gave a price for framing a 4′ x 14′ closet – said amount was for labor & cedar lining, nothingelse. Daughter had said not to worry about door because they were undecided what they wanted, thus I didn’t include in price of door in estimate.
Ended up I had to intall 2 lights & light switch. Then the mother was in a hurry to get a door on. Said I had no time to make a door, so if she wanted one would have to buy one. Also, closet had to have cedar on floor also; had to nail 2×4 sleepers on concrete floor (basement), put down cdx plywood, then cedar lining.
Send bill, they wait for 3 weeks, then call and says she’s upset about the bill being higher than estimate. Tried to explain, but that was a waste. She complained about spending $40 for plywood for floor. Said her husband bulit one by putting 2×4 12″ oc & then put cedar on ( resisted the urge to suggest he should have built it). Also complained that the closet door from my supplier cost $80. Said could get one for $30 at Home Depot. Couldn’t understand that she would have spent more paying me to drive an hour one way to go get the thing.
She said she would pay me 1/3 more than the estimate she was given. Please berate me about how much I screwed up & how to do better next time. When sent bill also sent detailed estimate to put roof over their deck. They also want the rest of the basement finished off at some point. Think I’ll be “busy”. Did also mention this is a “friend”? Please educate me guys.
Replies
First lesson -
You make improper use of verb tenses. "She WAS a friend" - not - "She IS a friend"
never do work with or for friends. if their is a friendship involved, put it in a can while the pro stuff happens.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
let's have a little fun with this one ...
what do U think ya did wrong?
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
No detailed estimate, no written contract, & no change work order forms.
Not one thing that was done is her fault. It's all on your dime. Eat it and learn.
Wow. Nothing in writing. No markup on materials. Probably minimum wage for labor.
You sleeping with her?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
He should be....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Ugh! That's nasty. To add insult to injury, she left a message on my cell phone number saying she couldn't call me because her daughter didn't have long distance service (buy a phone card?), so our "discussion" was on my dime.
Thanks Piffin. Also, I charged no mark up on materials, only my cost.
I'm going to take the opposing view. I don't think you did anything wrong. I think the wrongdoing is on the other side of this situation. I think it's entirely reasonable to expect friends to act like friends. This person is obviously not a friend. 'Complained' this, 'couldn't understand' that, this isn't the way friends behave. This person sounds to me like a nasty person.
There's a moral to this story, obviously. I'm sure you've already realised what it is
John
It doesn't matter who did wrong. Piffin is absolutely right. If you're going to work for friends, then you're going to end up getting stuck no matter what. And if it was the gal who was writing here about what she should do, she should be told the same thing about hiring friends. If you want someone you can complain about afterwards, don't hire a friend. No matter how good a job you do, it seems like nobody is ever happy when friends work together. Best to never put yourself in that position unless you want to do the job for free, and even then there's usually a problem.
SHG
I'm not clear about how the extra work became necessary... the door, the floor, the lights. Did they come in part way thru and request these extras? If so, the extra bill should be easy to justify. Or, did you say those would be no big deal, just a few minutes extra here and there, and later find that you underestimated and it added up to a lot more of your time than you thought?
Anyway, add up the lost/unpaid dollars. Your experience sounds about equal to two semesters of college level coursework in business. If that would cost more than the amount you didn't get paid, then you came out ahead.
A neighbor who lives two houses up from me has his own buisiness renting and selling shoes and coloring them for weddings and the like. Other neighbor across the street is a mid sized caterer complete with a hall. I'm sole proprieter of my carpentry-plastering business. We're all sitting around one night having drinks telling war stories and the shoe guys says the two "f's" that'll break a business in half faster than anything. What are they?...
Friends and free?
Maverick got it. If you work for friends and family you might just as well be working for free. So, F+F=F=Heartache. Try and avoid them difficult as it is. Just tell them you're too busy even if you're not.
If I couldn't work with friends or family I'd have to take a good long look in the mirror.
Same here. I really enjoy working with friends...now aquaintances, or friends of friends could be different, but, friends don't screw each other over, or they're not friends<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
seems that my latest and many past customers become friends, then, more like family..we do social events, help out in time of need...kinda odd, but I like it.
Many long term relationships, long after the work is done..it's cool shooting pool in a room I built, and on a pool table I rebuilt and refelted...with a new buddy, who paid me well, never complained, and helped me move my shop..when I moved.
I think carps problem was in his lack of 'well, it's gonna cost THIS much more for the added stuff, ma'am'...before he did it.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Good to hear some alternative views, to listen to some of the earlier posters I was starting to think that 'friend' meant something different in the States to what it does here in the UK.
John
Yeppers. I find it much more satisfying to please a friend than someone I don't know...and there's nothing more satisfying than getting a beer out of a fridge in a kitchen I built years ago for a buddy<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
In response to the talk about friends and family. Sure, we all have or hear horor stories about getting screwed. I'd have to agree with Blodgett and others. Are we only supposed to work for our enemies?
I have made the common mistakes in the past of trying to be everyone's friend when it came to work. Doesn't happen!!
I've always felt if I did my job correctly, if they weren't my friend when I started, then they will be when I'm done! I realize this is in a perfect environment where noone gets taken, but hey, can't we at least have somethin to shoot for!!
For the guys who protest against working for friends & family, come to my town of 800 people, with nearby towns of similar size, with the school district made up of three towns, become involved in the community and school, live here for a year, and try to make a living working only for people you don't know.
It couldn't happen. Small town America. Everybody knows everybody. I've done at least some kind of work for half of my fellow fire department members or their families. To me, the small town helps keep people honest. My best customer with my favorite job so far (a farmhouse remodel) works at the local bank. We both knew going in if she wasn't happy, the whole town would know!
Well, so far I'm on my third job resulting from her referral. ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
Quality, Craftsmanship, Detail
I don't object to working for friends or family. I just think terms have to be spelled out more explicitly. Like a lot of us here I have close friends who were once referred to me by past customers.
Jobs always start off with "I know you will take care of me" then end up with I "thought you were giving me a deal". I make it clear there are no deals to be had. I treat my business as if I was an employee and billing is done by some other entity. After I make a paycheck the business has to make money too.
A couple of friends recently over a few beers said I am expensive compared to other guys in the area. I agreed and said I would'nt be offended if they hired someone else. Both of them have projects waiting for me
If you want to enlist my business to address your project you will be treated the same as anyone else, in that you will get great service and I wont get a call-back. When business is concluded we can all kick back together
I do a lot of work for family, friends, and (gasp), even fellow church members. A good number (maybe even a majority) of these have been handshake deals.
Can't say there have never been any problems, but I can say there haven't been more than my "other" customers.
My business would be very different than it is, if I excluded these groups. I can't imagine business without them. ( I hope most of them feel the same way)
Edit: I meant this to be a reply to "all" sorry mav
John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Edited 9/26/2004 2:14 pm ET by Svenny
A couple of friends recently over a few beers said I am expensive compared to other guys in the area. I agreed and said I would'nt be offended if they hired someone else. Both of them have projects waiting for me
That's a great line. It goes right to the heart of the problem, and forces them to make their choice up front or live with the consequences.
SHG
I'll backpeddle a bit here and say that I too have worked and do work for many friends. I don't have any family in the area so I don't deal with that. The friends who are willing to pay are the one's you guys are all talking about...of course. There's nothing better than that. Helping others in need and doing charity work with one's skills is what it's all about, and what will make a difference in this world. It's the friends , aquaintences and family who usurp your relationship and always expect a "break" in the cost of things when you know they well can afford it... that my neighbor was talking about. I certainly have run into it. From time to time...of course, a break for friends and others is fine. I do it quite often. But many is the time I have heard the stories about the inlaw, or the old high school buddy who are downright parasites. It's hard to say it, but the word 'no' can be a very positive thing indeed.
Friends and family. There is no better time for a contract then working for them.
It is absolutely his fault for not spelling out the terms ahead of time. He is the guy running a business in her house.