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I have been told by several painting contractors that since the manufacturers have removed lead from their oil based paints that most higher end latex paints are now actually better.
Is this true? Or is it true only under certain conditions?
Brian Ewing
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I just got my FHB last night, there is an article on this topic. You mystic, you!
For me, trim still gets oil. Interior walls can be latex. Exterior, on the house body, I'm still an oil fan, though it seems there are compelling reasons to be on both sides of the fence. Check out the article if you can.
*I have been using MOORE-GLO Latex ext. trim paint on boats for years with better results than marine paints. (I use it on my houses too.)
*I think you can make a case for oil on interior walls IF you are confident that you won't be repainting "just for a change" in the near future. That interior oil finish can stay looking great a very long time.Rich Beckman
*Brewskie, once many years ago I painted an apartment for an elderly couple in NYC. The husband had immigrated from Germany in the 30s fleeing the Nazi's(socialist I think). Anyway he had paid his bills painting long before Latex was an option. The combination of cigarretes and cleaning up with gasoline and turpintine had given him emphasyma(sic), heart disease, skin cancer, a shorter life span and a quality of life no one would care for. Since then I am real careful about the paint I use. Its not that I won't use oil base paints I simply think twice and ask can this be done simpler. Its not just the paint, its all the nonsense that goes into
*I always take into consideration what is being painted and what environmient the paint will be subjected to. For interior trim and doors, I like the soft glo of a good satin alkyd paint. Latex just can't give that finish I always look for. Exterior wood and weatherboards, including Hardiplank, get a high quality acrylic latex paint. If it's rework on the exterior and oil paint, is not chiped or flaking, then I recommend another coat of oil. I always go for latex on the walls. For exterior stain I still go against the grain and recommend alkyd solid stain.
*We still use oil on trim work, it levels better and look great. Another option is waterbourne acrylics. Muralo makes the best that I have used.They call it their Ultra lineThis paint goes on smooth, levels great,sticks to anything with a very light sanding,(yes, even over oil based paint without a primer). It is low if any odor and cleans up with soap and water. The flat(Muralo Ultra) is scrubale, not just washable but scrubable. When brushing it does set up quickly, so don't brush back into what you've already laid down. Dave
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Brewski- A lot of people find latex an easier paint to work with. Dries quickly, cleans up easily, etc. etc. Even if the alkyd gives a harder, more durable finish, is it really so important in a residential application where walls are generally subject to less wear and tear than in an industrial or commercial setting.
LCP
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Hey LCP,
Let's not forget to mention the times when you don't want the quick drying properties of latex. When doing some faux finishes, you need the longer "open" time that only oil can provide.
Creatively,Beatrix
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Beatrix...you are one cute cookie. And absolutely spot on! It's just that us really super fast faux finishers can work with latex for most faux finishes...you can spot us a mile away by our modest and humble demeanor. Kidding of course!
How does the bathroom look. I'm dying to know.
LLL
LCP
*Brewskie- actually there are still inherent differences in the way the paint "grabs" the different surfaces. Some applications should NEVER see a latex. Basically, latex grabs the surface, while oils, true to nature, tend to soak into absorbent materials such as wood. In 15 years + experience with both, I have found a happy medium in applying an oil based primer for good surface adhesion, and then finish out with a quality latex (quality in this case means acrylic). It sounds as if someone may be interested in keeping their labor costs down? Quality before quantity. "Behr", out of N. CA, also makes a blend of oil-latex mix that works for certain apps. And if drying time is a concern, I've always been a Zinnser fan. They make a oil based primer with a 1-hour dry time, and a shellac based primer with a 15 minute dry time. Go to your paint dealer (not the local hardware store), and be specific about what application you are using it for. They will be more likely to be straight up, as they have a vested interest in product preformance. Best of luck.
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I agree that the oil primer/sealer is the best for exterior/exposure applications -- my theory is that being hydrophobic it seals better. I avoid oil inside and I hate the cleanup -- is there any appropriate way to get rid of the dirty thinner? (No, down the drain ain't it.)
I'll try the Zinnser. The Behr I last used had a 12-24 hour recoat time (!). The story I've heard is that not only have latexes improved radically in just a few years, but the quality of oils has declined with tightening of VOC requirements.
I understood that the lead in paint -- latex too, right? (before my time) -- improved durability of paint in high abuse locations like doors and windows. It noticeably wears out blades faster when removed. I still think the oil is tougher in the long run, especially as primer. And I haven't managed to get a really high-gloss finish with latex, though I've come close. The fast tack-up of the latex makes it difficult for me to get level coverage unless I work really, really fast, backbrushing maybe once at most.
Question: On lead, I need to scrape a fluted entry door casing at my neighbor's -- a little "Christmas in April"-esque project -- that doubtlessly contains lead. The paint is just about to depart on its own, lots of bare wood exposed. I would like to use a scraper + drop cloth + lead dust mask to do it -- better ways? I chatted with a contractor down the street who was using a stick-and-peel type paint stripper, where a plastic film coated with chemical stripper is left stuck to the wood overnight, then is peeled off with the paint. He liked it.
*Andrew:I have had great sucess in using aircraft type stripper ( available in automobile paint stores- "sold to professionals only" ) and covering it with plastic to let it work without drying out. It is more expensive than stripper in the hardware store, but it is more powerful. Read and heed all warning lables. Do not get it on your skin, it burns quick. Wash immediately, do not wait for burning to start. Use ventalation. Our shop had gas fired unit heaters hanging from the ceiling and one type by Kleen Strip had fibers in it and smelled like ammonia. When we used it in winter without ventallation, the air turned purple and much thicker at the ceilng. Twice my guys did this before seeing the cause and effect.The plastic really works, and was recomended on the stripper container.My neighbors started using this product on their restoration projects of turn of the century townhouses in Richmond. Much safer than burning paint. Which requires a fire permit to do in the City of Richmond. On of my neighbors had a helper set his townhouse on fire that way and without a permit, so he got a fine in addition to the minor fire damage. Frank, still able to breathe
*Sounds like an outdoor product! Plastic = 6-mil polyethylene? (Have you noticed how carpenters sound more and more like chemists?)
*Andrew:Chemist? Cook? The plastic we used was scrap, whatever was laying around the shop. It ranged from 2 to 6 mils. The thinner the better for vertical surfaces because of less weight.Outdoor is great, especially out of direct sun.Some stripper is very flammable. Read the lable. The Tal-Strip brand of aircraft stripper said non-flammable. I knew a guy who had a flash fire in an apartment. He was stripping a mantle and smoking at the same time.Frank
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Andrew- I also find oils to achieve a higher gloss. But I believe part of this is due to the way it dries... slowly. This allows the brush marks to smooth themselves out, and the brush, I'm told, actually helps "push" the paint into the grain. Latex does provide a plastic film of protection, but on close up, it usually contains mainy ridges from brush or bumps from rollers or spray applicators. Would something like Floe-trol solve this? I'm to afraid to compromise the job quality to try it. Guess I'll stick with the old ways until they force me out.
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My dad always tried to reuse his thinner as often
as possible. He'd create a series of containers
and let the paint settle out of the thinner then
transfer the clean thinner into another container.
At some point he'd discard the settled paint in an
appropriate
*fishin'man,Flood products can be very handy...I don't know if it's like the i placebo effect of cures where no medicine was actually taken, but they work for me. I've fallen for floetrol and penetrol and emulsibond b ....hook, line, and sinker.b Hangin on a line,Jacki fish : )
*Kudos to your dad! He was ahead of his time, even ahead of our time.I'm interested in waste disposal generally, being from Boston with the harbor famous for its melted lobsters. Part of the Boston harbor cleanup included the construction of gigantic ovoid "sludge digestors" wherein the solid material ("sludge" -- what floats is called "scum" -- I handled a Superfund case once) is reduced by hungry bacteria in half. The problems for these operations is toxic materials such as chlorine, petroleum products, etc., which kill the critters. Now that water is being conserved better with low flow toilets, aerators, shower heads, and so on the toxic components are much more concentrated.Something else to consider is nicad batties -- such as are in power tools, cellphones, electric razors. Cadmium, like mercury, is a toxic metal that shouldn't be in an ordinary landfill, let alone drinking water. All batteries can and should be recycled, but most people don't know any better. What really irks me is that the industry will do no more than put the cryptic advice on its packages: "Contains nicad batteries -- dispose of properly." ??Well, I think waste is interesting! :)"The solution to pollution is dilution."
*My spin on it is that it is -easier- to get a high gloss finish with oil -- it flows and levels so beautifully, even after lots of backbrushing and tweaking. I am afraid to try the additives given the amount of labor painting involves. Behr said "don't do it!" What I should do is paint a test panel to compare A to B to C and leave it outside for a year. Maybe someone out there already has a house painted with different products?You can get a perfect gloss finish with latex, it is just hard to do (at least for a newbie like me). I have done it, with Behr Hi-Gloss white. (I haven't done pigmented gloss yet, and really need to try more brands.) We put in bay windows to gather more light, and so wanted a mirror-like finish on the head and seat boards.I'm absolutely no expert, (disclaimer!) but found that the secret is to prepare the surface properly and paint really really really fast, like you're late for a hot date. Sand the bare wood or old paint and prime (oil if outside or water-abused) if needed. Smooth the primer with 150 or 220 sandpaper. Filter your paint with a 10¢ paint filter if there is any chance it is contaminated. (Don't use paint straight from the can because then junk rides back into the fresh paint on the brush.) Then apply the paint quickly and reasonably thickly (the manuf. recommend a few mils) with a high-quality brush in excellent condition backbrushing at most ONCE. Wet only the lower third of the brush with paint and avoid picking up a huge glob of paint all at once. Work even faster if it is a warm day. Resist, fight, battle the temptation to fiddle any more than ONCE -- you can sand out mistakes later, but messing with setting latex will give you rope, the brush mark ugliness. You can thin the paint a little if it makes it easier. Stop occasionally to wash and comb the brush. Latex gums the brush up quickly and can be really hard to get out if you wait, ruining the brush. If the brush is gummy or ducktailed, you will get rope.Smooth the first coat if needed and apply a second coat, then let the latex cure for about a month before to subject it to any wear, 2 weeks minimum. Latex cures very slowly and continues to bond/harden for a long time if left alone. The result is so smooth and hard that when I goofed and dropped a big glob of polyurethane foam, which sticks to most things like glue, the foam just popped off later without damage.Of course, this doesn't work if it is really hot...I've tried spraying and get an appealing but slightly pebbly finish. Maybe if I had a better sprayer? Thinning beyond the manufacturer's recommendations helps a lot, but I have to wait to see whether this will harm the paint. I've heard the orange peel look is a problem with sprayed latex generally.This all sounds pretty anal, but when you get used to it is mindless and easy, even fun. Cleaning the brush with soap and water is pleasant, and you avoid thinners that are proven to cause organ damage and which will probably end up illegal anyway, especially in smoggy areas. I wish I could use oil more, but I hate the cleanup and tend not to get the brushes as clean as they should be. When you're done cleaning and combing the brush, it should look and feel like it did when you started, no paint or stiffness.Sorry I ran on so long -- it's just that i got so much bad advice in the beginning, and learned through so many disappointments. Don't even get me started about painting sash...Of course, most people don't even notice the difference of a sharp paint job, but I think they do sense the difference.
*Or is it thermodynamic self-execution?In Revelations: Rob 101, vs 1,Product re-constitution, is life's revolution.Re-source and re-joice all yee C**s !......... may your fractals ever more! As Ever, IReverendt Jack : )
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I have been told by several painting contractors that since the manufacturers have removed lead from their oil based paints that most higher end latex paints are now actually better.
Is this true? Or is it true only under certain conditions?
Brian Ewing