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Lawyers & payments ?

joeh | Posted in Business on March 1, 2009 11:17am

Got a legal question bout a lawyer.

Paid up front $2,500 to lawyer to handle something.

He never did anything, 3 months went by called him & left voice mail “Stop, I have made other arrangements”

Got a refund for $1,700, invoice for $800 for “Professional Services”

No services were ever rendered, all he did is discuss what needed doing and what he was going to do.

But, he didn’t do what he said needed doing. All he did is talk about it.

Question is, if I cash this check am I accepting it as payment in full?

I intend to go after him for the balance, first with polite letter, then to state bar complaint and then to small claims.

So, cash check or not? State of California if that maakes a difference.

Give your free legal opinion please.

Joe H

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  1. User avater
    shywoodlandcreature | Mar 01, 2009 11:22pm | #1

    I'd cash the cheque. You aren't conceding a thing by accepting partial payment in full expectation that the balance is due and will be forthcoming.

    "If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies". -Moshe Dayan, military leader and politician (1915-1981)

  2. Piffin | Mar 01, 2009 11:49pm | #2

    Keep in mind that I have a very limited amt of information about your case, but supposing that a customer and I discussed my building a entertainment center for him, and he wrote me a check for the full price of 2500 bucks, then later sent me a message saying stop work, I don't want the darn thing anymore, he would be lucky to get any money back, even tho he couldn't see how much I had or had not done on the project.

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. joeh | Mar 02, 2009 12:04am | #3

      supposing that a customer and I discussed my building a entertainment center for him, and he wrote me a check for the full price of 2500 bucks, then later sent me a message saying stop work,

      Paul, you and I talk & agree on project and price. You say you will start on it next week.

      I say OK and pay you the full amount.

      3 months later I call and say, "Paul, you never showed up so I made other arrangements and I want my money back."

      That's where this is, I performed (check) and he did not.

      It wasn't anything complicated, the first necessary step (according to him) was to send papers to 4 people which he could have done on day one. Never happened.

      3 months later I called.

      Joe H

      1. Piffin | Mar 02, 2009 12:18am | #4

        like I said, lot I don't know. Now I know more. 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      2. T3 | Mar 02, 2009 12:39am | #5

        i would not cash the check, that might mean your accepting payment in full. plus he might be charging you for consults and telephone calls.and other hidden fees. i had one SHARK handle a case for me about 12 years ago,i was in his office one day and in the mid of our conversation he decided to call the defendant,whithout telling me.a month later i get a bill for almost400.   for that call he had made .so i called him and told him he wasnt getting s**t because ididnt athorise him to make that call. here 12 years later i am receiving birthday cards and calenders and no bill. he was and still is a very  high profile lawyer. but he still didnt get over on me.thats for sure. by the way it was a 5 second call, because no one was there. what a joke some of these sharks are.                                                                                                      

  3. maverick | Mar 02, 2009 12:48am | #6

    Cash the check

    then call and whine

    dont expect much, yer lucky to get anything back

    if you sue you it will cost you that other $1700 to get nothing back

    cut your losses - move on

  4. davidmeiland | Mar 02, 2009 12:52am | #7

    I use lawyers regularly and they always give me a breakdown showing dates of service and amount of time spent, in 1/10 hour increments. For instance their invoice might say

    3/1/09--0.1 hr--call to JoeH's former attorney asking for clarification re what he did and why he charged $800 for it.

    It is not uncommon to give a retainer up front, but I would expect a refund of 100% of it UNLESS services were rendered and a bill detailed as above was provided.

    If you talked to the attorney about the issue, via phone, email, letter, or in person, his time to talk to you would very likely be charged. So if he told you what would be needed, you paid him to tell you that. Call his office and ask the secretary why you did not receive a detailed statement.

    1. joeh | Mar 02, 2009 01:50am | #9

      If you talked to the attorney about the issue, via phone, email, letter, or in person, his time to talk to you would very likely be charged. So if he told you what would be needed, you paid him to tell you that.

      He did tell me what he thought needed doing, and that he would do it. He did nothing other than talk about doing it.

      Managed to get the problem solved without him, did not do what he proposed, but the end result is problem solved.

      Joe H

      1. davidmeiland | Mar 02, 2009 02:01am | #10

        He should have billed you for the initial time spent talking, and then returned the rest of the money with a statement showing the first discussion. Did you ask why he didn't?

        1. joeh | Mar 02, 2009 07:02pm | #19

          I have not spoken to him since receiving his invoice and partial refund check.

          He has billed by the nano-second for his time, there is a charge for preparing one document and fee agreement.

          Don't know what that document might be, I didn't get it nor did I get a fee agreement. Date of those items is 5 weeks afterhe was paid.

          This wasn't anything complicated, and the initial move was to be make copies of some docs and send to the involved parties.

          This was never done, should have been done the day he got my check.

          His final charge is $45 for discussing my voice mail message with his paralegal telling him to stop work.

          He can discuss that all he wants, but not on my dime.

          Next step is a letter, I need some info that I don't have with me so it'll be a week before I write to him.

          For all the free legal advice, thank you, and Blue, I've been in the screwed by lawyers club before.

          Joe H

          1. davidmeiland | Mar 02, 2009 07:26pm | #20

            I think I would look into the bar association complaint process. Sounds like BS to me.

          2. renosteinke | Mar 03, 2009 01:12am | #22

            Well, you have your answers .... and, IMO, a pretty damn good reason to find another lawyer.

            Indeed, a chain of events like the one you went through might be a good way to screen lawyers.

          3. joeh | Mar 03, 2009 01:55am | #23

            He's been screened, I been screwed.

            But, start with letter then bar assn, then who knows.

            Funny thing is, this is supposedly his area of practice.

            Maybe his coke habit has gone out of control?

            Joe H

          4. renosteinke | Mar 03, 2009 02:39am | #24

            Maybe you missed my point. let's look at a different example ...

            In my line of work, sometimes I put holes in the wall. This means somebody has to fix them after my work is complete.

            Often, that 'somebody' is me. Yet, I can better use my time doing other tasks, tasks that I do better than patching walls. So, I'm usually willing to hire someone to do the job for me.

            If they do a poor job ... defined as my not being happy for some reason ... I probably won't use them again. I give someone else a shot the next time.

            Was I 'screwed' by the poor performer? Perhaps. Still, it's (in the grand scheme of things) a cheap way to find out is the guy is any good.

            The same principle applies when you're not happy with a restaurant. You pay up, and don't go back.

            All the lawyer represents is well-dressed hired help. If you don't like him, fire him. There's no need for screaming; just take your business elsewhere. If someone referred him, let them know it was a false lead.

          5. dejure | Mar 05, 2009 08:50am | #28

            If you want to make an attorney nervous, ask for his omissions and errors insurance. You can also file a bar complaint. He MUST answer it. If I were doing the latter, I would do it by declaration and, where applicable, would incorporate, by reference, relative supporting documentation. It may sound complicated, but it's not.That which I least want to do is oft that which I most should do. And I can't afford cheap.

  5. rlrefalo | Mar 02, 2009 12:57am | #8

    I've heard that you can write "under contest" on a check when the amount is incorrect to maintain your right to collect the balance.

     I'd check with a good lawyer though.

  6. Dave45 | Mar 02, 2009 02:09am | #11

    The $1700 check plus the $800 invoice seems to fully account for your $2500 so I doubt if you have much of an argument. Assuming his fees are $200/hr (probably not too far off), he's charging you for four hours work. You probably spent at least an hour talking with him and it's easy to use up a few more hours doing research, making calls, etc.

    Also keep in mind that lawyers charge in increments and a five minute phone call might get billed as a full increment of 1/4 hr, 1/2 hr, or a full hour depending on what they use.

  7. betterbuiltnyc | Mar 02, 2009 04:31am | #12

    Cashing the check doesn't affect your right to persue further refund--but it makes things more complicated. To keep things clear, you ought return the check and demanding full refund or keep it in a drawer and write a letter to the law-talker demanding the balance. It is routine for lawyers to return retainers if no services are rendered.

    1. betterbuiltnyc | Mar 02, 2009 04:32am | #13

      One more thing--I assume you have a retainer agreement since you sent money. Does it address this situation--or speak to the cost of the initial consultation?

  8. renosteinke | Mar 02, 2009 05:09am | #14

    He gets to keep your money.

    A lawyers' stock in trade is his education and experience. As such, he gets paid for simply discussing or thinking about your case.

    Though you might drop him a note, or call him, asking for some manner of accounting. After all, the amount does seem high for an initial consultation.

    1. TooManyToys | Mar 02, 2009 06:36am | #15

      He gets to keep your money.

      A lawyers' stock in trade is his education and experience. As such, he gets paid for simply discussing or thinking about your case.

      Though you might drop him a note, or call him, asking for some manner of accounting. After all, the amount does seem high for an initial consultation.

       

      This is correct.  In fact, just for reading this thread I need to bill for .2 hr.  JoeH, can I have your mail address?

       

       

       

       

       

      J/K - not a lawyer.

  9. dejure | Mar 02, 2009 02:25pm | #16

    First, you have the right to an itemized accounting of the billings showing where your money went.

    If you were dealing with an insurance company and it said you had only a thousand coming for a damaged car you knew was worth four, cashing the check would be acceptance of the offer and you'd be stuck.

    Even if you cash the check, if you have the energy, you may be able to persuade him to give more of the money back. I had a divorce attorney drop a twenty-five k bill, after I rubbed his nose in a few facts. For example, I pointed out things in law he didn't do that could have altered my case, then asked him for his errors and omissions insurance. It took some reading of the Revised Codes for my state, along with a review of the court rules, but that's pretty easy now days, with everything on line.

  10. MikeHennessy | Mar 02, 2009 03:50pm | #17

    Dunno about California, but in PA, a lawyer pretty much has to give you a written fee agreement up front if he want's to prevail in any fee dispute. Do you have one?

    Legal services are often, but not always, billed on the basis of time plus out-of-pocket expenses. If your lawyer is working on a time basis, you are entitled to a detailed bill itemizing the time and hourly charges. Do you have one?

    Where I am, the local Bar Association has a Fee Dispute Committee that will help resolve this sort of issue for free. You  may want to check locally to see if there is a similar arrangement where you are.

    FWIW, "no services were ever rendered" may really be "no services were rendered that I knew about." Many times, there's a lot of work done just to prepare to move forward. I can spend hours on research just to write a 3-page document. Dunno if your lawyer had done work to prepare to "do something". Still, it should be itemized and documented if you're expected to pay.

    Mike Hennessy
    Pittsburgh, PA

  11. jimAKAblue | Mar 02, 2009 04:41pm | #18

    Welcome to the "I've been screwed by lawyers" club.

  12. brad805 | Mar 02, 2009 11:16pm | #21

    I bet you got billed for the time he spoke with you, a basic fee for his assistant or secretary to setup a file, then he listened to your message, prepared the bill and a letter.  Our lawyer .2hr's us to death.  Read message = 0.2hr, reply message = 0.2hr.....  We quickly learned to stop sending emails to him. 

    Time to move on.

    Brad

     

  13. KFC | Mar 03, 2009 02:52am | #25

    A doctor and a lawyer are at a cocktail party.  A lady talking to the doctor finds out he is an M.D., and asks for his advice on her sciatica.  After she goes away, the doctor turns to the lawyer and says:

    "don't you hate it when people bug you for free professional advice at a party?"

    The lawyers says:

    "You want my advice?  You should send a bill to everyone who asks you a professional question at a party."

    Two days later, a bill from the lawyer for $450 shows up at the doctor's office...

    Ba Dump Tsss

    k

  14. DanH | Mar 03, 2009 02:54am | #26

    You should hire a lawyer to look into it.

    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
  15. hofersj | Mar 03, 2009 03:51am | #27

    Well, I'll out myself - I'm an attorney. I'm no longer in private practice (went in house a few years ago), but I'll give you my two cents worth. While there are a few bad apples in any profession and the bill sounds high, there may be a reason for it. Attorneys are paid for their knowledge and experience; although we prepare documents, much of the value that attorneys can provide is intangible. In addition to charging you for your initial consultation, there may have been a non-refundable portion of the retainer or some research or review of documents in the interim.

    If you have a fee agreement, I would review it first. Then I would suggest asking for a detailed bill that shows the amount of time spent on a particular day and summary description of the work (e.g., telephone conversation with client; research; drafted purchase agreement). Most attorneys will be able to provide you with a detailed invoice; the time and billing software used by firms of any size will invariably require this level of detail at a minimum. If you aren't satisfied with the information on the new bill, ask for some or all of your money back. If you aren't satisfied with the response, contact the State Bar of California.

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