Replies

1. 
   Mooney | Dec 21, 2006 08:05am | #1

   I hate to even admit this as tight as I am.

   I just spent 3600 on a plasma. Its DWs fault . She talked me into turning loose of the green. I fell to the temptation so I know Ive sinned.

   DW wanted it over a fireplace up stairs or down stairs.

   Now you come in here with this question cause you are doubting it your self or you wouldnt be here with it .

   Im here to tell ya I dont know but it just aint right to do it . It just aint morally right . Its just more sin followin sin. Before ya know it the devil will have your soul.

   I couldnt do it  even though the rooms were set up for the fireplace to be a focal point with the seating looking at it .

   If you are watchin a tv thats sittin on top of the tv you used to watch, you could be a redneck. <G> You might be one too if you damaged a plasma sittin on top of a fireplace. If ya did , you would never ever tell anyone . Not nary a soul.

    

   Tim

    

    

1. 
   DavidxDoud | Dec 21, 2006 09:19am | #3

   bless you Tim - -

   I've been feeling guilty about a $800 unit that I then spent another $150 on jes so it hooks up to my stereo right -

   I'm thinkin' now when I get to the pearly gates,  I can point to you and say my sin wasn't so bad -

   and I think a plasma over the fireplace is fine,  as long as you never have a fire -

   but I don't like lookin' up at a TV,  so I'd probably just unhook the fireplace and put the TV in the firebox so it would be the right level for viewing - jes get a DVD of a fire - safer that way -

    "there's enough for everyone"

1. 
   Mooney | Dec 21, 2006 09:33am | #4

   Its about to tear me a new one .

   Case of da red azz that is .

   How stupid of me .  Its not even fun yet till a football game comes on. At least that helps a bit.

   Be ashamed,

   Tim

    

    

   Edited 12/21/2006 1:35 am by Mooney

1. 
   TomT226 | Dec 21, 2006 03:11pm | #6

   My 50" Sony shore makes them Cowboys (& girls) look good, and I ain't even sprung for the HD package and DVR.... 

1. 
   Mooney | Dec 21, 2006 04:30pm | #10

   It aint right 

2. 
   wrudiger | Dec 21, 2006 08:25am | #2

   I sure would never do it.  I have a Quadra vent that's 80%+ efficient, and it's scary how hot the granite surround can get, even 18" above the box.  (Granite is backed by cement board).

   I've seen other units that don't get as hot, but still...

3. 
   TomT226 | Dec 21, 2006 03:08pm | #5

   The wall mounts allow the screen to stand off from the wall +/- 6", so a surface heat source of heat shouldn't be a problem.

   Check out http://www.plasmabuyingguide.com as they have several FAQ's on this subject.

    

4. 
   alwaysoverbudget | Dec 21, 2006 03:12pm | #7

   i have 36" non-vented fireplace. from the top edge of box to the mantel is about 14",then the mantel only sticks out about 4". on top of the mantel is a built 50" sony.when the fireplace is on the screen does pick up some heat . just warm to the touch,so far no problems. i have played with it some and it would help alot if the mantel stuck out another 6",that way as the heat rises it would deflect outward,then rise out past the tv 10" away.i have the same problem mooney has ,when i think about what i paid for the dang thing , watching it isn't as much fun as it should be....... larry

   hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.

5. 
   alwaysoverbudget | Dec 21, 2006 03:16pm | #8

   oh ,here is one big con,if you have windows or a hanging light [i have like a 6 bulb fixture that is over a table]it's real easy to pick up reflections in the screen,because you are sitting below the tv looking upwards. larry

   hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.

6. 
   highfigh | Dec 21, 2006 03:27pm | #9

   Plasma displays have low heat tolerance and will actually shut down if they get too hot (about 105ºF internal temperature). Before mounting it, light a fire and feel around the wall over the opening and see how hot it gets after a long time. The mantle (if there is one) will deflect some of the heat but not all of it.

   If the fireplace insert has an inducer fan, you may not have much to worry about, especially if the wall behind the plasma is really well insulated. I just hung a 55" Hitachi yesterday above a fireplace and that one does have the inducer fan and it's mounted too high, IMO, but that's where they wanted it.

   LCD isn't as sensitive but you don't want that to get too hot, either. The screen is covered with plastic and it can warp or discolor.

   If a frame is built around a plasma, it needs a gap around the edges and if there's no gap, active ventilation (a computer fan) needs to draw fresh, cool air into the space surrounding the TV.

   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
1. 
   DavidxDoud | Dec 21, 2006 06:39pm | #12

   the pimply faced associate at BB (actually,  that's unfair - he was a nice young man who was seemingly trying to do a good job) that I talked too when we were investigating possibilities suggested that plasma units do not co-exist well with dusty conditions - a real issue in our house -

   and might be an issue over a fireplace - even a gas one provides a lot of energy to raise and circulate dust in the air -

   dunno - what's your opinion?

    "there's enough for everyone"

1. 
   DanH | Dec 21, 2006 06:53pm | #13

   I would expect both types of displays to be sensitive to heat, more so than a conventional CRT. Hard to say which would be more likely to be permanently damaged. But given the difference in price, I'd be reluctant to risk a plasma display. Even if the display itself isn't harmed, the heat will reduce the life of the electronics.(Of course, the life of a plasma display is limited anyway, so the reduced life of the electronics may be moot.)
   People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck

1. 
   PhillGiles | Dec 22, 2006 12:24am | #29

   The literature on our plasma set indicates that the short life rap doesn't really apply any more and that we should get a good picture for at least 50,000 hours. And the brilliant blacks are worth the extra money.  But it does generate a LOT of heat.  We were going to wall mount ours, but they told us we'd have to reinforce the wall, so we bought a 4' stand for it.

   <!----><!----> <!---->

   Phill Giles<!----><!---->

   The Unionville Woodwright<!----><!---->

1. 
   DanH | Dec 22, 2006 12:34am | #31

   I'm going on the article I read last month in IEEE Spectrum. And they said the blacks are the first thing to go.
   People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck

2. 
   PhillGiles | Dec 22, 2006 12:40am | #34

   By the way they are generated, you know that can't be true (on a plasma, black is truely the absence of light, something you physically can't do on any projector set)

   <!----><!----> <!---->

   Phill Giles<!----><!---->

   The Unionville Woodwright<!----><!---->

3. 
   BARMIL48 | Dec 22, 2006 12:54am | #36

   Sony has dropped plasma to concentrate on LCD. There's a message there. Viewing height is important to me, and above the fireplace would just be too high for the headrest on my chair. I have my computer monitor at or below eye level for my neck's benefit.

4. 
   PhillGiles | Dec 22, 2006 08:43am | #45

   Sony had a cost problem and couldn't close their business case - the message is, if there's no profit, stop.  I don't even know if Sony was making their own, or using the Hitashi (which could have been its twin)

   <!----><!----> <!---->

   Phill Giles<!----><!---->

   The Unionville Woodwright<!----><!---->

5. 
   DanH | Dec 22, 2006 01:10am | #37

   I'm just going by what was said in the article. I'm guessing the author knew his stuff.
   People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck

6. 
   highfigh | Dec 22, 2006 01:19am | #39

   What article and who wrote it? Is he a writer or does he work with them on a regular basis, installing and servicing them?
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

7. 
   Terry | Dec 22, 2006 01:46am | #40

   A few select quotes from the IEEE Spectrum November 2006 issue article, "Goodby CRT" by Paul O'Donovan, principal research analyst for Gartner Dataquest based in England (obviously NOT an installer--but when have you seen an installer return a year later to check the brightness and contrast unless there was an outright failure).

   Nevertheless, a plasma TV won't be the last TV you buy. Here's why: it's got limited longevity, it's power hungry, and it's heavy.  Like CRTs, plasma displays use red, green, and blue phosphors, but instead of hitting the phosphors directly with a beam of electrons, as in a CRT, a plasma display charges pockets of xenon and neon gas trapped between two glass panels with a honeycomb of cells.

   <!----><!----><!----> 

   In essence, every plasma display contains about a million miniature fluorescent tubes, evenly divided among red, green, and blue. When the charged, or ionized, gas releases ultraviolet photons, these photons strike the phosphors, which, in turn, emit the colored light that produces the television picture.

   <!----><!----> 

   The longevity problem comes from the fact that the light emitting efficiency of the phosphor coating decreases over time––that is, when a phosphor is stimulated by a photon, it releases less and less light. The problem is much worse in a plasma set than in a CRT because the plasma's phosphors exist in a hostile environment; the electron beam in a CRT is much kinder to phosphors than are a plasma's hot gases. In a plasma display, the contrast ratio‑the difference between lit and unlit picture elements‑drops quickly under normal use, as much as 50 percent in four to five years. At that point, the television image appears noticeably washed‑out.

   <!----><!----> 

   Manufacturers today claim 60,000 hours of use before the brightness falls by half (based on a few hundred hours of testing).  Contrast, however, is more important than brightness.  Recent tests by market research firm IDC, in <!----><!----><!---->Framingham<!---->, <!---->Mass.<!----><!---->, measured a 13 percent decline in the darkness of the black of atypical plasma television after four weeks of use; after five years of use, such a rapid decline could lead to blacks displaying as light grays.

   <!----><!----> 

   Plasma displays also consume more power. Even though manufacturers have reduced the power consumption of typical plasma technology by 30 percent over the past five years, these units continue to need more power than comparable LCD TVs, particularly when displaying a white or light screen. This power consumption generates heat; if the sets are not cooled properly, heat build‑up can damage components. Before you buy a plasma TV, consider this fact: Philips sent repair technicians to 12,000 <!----><!---->U.S.<!----><!----> homes this past spring to replace components in plasma TVs that could potentially overheat.

   <!----><!----> 

   Plasma displays are also heavier than their flat‑panel competitors. Because the glass panels that surround the gas are much thicker in plasma displays, a 40–inch plasma set weighs 43 kilograms, while the same‑size flat‑panel set weighs just 25 kg. Plasma technology requires such thick glass because the gas is very hot; thin glass would simply melt.

   <!----><!----> 

   There are other problems, too, such as burn–in. It's a particular problem nowadays because with 1000–channel cable and satellite services, TV networks feel an acute need to identify themselves all the time, usually with a static channel logo in the lower part of the screen. Again, because plasma technology is harder on phosphors than CRT technology is, burn‑in happens faster and is more noticeable on plasma televisions. Manufacturers have done a lot to deal with this problem, and on new plasma sets, after approximately is hours of use without the static image, the burn‑in will fade away. But it is still a drawback.

   <!----><!----> 

   And as if those problems weren't enough, plasma sets also don't work well at high altitudes or, indeed, in any place where the ambient pressure is different from that of their internal gases. When such a differential exists, the TV's power supply has to work harder to keep the gases ionized.<!----><!---->

   OK, Ok.  So that is more than just a few quotes.  But, if you have read this far, you may be getting the idea that plasma television sets are not the "greatest thing since sliced bread."

   LCDs also has life limiting issues but they are much farther out (about 15 years).

    

8. 
   DanH | Dec 22, 2006 01:47am | #41

   IEEE Spectrum, Nov 2006 http://spectrum.ieee.org/nov06/4697<quote>
   The longevity problem comes from the fact that the light-emitting efficiency of the phosphor coating decreases over time—that is, when a phosphor is stimulated by a photon, it releases less and less light. The problem is much worse in a plasma set than in a CRT because the plasma’s phosphors exist in a hostile environment; the electron beam in a CRT is much kinder to phosphors than are a plasma’s hot gases. In a plasma display, the contrast ratio—the difference between lit and unlit picture elements—drops quickly under normal use, as much as 50 percent in four to five years. At that point, the television image appears noticeably washed-out.Manufacturers today claim 60 000 hours of use before the brightness falls by half (based on a few hundred hours of testing). Contrast, however, is more important than brightness. Recent tests by market research firm IDC, in Framingham, Mass., measured a 13 percent decline in the darkness of the black of a typical plasma television after four weeks of use; after five years of use, such a rapid decline could lead to blacks displaying as light grays.
   <end quote>About the AuthorPAUL O’DONOVAN is a principal research analyst for Gartner Dataquest, based in Egham, England, and covers semiconductors and consumer electronics. Before joining Gartner 10 years ago, O’Donovan spent 12 years as a marketing engineer for National Semiconductor Corp., in Santa Clara, Calif.

   People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck

9. 
   highfigh | Dec 22, 2006 02:37am | #43

   Don't get me wrong, I never said Plasma is the best device to use for TV, I just said they aren't dead after 3-5 years. There are tens of thousands out there that look great. Phillips repaired displays that had a design flaw and they took them to market anyway. Sony finally got out of plasma after using someone else's guts for a few years but they're hurting in other ways, too. Plasma displays are expensive to make, finnicky and expensive to repair. Hardly what would make me want to be the first on my block to own one.Plasma displays can look great but so can LCD (mostly with still images), DLP, front projection and CRT. CRT is still the cheapest way to get a TV with a good picture but the larger they are, the thicker the glass needs to be to prevent implosion. Rear projection doesn't do it for me. Three gun rear projection never looked great, IMO. Low contrast, soft focus, low video dynamic range and they're too effin' big.I guess I need to perfect my "direct to the brain" A/V signal input, 'cause I hate a lot of the stuff I see from all of the different displays, and a lot of it has to do with the way the signal comes through. Next time you get a chance, watch a football game and look at the background. The choppiness and little vertical sections, the graininess when they pan the camera, mosquitos and all of the other flaws really make me crazy. Bigger is nice, to a point. Viewing distance is one of the biggest factors in making the decision of which type is best for the application. Most people aren't at high altitudes, temperature extremes or high vibration areas. If they are, plasma is NOT the one to buy. Also, cheap plasma is like anything else- if it seems too cheap, it is. Cheap plasma and LCD sets are usually not HD, they're ED and while they come with a good picture, 1080 is not gonna happen with or without a little blue pill.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

   Edited 12/21/2006 6:47 pm by highfigh

10. 
    Mooney | Dec 22, 2006 12:35am | #32

    Thanks not only to you but the rest .

    The hours makes sense like miles on the truck .

    Then at what care , brighness , conditions , mounting , etc?

    This thread is worth every pound as much as the battery thread, since Ive got a vested interrest , lol.

    Tim  

2. 
   highfigh | Dec 21, 2006 07:07pm | #14

   Yeah, dust can be a problem because it acts like a blanket on the components and they overheat. Heat is still the main issue but dust can be a contributing factor. If the dust has nothing in it that could make it stick to things when it gets hot, you can blow it out periodically. Gas combustion is cleaner but the convection currents are the carrier of the dust. Did you say that you pulled the trigger on a different TV or did you buy the D/A converter?If BB was going to be adamant about not placing plasma or LCD over fireplaces, they shouldn't have pre-wired the house I did the trim-out and finish installation on yesterday. They wired for component video and L/C/R speakers right over the future mantle. Unfortunately, they also didn't leave enough cable length at the equipment end for the customer to put everything where they want to.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

1. 
   DavidxDoud | Dec 21, 2006 07:54pm | #15

   we kept the TV - which is a CRT unit btw - it's been working well,  and the digital broadcasts (antenna) are impressive,  considering what we are used to recieving with mRF -

   bought the Behringer SRC2496, (I know, throw away chinese crap...),  2' optical cable,  30' mic cord to replace the existing 30' of rca cable (XLR connectors on the back of the 2496),  and XLR fem to RCA male adapter - $161 delivered from 'FullCompass' http://www.fullcompass.com/product/254803.html -

   I had a very pleasant chat there with 'Heather' and we walked thru the issues - she was aware of another unit for the situation,  but found it to be no longer produced - and cautioned me about mixing 'pro' (behringer? har - har) gear and 'consumer' electronics - but in the end there just isn't a lot of choice in that kinda price range -

   so - we'll see - thinking this unit might allow me to get some vinyl onto CD's also -

   I've got a nice woodworking project coming up - gonna have to build a unit to hold the TV - DVD - VCR - SRC -

   new TV's are designed not to allow anything to set on top of them - good,  I guess -

   anyway DD programmed the remote to control both the TV and DVD - I'm so proud of her - don't think it's gonna work with the VCR tho -

   regards -

    "there's enough for everyone"

1. 
   bobl | Dec 21, 2006 08:24pm | #16

   plasma TVs, understand that their life is 3-5 years. lot of money for 3-5 years service. 

   bobl          Volo, non valeo

   Baloney detecter    WFR

   "But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG

2. 
   TomT226 | Dec 21, 2006 08:29pm | #17

   My Sony says 50K hours before "half life" is reached.  Figger it up.  Technology will be a whole lot better in 5 years, so yer gonna need a new set anyhow.

   Hmmmm, them Cowgirsl sho' look good..... 

3. 
   bobl | Dec 21, 2006 08:40pm | #18

   "My Sony says 50K hours before "half life" is reached. Figger it up. Technology will be a whole lot better in 5 years, so yer gonna need a new set anyhow."nice to hear 3-5 isn't the limit.BTW we're on our 2nd new set since we were married in '68. 

   bobl          Volo, non valeo

   Baloney detecter    WFR

   "But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG

4. 
   DavidxDoud | Dec 21, 2006 09:25pm | #20

   this new unit is the third set in 30 years (first was used, of course) - bought the outgoing one with my winnings at the state fair in 1984 - it was getting into repair issues and we are facing squarely the digital issue - we now get 12 stations we didn't a week ago -

   still nothing to watch, of course - but Public Broadcasting sends out 5 signals - 4 digital - that alone eases the pain -

   got the Monterey Pop Festival playing off DVD right now - Janis is singing -

    "there's enough for everyone"

5. 
   Mooney | Dec 21, 2006 09:29pm | #21

   plasma TVs, understand that their life is 3-5 years. lot of money for 3-5 years service.

   I weighed that . Not to say I came to a good conclusion.

   Heres what I came up with to answer that topic.

   Its the same as an expensive vehicle that works for a living earning income which the tv doesnt . Anyway the work vehicle is exspensive to operate too. The answer to me is to reduce the usage to select times. I put less than 5,000 miles on my tool truck last year . This year I bought a trailer that hauls the tools Im using and its parked on the job. I pulled the trailer there with the tool truck but have been riding back and forth to work plus trips to the lumber yard and paint store in a mini van that costs much less to replace and operate. In Ten years of service , my tool truck had a little over 100,000 on it before the tornado got it this fall. I expect to do better than that with this current truck not using it AS MUCH driving the van getting 24 mpg over 11 mpg town driving . So why did I say all that in this thread?

   I placed this plasma in a cool basement thats finished close to the ceiling away from moisture from the floor and it has no sunlight. The house return comes down through this room and will dry moisture . Its an extra room which is the den in this house that wasnt being used. My expected use will be around 10 percent of tv watching . 50 percent of my watching is done from a freebee in my office next to this computer.

   I wanted the option of being able to watch a big screen for sports and movies. Parties, get togethers for games like the super bowl . There will never be a game station hooked up to it .

   Now that the dust issue as been brought up here in this thread , Im gonna have to think about a cover .

   Anyway I dont think 10 plus years will be a problem if the unit is not faulty.  I bought a service contract for 3 years after the warranty period of three years has expired.  So Ive got 6 years of protection.

   I also read the 3 to 5 year thing and to me the same applies to vehicles that some here drive . For instance Gunner could never use a work vehicle for 10 years, while Mike Smith just might but there will be a dramatic difference in miles between the two. Same difference with tvs or it can be.

   The biggest point that came up is what is quality  worth if you enjoy watching sports and movies HD. Go to a big outlet where they have them all playing and its easy to see and judge. The you have to ask your self what its worth to yourself. haha. Its as complicated as power tools.

   But there is no way in H Im gonna put one on a mantle and use the fireplace like has already been mentioned. That just aint right , lol. I do love my fireplaces and enjoy them.

   But you are 100 percent right . To add to that there is no chance at a return on the investment so its close to smoking cigarettes.

   On the other hand , check the price of football tickets on the net for your favorite team. That gets the same comment . Thats a lot of D money to watch a football game . But while the fans are sitting 30 rows up in the end feild or where ever , I might be noticeing the color of the quarterbacks eyes.  But probably trying to read the coaches lips calling in plays.

   Its all hard decisions .  

6. 
   DanH | Dec 21, 2006 10:13pm | #22

   > I bought a service contract for 3 years after the warranty period of three years has expired. So Ive got 6 years of protection.But the warranty probably doesn't cover the loss of brightness/contrast that's the primary problem.However, having it in a dark room where you can run it at lower brightness will probably help extend the life substantially.
   People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck

7. 
   DavidxDoud | Dec 21, 2006 10:33pm | #23

   run it at lower brightness....

   ya - one theme that runs consistantly thru threads at A-V forums is that the sets come from the factory at 'burn-out' settings - it's a good idea to get right to the video menu and make some adjustments -

    "there's enough for everyone"

8. 
   Mooney | Dec 21, 2006 11:20pm | #25

   However, having it in a dark room where you can run it at lower brightness will probably help extend the life substantially.

   Wow , Im so not imformed. <G>

   Actually by accident that happened .

   We got it set up in the dark room with no other light and sure enough the first thing it did was give us all head aches. After an hour I was the only one left watching it with a serious headache. I go to the book and the menu and sure enough it was set at the brightest format. I turned it down to the lowest setting which is called echo. Thats where it stays unless its a movie thats showing a picture in a darkened room.

   We will see .

   Tim  

9. 
   highfigh | Dec 21, 2006 11:52pm | #26

   Whoever told you that they last 3-5 years is plain wrong. They may have been referring to the 'half brightness' spec, which is usually about 30,000 hours. This means that the brightness is less than it was originally, as measured by a piece of test equipment. Nice to be able to measure it but I watch with my eyes and the eye/brain interface can make up for some differences, as well as the fact that since the brightness fades gradually, it's not very noticeable. BTW, CRT TVs have about the same rate of brightness loss. 1 year is 8760 hours. If anyone has their TV on continuously for 3-5 years, they should be shot.I have installed plasma displays since they came out and have only seen a few with problems. Not that there aren't more out there that have failed- Gateway had a huge problem with theirs when they came out with their $2495 unit and there are quite a few companies selling them where most people ask, "Who?" when these companies are named.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

10. 
    MVAgusta | Dec 22, 2006 12:52am | #35

    The company I work for buys them by the hundreds, we get a year out of them now, 5 years ago it was 3 months.

11. 
    highfigh | Dec 22, 2006 01:18am | #38

    How are they used? I know someone whose company puts them in dealer displays (they do most of the car dealer and airport displays in the country) and use Hitachi industrial plasmas. They're made to be on all day, every day. I put two of them in his house and 3 years after the first one, it looks great.
    "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

12. 
    MVAgusta | Dec 22, 2006 02:33pm | #47

    24/7 use as eyecandy in a large NY office building.

13. 
    highfigh | Dec 22, 2006 03:24pm | #48

    What kind are they? I guess using something that lasts a year is better than paying double or triple for something industrial. "It's in the budget", right?
    "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

14. 
    MVAgusta | Dec 22, 2006 04:07pm | #50

    NEC for the last batch.

15. 
    highfigh | Dec 23, 2006 02:19am | #52

    Have you used the Hitachi industrial units? Another thing I really like about theirs is that the input module comes out and you can get whatever input configuration you want- RCA, HDMI, DVI, VGA, BNC or whatever and it comes out with two or three screws.
    "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

16. 
    MVAgusta | Dec 23, 2006 02:38am | #53

    I assume we are stuck with the same form-factor as the brackets to mount these in groups of six are pretty much a part of the building now.

17. 
    talkingdog | Dec 23, 2006 03:51am | #54

    I think form factor is a problem with today's construction.People install and build-in for 2006's common size of 42" or 50"
    or whatever without looking ahead to the undoubted fact that
    the next TV they buy, which will be around 2011 or so, (when the
    current HDMI spec is superseded, becomes unusable and all
    the current TVs will have to be thrown out) will be at least one size
    bigger.In other words, the bigger sizes will continue to get cheaper
    and cheaper and people will keep upscaling their sets. The only
    limiting factor for TV installation size is the size of the wall.
    Does 100" sound big today? It won't in 2011.So I think one should anticipate this form-factor upscaling
    effect and not build-in or inset into the wall their TV, since
    the next one won't fit.Better to build a ledge or shelf at a low level and just
    set the TV on that, rather than building it in.

18. 
    Mooney | Dec 23, 2006 04:23am | #55

    I think thats good insight .

    Theres already a slew of cabinets that are worthless now that wont except a 32 inch.

    And Im not even talking big screen plasma.

    Tim  

19. 
    talkingdog | Dec 23, 2006 05:05am | #56

    In my case, since the recycling fee is so high, and
    it takes three guys to get it onto the recycling truck,
    my old 28 inch CRT is now serving as the TV stand for
    the new 32 inch flat panel. It's very sturdy and there's
    just enough flat space to perch the flat panel.

20. 
    highfigh | Dec 23, 2006 05:12am | #57

    You mention the HDMI spec being superceded- I haven't heard anything about that yet (not that I have looked into it, though) but with the price of copper, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the newest versions use fiber instead. 3M has crimp-on terminators and they don't need to be fused unless used for long distance signal transfer. 100" is too big to be practical if it's a plasma but the "newest great thing" is supposed to be made with 1/4" float glass and weigh a lot less than the current displays. That's the rumor, anyway. One of the trade mags I get sends out e-mails and there's talk of an investigation into LCD makers' price fixing. Now THAT will be interesting to see.
    "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

21. 
    talkingdog | Dec 23, 2006 05:59am | #58

    Superseded by what? HDMI2 or some other name. It's not an issue of hardware, it's a software, or DRM
    issue, and also a matter of the extra services they
    keep dreaming up to offer.Anyway, be prepared to retire that new plasma to a
    back bedroom in the near future.

22. 
    highfigh | Dec 23, 2006 06:35am | #59

    I install this stuff- I'm not buying a plasma. I like them, I'm just not buying one. Maybe in the future. It's always a mix of hard/software. You can't play 720i or 1080i/p on a regular CRT and that's a hardware issue. A lot of LCD and plasmas can't deal with those, either. Now that HD DVD will most likely be 1080p HDMI (I never believe it's actually the standard until I see it) or Blu-Ray, there are a lot of people with DVD players and receivers that won't be able to deal with A) the discs, B) the cabling, C) simplified wiring by using one cable from a receiver/preamp that up-converts from other formats. Granted, technology changes and some of the changes are improvements but I think too much equipment is obsolete before it even hits the shelves. I would like to see them come up with a better connector for HDMI. DVI is a lot bigger but is less likely to pull out inadvertently, due to the thumb screws. I was buying some parts a couple of days ago and they have a box of 6' or 9' DVI cables priced at 2/$5 cash. Stick a fork in them, they're done! In a 19" rack with lacing bars and 24" of depth, the cables can be situated so they won't come loose but on a shelf, people move the equipment and cables come out of their places.
    "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

23. 
    alwaysoverbudget | Dec 22, 2006 02:59am | #44

    when they firstcame out that was the life,now 50,000 hours is pretty standard.

     hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.

2. 
   JohnSprung | Dec 21, 2006 11:10pm | #24

   Sounds like the perfect excuse -- er -- valid reason -- to pop for DLP front projection.  All you need is a nice white screen, no electronics, no moving parts where the heat is.  And you can make the picture exactly the size you want.  

    

   -- J.S.

    

1. 
   highfigh | Dec 22, 2006 12:12am | #27

   I like DLP projectors when they are on a great screen and can do 1080p. we put a Vidikron in the demo space for the place I worked last year and it looked great- came with its own scaler, one cable (HDMI) for signal and one for control. Only problem- $30K.I lost the bottom 30% of my screen a while back and was all excited about the fact that I might get a new one. For a short time. I tried to decide what looked best to me and it's still a tube. Bigger would be nice but mine cost $3 and change plus a cheap lunch to fix.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

2. 
   PhillGiles | Dec 22, 2006 12:36am | #33

   But without blacks and a 160º viewing angle.  What are the resolutions on DLP ? 720P ?

   <!----><!----> <!---->

   Phill Giles<!----><!---->

   The Unionville Woodwright<!----><!---->

7. 
   DanH | Dec 21, 2006 06:17pm | #11

   Just mount the set in front of the fireplace and play a DVD of a fire burning.

   People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck
1. 
   wood4rd | Dec 22, 2006 03:51pm | #49

      " Just mount the set in front of the fireplace and play a DVD of a fire burning."   Great idea.... and when the weather warms up he could play a DVD of a air conditioner running. :^)

8. 
   CapnMac | Dec 21, 2006 09:03pm | #19

   the pros and cons of mounting either a LCD or Plasma TV over a direct vent fireplace

   You've gotten all of the construction angles covered (like not overheating the expensive, not-for-repair, appliance too hot; dust, etc., out of the way already.

   The "trick" of mounting a tv "above" normal height is in ciphering up the viewing distance and angle.  This is a fiddly detail, but not too hard to generate in place.  Basically, run a string line from about the top of the screen, to back to where it will be seen from, and note the angle(s).  The wall mounting brackets typically permit a decent range of tilt out from the wall.  Get that right, and glare is not so much of an issue (unless there are fixed fixtures already in the way--then it's "trim & lamps" to fix that, mostly).

   The 'design' problem of combining the TV & FP as focal points "solves" a furniture problem, but not necessarily the "focus" problem.  Ok, some of that is in the anachronism of the "living room" centered around the fireplace.  This is where I firmly join up with Susanka on "away rooms."  The whole idea of a room "away" from hustle and bustle, to me, makes it the ideal place for a fireplace.  The space where everyone sprawls on the couch to watch the TV, well, a tv "goes" there.

   Now, the design argument gets a little sideways if the FP is for heating--that's different.  Of course, for heating, a free standing stove is lot more sensible (and less likely to be a focal point for the furniture--not that watching the stove rumble away on a cold night does not have its own charm; just not likely to have $5k in furniture "aimed" that way . . . )

   Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
1. 
   PhillGiles | Dec 22, 2006 12:31am | #30

   ours is about 170º for dead-on in any plane, so this is not really an issue on the newest generation of sets (in LCD's, look at a Sharp Aquaus (sp ?)).  And with a really sharp picture and wide viewing angles, the viewing distance closes right in too.

   <!----><!----> <!---->

   Phill Giles<!----><!---->

   The Unionville Woodwright<!----><!---->

1. 
   CapnMac | Dec 22, 2006 01:55am | #42

   about 170º for dead-on in any plane

   Ah. but 3-4º of tip out at the top can "kill" any "inclination" (NPI) to bounce lighting glare back to the viewer.  Which saves many, many, trips to the Lighting dealer for trims & lamps . . . (I'm tired just thinking about it <g>)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

2. 
   talkingdog | Dec 22, 2006 01:35pm | #46

   >>The 'design' problem of combining the TV & FP as focal points "solves" a furniture problem, but not necessarily the "focus" problem.I think this hits the nail on the head. As usual, we are looking at the implemenation details rather than the fundamental design issues. There is a hard-to-solve conflict here between these two devices that want to be the home's "hearth", the focus of attention. It's an either /or situation.I'd vote for keeping the the TV out of the family room altogether and allowing the fireplace to create a nice media-free ambience.After all, these screened devices can be put anywhere and everywhere, but your fireplace is pretty stationary.

1. 
   CapnMac | Dec 22, 2006 07:33pm | #51

   vote for keeping the the TV out of the family room altogether

   Then, we get to definitions and local usages.  Most of the plans I see locally, "family room" means the space with a TV, butting up against the kitchen.  "Living room" is the featureless (usually FP-less) space across from the Dining Room off the front door.

   I used to have a decent trade in installing zero-clearance, all-sealed-combustion, NG, "for apperances only" FP in such rooms, so the house owner would have use for the space included by the big tract builder.  Sometimes, we'd even gut the useless-as-a -boar-brassiere FP out od the "family room."  But, that tended to be very expensive, what with 4-5tons worth of dumpster fees.

   The other point on decoration "focus" is that TVs & FP are different, especially now.  FP is about three feet; home entertainment seems to start about four, and is typically in 5-7' range.  "Home entertainment" is just not condusive to "inglenook-ing" either (surround sound is best when "aimed" at a semi-predicted known "audience") . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

9. 
   USAnigel | Dec 22, 2006 12:20am | #28

   Just did this for a customer and it looks great but I can't stand watching TV at the height it is! Feels like I'm in the front row of the movies, or in a seat on an aeroplane looking up at the monitor.

   If this were my house I would rip it out!!!