Replies

1. 
   zachariah | Nov 12, 2009 05:26am | #1

   I'm noy sure I understand the question.

2. 
   lettusbee | Nov 12, 2009 05:56am | #2

   In the traditional setup:

   A project manager should not be swinging a hammer. 

   A lead carpenter should not be scheduling subs, paying suppliers, or resolving issues with homeowners. 

    

3. 
   911RenoGuy | Nov 12, 2009 06:32am | #3

   Two different hats, to different jobs, my friend. Project manager looks after the logistics, lead carpenter is in charge of the rest of the carpenters, usually the most experienced hammer-swinger on the crew. Sometimes guys have been known to wear both hats, but on a large-scale job it can't be done with any degree of efficiency.

4. 
   Hudson Valley Carpenter | Nov 12, 2009 01:12pm | #4

   The way I've seen it done and have done it on my crew, the Lead Carpenter is usually the guy in charge of a small aspect of the job, often with one partner of lesser knowledge, skill or time with the company.  He's not the Foreman, who is also working with his tools.

   The next step up from Foreman, depending on the size of the job, is Supervisor, then Project Manager.   Communication flows up and down this chain, without anyone breaking it by asking questions of or giving orders to, someone not directly above or below their position. 

   The only exception to that would be the Foreman giving instructions to the any and all carpenters, lead or otherwise.

1. 
   Oak River Mike | Nov 13, 2009 01:30am | #5

   Now the latest mention of it in JLC talks about the LC being the guy you can leave on the job by himself to get it done.

   Thats the concept I am wondering about.

   How does that work?  I mean, I know how its SUPPOSED to work but DOES it work?  I guess you could say I was an LC years ago when I worked for a contractor as I did it all while he went out and solicited other jobs.

   Is anyone doing this in their business?

1. 
   JohnCujie | Nov 13, 2009 02:16am | #7

   I worked for a company that had about five such guys, including me. Everyone had a job, in the $600k to a million plus range, and ran it as their own. You were on the job from the first day to the last. Had the office to fall back upon for a major problem, providing subs, coordinating finish materials, etc. We did all the guy ordering, lumber, etc.Basically you did most things a small contractor does except bid jobs and handle the money. Everyone was happy, made more money than when on their own. Nobody worked more than 40 hours. Every business model is different. John

1. 
   Oak River Mike | Nov 13, 2009 04:11am | #8

   Thank John and the rest.

   John's description is how I kind of thought it might have been but I guess there are multiple variations.

1. 
   MisterT | Nov 15, 2009 06:07pm | #9

   In order to try not to be totally negative on the LC system.
   there is a good article in the new JLC on it.But they make only a small mention of what I see as it's biggest obstacle.$$$too many GCs want to try and make this work with very little monetary incentive.Why would a Good carpenter want the increased hassle and headache AND get to do LESS of what he loves with out adequate compensation.this is a business concern but the potential LC can't use a businesslike assessment of the position.I won't go any further because I will get into my Cheapa$$ contractor rant.I hope it works out for you and your crew..
   .
   "After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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   If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
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   according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."

2. 
   mike_maines | Nov 15, 2009 07:02pm | #10

   We (residential design/build) work with what we call foremen, but the system is close to Tim Faller's lead carpenter concept.  The designer/project manager does all the preliminary work, does the drawings, does the estimates, gets bids from subs, and gives the foreman a packet of information including who the subs are, drawings and specs.  The foreman is in charge of ordering material, scheduling subs, and communicating with the homeowner once the job starts. 

   Of course it never runs perfectly smoothly; designs aren't complete, changes happen, owners prefer to email the designer/pm instead of meeting with the foreman, etc.  But ideally, that's how it works.  The foreman might run one large job or multiple smaller jobs, and has a #2 guy who can run small jobs or work on the main crew as well.

   The foremen like the autonomy.  They own their jobsite.  The designer/pm becomes office support once the job starts.  The foremen don't have to do estimates or deal with any paperwork other than time cards.

   Being foreman in our system is not for everyone.  It takes a guy who can run a crew pretty independently but doesn't mind being out of the loop in the early stages.  They get paid a little more than the carpenters.  Carpenters and foremen get job bonuses based on profit. 

   Using this system we now have two solid crews that can split into multiple smaller crews, allowing us to do a huge variety of work, from small repair jobs to million dollar homes.  One of our biggest problems is that our best carpenters WANT to be foremen, but it's a coveted job and does not have much turnover.  Our two foremen have each been there over ten years. 

3. 
   jimAKAblue | Nov 15, 2009 07:10pm | #11

   I don't agree with your rant. Some people prefer to deal with those hassles and want to do less carpentry. So, there is a job for all kinds of people. The key is to hire people that fit the system. In my carpentry days, I would not have considered a job where my primary focus was paperwork and babysitting. In my older days, that might be a perfect fit. The money would not be different for either job because I would be an hourly job.

4. 
   MisterT | Nov 15, 2009 11:17pm | #13

   my "rant" basically there are a lot of GCs that don't want to make the necessary COMMITMENT it takes to make the LC system work.Mainly it is a control thing.they don't really want to hand over the reigns or pay to make the extra bull$h!t worth the hassle.No lead Carpenter in the world can make the system work with out:Accurate plansgood specs a reasonable estimate a well defined scope of workthe authority to make subs and workers do their job rightan office staff that helps solve problems instead of pushing them back on the LeadSure a lot of jobs are successful with a few of the above problems but not a lot of GCs want to conquer the learning curve that will transition them into this system.it is a great system and can be real lucrative for all involved.15-20 years ago I would have loved to get in with a firm that had their stuff together well enough to make this work.But getting contractors to give up any of their profit or control is like herding cats ...with explosives....
   .
   "After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
   .
   .
   .
   If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
   .
   .
   .
   according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."

5. 
   MisterT | Nov 13, 2009 01:43am | #6

   in my experience the LC is the guy who has to make sure everybody has and knows everything they need to get their job done and also has to do his own work and handle the client and the designer and be a general scapegoat when things inevitably go wrong.

   oh yeah his workload will usually be about 60-70 hours a week but he will get reamed if he tries to collect more than 2 hours over time .

   I have not had any good experiences with the LC system...

   can ya tell????

   .
   .
   "After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion"

   -Neil deGrasse Tyson
   .
   .
   .
   If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
   .
   .
   .
   according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."

6. 
   McMark | Nov 15, 2009 09:32pm | #12

   This whole lead carpenter idea is mostly a matter of semantics.  In times past, the same position would be referred to as a Superintendent, a working superintendent, a tool bag superintendent, a foreman, and even a project manager.  It is mostly a matter of someone writing an article for JLC, and suddenly the wheel is reinvented.

    

   Depending on the company, office management, and jobs, it is a fine concept.  How much tool belting versus management work is required is dependent on the individuals.  But this type of position has been around since construction began, so I don't think we need to nominate the person who wrote the article for JLC a Nobel Prize in Construction
7. 
   Huntdoctor | Nov 16, 2009 04:51am | #14

   I took a position as a superintendent/project manager for a restoration and remodeling company in July.

   Wow what a lot of work.

   It's is many times harder keeping everything going than I expected.

   Russell

1. 
   Oak River Mike | Nov 16, 2009 06:07am | #15

   I managed 11 guys in the full superintendentproject manager position before and really liked it.

   I would love to be able to do that now...Have one guy in charge of each job and have them run it and do some hammer swinging on it if they chose to do so.  Problem is there just aren't enough jobs out there to keep it going.

   I am doing it on a small scale now with one guy who runs the job while I go solicit other work.  Works fine but we just need more and larger jobs to keep it going...