Hi all, I’m trying to help a loyal client with her leaded glass window, which is leaking water and needs puttying. It’s a large, fixed window (about 8′ x 4′) made up of twelve lites. The most recent attempt to fill the voids where the glass sits in the channels was made with Dap “33” and (Ugh) some silicone here and there. The glazing job seems to have been done with skill, but it has dried out and doesn’t seem to want to adhere to the lead.
Normally, I’d say that the problem was the failure to paint the glaze to seal it to the glass. But the lead muntins have never been painted, and clearly weren’t meant to be. I called the Dap hotline to inquire about their “1012” product, which is made specifically for metal – but they told me it wasn’t suitable for lead. They also implied that whatever was used traditionally for this application is no longer availiable because of environmental reg’s. At any rate, whatever that WAS is long gone without a trace, anyway.
So, what should I use?
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Replies
bump
'Nemo me impune lacesset'
No one will provoke me with impunity
What about refreshing the lead seal? A soldering iron and some lead solder should do the trick.
You may check some books on making leaded/stained glass windows--maybe ask at a hobby store, but I seem to remember someone on a TV craft show mixing up some sort of plaster and rubbing it into the lead joints once the window was all soldered. (Looked sort of like grouting tile.) They had to rub the haze off with a piece of burlap when they were done.
Actually, I did consult a stained glass studio, and was given the recipe (whiting, plaster of paris, turpentine, linseed oil and lampblack) and a whole lecture on how to apply it. It was, like you said, just like grouting tile. But when I told them that the window was fixed, and vertical, they said, "Oh, nevermind all that. just get a pre mixed product and apply it like you would glaze a window.
But they couldn't recommend the product. Same with the glass shop I went to.
Oh. The recipe you gave is the one that I remember them using now. I forgot how they got it dark in color--lamp black, of course. Well, since you are using "modern" products, I would recommend Lexel--it's a clear adhesive/caulk, better than silicone. Available in most hardware stores, but I don't think I've ever seen it at Lowes or HD. It comes in a clear tube with a red top. Really strong, durable stuff.
Go to a stained glass studio. Mine used a powdered product that packs under the lead caning (or whatever it is called). DAP and silicon are totally wrong in this application. I suspect that the window needs to be taken apart and re-assembled by a professional at this point.
In No. CA you must have plenty of craft places that would do this.
Bryan said: "Go to a stained glass studio." Exactly. Lead cames are sealed with a compound that is wiped on and forced between the glass and the came like a grout. I'm not sure if you can restore the seal once it's bad, but the stained glass folks will be able to point you in the right direction.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I'm by no means an expert, but I have made a few leaded glass panels. The traditional method when making a new leaded glass panel is to force a somewhat runny mixture of ordinary (old-fashioned limestone and linseed oil) glazing putty/plumber's putty into the voids between the channels in the lead muntins (I believe the stained glass guys call them cames?) and the glass. You then rub the whole works down on both sides with Plaster of Paris, which tends to firm/dry up the putty a bit as well as darken the lead, removing excess putty in the process. The putty acts both as a sealant and as a structural adhesive/filler. The panels are a good deal stiffer after "grouting" them this way than they are beforehand. It would be a whole lot easier to do this with the window out and horizontal, but not impossible to do it with the window vertical. But since the window is so big, I would imagine that pushing hard on the centre of it might be a risky proposition!
How the heck you'd get the old putty out without destroying the window is another big problem. Any method I can think of is fraught with danger for the window. Guess you need a renovation manual from the 1850s!
I don't have a proven modern sealant to recommend to you either, as lead oxidizes heavily as it weathers and tends to loosen the bond with anything you might use over time. Silicone works great for bedding smaller leaded windows in their frames if the windows are kept behind a continuous pane of regular glass to act as a weather barrier. Exposed to the wet long-term, no adhesive sealant I can think of is going to hold together AND seal for the long haul.
Let us know what you come up with!
Everyone,
Thanks for all the replies. Here's an update:
I got the cames cleaned out with a 5 in 1 tool, small wirebrush and compressed air and then used a small block of wood to smooth/ straighten them out a little. I had to fix a couple of cracked joints, too. In addition to some silicone (which came off easier than I thought with a razor blade and wirebrushing), there was a lot of what I presumed to be original material wedged deep in the channels. Interestingly, it was white and looked no different than what you'd find around any old wooden sash.
I finally got a putty product from a stained glass studio (I don't have the name with me right now) and I tried it out on one of the panes.
By all accounts, including the brief and rather vague instructions on the label, This process is supposed to be more like grouting tiles than "glazing" a conventional window. The instructions say to "apply an even layer of putty to all surfaces, then use a brush (?) to force the material into the crevices" After that, it says to add whiting or fine sawdust to the surface and use a rag to remove excess and polish the lead and glass.
This is why I'm still a little confused. Except for the color, which is black, it feels and behaves exactly like the Dap 33 I'm used to. Even after I kneaded it and got it into a smooth, soft consistency, it still feels like "putty", which doesn't lend itself to wiping -or "brushing" it around - at least not without using a solvent like mineral spirits or thinning it way down with linseed oil.
I can see how this might work on an intricate stained glass application with small sections and relatively tight cames, but these are big panes (16" x24") with gaps up to 1/8" on both the interior and exterior faces (BTW, I've only removed the old material from the outside at this point, so the panes aren't loose in their channels). My instinct was to roll the putty into long snakes to remove the air, then force it into the gaps with a flexible blade before "striking" the excess off to make a clean line - just as you would with glaze on a wood sash. I did this, and then gently wiped the lead clean with mineral spirits. This left me with a dense, smooth result which looks perfect to me, although it seems blacker in color than the lead. When I tried adding the whiting to the process, it just seemed to dry out my lines and "tear' the bond of the material from the glass. It also seems like it will make the surface more pourous and succeptible to dirt, mildew, etc.
I guess I'm not getting the point of the whiting. If it's supposed to be the method by which the glass and lead get clean/ polished, maybe I need to wait a while for the putty to set - but the instructions make no mention of timing. I'm wondering if the whiting is needed to burnish/ seal the finished surface, or help blend the colors.
If anyone has any insight on this, I 'd like to hear it. Thanks .
I don't think you need the whiting/plaster of paris/sawdust in your case. If the putty is thick enough to apply and strike cleanly in the way you've succeeded in doing, then don't argue with the result. There's nothing magic here- you know what you're after. You need a good bond between the glass and the putty, a chamfer or convex shape on the horizontal joints in particular to keep the water from pooling on top of the putty, all the voids filled so that the glass can't move around, and at the end you need clean glass and lead too. If you've met those requirements you should be fine.
Doing a smaller panel on the horizontal with all parts at room temperature, the putty I've used is runnier than you describe. I don't think that would be at all desirable with the size of gaps/voids and the vertical orientation of your window. The runny stuff does require clean-up with whiting/plaster of paris as it smears everywhere and leaves unsightly globs at all the joints in the cames.
Try thinning Dap 33 with linseed oil and then finish with the plaster rub. I know they use sawdust to help remove any excess on the glass.
saulgood,
You need to clean up all the weird stuff on the cames as best you can.
Then grout with some stained glass cement. Use whiting to clean up the excess cement. It will also polish the glass and darken the cames.
Or cover the whole thing with glass.
http://www.shopsmartxpress.com/AmeriGls/AmrDefault.htm?L7.htm
KK
the recipe (whiting, plaster of paris, turpentine, linseed oil and lampblack)
is standard for stained glass panels but I am not sure if it is weatherproof enough for exterior exposure. The easiest way would be to cover the panel with a sheet of glass on the outside but then the panel would not be as appealing when viewed from the outside.
Now if anybody could tell me what the heck did they use to seal those stain glass panels in those multi-century old churches.
Best solution is to cover the outside with another pane of glass.
happy?
>"Best solution is to cover the outside with another pane of glass"Yeah, maybe, but even if I were able to get Home Depot to cut me a four by eight foot arched pane of glass, I'd probably break it trying to get it into the back seat of my car. 8>( It's interesting you say that, though. The house I'm working on (circa 1920's) has a few of these windows, and when my clients moved in they were all protected by plexi glass. The house also featured an early (1960's) "panic room", and a button-actuated dog cage which would release two frenzied German Shepherds to attack anyone who wasn't "on the list".
The previous owner was the father of the Atom* Bomb - I guess his acheivements made him have to look over his shoulder here in Berkeley. Eventually he just moved with no forwarding address.Edit: sorry, Hydrogen bomb
Edited 2/14/2006 6:11 am ET by saulgood