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Leaking French doors?

Gunner | Posted in Construction Techniques on July 14, 2007 02:13am

   We are wanting to put French doors in our walkout basement on our new house. The builder doesn’t want to do it because they say they have problems with them leaking. 

   Are they using the wrong doors? Cheap doors? Or putting them in wrong? Or is this a common problem? I really want them so I can get large items in and out of the basement.

 

View ImageMP

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPONTneuaF4

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Replies

  1. User avater
    McDesign | Jul 14, 2007 02:41pm | #1

    I think the critical requirement is three-point latching - that really makes the difference, compressing the WS consistantly.

    Forrest

  2. MisterT | Jul 14, 2007 02:49pm | #2

    If you get a good quality door and a good install, then the water problems may be site /drainage issues.

    .
    .
    I am not wearing any Pants....
  3. Piffin | Jul 14, 2007 03:40pm | #3

    A good quality unit with three point latching will stand eighty MPH wind driven rain with no problem.

    Look at Integrity or Marvin. Andersen and Pella can do it too.

    The trick is getting the owners to remember to latch both sides correctly. You have to lift the lever handle to throw the triple latch secure.

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. User avater
      Gunner | Jul 14, 2007 04:44pm | #6

        What's three point latching? I'm having a brain fart.

       

      MP

       

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPONTneuaF4

      1. Piffin | Jul 14, 2007 06:25pm | #9

        The hardware does not latch only at the center strike plate, but at top and bottom of each door.
        I have installed Marvins and Pellas where they bear the full brunt of Nor'easters with no leaking.
        Just this spring I had a new integrity stand up to 60-70 MPH winds in a rain that dropped three inches in an hour and over five inches in the storm total. No leaks.I was just finalizing a marvin order a couple days ago and saw a picture showing it on their site, but can't find it today. 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

  4. Snort | Jul 14, 2007 03:49pm | #4

    I've not seen any double doors that completely seal forever at the top or bottom. The astragal just can't be tight there, or the door won't work,and any tight fitting gasket wears out out, or gets pulled off...but, it probably won't leak either<G>

    Setting the door up high enough above splashing water, using a sill pan, and door/window tape all help...doors with a rain diverter at the bottom, and the aforementioned 3-point locking system also help...and never pressure wash the threshold...<G>

    I'd put one in!

    Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press

    Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.

    They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,

    She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.

    I can't help it if I'm lucky.

    1. User avater
      Gunner | Jul 14, 2007 05:00pm | #7

         What about putting an awning over it?

       

      MP

       

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPONTneuaF4

    2. Piffin | Jul 14, 2007 06:26pm | #10

      "completely seal forever"Well, sure, if you are going to add those qualifiers, but I have never seen ANY door meet that standard 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. sledgehammer | Jul 14, 2007 06:50pm | #11

        Someone here once explained DP ratings to me. Get a door with a good one, install it correctly and there is no reason it should leak.

         

         

        1. User avater
          Gunner | Jul 14, 2007 09:11pm | #12

          DP ratings?

           

          MP

           

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPONTneuaF4

          1. mike_maines | Jul 14, 2007 09:47pm | #14

            DP = Design Pressure.  It's the wind speed windows and doors are rated for, tested in a laboratory setting.  Good ones have DP ratings of 40 or 50.  When the wind speed is higher than that, the doors will often leak a little bit.  If you use a sill pan it's not a huge deal.

            I recently installed several sets of Marvin french doors that weathered the same storm Piffin's did, but they leaked, badly.  The doors are maybe 120' from open ocean.  Marvin has sent factory reps out twice to try to figure out why they're leaking, but they just end up smearing on some caulking and say "keep an eye on it."  These doors are $5000 to $8000 each.  So brand name is not an absolute guarantee the doors won't leak. 

            A little roof over your doors would help greatly to reduce the chance of problems.

          2. User avater
            Gunner | Jul 14, 2007 11:53pm | #16

               Thanks Mike. That will be my answer then. Get some with a high DP rating. And dont let a drunk put them in.

             

            MP

             

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPONTneuaF4

          3. Snort | Jul 14, 2007 09:48pm | #15

            Yeah, an awning, or pent roof would help any door... just not with air/water tightness<G> Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press

            Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.

            They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,

            She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.

            I can't help it if I'm lucky.

          4. User avater
            Gunner | Jul 14, 2007 11:54pm | #17

               Sooooo. Your saying a small awning custom made out of copper would be a great house warming present from Seeyou? :)

             

            MP

             

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPONTneuaF4

          5. Snort | Jul 15, 2007 01:42am | #18

            It'd be a hell of a lot better than him burning the place down<G> Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press

            Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.

            They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,

            She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.

            I can't help it if I'm lucky.

          6. User avater
            Gunner | Jul 15, 2007 04:51am | #19

               True Dat.

             

            MP

             

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPONTneuaF4

          7. oberon476 | Jul 16, 2007 02:11am | #20

            The Design Pressure or DP rating of a window or door is based on in pounds per square foot or psf pressure testing of the complete door or window unit in a laboratory setting.

            <!----><!----> <!---->

            Windows and doors are subjected to air, water, and structural testing in a three part test that determines much about the unit’s overall performance. Air infiltration is the first phase, water penetration is next, and structural is the third part of the test.

            <!----> <!---->

            Doors and windows are tested for air infiltration simulating a 25mph wind or a 1.56PSF pressure load - air infiltration is treated separately from both water infiltration and structural and it is independent of the design pressure of the unit while both water penetration and structural testing, on the other hand, are based on the window DP rating.  Water infiltration is tested at 15% of the design pressure and structural is tested at 150% of DP rating.

            <!----> <!---->

            What this means is that a door or a window with a DP20, for example, is tested for water infiltration at 3 psf (15% of 20psf) while a unit with a DP40 is tested at 6psf (15% of 40).  What this also means is that a door or window could have a different DP rating for water infiltration and for structural.  The final "rating" that is assigned to a window or door is based on the lowest DP that the unit was rated for (either water-infiltration or structural - whichever rated the lowest following certification). 

            <!----> <!---->A door or window with a DP20 is rated to keep out rain when driven by 35mph winds while a window or a door with a DP40 should be able to keep out rain when driven by 49mph winds - all presupposing that the unit was installed correctly.

            Edited 7/15/2007 7:16 pm ET by Oberon

          8. User avater
            Gunner | Jul 16, 2007 02:27am | #21

               Thanks. I hope I can remember all that when I have to talk to the builder like a little child. :)  Actually I wouldn't do that. But it will give me something to toss at them.

             

            MP

             

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPONTneuaF4

          9. Shep | Jul 16, 2007 04:04am | #22

            Print out this thread, and show it to your builder.

            Then tell him to stop here if he's got questions.

            I promise, we won't make him cry.

             

            Much.

          10. User avater
            Gunner | Jul 16, 2007 04:56am | #24

               This place is my secret weapon. I'll never reveal its whereabouts.

             

            MP

             

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPONTneuaF4

          11. oberon476 | Jul 16, 2007 04:05am | #23

            you're welcome.   Good luck on your doors!

             

      2. Snort | Jul 14, 2007 09:46pm | #13

        A single panel door could...I've seen the foam gaskets on double door astragals wear out before the CO was issued...we've installed Integrities in 3 recent houses...factory reps had to work on one set of double doors 3 times to stop leakage. The last time out, they completely unassembled the threshold/sill...said the weep holes were blocked. That caused water to back up over the threshold, but was caught by the pan. While they do lock nicely, if all the parts are in the locking mechanism<G>, and I'm sure they'd withstand a heck of a blow...they are not waterproof.Since I know Gunner, I thought he deserved a heads up. And, like I said, I'd still put them in my own house. Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press

        Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.

        They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,

        She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.

        I can't help it if I'm lucky.

  5. roger g | Jul 14, 2007 04:11pm | #5

    I, like another poster has said, I've never seen French doors seal worth a darn. I always see light coming through either at the bottom or top and that's including the ones I've installed. I make a habit of looking at French doors to look at the seal to see if someone else did a better instal and to my chagrin, they haven't. Even guys  who are proud of their instal I see light. It looks like where the mechanism's are at the top and the bottom and sometimes in the middle are where the problems are. I think most of them are designed to look pretty, definitely not sealed but pretty.

     

    roger

  6. peteshlagor | Jul 14, 2007 06:07pm | #8

    There is a tiny little gap down low by the astragal as mentioned.  Some doors come with a one part stick on velcro like WS that the carp puts on after install.  That helps.

    But really, ain't nothing better than a nice pair of french doors.  You can bring in the tractor, snowplow, jetskis, piano, whatever with them.  Don't let the builder talk you out of it. 

    Pay the money for good ones.

     

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