Hi all. I am working on the finish work of a full remodel. I sub’d out the bathroom tile work to leave it to the pros. The shower is a custom pan tile shower. Apparently, the tile guy failed to test the pan and the drain prior to installing tile. When the shower was turned on, water rained down in the basement. Water was leaking around the clamp on drain (clamp not tight enough). The repair that the tile guy wants to do is to fill the inside of the drain with caulk to seal the area between the drain pipe and the clamp assembly (see photo).
My question: Is this an appropriate repair? Should I have him plug the drain and fill the pan with water to test the caulk seal (my answer is yes on this anyway). Any other comments?
Thanks a bunch
Joe
Replies
The pan should have been filled with water and tested prior to putting down the mud bed. If a permit was pulled for the work, the inspector is supposed to verify it does not leak with a full pan. The drain flange is supposed to be bonded to the liner. Caulk is a poor substitute. It will leak. The only question is when. A big pain, but I'd chisel away the bed right down to the liner, glue on a new disk of pan liner and set a new drain. Patch the mortar bed, fix the tile. Call whoever did the drain in the first place and tell him to do it right, at his expense. Materials are cheap, but it takes some time. Don't patch one mistake with another mistake.
I hate to tell you this but Bob is right. The ONLY way I know of to fix it is to take it apart back to the point of failure, fix it correctly (test to confirm this time) and put it back together. That caulk may work long enough for your tile guy to forget your name but it won't be an adequate long term solution.
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Thanks for confirming my suspicions Bob & Kevin
It looks like I got a fight on my hands. Tile guy "repaired" it with caulk and refuses to fix like you say. I will bring in the inspector and explain what happened and how I want it fixed. I will withhold final payment until it is fixed right. I just hope he doesn't walk or file a lien. Thanks again. I had thought this guy was up and up...LOL
Joe
I had thought this guy was up and up...
He will be; Up , up, and AWAY!
I never met a tool I didn't like!
I'm glad to hear you still have the leverage of that final payment. Someone else may come along that will tell you otherwise but I would hold out for having it done right.
By the way, who installed the membrane and did your inspector sign off on it initially? The answers to those two questions may give your tile guy some wiggle room if he chooses to squirm the blame off on others. It can be like grabing at three bars of soap floating in a vat of oil trying to wrestle someone into shouldering the expense of something like this. Especially if multiple people can be deemed "at fault."
I'm just full of good news today aren't I. :-)>
This may ultimately be one of those things where you decide that the fight is not worth the aggrevation. If it starts to get out of hand, with leins and court fights for example, you may decide to let this one ride and see how long the caulking holds. The fix at this point is not much less that fixing it down the road with the exception of potential water damage below.
If it comes to a standoff that starts heading south you may try to "comprimise with your tile guy by twisting his arm into signing a guarentee that the seal he put together will not leak, and if it does he will accept responsibility for damages incurred.
Still, the best thing to do is to get it fixed right now if you can. Grit your teeth and hang on tight - Best of luck to you!Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Its not really hard to fix, just not really fun. A couple hours of work over the space of 3 or 4 days. Cost of materials, maybe $20. Your installer should not make a big fuss about it. I make a mistake, I fix it. You don't have to make a federal case about it. Just tell him that's not a suitable repair and you insist it be done properly. The inspector may have taken his word for it. He probably won't again and may really read him the riot act. Inspectors are good at that.
the only thing I can add is the echo that the tile guy might not be the one to fix it if someone else set the pan and the drain.
when I sub tile ... the plumber lays the rubber and tightens the drain ...
so if I was the tile guy in question ... I'd say call the plumber and I'll cut ya a break when I come back to re-tile.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Joe:
God, I feel for you.
The drain is two part clamping drain. The typical cause for leaking is that the top part is not clamped down tight enough to the bottom to seal the bottom part. It is real easy to fix when the membrane is exposed. It is impossible to fix once tiled. The tilesetter has to chisel out the tile, chisel out the setting bed and remove everything from the joint where the wall meets the floor to the drain.
Once all the mortar and tile are out, and the membrane is exposed, tighten up the four bolts, and then test the pan. Keep tightening until the area until it no longer leaks. Obviously, you don't want to tighten it to the extent that the flange cuts into the membrane. The source of leak might be the corners, but is probably that flange.
This clown should have (a) Pulled a permit; and (b) Got in inspected by the inspector using a flood test.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Boris you are right. It is a two part cast iron drain that failed and not the membrane seal. The tile bed around the drain would have to be ripped up and the drain clamp either replaced or tightened. This guy refuses to do the 'right thing' and has filled the area between the cast iron drain and the pipe with marine sealant. Sometimes you have to pick you battles though and if you want it done right then sometimes you have to do it yourself.
I called the inspector. In this town (in the NW) a permit is not req'd by the contractor but he still has to have the inspector come take a look or usually the inspector takes their word for it. The inspector did not recognize this guys name so I doubt if this guy has ever called the inspector nor tested a pan in the 20-years he has been doing this. Oh yeah.. to answer some other questions, the tile guy installed the pan and the drain and is fully responsible for a leak free shower. The plumbing pipes were of course tested and do not leak.
I will plug the pipe and fill the shower and let it sit for a day.
Thanks for the feedback!
Edited 10/29/2003 11:14:34 AM ET by akela
Well, that settles it then. You are in a pretty good position legaly if you do decide to take this one a full twelve rounds.
If the tile guy won't fix it correctly, do you have enough of his money left in your pocket to hire someone else who will? My firm has occasionally had to find a new sub and backcharge a contractor for incomplete work in the amount of the new sub's fee on construction management projects. It's a royal pain but it gets the job done.
What sort of feedback did you get from the inspector? If no permit was required I don't see any effective leverage the inspector can put on the contractor. That final payment is your best leverage. Unfortunately, if that lever isn't big enough the tile contractor may decide to write it off, slap a lein on and see what happens.
Are you acting as the General Contractor? Sometimes your GC can be a little more persuasive with the potential loss of future work to the sub. Also, The Better Business Beureau in your area is another place to go for a little extra leverage if you need it. Good luck!Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
holding the final payment...whewwwww. Thank god you have some of the dough in yer hands.
Calling the inspector is absolutly the way to go.
Thing is..I'm not sure, but did the tile guy install the drain or was it already there?
Should be the plumbers job not the tile guys job. If the drain was already in it was your job to test it not the tile guys.
I'm a little confused who did what.
If the tile guy did the pan and drain then the inspector should clearly have his hands around this guys throat! Imagine if it was over their $5000 dining room tabel.
BE well
andy
My life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I am not certain that the problem is as you suspect. For the water to have "rained down to the basement" you would have to have a pretty significant group of failures. In other words, for the drain clamp to be the cause a) the tile grout would have to fail, b) the mudbed would have to have lots of cracks and c) the drain assembly would have been clamped so loose it would have been obvious to whoever set the mudbed that it was not tightened. Simply put, even when the above failure conditions are met, it takes a while for water to even get to the two part flange of the drain assembly and when it does it does not rain. It's more of a slow yet persistant leak which continues even after the shower is shut off.
I suspect that the problem stems from how the drain assemby connects to the drain pipe. If you are using PVC pipe then the plumber may have forgotten to glue the drain to the pipe. If you have no-hub then you can fix the leak by installing more lead wool or tapping down the rubber compression connector further (if that is what was used).
F
I would go along with chaulking with silicon, but with certain precations. The pipe looks like ABS. Dry all the surfaces. Clean everything with paint thinner. Completely fill between (red membrane and pipe) wiith silicon (test to see if it stick to all surfaces) and slope it so the water drips from membrane to inside of drain. Then paint a layer of the factory approved glue (for the membrane) from the membrane to the inside surface of the pipe.
If he goes with silicone......I think a two part apoxy would be better.
I've used silicone in a house I rented years ago and it eventually failed.
Be well
andyMy life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM