I get to try a new tool in a few days.
Drum sander!!!
Floor is old hemlock or pin or spruce 5/4 x rw t+g.
someone has butchered it in the past
I need to get it to an acceptable level for finish.
not perfect but not too “rustic”
what grit should I start with?
24? 36? 12?
Or would 50 or 60 do it?
what sould I finish with, 120?
rental place has an orbital that I am thinking about for my final pass.
For the finish, boss says 50% diluted fast dry poly followed by full strength coats.
but these people have 2 BIG doggies so maybe Waterlox would be more durable and repairable/maintainable??
Ditchburns you still out there??
Talk to me people!!
thanx in advance!!!
Mr. T. MOTOL
“They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq. Why don’t we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it’s worked for over 200 years, and we’re not using it anymore.”
— George Carlin
“I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit.”
I’m Swiss!
Replies
You've run one of these before?
If there's a drum with a lift handle, much easier to avoid divots. Either kind, have the machine moving before dropping and while lifting the drum. I drape the cord up over my shoulders to keep from stepping on it or eating it with the sander.
The first passes will remove the finish, probably clogging up the paper. Use whatever grit quickly removes the finish and previous bogus sanding job w/o adding to the previous bogus sanding job. You could start with the mid-range and go down if necessary. I've had floors so bad I cross sanded first to "flatten" it out.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I've done a few floors with drum sanders -- they are really touchy and will leave a floor looking like the ocean on a windy day if you're not careful. When I was doing a floor job recently, the guy at the rental center talked me out of the drum machine and into a machine that is essentially 4 random orbital sanders ganged together into one unit. It was a bit slower, but it was dead easy to do a good job. (My wife even ran the thing with no problems.) Finished up with a floor buffer running an abrasive screen. That was a whole lot easier than a drum as well, once I learned how to steer the thing! (It really wants to run on ya!) You might want to investigate this type of sander if the floor is one that you care a lot about the finished appearance.
I second what everyone here has said (or is that fourth?). Also remember you're going to need a good scraper and an edging sander.
PaulB
If/when you decide to go with the belt sander, start & practice with a finer grit first (60 or 80) to get the hang of it, it will not dig as deep as a 24 or 36 on those first few critical passes, and whatever mistakes you make (if any big <G>) can easily be corrected.
Hey, learning to use a drum sander on somebody else's nickel, and floors sounds like fun!If the floor is pine, and just needs to be touched up, I'd use a square orbital that HD rents. 20 beans a day.Gets under toe kicks, into corners, and up to the base. Leaves minimal handwork, and way less collateral damage if you fall asleep.Much better on the dust plumes, too.I think Waterlox does make floors look better, and it's easy to touch up, but protective, it's not very...Get some pics <G> "what's in a name?" d'oh!
Have you ever used a square pad floor sander? Was recommended by a salesperson to refinish my 100 year old floors and I am not fond of the drum sander. Any input please?
resurrecting a classic thread, I see -
if the floor is cupped or for some reason needs flattened, a drum sander is the ticket -
if it just needs massaged to get to a finishable surface, use the orbital - View Image
View Image
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"there's enough for everyone"
Yo T! Drums is fer drummers.
You want a big R-O floor sander, not a drum. I've run both types and man whatta difference. With the drum, you got yer heart in yer mouth the whole friggin time; one slip and you gotta take off another eighth of an inch everywhere....
The R-O sanders are a joy to use. Slap on a sheet of 40 grit to start and go to town. Push down right/lift up left...the machine will slide off one way; reverse yer grip it'll spin off the other. You don't need a separate edger; it'll get right up against the wall.
Don't finish with anything finer than 100 if you want the stain to soak in right (unless you're gonna use an aniline dye, which I don't). If you want that country look, mop on the stain with a lambswool pad, let it dry in place, then next day buff the mud off to taste with a floor polisher running a white scotchbrite. Varathane Diamond Finish on top of that, 4 coats full strength, and yer good for a good while as long as they keep the dogs off it.
DO NOT GUARANTEE ANY FLOOR WORK AGAINST
DOG DAMAGE!!!!!!
There is no coating in the known universe that will resist dog claws. Make sure this is clear up front and stated in writing....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
We tried both types of sanders-- first the flat type rented from HD, then a drum sander. Floors were red oak. The flat type (I'm assuming this is the type you recommend) just didn't cut, even with pretty aggressive grits. The drum sander worked fine. We rented it from a local shop and it came with a helpful video. Experience clearly matters -- this was my first (and hopefully last) try at floor sanding. A job best left to the pros: my DIY efforts were with our upstairs (rented) flat. When the time came to do ours, I hired a floor guy who did the entire flat for about $1200, which was money well spent. I did have to replace many of the planks (oak strips 3/8 by 1 5/8), and this was a good use of my time.
I agree with those who say don't use a drum sander. Use whatever the sander is called that uses a big rectangular screen. It's a huge random orbit sander. Not as likely to ruin the floor and easier to control, does an excellent job. Still need a hand help orbital sander for close to the walls and corners. Your idea of a finish sounds fine. I also hear Waterlox (spelled?) is good, but haven't used it myself.
Vacuum well and possibly use a tack rag to get all the dust off (some people don't like tack rags, but others insist on using them). When finishing, try to get a good light and look towards it so the light bounces off the wet finish to your eye. That way you'll see skips.
Thanx for all the advice...
now I'm really cornfused!
1) So the R. O. sander will be aggressive enough on softwood that needs "flattening"???
1a) 40 or coarser grit??
B) For finish I was learned that for softwood you need an oil finish because when the wood dents (and it will) polyurethane will just crack.
B2) water lox is fairly easy to apply and keep up Yes??
Mr. T. MOTOL
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it's worked for over 200 years, and we're not using it anymore."
-- George Carlin
"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!
1) So the R. O. sander will be aggressive enough on softwood that needs "flattening"???
Absolutely. Especially with
1a) 40 or coarser grit??
I wouldn't go coarser than 36 on pine.
B) For finish I was learned that for softwood you need an oil finish because when the wood dents (and it will) polyurethane will just crack.
Never heard of this theory but you are right; softwood dents. Varathane Diamond Finish is a pro-use, oil-based poly that does not crack when the substrate deforms under it (I can testify to this from my own personal floor; somebody once came to a party here wearing high heels and the dents are still there but no cracks in the finish).
B2) water lox is fairly easy to apply and keep up Yes??
No idea; never tried it. 95% of the time I use Varathane. Every time I've tried something different, I regret it one way or another....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Merci Beaucoups mon ami!!
Mr. T. MOTOL
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it's worked for over 200 years, and we're not using it anymore."-- George Carlin
"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!
I'm a professional woodworker who usually makes furniture. I'm real good at homebuilding but I'm not a pro. I did my own new oak floor: prepping, racking, nailing, cleaning, filling, finishing, and buffing. Notice that I left out the sanding part. I'm no fool. That's the one part that can be buggered in a heartbeat. I had a professional FLOOR guy do it for me.
That is what I would usually do...
but this is an opportunity to use a new tool!!!
and learn a new skill..
or learn that I DON'T want this new skill>...
Methinks I am gonna chicken out on the drum sander and go with the R.O.
Mr. T. MOTOL
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it's worked for over 200 years, and we're not using it anymore."-- George Carlin
"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!
I used Waterlox for the first time recently and it worked out great. Especially for pine, it brought out lots of color. Be advised though that certain States don't stock the non-VOC compliant mixture, and sell only the new stuff in quarts at a rather higher cost. I had 12 gallons of the old stuff bootlegged in from R.I. to NY. BTW Waterlox is a mixture, not pure tung oil, so you don't have to buff it with bronze wool and all that stuff, it goes on just like poly. Just wear a mask.Ditto what Dinosaur said about dog claws, nothing is going to prevent that wear short of tempered glass.I have refinished dozens of floors with a drum sander/edger combo. and buffed the final grit with no problem. I had the pros do my last floor and asked about the orbital, they still recommended the drum over the orbital, even though they owned an orbital as well. Matter of choice I guess. The drum will cut a ditch if you pause, but it is not that hard to get the hang of it. Remember learning how to drive a stick shift?I do remember a job where the breaker tripped, and one of my guys flipped the breaker back on but had not realized the drum sander switch was still on (most are magnetic today), the sander took off like a ski-doo across the room, right through the wall on the other side of the room. Lots of fun..
T,
Dinosaur has it right, the R.O. is the way to go. We ended up buying one and love it. It takes a bit longer, not a lot, but you have a dead level floor and in halls and small areas where a drum and disc edgers look like crap, you will have the same flat floor as the big open areas. Piece of cake to use relative to the drum sander also. I have run 'em both, and will never go back.
de nada, compañero....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Kay pasta ameego??
Mr. T. MOTOL
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it's worked for over 200 years, and we're not using it anymore."-- George Carlin
"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!
Doggone it, I told ya no more pasta this week! Tonight it's tourtière with ketchup aux fruits and salade verte....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I need a good tourtiere recipe??
This one's easy.
Tourtière maison à la manière de 'Dinosaur'
(This recipe will make one 9" tourtière.)
250 grams (½ pound) ground pork
125 grams (¼ pound) ground veal
125 grams ground beef
1 small onion, chopped
1 clove garlic, chopped
½ tsp each: savory, cinamon, cloves, 4-Spice powder, black pepper (all herbs and spices ground fine)
½ cup water
¼ to ½ cup of dried unseasoned bread crumbs
1. Mix all ingredients except the bread crumbs in a heavy enameled pot or casserole. Simmer for 20 minutes. Break up chunks with a fork. Do not skim the fat.
2. Add ¼C bread crumbs, blend well into the meat mixture, and wait for 10 minutes to see if all the liquid and fat are absorbed. If not, add more bread crumbs until it is.
3. Put the meat filling in a 9" pie crust*, crimp on the top crust, cut steam vents in it, and baste it with egg wash (1 egg beaten with 1tbsp malt or cider vinegar). Bake at 350-375F for 25-30 minutes or until golden brown and hot through.
*For the pie crust, buy a 1-lb. package of Tenderflake lard and follow the recipe printed on the box; it is very good and essentially dummy-proof. Use 6 cups (840 grams) AP flour for one pound of lard. An electric mixer with small wire-whisk beaters works well for combining the flour and lard.
Use lots of flour when rolling out the dough and do not refrigerate the dough beforehand, no matter what anyone tells you. It's not necessary and just makes rolling harder. If it's sticky, just use more flour when handling it.
(One recipe will easily make four 9" two-crust pies, so either quadruple the tourtière quantities, or roll out the extra pie crusts and freeze them in empty pie plates separated by sheets of was paper.)
If you make multiple tourtières in one batch (what I do; saves a lotta time on those nights you're too tired to cook), assemble the ones you won't eat right away, baste the top crust, and freeze them in plastic freezer bags. You can bake them frozen going direct from the freezer into the oven. Baking time from frozen is about an hour.
If you use glass pie plates, put it in a cold oven and then turn the oven on; if you put a frozen glass pie plate into a pre-heated oven, it'll crack. Just make sure the broiler element doesn't burn the top crust during the first couple of minutes; some electric ovens light up both elements when started from cold until the thermostat cycles out the first time. (I hate electric ovens....)
Tourtière must be eaten with homemade fruit ketchup. It is a flogging offense to eat it with Heinz....
What? You want a recipe for that, as well...? How about if I eat it for ya, too?? ;o)>
(I think I already posted the ketchup recipe. Search for 'Ketchup aux fruits'.)
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Hey Thanks Dino,
I did search for the Ketchup aux fruits recipe but couldn't find it. Hope it wouldn't be too much of a bother to post that too. This is getting me hungry already. FWIW a couple of christmas's ago I did a French Canadian reveillonner(sp?) as published by Gourmet. Oyster Soup, Ham, etc. was fantastic. I grew up eating tourtiere but have not had it for years, look forward to making it this week.
Edited 11/1/2005 4:22 pm ET by TGNY
Hey Thanks Dino, I did search for the Ketchup aux fruits recipe but couldn't find it. Hope it wouldn't be too much of a bother to post that too.
I couldn't find it either, daggone it, and I know I posted it somewhere.... As for the 'bother', don't worry...the bill is on the way to ya by e-mail, LOL....
Hope you can get late-harvest fruits & veggies down there; otherwise some of this stuff is gonna be expensive this time of year.
Ketchup aux fruits
30 ripe Ital. tomatoes
6 yellow onions
6 firm Bartlett pears
6 peaches
6 sweet bell peppers
1 stalk (not 'rib'; the stalk is the whole bunch) celery
4 cups sugar
2 TBSP salt
4 Cups cider vinegar
½ Cup commercial pickling spice mix, in a cheesecloth bag
Note: Use a 16-litre pot for this or it may boil over.
1. Chop all the vegetables and fruits coarsely. Combine all ingredients in large, deep pot and simmer for about an hour.
2. Remove the cheesecloth bag with the pickling spice. You will have cooked fruit and vegetables in a thin poaching liquid at this point.
3a. Remove about 1/3 of the ketchup from the pot and purée it in a blender, then pour it back into the pot; or
3b. Using a stick-type bar mixer, purée the ketchup in the cooking pot until you have a smooth sauce with most of the chunks of fruit and vegetables still whole.
4. Place in canning jars and sterilise 20 minutes for 500ml size (pints) or 15 minutes for 250ml size (half-pints).
This recipe will yield approximately 5-6 litres of finished ketchup. I recommend using 500ml jars as a 250 isn't usually enough for eating with a whole tourtière....
Sorry about the large yield on this one, but nobody I know ever makes a single serving of ketchup. You do this once for the whole year. If you cut the recipe, I can't guarantee how it will come out. You'll probably have to taste-test it to adjust for tartness/sweetness.
I also have no idea how well this stuff freezes. If you don't do home canning, sounds like now's a good time to learn, lol. This is about as simple a canning item as you can start with. Somebody you know must do some canning, and whoever that person is, they'll be more than happy to show you how. Home canners are all enthusiasts who love to spread the word....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
The RO will not be agressive enough! I just got thru the refinishing process albiet on Maple flooring, but if the wood is cupped at all or dented you are going to need to cut it down. You are going to need to use the drum for that. It is not as easy at the RO but not as frustrating either. Nothing worse than sanding over and over the same spot and seeing no results. I start with the drum and graduate to the RO. Works for me.
Sanded thousands of sf of floor. First time on pine with a drum sander? Just go easy...Good luck. Oh, and buy a back brace, or weight lifters belt and use it.
There was a really great thread on floor refinishing from Ian not too long ago. They had lots of pictures and good info. Perhaps somebody has it bookmarked and can give us a pointer to it.
-- J.S.
I don't know if it's too late or not, but I sanded my first floor on Sunday. Thanks to the suggestions on this thread I rented the RO sander. I started with 24 grit, then 40, 80, and 120.
Very easy, just velcro the pads on, and flip the switch. The machine moves itself, you just kind of guide it in the general direction you want. The floor turned out nice, and flat.
An Update >>>
Tried a RO with 36 grit : not aggressive enuf
got 20 grit : still not enuf
got a drum and used 16 grit (drive way grit)
took a day and 1/4 to get the gouges, cups, dishes and gouges out.
did a pass (2x up & back) over hole floor w/36 this afternoon.
left instructions for HO to mark or make note of any "character" that is undesirable, so I can address it before I move to 80 grit.
Mr. T. MOTOL
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it's worked for over 200 years, and we're not using it anymore."-- George Carlin
"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!
Man, that floor musta had waves in it big enuff to make a California surfer salivate....
16 grit...on pine! Holy ___!
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Oh man, nobody hipped him to put the grit DOWN! "what's in a name?" d'oh!
ROAR!!!
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Biteme biteme!!!
how ya doing compadre??
I'm already itchin for another fest!!
Mr. T. MOTOL
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it's worked for over 200 years, and we're not using it anymore."-- George Carlin
"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!
All right, a whole nother town to explore, and explore, and explore...LOLand yer itching cause you were sittin' next to Gunner<G> "what's in a name?" d'oh!
Filled a 30 gallon Garbage can with pine chunks.
Mr. T. MOTOL
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it's worked for over 200 years, and we're not using it anymore."-- George Carlin
"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!
Filled a 30 gallon Garbage can with pine chunks.
So yer tellin' me the sawdust off that driveway-grit sandpaper is like Kraft CHUNKY peanut butter? Didja save it to use as kindling to start the woodstove...?
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Well, did ya?
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity