Forrest,
Your other post got me thinking: are there any viable replacements for standard commercial lights?
I’ve seen both types that require rewiring the fixture and others that don’t. And some pretty wide ranges in the pricing.
Thanks,
Ken
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No - there are some LEDs built in to a simulation of a fluorescent tube, that do install in place of a tube, but they're on the order of $150 a tube and less efficient than even good fluorescents.
The only real way at this point to overcome the high price of LEDs is to seriously optimize their efficiency, which means a dedicated fixture. Also, the only real way to give a good ROI is to keep them for years; perhaps a decade or more, and factor in the lack of maintenance LABOR. This makes particular sense on outdoor, pole mounted fixtures.
Forrest - LED boy
The price is bound to drop once they get them into more of a production mode.
There's more stuff to be done with the LED to make it the kind of light people want, but I'm sure it's just a matter of time.
Once they are in range price wise I will switch some of the bulbs I use all the time.
There's absolutely zero issue with making LEDs have any color temperature and any CRI (color rendering index) desired - the LED manufacturers do that already for their commercial and municipal customers.
Unfortunately, color temps below 4100 degree K and CRIs over 80 simply cost more, and have a lumens-per-watt penalty, compared to the awful bluish 6500 K and 50 CRI of the lousy residential units out there.
Remember - all high-brightness LEDs for general illumination actually make blue light. The dies are coated with a layer of phosphor that actually absorbs, and then generates the desired color and quality of light. More attractive light takes more expensive and heavier layers of phosphor.
LEDs will get there, have no fear. Those of us in the business for the long haul hate the cheap, poor-quality junk being thrown in the residential market, because it's going to sour the public's perception of LEDs in general.
Forrest
Hell yes, I'm with you on the LED lights. Obviously you know more technically on them but I've read enough to know that it's what's happening now. It's why incan is so cheap anymore, I imagine it will eventually be phased out like Kodachrome.
I installed a kitchen last year, totally green built etc., bamboo cabs, real linoleum jute backed flooring, crushed recycled glass counter tops, and they used all LED lights under counter and high hats. It really looks fine. You can tell they're different, but the ones they used did have a certain warmth to them and it was very easy to get used to. They only make sense.
Any experience with the LED retrofit kits that Halo makes for recessed lights? One of the reasons I went with the big 6" cans was that LEDs retrofits where available for them... They're still hellishly expensive, (I think in the $150? range), but I'd love to use them if/when the budget ever permits...Z
The Halo retrofit - http://www.haloltg.com/common/brands/literature/Halo/LEDBrochure.pdf
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As you can see, it's essentially the "1900s-dangling-naked-bulb" of can lights.
Our optical engineers hate the fact that there is no optical control of the light - the chip just spoews out light. Distribution of the resultant light on the floor/counter area is extremly non-uniform, so the "useful lumens on task" is very poor.
Plus, a super-bright pinpoint if you happen to look up at it (green spots afterwards in your vision).
Definitely not worth the money.
Much better from a light distribution standpoint (and not just because I work here), is our product - http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/library/ll/documents/brochures/DOM_broch.pdf
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Here, we ring a 97% reflective matt-white parabolic dome with concealed, upwards-firing LEDs. Great distribution, and no visual hot spots; just a real solution instead of Cooper's pathetic "chip in a hole".
We can actually mix several LEDs at the same time around the mixing chamber; a less-expensive and more-efficient method to generate specific color temp and CRI. Even looking up into the chamber, you couldn't see four tiny red LEDs used to kick up the R9 reproduction, for example (red is the hardest color to render accurately).
Just sayin'
Forrest
Edited 7/27/2009 3:30 pm ET by McDesign
Don't doubt that, the DoM looks like a damn cool piece of engineering. But I didn't see a DoM retrofit model (the lithonia site is bit wonky), so I have to wonder if everyone is going after new LEED buildings and ignoring the existing install base of millions of existing incandescent fixtures.
Personally, it looks like it really isn't an engineered fixture ... rather than an incandescent fixture w/ LED stuck in it. Not the way to design for new lamp sources IMO.
Thanks Forrest,If they're not ready for prime time I won't pursue it. I am thinking of putting a set in running lights of my car. Guys seem to be having good luck with certain vendors on those.
The LED world is changing ... FAST. Don't see what you might want? Wait a few months. It's like computers. A reasonable application for LEDs are the tube style used to replace fluorescents in cold cases in grocery stores. Low watts (relatively) so it doesn't impact the refrigeration like fluorescent.
My understanding is that most LED applications are like outside. Street lights, pole lights, wall sconces, etc. The industry is just starting to play w/ interior replacements like PAR lamps or the like. Lots of choices for outside.
And for hard to reach places, the other poster is right. BIG savings in labor replacement costs. This is primarily a commercial kind of issue where you pay someone to change the lights.
Thanks, I'm looking at an office building setup with 8-10 foot ceilings for the most part. The savings need to be in energy used as opposed to time/money servicing hard to reach fixtures.Just wanted a sanity check on what's being sold now for use in commercial type interior fixtures: are they worth buying?
My understanding is ... interior office applications ... they aren't there. I've seen a number of presentations by vendors and discussed it with them and they have all said that while there is definately some research/development being done in those areas, the products aren't there yet. But stay tuned! Keep an eye on the product market. This can change fast.
Interesting as well in refrigerator cases - fluorescents lose 50% of their light output (lumens-per-watt of input power) relative to room temp, when they are used around freezing temps.
LEDs make about 30% MORE lumens-per-watt in the same situation.
Win-win, huh?
Forrest
That is a good point that I missed. EXACTLY. The LED work GREAT in cold temps while the fluorescent is not the best. You may see a pretty rapid shift. Add the lamp life in and you've got some big savings. The LEDs seem to be filling lots of unusual niche markets lilke this.
There are replacements for standard Edison base lamps, but they cost in the neighborhood of $100 and probably don't give off very pleasing light.
Also, due to complete lack of thermal management, they are limited to how much heat they can dissipate, so maybe the the luminance output of a 60-W incandescent, in an un-attractive color not shifted down too far away from blue.
Forrest
The way I'm understanding the LED technology is that the best approach is designing fixtures from scratch rather than making attempts at 'plug and play' with existing technologies. It makes sense. Trying to apply a technology in a way that exactly replaces another design is probably not the best thing. One example is the CFL compact spiral lamps. They are a nice design and great for an easy incandescent swap. However, I understand that the spiral design is a bit less than ideal for the fluorescent technology. It allows us to transition to new alternatives w/out wholesale changes. Everything has a time and place in that sense.
There are certain applications where LEDs have become pretty universal. One is for traffic signals, I believe virtually all new construction has been using them for years now. Another are those red lights you see on top of water towers or tall antennas - it's a perfect place for them, crawling up there to regularly replace bulbs is never much fun. I think the next big thing will be streetlights; there are some already in place, but their price and quality of their light aren't where they need to be yet for them to be popular.
LED street lights are FAST becoming mainstream. Color rendering is right on ... far superior to the HID coventional. Better light distribution as well. Cost still a bit high, but when you consider the longer term cost AND the energy savings, it's almost not worth discussing (although it still really is). I've purchased some pole lights and am in the process of purchasing another brand for other applications. LED is a good technology. While still somewhat 'new', it is a rapidly improving product that we will all see some significant advnaces in very soon (months, not years).
Don't set this technology on the shelf too long for future 'possibilities'. Many municipalities have switched their street lights already and see significant benefits.
On CBC Radio, Monday they were interviewing a fellow from Saskatoon SK. They have built a big gas station and used LED'S for the lighting under the canopy. They claim is is a very nice light and the cost to run will be paid back very soon.I also read some place mosquito's can't pick up LED light. Maybe end the moth beating it'self to death buy bashing it's head into the light?