An engineering firm I hired is about to try and put a property lien against my 5 acres of undeveloped property in the Columbia Gorge Scenic Area of Oregon. I am interested in what comments some of you might have on this.
I have a prepaid legal plan and contacted a lawyer through them, not a lot of local lawyers in the plan. The lawyer does not seem particularly enthused about doing it as he indicated that the plan doesn’t actually pay all that well.
I have been trying to build on my place for six years. I have had four site plans approved – on the first, while they approved it, they made some suggestions that I incorporated but had to get a new approval. That site plan lapsed as I was unaware that there was a one year limit and submitted engineered building plan about ten days too late and was told that I had to start over. I resubmitted the plan only to be told that there were additional restrictions and that I had to move all the buildings away from the back of the property (the previous revision was because they had told me that I should move the buildings to back…) I resubmitted the plan only to have the planner erroneously approve one of the previous plans again, a plan which did not meet the most recent requirements. The planning agency then sat on the corrected site plan for about nine months, but eventually approved it.
During the time that the agency was sitting on the plan, I recalculated my expected costs and found out that during the three years since I first started, costs for concrete, steel, and electrical wire had increased significantly and I no longer had enough available cash to build. I thus decided that while I was waiting for the agency to approve the plan, I would fix up a house that I had been renting in Calif. and sell it to raise the needed cash.
When the site plan was finally approved, I worked with an architect who had said he would work hourly but after a while decided that he would only do it for a fixed fee of $18,000 for a 600 sq ft artist studio for which I had already done the drawings and spec’ed the materials. I then decided to do the drawings myself (in DesignCAD) and get a structural engineer. Being in Calif. and being deaf did not lend it self to rapidly finding someone, particularly when many people do not respond to email. I finally found a small firm in mid-May, 2007, which was suggested by the company that supplied my steel shop building.
In the initial discussions, I indicated that I had a firm deadline of the following February 13th when the site plan expired, but that I wanted the materials submitted for a building permit as soon as possible so that I could start work on the artist studio which would serve as my residence while I constructed the other four buildings.
The firm was retained to do the finished drafting and engineering on three buildings: An artist studio of 20’x30′ over a same sized garage and would be constructed out of ICFs with concrete floors and a concrete roof which was to support a “green roof”. A simple 24’x24′ concrete block on slab garage, with a convention low sloped roof spec’ed at 50 lb/sq. ft. (for a green roof) and a 24’x32′ woodworking shop which was simply a longer version of the garage with only minor changes in the door placements and an additional window. They were also to do an engineering upgrade on a slab for a 30’x40′ welding shop which was engineered by a different firm but the slab needed to be upgraded as I was adding an automotive hoist to the shop. The previous engineering for the slab had run $500.
I was told that the engineering and the drawings could be done in 16 weeks which would allow me to start construction around the middle to end of September and allow me to get some work done prior to the onset of rains and freezing condition which usually hit around the end of November (OK, so I’m a wimp when it comes to working in lousy conditions.)
The architect that I had dealt with had received an estimate from his structural engineer for the artist studio of $2,000 for the engineering alone. I suggested to the newly hired engineering firm that the fee be $3000 for the three buildings, figuring that I would low ball it and they would counter, which they did. They said the price of the artist studio would be about $3000 and sent me an agreement that I signed stating that engineering work would be $95 and hour and drafting $45/hr with an estimate of $3000 for the artist studio.
I submitted DesignCAD drawings of each building showing the specific locations and sizes of widows, doors, and other features such the height of the structures and the number of courses of block on the garage and woodworking shop.
I returned to California to continue to work on the house down there until the building permits were issued and I would return to Oregon while turning over the Calif house to my realtor and his crew to finish (much more expensive then doing it myself, however.) The sixteen weeks came and went with no indication that any work had been done. I received an email saying that the estimate on the artist studio had been revised and it would be closer to $6000. I was desperate to get things going so I agreed, even though I thought that it was too high a price.
After the initial deadline was passed, I was given a new completion date of the first week in November. That was also no met. The drawings were finally delivered to the agency for building permit approval on December 13th. I was notified on Dec. 20th that I had not met various conditions regarding my property and the permit application would not be processed. However, the conditions were not listed in the document approving the site plan that I received and I was never told of the existence of the conditions until the request for the building permits was rejected. The planner rather heatedly said she mailed them but there was not such list in the envelope that I received (this was the same planner that approved the wrong plan previously.) There were no similar lists of conditions to met appended to any of the previous three site plans that had been approved. There is no way I would have ignored such a list if I had seen it.
Most of the conditions could have easily been met by the Feb. 13th deadline except for a couple – building the 130′ driveway to the house that was to be built at some point in the future, moving a dead 45′ manlift and a couple of other pieces of equipment I would be using during the construction, putting in a 3000 gallon fire reservoir, and demolishing a 500 sq ft storage building filled with shelving and materials that were to go into the new shop. By the time I could begin work in late December, the ground was extremely muddy and trying to move equipment around the site would have done extensive damage to the site as well as probably mired the equipment in the mud. So I gave up and decided to try again.
Unfortunately, the zoning requirements changed over the past year and the buildings that were engineered are no longer allowed. Where as I had four buildings, only a main house and a single shop building of up to 1500 sq ft are now allowed. The plans for the artist studio, separate garage, and woodworking shop are now worthless to me.
In mid-February, I received the final bill from the structural engineering firm. It was for $18,300. This was about twice what I had expected to pay. I have written them saying I feel that they were in breech of contract by not meeting either their original deadline of 16 weeks or the second deadline of early November. If either of these dates had been met, I probably could have had time to meet the conditions for approval of the building permit. I also indicated that I felt the charges were excessive as we had agreed upon $6000 for the artist studio (despite the other estimates for much less) and that the comparables that I found for the garage and the woodworking shop were around $1500 to $2000 each. According to the my lawyer who has now contacted them, the engineering firm is submitting a property lien for non-payment for their services. I paid them $6000 initially. The lawyer thinks the firm might accept an additional $8000 to $10000 offer. The other options are to offer less, take them to court over the lien, or to pay under protest and sue for breach of contract.
How much would you pay a firm that missed deadlines with the result that the finished product was worthless?
(Yeah, I was probably dumb for not getting the prices nailed down more completely – but the engineer seemed like such a nice guy and this is the way I have done things for my 60+ years and I really haven’t had a problem like this before…)
Replies
I'd find a real attorney - not the legal plan one. The plan one might be able to steer you in the right direction.
The first thing you need is the attorney's opinion as to whether you can prevail. To do this, the attorney needs to be practiced in this specific sort of law - and not just simply read the paperwork.
Why? Because engineers are famous for thinking that engineer school also made them doctors, lawyers, accountants ... and superior to tradesmen, customers, and anyone else. This leads to your advantage ...
You see, the engineer is likely to have written the documents himself, inventing the law as he went along. That means the paperwork is likely full of provisions that are contrary to established doctrine, or are otherwise unenforceable. Or, they may simply be so one-sided that no court will honor them.
Who pissed in your Wheaties?
Impossible is an opinion.
Oh, it's nothing personal .... I've just been around far too many engineer types. Not that it matters - I could be the most embittered, petty, vindictive person - and the points I raised would still be valid. I neglected to mention another favorite engineers' trick: cribbing from a handbook. The trouble is, when you use a stock legal form, it doesn't always work in your situation. Laws vary, etc ... so a 'standard' form (no matter how impeccable the source) will typically need to be modified. I have no idea as to the merits of out OP's situation. It is - despite whatever story he has told - that he's in the wrong. After all, every story has two sides to it. Since he mentioned an engineer was on the other side of the issue .... well, I just pointed out the most likely areas where he's likely to find leverage.
Or, should I say, where his lawyer will likely find leverage. If you think I'm harsh on engineers .... just get me going on lawyers :D
Can you say "most" or "some" next time so you don't cast all of us engineers in a bad light. ;)
Impossible is an opinion.
Point taken :D
I'll preface this by saying I work with a great engineer. And seeing as how he also passes my name / number out as a "preferred contractor" I like him even more.
that said ...
"Why? Because engineers are famous for thinking that engineer school also made them doctors, lawyers, accountants ... and superior to tradesmen, customers, and anyone else."
That's freaking fantastic!
I tell my wife much the same after most every meeting with a potential client who's also an engineer. A phrase I'm trying to coin ...
"he has the people skills of an engineer" ... or words to that effect.
doesn't describe my PE ... but that's why I use and refer him.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
in India the ones who flunk out of engineer school become doctors and dentists and lawyers and such, in that culture it is clear who is top dog.
it may be that here in our culture engineers aren't such a highly respected position as other less intellectualy challenging professions.
had a friend who was the administration manager of lawrence livermore rad lab, kind of like a city manager but for the lab facility not a city. he had these personality tests/quizzes that he gave to all his friends and family that he had brought home from work, it was part of an attempt to give the engineers a little insight as to what pompous azzes a lot of them were, in the hopes that they might all get along a little better.
it was funny because when i took the test my "thinking" was off the scale. he said "i have never seen a score like this, and i deal with the preeminent genius's of our time, how is it a construction worker thinks so much?" my responce was "well i have to think about what i am doing to be efficient. the work is very hard so you are highly motivated to work smart, plus if i get it wrong i have to fix it"
i'd be willing to bet a lot of the breaktime types they're thinking is off the scale as well. no lack of mental energy here.
casey......... man..
i think i'd just shoot myself
.. i like renos advice about a real lawyer
and i think i'd put a contract out on the planning agency and the planner
Edited 7/6/2008 6:28 pm ET by MikeSmith
thats not very nice, you usually give such good advice but shoot yourself...tsk tsk tsk
listen to me casey, pay no attention to mike. if your gonna shoot anybody start with the engineer, then work your way through the planning dept, don't forget a pot shot at the pre paid attorney, last shoot yourself
And don't mention anti-freeze!
Forrest
no, that would be inhumane. not merciful like a nice quick bullet.
and speaking of antifreeze, take a look at this and see if you can come up with something.
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=106709.8
I like the idea of electrifying the entire car to Taser-voltage. Then you could drive over him without knowing he was there.
Forrest
ok, i guess we could make that look like an accident. if people realize its booby trapped there could be trouble. you can do better than that.
Ah, such sure fire advice - I knew I could count on all of you to let me know exactly what I should do to get out of this mess with at least enough to buy a gallon of diesel.Unfortunately, my experience with lawyers has been about as good as my experience with planners. I was working in Oregon but needed some legal assistance for my Calif. house. Good old Chase Manhattan Bank was charging me about $200 a month more escrow than they should have. I wrote on the bank's analysts who admitted that they were in violation of California and Federal banking laws. She told me what the correct figure was, so I started paying that amount. Big mistake, since the amount did not agree with the statement amount, they started rejecting my payment checks. Unfortunately, the checks did not arrive back in my mailbox until four months later. In the meantime they started foreclosure action against me, so I got a recommendation for a California lawyer from a local Portland lawyer. Since I am deaf I had to do things by email. First email was general pleasantries as we both at U.C. Berkeley at the same time, second email was his response to my sending him a one page summary of my problem, simply saying that was the type of thing he could do, third email was him saying that they needed to do a onflict of interest check; fourth email was saying he would take the case. At the same time as he said he would take the case, he sent a bill for $867 - no legal assistance had been given or even any legal advice. Fortunately, the firm had an office in Portland and when I told them what had transpired, they immediately cancelled the bill. Chase Manhattan offered to pay me $3,000 to drop any legal action but refused to remove the notice of foreclosure from my credit rating because they said they had actually sent it so they couldn't say they didn't. I went to small claims court, but the court said they could only grant money damages, not the clearing of credit reports. I think the seven years should be up on it sometime this fall. My lesson - pay the bank whatever they ask and then immediately sue rather than trying to work things out first. Lotza fun
hey at least we kept it bumped up at the top while hijacking the thread for senseless chatter, also it can be very important to have a laugh at times like these, thats what keeps you from shooting yourself, or someone else.
you need a good lawyer. i don't know how to find a good lawyer, but thats what you need.
i heard they were replacing lab rats with lawyers,
the lab techs don't get as attatched to lawyers as they do rats,
lawyers are easier to find than rats,
and there are some things the rats just won't do.
good luck casey, it can't get any worse.
hey, i got an idea, check with nolo press in berkeley for lawyer reccomendations, i would also advise them of the hearing impairment, although i know some people don't like to do that. my wife absolutely hates it when i tell anybody, she likes to go it on her own, no special consideration.
sorry i couldn't be more help.
I just want to know the name of the Engineering firm so i never do business with them!
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
LOL Had an ET buddy when I was in the navy who did that , got busted by two of Philadelphia's finest when one of them went to put a parking ticket on the car late one night. Not a pretty sight to see.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Don't know anything about the legal aspects of this stuff, but the prices you are giving just amaze me for the types of projects you describe... BTW - is there something really unusual about these buildings (other than the green roof) like maybe they are perched on a cliff or something...?
Granted I have no idea of the cost of living in that part of Oregon (or anywhere in Oregon) but here in NC I get a house plan engineered for $.12 an unheated sq ft and $.25 a heated sq ft meaning that a 2000 sq ft house with a garage and a front porch might be around 6 or 700 bucks... Usually takes a few weeks...
The artist studio is (was to be) a simple design with one wall of the artist studio with large windows. The walls were to be constructed of Faswall ICFs (they are a mix of woodchips and cement rather than polystyrene), the roof and the first floor were to be concrete using Lite-Deck polystyrene forms. The garage/basement was to have fill on 3 1/2 sides. It was not your standard building but it certainly wasn't fancy and all of the engineering details for the Faswall and the Lite-Deck are available on their websites. I figured I would have to pay a little bit for the engineers to educate themselves with these materials, but no where near as much as they ended up charging me. The garage and woodworking shop were to be concrete blocks that were to be dry stacked but otherwise standard concrete filled with rebar as required. These were entirely above ground with no fill behind the walls. The roofs of these two ended up being plywood sheathing and sistered 2x12s under the green roof. I had originally wanted Lite-Deck roofs but they told me it would be a lot more expensive to build - although no specific dollar figures were mentioned. As I mentioned, a previous quote that an architect provided from his structural engineer for the artist studio was $2000. Unfortunately, I was not able to get quotes for the other buildings, although I think the Internet pricing I gave would hold for this type of structure. A roof loading of 50 lb/sq.ft. should not be that unusual.
Sounds like the high engineering fees are but another wonderful benefit of alternative construction....
Although i live in OR im on the coast but am very aware they just plain dont want anyone building there.
Shouda woudas dont count but im sorry you did not get something up when you had the chance. Im sorry your deaf .
I have seen where there not going to go out of there way too if your from CAL.
Its just going to get tougher to build there
i was thinking that myself, they don't want any more californicating there than they already have, and are dragging their feet all the way.
it will be a tough road to hoe.
casey you might try to contact this person for help, try contacting mother earth news and see if you can leave a message for her. i can't give you her e-mail, she would never speak to me again. she is my aunt.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Nature-Community/2004-04-01/Build-Timber-Frame-House.aspx
I was born and raised in this town and I do know quite a few of the old timers around town. I did spend about half of my career in California but have been back here for about 15 years. My mother was born here 94 years ago and still runs a small photo gallery. She knows an amazing number of people in the area.The rules in the Columbia Gorge Scenic Area have progressively tightened since I first started this process some 7 years ago. The original rules were set by Congress in the act that created the Columbia Gorge Scenic Area but the subsequent changes have been by local agencies. I agree with keeping the Gorge nice, but the area that I chose is basically an in-fill construction in a built up area and I am surrounded by small lots with house trailers and modular homes. I would have had far less trouble if I wanted to tow a tacky modular home on the site rather than building a fire resistant building that blended with the surroundings...
Casey, you have a couple issues you need to address here.
Regarding the engineer, contact an attorney to start with. To find the best one that suits your needs, contact the local Bar in the Oregon county that this took place in. Specificallty an attorney that deals with contracts and construction.
Ask the attorney for an hour of his time to consult with him to see where you stand with this issue and provide him with the timeline of your discussions and emails with the engineer as well as the contracts that you signed.
Not knowing how the contract is written or the terms, I think it would be difficult for anyone in this forum to know how to answer you.
Personally I have always gotten legal review of my contracts prior to my signing. You may have wanted to use your legal plan in this case.
Now regarding the planning commission, are you having to deal with the Columbia River Gorge Commision? I haven't done work down that away, but I have heard rumors. Your best bet maybe trying to appeal the ruling by the planning commission. Better yet, you may even go to the supervisor of the person that you have been having issues with. May work, but also may screw you.
And you also have the option of contacting a lawyer to assist you with having to deal with the planning commission. I am quite certain that you aren't the only one being pinched by the planning commission down there. So there maybe some lawyers that know how to work the planning commission to your benefit.
Best of luck
Impossible is an opinion.
I was thinking the same thing Engineerguy. There was a city back in MI that screwed with the developers too much. Eventually, one developer fought back and won a very large settlement. I don't remember the dollar figure but it was above 25 million. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
The Director of Planning was the guy who decided that he would not give me an extension when he said I applied for a building permit ten days late. He also told me to move the buildings to be the back of my property for my next application, then told me to move them 100 feet from the back of my property, which required a new application, and then I was told this was mistaken and I would need to make a new application moving the buildings to the back of the property. He has been more accomodating than the planner I was assigned, however. I have discussed my situation with the chief county administrator, called the County Judge in Wasco County. He was supposed to get back to me but didn't and now he is off for about six weeks for cherry harvest. Unfortunately, the engeering firm has reportedly submitted papers to put a property lien on my place, so I don't know how long I have to figure things out before I end up in court.
I have only talked with one person from the Gorge Commission and she was a temporary employee who came out to walk my property. Before that, however, I was notified that a member of the Gorge Commission planned to sue me over my site proposal because I had specified a building height of 24 feet, this was despite the zoning saying 34 feet was allowed. He left some months later and the matter was dropped. All of this was relayed through the planner at the Wasco County Planning office, however. As I said previously, my previous experiences with lawyers was a lot more negative than my dealings with other folks, so I tended to not go the legal route, probably a mistake in this case.The contract was pretty non-specific. It was just about a paragraph. It just said that I would pay $95 per hour of engineering time and (I don't remember the specific amount) about $65/hr for drafting time. It specified an estimate of $3000. All of the meetings and conferences had discussed all three of the buildings, however, when I went back and read the working agreement, it did specify only the artist studio and did not mention any of the other structures.
If you have a contract for $x per hour, then that's what you have to pay. An estimate is only that.
Based on your posts so far, you seem to be willing to rely on hopes, prayers, third party interpretations of what other people say, and a lot of fumes (as exemplified by your dealings with a bank, where you took it upon yourself to pay 'what they should have charged').
You either need good legal advice, or a big cup of wake-the-(&*^-up. You choose. It's your life, not ours.
Thinking of what Renoseinke was saying, your best solution to solve the issue with the engineer is to go to the Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying.
Here is the contact site: http://www.oregon.gov/OSBEELS/law_enforcement.shtml
If you think that the engineer is taking you for a ride and is unethical, go that route.
I would still contact a lawyer in the construction/contract field, but by also contacting the Board, you will also put pressure on the engineer to rethink what he is doing. Besides, by contacting the Board, they will start their own investigation into the allegations to see what remedies are just. And in this case, if the engineer is in the wrong, could mean being required to take ethic classes, some form of censure, or even loss of his license.
Personally, if he is a bad apple, I would prefer that he is kicked out of the profession altogether. But let the Board and its investigatiors do their job.
Impossible is an opinion.
I'm of the opinion that when you need an engineer, you need an engineer. When you need a doctor, you need a doctor.
You need a lawyer. Go get a real one. I think there's about 90% of this story left untold, but you're the one who needs the legal advice, the rest of us are bystanders.
well said harry, much better advice than shoot yourself, or shoot others then yourself.
i think you are right, time to feed the lawyers.
i think i'll stick with original adviseMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
brutal mike, brutal.
Although this was just once i wonder..... One time i needed a lawyer but could not use mine as it was a conflict of interest for him.
I thought i would hire an out of town lawyer but was told the judge would not be to happy to see a big city lawyer come in .
I really dont know if it works that way but i sure got the impression it did
The good ole boy network certainly does have some effect on local proceedings. When you lose the case, and take it to the appeals court, it might not matter so much. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
If I were an engineer this whole project would fire off my warning indicator light!
Sorry, but if you are the GC and don't stay on top of local changes it's not the engineers fault. Typically, once plans are approved it matters not what changes take place since your plans are allowed to be built as drawn.
If the date the plans had to be done was critical it should be listed inthe contract as such, which it probably wasn't. Completion dates are also estimates and not written in stone, unless you write them in stone.
If the engineer worked the hours they are claiming then you should pay the piper.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.