my building official told me there was a recent Supreme Court decision to the effect that
lettering and logos on a truck are not “signs” and therefore not subject to Zoning or deed restrictions
i haven’t been able to find a citation for this decision
anyone know of this or similar ?
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Replies
Me thinks the Supreme Court must be bored if they're spending their time on such mundane topics.......
it leaves the realm of mundane when homeowner associations decide that
trucks are signs
and can no longer be parked on private propertyMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Here in Bakersfield the city has decided that a truck with signs, lumber rack, or even a ladder on top is a commercial vehicle and cannot be parked overnight in a residential zone by a business owner.
Mind you, an employee can park a van or truck with logos and ladders all over it, that's OK. But a small business owner (like myself) can't park in his own driveway if his truck has a rack on top, or a sign on the side.
Thankfully they don't enforce it, unless someone calls and complains. View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
well...
after 20 years...
.. someone either called and complained, or the new board took it on themselves to attempt to enforce it
before we bought in, i went over the deed restrictions with the developer and he assured me that my pickup was not a commercial vehicle
i just went to the BI 's office again and he said the truck / sign issue was decided by the Rhode Island Supreme Court, not the USSC.. so
i'll narrow my search
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
State HOA laws obviously vary, but there is usually a prescriptive period (statue of limitations) on violations.
In La. it's 2 years. If legal action hasn't been initiated then the violation is accepted.
Just another avenue of approach if your SC ruling doesn't pan out.
IMO and experience, members of HOA boards are a bunch of frustrated, power hungry ex hall monitors...... a necessary evil at times
Good Luck
Ray
Mike,
In our area its a County Ordinance enforced locally not by state law. Maybe the BO was referring to that?
And I forgot to add its based on vehicle size and not the aspect of lettering. i.e. a lettered half ton is OK...a lettered dually is not.
Mike
Edited 11/15/2008 9:12 pm ET by Oak River Mike
thanks... all ours says is ....."no commercial vehicle"....with no definition of what a "commercial vehicle " is
so for 20 years i was ok.... now, i'm not....
human nature... zoning boards, planning boards, conservation commissions, homeowner association boards.... they all seem to wind up with people who want to reinterpret the rules to exert as much control as possible...
the people who tend to interpret rules in a reasonable manner do not want to be on these boardsMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, is your truck personally owned or owned by the corp?
owned by the corp....
RI has lots of registration classificationsmine is type 02 -Commercialthere are about 5 other pickups in the subdivision... all type 02-Commercial...including one registered to the husband of the President of the Associationthere are two other designations that pickups get..... "combination" and "suburban"... i have no idea how one gets those.... but i really don't want to have to play a gamei go thru the tolls with the "passenger vehicles "anyone know typical definitions of "commercial vehicles" ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If it were personally owned, could it be commercial?
Gonna be different in every state for the details, but in general a commercial vehicle can do things a passenger car can't--like park in a 'loading zone'--and is forbidden from driving on 'No Commercial Traffic' parkways.
Years ago I got a ticket from an LI State Parkway trooper for driving a NYC taxicab on the Northern State Parkway with an advertising sign on the roof. A taxi can normally use any road it likes...but the ad on the roof made it a 'commercial vehicle' as far as that judge was concerned. $200 but no 'moving violation' points against my insurance premium calculation.
I also once parked the old truck in a 'Trucks Only Loading Zone' opposite a big hotel while I delivered some items I'd fabricated in the shop. Town clown dropped a $150 parking ticket on it; claimed it wasn't a truck bec' I had it registered as a class V personal vehicle, and I hadda pay up or get lic & reggie suspended.
My guess is, your reggie is called 'commercial' and you've got a business sign on the door and the truck is owned by a corporation, so you're not gonna be able to say it's not a commercial vehicle. Instead you're gonna have to challenge the HOA by-law's validity or the 'selective enforcement' they've indulged in over the last 20-odd years.
Or, park it in the garage where no one can see it.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
what they are hanging their hat on is:my pickup (same as theirs ), is different because mine has "signs" on itso...they combine para. 4..... "no commercial vehicles"with para. 6 ...."no signs "...well.... the BI told me here was a court case that decided that lettering /logos on a truck is not a "sign"...but of course he can't remember where he saw it.if i can find that citation..i can probably get them to back offMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
magentic signs
Could you slap on a magnetic sign that says; "This is not a commercial vehicle?"
Edited 11/16/2008 11:45 am ET by smslaw
Following up on the prior post - have magnetic sign material , large enough to cover your truck signage, painted your trucks color to put on before you drive home. Take them off again when you drive to the job the following day .
walter...... lot's of people have suggested that..... but how lame would that be ?
it would probably satisfy the board.... but i don't see how they can decide to interpret this differently after 20 yearsMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'd be inclined to do that so I could avoid the hassles of meetings and lawyers fees - and concentrate on my business -- but yes it's lame, lame as he**
Declare your truck as Grandfathered in, or eminant domain, if that don't work, burn em out!Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Mike,
Extend your drive around the corner of the house. Park out of sight. Post no trespassing signs. Sue anyone who says they see your truck parked on your property because they had to walk up to see it. BI's and code enforcement (here, anyhow) tell me they can't go past the right-of-way to snoop.
I lived in a townhouse with a HOA. A neighbor had a beef with my truck as well. It was a pickup with ladder racks and magnetic signs. What I did was simply call the HOA and tell them that although it was my work vehicle, it was also my personal vehicle. If I had a ten wheeler, I would accept their gripe, but since I pay my assoc. fee from the money created by this vehicle they can stick it in their @$$. Not a word since.
Dustin
hah,hah,hah....lemme see
dear board association ...
stick it in your ear
they use my dues to hire a lawyer to sue me... if they lose, they have a special assessment on all members...
one really has to be on firm ground if one wants to fight this
but i do appreciate the sentiment
hey... i was the big winner in wolfman today... won $5..how you hittin 'em ?
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/16/2008 10:23 pm ET by MikeSmith
granted, it was ten or so years ago. But that was the discussion we had.
it worked....it was satisfying.... what's not to like
wish it would work in this caseMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The argument I made was that I work for myself, it's not like I hop in the Volvo to do family stuff when I change my clothes. My wife has her vehicle and I have mine, when my kids need to go to soccer I get them there, after all, I'm the coach. The fact that I drive a pickup that advertises my business is a non issue because it is my sole vehicle. They sent fines out, I disputed them month after month. HOA's are a PIA unless you're in your retirement years and don't care about much. Argue it and you will win. Show your potfolio and explain who you are, there are only about 1,000 people here (I think it's more, but I don't want your head to swell) that would vouch for you. If you ran a shop from there it would be different. I never stored equipment at my place but I still got hassled, and when I did, I won...
Does your HOA have any real teeth? Are they willing to take you to court over it?
Of all the things to worry about... I can't believe reasonable people would be pushing this hard after as you say 20 years....
Hope it works out for you
I'd run a few searches through Google to see what turns up on that citation; if you come up dry that way try searching the state appeals/supreme court database.
Failing that, you might have to hire someone who knows more about legal research than either you or me. Unless you can get Shaggy to come outta the woodwork, LOL....
You might also threaten the HOA with a Federal lawsuit claiming that their deed restriction infringes on your First Amendment rights of free speech.
Actually, it might be more fun to hit them with a lawsuit that challenges their very existence. Seems to me a HOA that passes 'laws' and collects obligatory dues ('taxes') is acting like a government without getting Royal Assent to do so (or whatever the equivalent of Royal Assent is down there in the breakaway colonies...).
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
we have a "Right to work" law here, where nobody can infringed on you to stop you from working, Cannot hold your tools as loans.etc
One of the things I've always admired about the South....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Palisades, and most New York State parkways have " No Truck" signs.
Now to me that always meant no commercial trucks.
Turns out that on the palisades parkway it means NOTHING with an open bed.
Fought it in court. Had the jusge read me the law word for word.
Paid $120
I got nailed cutting through the Great Smokies Nat. Park in a truck that was commercial registerd. Low on fuel and it was my only choice ( bad planning in Pigeon Forge) STILL ran out of gas, and had to use the chainsaw gas to limp out of the Park back to civilization. 50 dollar fine was the least of my problems that day.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
on the palisades parkway it means NOTHING with an open bed.
So would that mean a sport pickup with no cap on it wouldn't pass, even tho registered as a private passenger vehicle?
How about if it had a tonneau cover? Would a soft cover not be allowed while a hard-top fiberglass job on hinges be okay? I mean, where does their definition of 'open bed' start and stop?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Restricted Hoititoity Country Club Sub div we lived in in KS you could not even park your Harley Edition 55K f-150 overnight in your driveway, not even supposed to leave a car out overnight.For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
You must havbe lived on a golf course in Mission Hills.....
Actually Tallgrass in Wichita. It may have been extreme but it sure kept property values up. The twin home plan I bought for 140k has been selling for 250k. They did relax on the parking cars overnight, kind of hard if you have more than two cars.
Here in hillbilly land they cry "we don't need no d*** zoning" then get up in arms when somebody wants to put in a asphalt plant down the road. I believe it is code here that you cannot build a nice house unless there is at least a doublewide within view.For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
I've driven by Tallgrass on bizness a few years ago but since my car wasn't German made didn't feel comfortable stopping there. I live in Overland Park now....the poor northern part near Wyandotte county and the neighbor was burning his leaves yesterday but who's gonna call the cops? No homeowners association here....
IT was not all that exclusive. Tallgrass is the club in the middle of a square mile development. I never did count but think there areabout 15 sub-divs there with two of the corners commercial and one corner a church. The real dollars are just south in the old Wilson farm area. Then there is Charles Koch with his quarter section just south of that.
For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Here in hillbilly land they cry "we don't need no d*** zoning" then get up in arms when somebody wants to put in a asphalt plant down the road. I believe it is code here that you cannot build a nice house unless there is at least a doublewide within view.
You sure you don't live in Iredell Co.?
Got one he!! of a familiar ring to it.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
McDowell, just east of Asheville. For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
It's actually a huge issue - with both first amendment and commercial implications.People don't spend the $$ necessary to get to the Supreme Court for (and the Court won't spend its time on) minutia.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
i've spent days researching this now... and i have no GOOD citations, but a lot of insitemost jurisdictions realize that they don't want everything to be defied as a "commercial vehicle" it would make life hell for everyone.... most seem to define it as 10,001 lb. gross vehicle weightso F150's don't fir that same thing with signs... no citation yet.. but if lettering on a vehicle constitutes a "sign" then all of those vehicles become violations of most zoning laws...
because " signs " are very heavily regulatedso.. based on those two arguements.. i find it hard to think that the courts would rule that my F150 is a commercial vehicle , absent any defintition in our deed restrictionsnor do i think they would want to rule that my vehicle logo constitutes a "sign" but who , knows.. i certainly don't want to go thru the court process to find out...
but... if the board decides to spend our collective moeny to sue me... i don't see what choice i havei find it strange that these two question aren't fully defined by previous court decisions .... ?????Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
2 things to consider Mike.
1) Even without your Mike Smith & Associates sign on your truck--it almost Certainley has a "sign" from FORD--and equally certain it has a "sign" advertising the dealership you bought it from-----so why are all your neighbors allowed to have "signs" on THEIR vehicles-but not you?2)-------wouldn't you really rather just build a nice 2-3 truck garage with at least 8ft. overhead doors so your trucks with ladder racks can fit inside???- make it a 2 story garage with a nice loft/office space or apartment up stairs????? I am guessing somebody new moved in the neighborhood and is upset to be living near a lowly carpenter?????? how about something like a zoning variance---signed by your properties abutters and the abutters abutters????????
good Luck, Stephen
Stephen... i know what touched this off...
about 3 years ago , someone built a house across the street from the then, president of the association.... they proceeded to make provisions to park a 45' motor home in the front side yard..... apparently planning on screening it with arbor vitae
well.... the presidents house looked right across this and his " waterview " beyond now had a 45' motorhome in it
"Conditions and restrictions
article 6: No commercial vehicles shall be parked or garaged on a lot. Boats , trailers, sport campers and similar conveyances shall be stored in an inconspicuous place on a lot but not closer to a street than the building set back line. ""
so... they negotiated and finally when that fell thru, the Association took them to court and won.
Now they feel that they have to enforce that paragraph with the rest of the Owners and they think that i am in violation.Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You seem to run in to a lot of problems when "waterfront views" are obstructed. First "Adverse Conditions", not this.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Mike,
I think you're right that the HOA is trying to avoid getting hit with a 'selective enforcement' countersuit by the owner of that motorhome.
But trying to fiddle around with the definition of a commercial vehicle doesn't strike me as a winner. I think your best bet is gonna be the 'conspicuous and notorious' stuff Shaggy was telling us about at the Fest a few years ago. IIRC, he explained that if you do something you're not supposed to do, but do it 'conspicuously and notoriously' for a very long time and no AHJ ever calls you on it, you should be in the clear.
So...since you said you've been parking your truck on your lot for what, 20 years?, and nobody every complained, it's a little late now for them to start bitching.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
good point ...and it's one of the one's we're making in our responseMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Why do you think a company's large box truck with the big company logo on the side is always parked way out at the edge of the parking lot, 300' from the store, adjacent to a highly travelled road?
Runnerguy
I came up with a couple of mentions, but nothing specifically related to truck signage.
The Supremes declined to review a lower court's ruling on pole signage:
(Quick overview) http://www.signs.org/Newsroom/PRdetail.cfm?ItemNumber=2021&mnItemNumber=516&snItemNumber=604
(Lower court's ruling) http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:RLErDzuH8GoJ:caselaw.findlaw.com/data2/circs/9th/0435416P.pdf+supreme+court+GK+Travel,+Ltd&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a
Only other thing I saw was an actual decision from 94 related to whether a city could restrict the signage (in this case political) placed on one's own property.
http://law.jrank.org/pages/12691/Ladue-v-Gilleo.html
View Image
Mike:
These are just my favorite kinds of problems we face. If you can't park your truck in your own driveway, you'll be forced to rent parking space somewhere else and pay the cost of running back and forth to your truck. Then when you are forced to pass along this cost of doing business to your customers, you'll get complaints about your high prices!
I have crankypants this morning anyway, after just paying for my insurance installment and for renewing my home improvement license to the state of New Jersey. Then, I glance over and see on my desk the "small entity compliance guide" for lead paint from the EPA still waiting for my review. Who knows what that will cost me.
Meanwhile, when I go to buy materials these days, I see I'm the only guy there with a commercial vehicle and a business name on the side. Everybody else is doing business off the books, without insurance or license, usually for cash. Maybe I could sleep better at night knowing I'm doing it legit, except that I have hunger pangs because these illegally run "contractors" are stealing potential business from me on price alone. At least I'm not bitter about it...
John
Meanwhile, when I go to buy materials these days, I see I'm the only guy there with a commercial vehicle and a business name on the side. Everybody else is doing business off the books, without insurance or license, usually for cash.
A lot of guys in your area also just plain got tired of the harrasment of people who have Commercial plates on their trucks and now choose to register them private.
And lot of guys think that just having workmans comp and liability is good enough.
Most don't know enough to knwo that they could get bound up if something happens with a truck being used for business but registered privately.
A few of my friends are in North and Central western N.J, all have huge business policies but their trucks are registered private.
Makes no sense to me.
privately registered vehiles here save a huge quanity of money in registration, insurance and skirt the DOT regs....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I understand "Why".
I just question the risk involved.
I know the insurance carrier on my Truck WILL NOT cover any incident that rises from the commercial use of it since it's registered for private use.
A tough case to make that it wasn't being used commercially when it has ladder racks on it, al your tools in it and owner owns a business.
But none the less, I see it more and more.
a fully equiped employee to an LLC...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I take it from the context of some of your comments your home owner's association is complaining about your personal truck and the lettering on it?
Does your association have any real teeth?
As a side note, I think I might have read about this idea here.... If it becomes a bigger issue then you're willing to fight, you can get a magnetic sign made roughly the same color of your truck large enough to cover the logo, put the "sign" over the logo when you're parked at home. A hassle to be sure but manageable. I believe I read the original idea was to cover up the company signs when at a bar, I really can't recall where I read it though?
Personally I'd fight, but that's just me... It might be an issue not worth the fight.
I heard that they saw yout truck in that movie it was in and they decided you're not a good reflection on your community?
Lefty-Agitating for Truck Signs
BTW Didn't they electronically erase your sign in the movie anyhows?
Mike,
Maybe they caught wind of your new middle name !!!
What movie? That sounds like a good story.I thought Pete D. was the only one around here who was in a movie.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I was in a made for TV movie, back in the early '80s. Press me and I might talk about it. (It was a bad movie.)
oh, man.. i forgot all about that... you're absolutely right !
that's gotta be itMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike
Here's copy of Jamestown zoning rules you might already have it but I think pages 89 thru 91explain residential parking and signs. Good luck I have same problem at my condo so I use magnetic signs
View Image
thanks.... notice there is no definition of a "commercial vehicle"... there is a limit of 1 1/2 tons capacity... but that is it....
anyways... this is not a zoning issue... it is a deed restriction and homeowner association issueMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
go buy you a rusted out twenty year old smoke blowing, must blow smoke, noisey, no muffler, doors hanging off plain truck and park it in the driveway.I had one house assoc that would not let me keep a motorcycle in the garage.