I’d like to put forth a scenario, and get your comments on both what power / shop tools you would get – and whether you’d be inclined to ‘go for the best’ or if a ‘generic’ product would be fine.
I think the thread will work best if we follow a few ‘rules:’ Just list a few items per post, with a short explanation of where you think the tool can contribute. Unless it’s a unique tool, let’s try not to get too focused on “This brand” and “that model.”
Here’s the scenario: Joe Six-pack works all day at the Mill, and has never owned a home. With the real-estate meltdown, he’s seeing standing houses come on the market for less than $20K …. sometimes a lot less than $20K. We’ll assume the homes are structurally sound, but nearly a complete gut remodel (Obsolete wiring, water damage in the plasterboard, bath floors feeling spongy). Frame on slab, or maybe over a crawlspace, inadequate insulation. Joe plans to pay cash, then use his ‘rent’ money and free time to remodel this thing as he ‘camps’ in it. He might even re-arrange the floor plan.
What tools, ladders, work holders, etc., do you think he should get? Paint Sprayer? Scaffold? Table saw? Nail gun(s)? What do you advise?
Replies
for a change, I like your positive attitude.
Forgive me if I have mistaken you for the ogre that I think I'm replying to.
Tools?
He's already got the basics.
or he should give some thought to hireing out the work. If he's that handy and he's taken the plunge to buy this place, a little late now to "learn" the fix up process.
Best of luck.
Roughly in the order they should be purchased.
Hammer -- claw, at least 16 oz
Interchangeable-bit screwdriver
A couple of pairs of pliers -- one standard and one Channellock style
Medium-duty cordless drill and a modest collection of drill and screw bits
A small collection of nails and screws
A level -- 12-24"
A couple of relatively stiff putty knives, one about 1.5", one about 5"
Two "Wonder Bars" (or the equivalent), one standard size and one small
Hacksaw blade in holder (not a hacksaw frame, but just a stick handle)
Riggers bag or other tool bag to hold the above
[Throw in a 20-25 foot tape measure somewhere above]
Yeah, Joe is going to need other stuff eventually, but it's far too easy to get tied up in mulling over buying a SCMS vs air nailer kit vs MultiMaster as the next tool and overlook the essentials.
OK, continuing on --
Buy tools in the order they're needed. Demo first ...
A few larger crowbars
A shop vac
A couple of brooms and a good dustpan
A cheap circ saw that you won't mind wrecking hitting nails and cutting plaster
A speed square and a framing square
Circular saw
I'd probably opt for a good quality saw and use cheap blades for the demo work.
and for cutting plaster?
no way I'd use a circ saw or an angle grinder. To create that dust storm is ludicrous, and against the RRP rules to the max (if a pre '78 dwelling-homeowner or not. If it's a rental, doubly bad for the future tenents most likely to include young children.
Now that the beer is starting to wear off............
I would go for the best in the tool selection.
But
for someone who can count the number of times they'd use a tool, might go to the chinese haven to make their purchase..
This sort of question brings to mind the tools I started out with when I went out on my own to be a remodeler. I had worked for a GC for a long while so I was already accustomed to his level of tools and he had something for every aspect of building and remodeling it seemed. But starting out there was no way I could afford everything at that same level so I had to make some hard choices, picking and choosing quality levels. Overall, I think I did alright for the money I had. Most of my first remodeling tools served me well and I even still have a few, I upgraded many.
I had a 1-1/4 HP Craftsman router that was on loan from my FIL and a few solid steel bits. It was a loud, vibrating piece of junk that I was happy to give back when I upgrade to my Bosch 1-1/4 multiple base router kit.
My GC boss gave me a heavy old Makita 10" chop box. No compound angles but it cut base and casing fine. I think any 10" compound miter saw on the market today would be a fine choice for a beginner. Personally, I have two Makita LS1013's and would have a hard time going back to a chop saw but that's just me.
I purchased a Porter Cable "Tigersaw" and though it has been plenty abused through the years it's still my go-to reciprocating saw.
I bought a Craftsman tablesaw for $100 and I was able to produce some fine carpentry with it. It still runs but I've since upgraded and gave the Craftsman away to my dad. I sort of regret spending big bucks on my new saw (Bosch), it's nice but for most table saw tasks it works just as well as cheap Craftsman, Ryobi and Taskforce saws I have used in my past. I think for someone just starting out I would recommend a mid-level Ryobi table saw with stand.
I got a Milwaukee "tilt-lock" circular saw for christmas the year I started. It smoked out a few years back and I replaced it with the same saw.
My first major tool purchase was a Hitachi twin tank air compressor along with a Senco Frame Pro gun. Well worth it, still use both regularly, although I have purchased a second Frame Pro for helpers.
Cordless drills are a "necessary evil" if you will. They are probably my most used tools. I started with Makita 9.6V and accumulated no less than 4 of them then added a Makita 12V before donating the whole slew to charity and buying a Bosch 18V kit. If choosing today, I think I'd go with the Makita 18V Lion kit (impact driver, [stupid] hammerdrill, recip, circularsaw, and light) to start.
My old boss also loaned me some ancient Senco guns; a brad nailer, a finish nailer, and a wide crown stapler. I have since upgraded one at a time with a Makita 18ga brad nailer, a Bostich finish gun, and a Senco RN45 stapler and I am thinking about getting a second RN45.
My first ladder was a Werner 6' fiberglass and I quickly accompanied it with a 4' Werner fiberglass. These are still my two main use ladders after 10 years. These and a pair of milk crates along with a 2x10 make for a multitude of scaffolding options.
I think that covers my personal starter tools. But there are some specialty remod tools I have picked up since those days that I would recommend too.
Klein NM wire strippers make wiring much easier and Rigid Autocut copper tubing cutters are a plumbing must have in my book. For a whole house gut, I would buy a Harbor Freight Haul Master drywall lift. I borrow a friends now when I need it and I think it is better than Telepro but for a fraction of the cost. Some good quality clamps (I like Jorgensen bar clamps) are a must for remodeling alone. I would recommend having 2@48", 4@16", and 4@8" to start plus at least 4 cheap spring clamps. For batt insulation I always recommend having a second hand boning knife and for tiling/mortar/drywall mudI have a big 1/2" drill made by Rigid that works great as a paddle mixer. For duct work, I love my Malco drill powered hole circle cutter and Wiss right angle snips. I like to spend a reasonable amount for cut brushes - I have two different sized Purdy brand that keep shape great if cleaned well. I also have and recommend the Rigid "Toolbox" vacuum - it's cheap, compact, and powerful. I never understood why guys always got the giant sized shop vacs that are loud, heavy, and tip over easy.
I suppose that about covers the specifics of what I can recommend for a new remodeler. I think a basic "starter kit" for the project you presented would probably cost around $3k or so with all necessary hand tools and a few non-necessities included.
I could have gotten by much cheaper if there was Craigslist when I started. I buy a lot used now....CL, Ebay, Recon. all have been well worth it.
DC
I expect "Joe" already has
I expect "Joe" already has basic hand tools. Besides, who uses hammers anymore? Take things apart with mauls, put them together with nailguns and screws.
A full gut remodel? Since the first half of the job will be demolition, I would think that the first priorities would be security, utilities, material handling, and waste disposal.
"Security" means a job box (I prefer Jobox), a shipping container, and an alarm system. Anyone try the DeWalt alarm system?
"Utilities" means, possibly, a power pole, an owner-operated shutoff for the water, a small QUALITY generator (I like the Yamaha 900w), and some wobble-lights (actually, the fluorescent "junior" model), It can also mean heaters (look for the 'electric radiators'), vent fans, and tarps to close off openings (I like the PowerShot stapler). Don't forget the porta-potty either!
"Material Handling" means you can unload trucks, move materials, store them, and get them where you need them. It means keeping dust and mess contained (Hello, Zipwall). It's a staging area for trash before the dumpster arrives.
Finally, "waste disposal" means lots of 30-gal trash cans with wheels, a coal shovel, and a ramp to the dumpster. The day I see a site with a temporary drawbridge that is also a ramp to the dumpster, I'll know I've reached Heaven.
What a goofy scenario. If the guy is going to do this project then he must have some idea of what tools to get to fill out his current supply. If he doesn't have any tools, then I'd conclude that he's a dufus and might as well throw the $20K into the wind and forget the idea. It will be cheaper in the long run. If he's got some tools and knows what to do with them (more or less) then he just needs to go down to the local hardware and start filling up a shopping cart with anything he doesn't have. Cuz he's gonna need it soon enough. I wouldn't advise him to shop at a big box store. Go to a real lumber yard or regular tool merchant. Or shop online if necessary.
He better include a good dust respirator, gloves, a big box of trash bags, ear protection, and more than a few books on construction/remodeling.
I don't think it's a goofy scenario -- unlikely, maybe, but not impossible.
Certainly there are lots of young guys (and more than a few gals) out there who are aware that they have the basic talent and interests to do this sort of work, even though they may have little experience. (Of course, there are also a lot of, in particular, guys out there who are willing to delude themselves into believing they can be "super-DIYer", even though they can't hit the nail on their thumb with a hammer, but that's life. And they'll mostly eliminate themselves from the competition because they won't have the patience to save up a down-payment in the first place.)
So I can see someone who's young, single (or perhaps married w/o kids) and "solidly" employed who might save up much of the $20K (plus another $5-10K remodel seed money) to buy and rehab a barely habitable house. The hardest part is getting the roof and the sewer lines fixed -- after that things can be done at whatever pace is manageable by the individual.
Goofy? Not around here...
I am still in the process of building my own house. When I started I had a hammer, hand saw, screwdriver and a pair of pliers. I hadn't built anything before. Does that make me a dufus? If I was going into it blindly, maybe. but every builder (even you) started with no experience. I bought books, talked to local contractor friends and my father in law has lots of tools and experience he was willing to share. Now, after building (about 90% done) I consider myself pretty skilled. I have learned that there are a lot of "experinced contractors out there that I would not hire to build a doghouse. I have bought a LOT of tools, and have gone through this exact scenario, and I can think of a dozen friends who have done very similar projects. If you think this scenario is "goofy, you may be out of touch with current realities around the country...
"Goofy scenario?" Well, get
"Goofy scenario?" Well, get ready to see it coming to a neighborhood near you. Let's consider a few facts of life:
1) The population is getting older - which means some of those 'tiny' old houses are again attractive to couples whose kids are grown;
2) The mortgage and economic crashes mean there's a lot of vacant homes being dumped - and financing is much harder to get; and,
3) $500/ month rent vs. $10k list price ... you do the math.
I suppose the real question is: How much does a $10K house cost? It's a pretty safe bet that any house that's been forclosed on, even sat vacant, has not had necessary maintenance attended to for a long time. Time lets little problems spawn major repairs - and quick cosmetic 'repairs.'
How tight are things? I recently viewed a house, originally listed for $73K, have it's price reduced about 15%. This forclosure has had NOTHING done to help it sell ... not even a carpet cleaning or coat of paint.
I'm also seeing a population shift, as former, over-extended homeowners move into the better rentals - which means the tenants get pushed into less desireable quarters. I have even seen entire apartment complexes have a complete change of ethnic group as a result. (No politics- just a fact), This means more folks will be considering moving into these homes.
I just looked at one $5K house that appeared, from outside, to be salvageable. Looking at the inside, though, and it became clear that the sloppy shingle job was sealing a multitude of small leaks .... which meant all the attic insulation was soaked, and there were major sections of waterlogged ceiling. Add to that a questionable HVAC arrangement, and you're quickly looking at an easy $10K in basic repairs. So that wasn't a $5K house - it was a $15K house. Anyone care to speculate on the chances of getting a $10K loan on a $5K house?
I also think this topic is relevant because this forum is packed with DIY types. "DIY" means they do something else for a living - and their trades preparaion my be limited. I'll bet many here didn't know that it costs $300 to empty a 40-yd. dumpster. Or that it costs $3K to remove a big tree.
JH, that's some good feedback ...
Most of the things you still can't afford are readily rentable.
I'm not sure I can figure out where you would use the plasma cutter, full-size planer, or the CNC router.
Panel saw? Wouldn't a track saw (like the Festool setup) take it's place?
First tool "Joe" needs is
First tool "Joe" needs is information - the Home Depot 1-2-3 book is really good at explaining different common projects, describing difficulty and time. He should also pick up the Code Check books - also invaluable.
I think his best tools are the ones that provide the most flexibility, that's why I like the DeWalt recip saw with the 4 position blade clamp... plus it only costs $89.
Cordless drill and impact driver - 14V to 18V catagory
One of my favorite tools: North 7600 full face respirator. It was a pricey buy, but it really is worth it. Not only does it keep me safe from dust, it also protects my eyes at the same time AND IT NEVER FOGS! It sounds odd, but this feels more comfortable to wear than a dust mask. You can work on something overhead and not get anything in your eyes. I just wish I could wear sunglasses underneath when i used it outside.
Yep, my initial tool list should have included at least a dust mask and some safety glasses. And if he already wears prescription glasses it's a good investment to get prescription safety glasses. A trick is to buy non-prescription safety glasses that you like on the internet (under $10 for good ones) and then have prescription lenses put in them -- saves spending $100+ on safety glass frames and you get a better result.
Doesn't the North 7600 have glass frames available to install prescription lenses into?
Yes it does - only a $16 accessory IIRC.
Well, despite your usual toolistic excesses, you do bring up a good point: Joe should have either a utility trailer and semi-decent tow vehicle (eg, a mid-sized car or minivan), or some sort of pickup truck (actually smaller is probably better in many ways). Doesn't need to be a major expenditure -- a $2K rattler pickup or $500 trailer and $200 hitch on existing minivan will do the job.
I'm kinda like Joe, slowly finishing a house, although we built this one from scratch.
I've just decided to buy four or five frames of scaffold. Considering that man lifts start at around $250 per day around here, it won't take long to recoup the $600 bucks (if I buy new; used will be even less).
I've got siding, sidewall shingles, and tons of stain to brush on. I figure some scaff will be used for many days of work.
As for tool purchases, I go by one simple rule: If the cost of the tool is less than it would cost to pay someone to do the first two jobs it's needed for, I buy it. And with very few exceptions, I by good quality tools.
Since he is starting with demolition, then building, here is my list: (I will assume he has hammers, prybars, etc.) This is my starter list, but as he gets into projects he will find many other tools that he just can't live without.
-protection - hearing protection, eye protection and a good respirator mask that will take different filter cartridges for different uses. Ear muff - $30, Safety glasses - $10, respirator - $20, replacement cartridges - $7/set.
-Decent corded recip saw. I would go corded for the power, and he will be using it a lot, and recip saws eat batteries very quickly. THe Dewalt with the 4 position chuck can be found on sale for around $100, and would be a good value. Several types of blades in various lenghts will do most of his demo work.
-12 inch compound miter saw with a portable stand. A 10" might get him by, but he will alway wish he had a 12". Mine is Ryobi, and it has served me well. you can pick them up for around $200, and a stand would be an additional $150
-Cordless drill - I like the dewalt ones better, but half of my house was built before I invested in a dewalt set. We used the wifes older 18v Ryobi set. Get 4 or 5 extra batteries and an extra charger. Get a set of drill/driver bits as well.
Corded Circular saw. You can get pretty inexpensive, reliable circular saws from many brands.
Sawhorses - Either bought or built, but he will need a godd set of horses...
Clamps - I always need a clamp to hold something or th force a stud into the right position. If he will be working alone, it will be like having another set of hands for many projects.
Compressor with nailguns - Get a combo kit with the 16 ga, 18 ga nailers and the 18 ga stapler. I use mine all the time for trim and many projects, sometimes just to hold a board or sheet in place while I get the proper fasteners into it. Cost: around $300 for the porter cable. If he will be doing lots fo framing, a framing gun would be VERY nice, but he could get by without one.
Levels - a good 4 foot, 2 foot and torpedo level will do 95% of what he needs. Oh, and a plumb bob!
6 foot straight edge and a drywall square, carpenters square, 6 inch and 12 inch speed square
35 or 50 foot tape measure (I assume he already has a 16 or 25 foot one). When doing layout, it is nice to have a tape that is long enough.
25 pound boxes of torx head screws. The sizes I use most are: 2", 2.75" and 4.25"
That's a pretty good list.
I had a few more thoughts...
A ladder! A good 6 foot fiberglass ladder with a 250-300 pound rating will get the most use for interior projects on 8-10 foot ceilings. a 6 foot ladder is still light enough to move around easily and isn't so tall that you have to work to manuver it through the house. I weigh 210 lbs in my birthday suit, but after I get a tool belt, equipment and some lumber on there, it is easy to get up over 250lbs. An extension ladder would be handy if he is doing much on the exterior of the house.
Some of the "little things" can add up. A couple good utility knives, caulking gun, carpenters pencils, sharpies, chalk line, putty knives, a tool belt or two, etc. Also, for electrical, I love the 11 in one screw drivers. They have bits for phillips, slotted, small torxs and #1 and #2 square head screws, and you can take bits out to drive hex headed screws. I keep one tool belt with just electrical stuff in it (11 in one screw driver, utility knife, tape, connectors, voltage detector, wire stripper, etc.) that way when I am doing wiring, I don't have to go up and down the ladder a dozen times to get tools that I forgot to grab.
And books. Lots of books. One good plumbing book, a good electrical book and a comprehensive house building or remodeling book are very handy when you get into a project and have questions (How high should I rough-in my sink plumbing, how do I wire a 4-way switch, etc.) Look through the books in the bookstore before you buy them. Many of them don't go into enough detail or are too simplified to answer questions that come up during a job.
Work clothes... Gloves (leather for heavy stuff and 'mechanics' gloves for lighter duty) several old t-shirts, sweatshirts and caps. I like the Carhartt double front carpenters pants. They are just for work, so I don't have to worry about paint, cement, caulk or stains getting onto them. THey are also VERY tough. I am on my second pair in 4 years of building. Knee pads are also very handy once he gets to flooring. I also have a couple of Tyvex suits. I get them at the local fire and safety supply store, and they only cost about $7. THey are really nice when insulating, painting or doing something REALLY messy.
glacierfergus
.....Some of the "little things" can add up.....
Very true, especially in remodeling.
Last I documented it I have about $60k invested in tools and equipment
And I probably forgot to include many of those "little things"
DC
duh!
Where was my head? I forgot to mention THE TWO MOST IMPORTANT TOOLS FOR REMODELING!!!!!!!!!
My business card and a check book.
Joe Six-Pack should stick to grinding metal and let me do what I do.
I will surely do it BETTER and I already have all the tools that he could never afford.
DC (Dreamcatcher Design & Build)
Yes, there is a role, even for "Joe," to hire out some work to real pros. Things like major sewer work, changing the electrical service, major structural changes, and jobs that need to be done quickly (IE: replacing the roof).
The pros get the jobs because of their expertise, special equipment needs, and time demands. Every persons' skill set is different, and you must know your limitations. For example, I can do a service change easily, but my tile work is a mess.
We've danced around something REAL important: Plan your work, work your plan. Above all else, have a plan.
With that in mind, "Joe's" first efforts will be limited to nice weather (where heating and cooling are not demanding), while he 'camps' under a number of band-aid fixes. I'd say his tasks would be in this order:
1) Secure the site;
2) Close out the weather- at least temporarily;
3) Get basic utilities provided, even of the 'temporary' sort;
4) Measure, walk, and plan. This means having a table to make your plans; finally,
5)Get rid of the trash.
With those done, he can now start his demo and rebuilding.
A final thought: I occurred to me last night that such a project might see him building a 'temporary' loading dock of sorts to ease his material handling. I'm referring to his doing things like making the living-room window a temporary door, or errect a storage shed.