As operations manager, one of my primary jobs is to hire people. I read a lot of resumes.
Currently, I’m running an ad on Craigslist seeking a carpenter and also a lead carpenter.
Here’s an excerpt from a resume.
“005 – Present: At Acme Construction I worked as a construction manager supervising and overseeing, five two man crews in multiple subdivisions. My employee’s responsibilities were to make repairs to high end homes, sweep houses and subdivision beautification. I also managed other trades as to reduce the work load on the superintendents. My clients were ecstatic with my ability to design and create contemporary rooms and homes.”
This particular candidate is sending up flags to me. Overall, he’s overselling himself everywhere else in his resume. His thought process is rambling. His writing skills are weak.
Since I’m hiring a carpenter, I don’t mind the writing skills weaknesses but he’s not selling his carpentry skills there, or in any other of his paragraphs. He’s shooting for the management position everywhere.
Would you consider this good management material?
Bob’s next test date: 12/10/07
Replies
Doesn't look like a carpenter to me. The resume is focused on managment. My concern would be that he's not be happy doing the work and end up being a short-timer. people in positions "lower" than they fancy themselves capable or deserving of often end up causing trouble - I would think doubly so on a worksite.
I will take the job, but only if you give me a break on that addition!
No breaks! Here's another from the recent batch:"August 7, 2008To Whom It May Concern:This letter is to express our interest in the carpenters position in the Austin area. Based on our skills in residential and commercial fields, we are confident that we would be a great addition to your team. I have over 25 years of experience and my son has 10 years. Our resumes that highlight our ability, knowledge and expertise as trim carpenters are enclosed. During this time, we worked as a team with several self-employed contractors, and we were able to succeed, save time and money along with focusing on quality work."Okay...does anyone else here feel like the two for one resume is a bad idea LOL? This guy is obviously seeking the carpenter job. He's replying from another state and I know how he feels. I had to leave MI too so I know it's not easy. I'll probably enter into a discussion with him. I still haven't decided whether the first character is worth talking to. There's something about my spider senses going off there. I'm not really that hard to get into a dialogue with. I have at least 15 conversations going with applicants right now. Some have tried to call me and discuss things. I'll talk if I have free time (that takes away from BT time) but generally, I warn them that I'll still need the conversation documented in the email process because I end up compiling a list of candidates in the written form, then pouring over the responses several times before I phone them and start phase II which is the phone conversation. Phase III is usually a face to face. Right now, I've sent maybe five possible candidates to the PM. He's instructed me to go to Phase II on one candidate and send him out next week. Anyone got a better program for sorting through new hires? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
hah, hah, hah.... u said "pouring" over the applicationsMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
To answer your question, no. No talk about carpentry skills.
Which ad is yours?
$15/hr for a lead framing carpenter? Kind of cheaP IN AUSTIN
No, we are paying $15 for carpentry/laborer type help right now. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I would not bother with the first one.
The 2 for 1 sounds good if their resume looks good.
I have found the best for me is the hire and fire methid. Hire, on first day watch, give them a week , if they are ok, keep, if not, hire the next.
Resume's can look beautiful on paper, but........
Shoot, my last employer, first day I was out back of the pile of dirt throwing up. 3rd day, got sick, called in for 3 days, and then went to work.. I laugh about it now, shoot, I would have fired myself.Lasted 13 years before my auto accident.
I don't do the hire and fire thing anymore. I have the time to do some research and if I hire someone too fast, I'll miss the opportunity to hire the right person because I won't be looking anymore. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
The key to that approach is to always be looking.
Is the labor market tight down there?
I looked on craigs list and found a nice home, when can I start?
No, the labor market is quite loose. The mortgage situation has affected everything. Buyers are on the sidelines. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That explains why you can be selective. I always thought if they show up for work the first day, on time, that was a good sign1
Our company is currently working on project M in Lost wages, NV It's the largest privately funded project in the US. We are running over 120 union carpenters on this project and hire nearly 20/ week and lots are sent packing by weeks end.I too think Hire & Fire is the best course of action.ML
As long as people respond to adds, the old hire and fire I think is best.
I can buucrap my way through an interview, but when it comes to doing, you had better know how, if you said you knew!!>G<
The experts tell job applicants to review the job target and the specific requirements and then develop your resume so that you are a "perfect match" for the job.
The books also tell you to do something to "stand out" from the other candidates.
I know what the job hunting experts tell their students. I also know how to dig beyond the hype. I normally intentionally keep my specific needs and the nature of my business vague. That forces the candidates to tell me about their real skills, not what they think I want to hear. For instance, if I post an ad and ask for framing specialists, the finish carpenters will adjust their skills to reflect that they have ten years framing. They then show up with 10 oz curved claw hammers and power mitre boxes LOL! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Number 1 doesnt sound like he'd be doing too much carpentry. I could see him always trying to be "in on the discussion" and trying to sneak his way into more management type responsibilities on site. That would be fine, except it doesnt sound like you need a manager, you need a carp and if things dont get better around here soon, you'll be perusing my resume'.
As far as number 2......maybe its the emperical "we".
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Edited 8/8/2008 4:08 pm ET by MSA1
I agree about #1. He came off too cocky. I like confident and will tolerate cocky but his resume failed to live up to the level that would allow cocky. I've decided not to further the discussion with him. The teamtaggers are a father son team. I actually don't mind hiring a tag team in some situations. One problem with that is I know I lose them both when one has to go. Here's a reply from someone. It turns out that this guy is trying to sell his entire crew. Look at how he wavers in his pricing. I'll probably call this guy to get more information from him. I learn things about the Austin market by talking to guys like him. You never know...I might actually use him for something. "Sorry for not replying sooner, I had to leave out of town in a minor emergency. I have been sub contracting for a year or so, I have my own crew for big jobs and I also do independent contracting on small jobs myslef. I charge $22 to $25 an hour for my men, it's negotiable depending on the work. The fee for myself varies depending on the work as well. Ball park $25 to 30 an hour. My experience is pretty extensive, I can build from bottom up custom homes with all interior. I read blue prints and have worked as a lead on all my jobs. I have worked in the area of 2222, Lake way, and all surrounding areas in Austin. I use to do apartment buildings as well. I now do commercial and residential since I went on my own, remodeling and building. I just finished up Lxxxxxxxxxxxx at Sxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, and I am currently doing xxxxxxxx on S. 35. I have a good size crew to help you out if you need help, and I keep on top of my men pretty well. I have all the necessary tools, guns, compressors nailer, saws and what I don't have I can get. Give me a call and let's meet somewhere to talk if you have the chance. I have worked for Gxxxx xxxxxs, Axxxx xxxxxnt, Cxxxx xxxxxs, Hxxxxxxy homes and more.
Thanks
xxxxxx Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Awful cheap sub rate.
Give him a print and see if he can really read it.
Edited 8/8/2008 10:12 pm ET by frammer52
dis guy sounds interesting...<<<<Sorry for not replying sooner, I had to leave out of town in a minor emergency. I have been sub contracting for a year or so, I have my own crew for big jobs and I also do independent contracting on small jobs myslef. I charge $22 to $25 an hour for my men, it's negotiable depending on the work. The fee for myself varies depending on the work as well. Ball park $25 to 30 an hour. My experience is pretty extensive, I can build from bottom up custom homes with all interior. I read blue prints and have worked as a lead on all my jobs. I have worked in the area of 2222, Lake way, and all surrounding areas in Austin. I use to do apartment buildings as well. I now do commercial and residential since I went on my own, remodeling and building. I just finished up Lxxxxxxxxxxxx at Sxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, and I am currently doing xxxxxxxx on S. 35. I have a good size crew to help you out if you need help, and I keep on top of my men pretty well. I have all the necessary tools, guns, compressors nailer, saws and what I don't have I can get. Give me a call and let's meet somewhere to talk if you have the chance. I have worked for Gxxxx xxxxxs, Axxxx xxxxxnt, Cxxxx xxxxxs, Hxxxxxxy homes and more.
Thanks
xxxxxx>>>>>the next conversation would involve how much is he willing to walk away fro his "side jobs"
and would he recommend any of his subs as employeesMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I just put them to work and see how they do. You can tell pretty quick.
I think I might hold the record for "just put them to work and see how they do." I once did a house that had 35 different people on it's payroll by the end. It was a typical three week house and I had to rebuild a crew. I was hiring and firing like a madman. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Don't you think it's easier than trying to figure out what people can do based on what they wrote in a resume?
No. I don't just read resumes. Once I get the hiring bug, I spend some considerable time searching and interviewing. I've found that I can ratchet up the "keeper" rate by carefully sorting and selecting and hiring the right person for the situation that I have. In the olden days, before craigslist, I had to run news ads. I'd typically spend a little more and add some language that helped sort out the chaff. Then, I'd be forced to take the calls and I'd dutifully interview them on the phone as they called. I'm not an easy guy to sneak past because I ask a lot of questions. So, back in those days, I might end up interviewing four or five hours per night for four or five days in a row. Now, in the Craigslist and email era, I get to control the process from my computer. I get to say a lot more in the Craigslist ad because it's free. By creating a definite set of standards in the ad, I basically eliminate most of the chaff but the next step is trickier. It's important to find out the real story from the job seekers. I do that by employing various tactics. The first tactic is to have them tell me informally a few key things about themselves. I also mention a few things in the CL ad and then watch to see if they follow directions. You would be surprised at how many respondents do not follow the directions in the CL ad. Of course, I immediately delete those because if they can't or wont follow my directives when applying, what makes me think they will follow directions later on when they are out there on their own without me watching over their shoulder? The next tactic is to start the written conversation and let them define themselves. I don't tell them who we are or what they do but I ask specific questions about their work history and experience. When they give me something about their real skills, I dig deeper and try to find out what really motivates them. I need to know if they are interested in being an Indian, a Chief or are they using me as a training aid to become my competition? I don't train my competitors. I had one guy tell me today that ultimately he was interested in restarting his GC business here in Austin and he basically was going to use me to bankroll him as he got himself re-established. UH UH! I'm looking for steady long term employees...I don't want to train someone that is going to compete with me. So, by digging deep in writing, I get a basis for a phone interview. If I like what Im reading, I'll make the call. Usually, a call like that will be a minimum of a half hour and if it's going well, we'll talk an hour. And I write notes. Sometimes, I wear earphone and type notes on my computer. Other times I do it the old fashioned way. And...I get to ask them verbally about their written emails. If the story starts to change, I've got them. I've had a pretty good success rate with my modern day CL method as compared to the olden days of trial and error. Trial and error can be really bad. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 8/9/2008 12:56 am by Jim_Allen
When we lived in Fla,
My father used to put an add in the local paper. He would tell anyone who called and spoke english to come on out and give it a try.
About half actually showed up. Of those, half quit the first day. Of the remaining, half would just not show up one day during the week.
More than once we had a guy go to lunch and never come back. Even had a few leave tools.
What was left at the end of the week had a job until they decided otherwise.
He was running three crews and could have easily run six. Just couldn't ever get or keep enough people no matter how he screened them.
LOL. Thats how I had 35 people on the payroll register on one house. I was trying to build a crew of five. They kept coming and going. I kept telling them all that called to come in and give it a try. Labor was really short back then. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I've never hired, and have had precious little time supervising or training someone. I sure have worked for some winners, though! I have a one-man shop. For now. When the time comes that I believe I can support help, I'd like to do things a bit differently. I don't want to advertise, interview, etc. Rather, I would prefer to approach folks who I've already screened, just by watching them in their daily lives - and compare what I see to what I need. In another word - recruiting, rather than advertising. It helps that some of my customers are apartment complexes, etc. I get a 'sneak peek' at a pretty large selection of folks. For example, one place has a lady who is working some dead-end, night shift, security job. She's a bit older (40-ish), manages to regularly get to work every day, has left her 'party years' behind her, can certainly handle a cranky customer or co-worker, and has the necessary strength and agility. I bet teaching her the trade will be the easy part - should the time come.
Yet, this same lady would be among the first eliminated by the usual employment screening process. For those who do advertise, though, it helps top be specific as to what you want. Sure, some will try to write their experience to match the description - it would be wrong not to - and some may even exaggerate. Yet, you'll also not waste the time of others who can see that they won't make the cut.
From the days when I was filling out applications, there were two instances where my application got not even a reply - yet they went on to hire guys I had helped train. I can't help but wonder: WTF?
Okay...here's another:
"Construction and Remodeling Experience
Grew up in the business – My father has been in construction and remodeling all of my life. Summers were spent on the job. In Late 1994 I left a job at Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Texas to run the business while my father finished a degree..."
Why do people think I'm going to be impressed because their dad is a carpenter?
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
In the olden days when I had to take all the phone calls from the news ads, the guys would start their sales pitch with "my grandfather and father were carpenters all my life". I'd interrupt them and ask for the dad's phone number. Most of these guys would then go on to subtly insult me but insinuating that they had 10 years experience and they were 20 years old. Somehow, they'd think that their carpenter year, piddling around with a hammer at age ten, was equal to my carpenter year when I was out there in zero weather, hanging by my fingernails in a driving wind onto a truss, while they sat in gradeschool picking their nose and dreaming about getting a new bike for xmas. Kids.... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I keep telling you to hire me, but you never listen!
You haven't answered the ad! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
I asked which one it was.
Just apply to all of them! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
Come on, I just want to harass you!!!!<G>
I wasn't born yesterday. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
Come on, I can fill your mailbox!!!!!
I won't open a resume unless you can entice me with a nice email reply in the body of the email. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
I found your add, now if I could figure out how to respond>G<
Come on Jim, I can fill tyour mailbox with the best resume you ever saw!!!!!!!!!!!
I even looked at RE to buy a house!
When I was going through my apprenticeship. The biggest problem we had was 1/2 could not read a tape or blueprints. Blueprint reading is key if any of them wish to every be more than a laborer.ML
Blueprint reading is something I can't understand how a person can't read.
I used to joke about the classes I would give at lunchtime, when someone misread their tape, until I had someone take me serious, and I had to teach them on my lunchtime!!!!
I agree I've had to do the same drew it out on a sheet of plywood in keel....
So can you two explain those black diamonds on my tape to me?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Is it lunch time already?>G<
Well according to my computers clock it is right on noon , so yes!
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
you mean the 19.2" mark for setting truss spacing?ML
HUH?
Are you trying to confuse me here. Trusses are always 24" O.C. aren't they?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I'm under the impression they are for the center of TJI's? for the sheathing to layout correctly. 96" divided by 5= 19.2"Please correct me if Im wrongML
Edited 8/14/2008 12:03 pm by MSLiechty
I am pulling your leg. Yes, the diamonds are placed on the tape for ease in reading the layout laying out 19.2" for TJI, truss or even sawn lumber. Not common these days for sawn lumber to be used on that layout but I have seen it done. Best high school course I ever took was mechanical drawing. 2 years worth and I was able to translate the knowledge of mechanical drawing into blueprint reading easily when I entered the construction field. Only thing that still bugs me is the use of the term "Plan view" as opposed to "Top View"! What is the big project in NV?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Agreed it should be birds eye view or top view Project M IS a multi GC.http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/aug/08/m-resort-slated-open-march-2009/ML
WOW! Too big a project for me, but looks like a fun one.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Nice project!
To me carpenters and resumes just don't mix, at least not in this part of the country. I've read great resumes with great portfolios only to find the guy was slow as smell, or nobody could stand the guy, or he was washed up due to one vice or the other.
Other guys who can't read well, let alone write, are great carpenters. Some of the most valuable talents a carpenter can posses can't be easily described on paper, at least not by most carps.
I'd rather spend 5 minutes visiting with a guy over reading his resume. I've read so many misleading resumes that anymore I don't even look at them, even if they are offered to me. Almost everyone can speak about what they do and with a few careful questions it's at least good enough to see if they are worth hiring on a trial basis.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I don't like resumes either. When I write my Craigslist ad, I specifically state that I won't read their resume unless they write a simple explanation about who they are, their primary skill and a little bit about their tooling and transportation in the body of the email. I explain that if the story is interesting in the body of the email, I'll open the resume if they attach one. I also warn that I delete all replies that don't have anything but the resume. This program has worked good for me. I've worked with enough carpenters to know that some of them don't even know what a computer is so when I place an ad in Craigslist, I realize that I'm not going to reach every potential applicant. But, so far, Craigslist has been a pretty good resource for me. One problem I had with the five minute conversation is that they always seem to go twenty, thirty and ssometimes more. That might be my fault because once I get into interview mode, I dig, dig, dig, dig, dig. I've rooted out many problems this way. I still get to that point but only after trading a couple rounds of question and answers. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
My twenty-five-year-old nephew just got out of the Marines and is enrolled in a local college.
If he ever gets close to thinking about getting in the building trades, I will try not to kill him.
Fifteen lousy bucks an hour.
I'll just have him read this thread.
Kowboy
It is sad isn't it. I would highly recommend advising everyone to stay out of the unlicensed trades. I used to make decent money back in the 80's. I'd frame houses for 16k with three guys on the payroll and keep half of that every three weeks. My pricing was 3,4,or 5 bucks per sqft. ($3 for easy houses, $4 for medium houses, $5 for hard houses) Right now, they are framing those same style homes for $1.75 per sq ft here in Austin. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
When did framing become an unlicensed trade? Or has it always been so? You wouldn't believe all the "fiery hoops" an aspiring hair stylist has to go through in order to cut your hair. In order to frame your house, on the other hand, you wouldn't need more than just the requisite tools (hammer, tape measure, cir saw, nail gun, etc.)? Does this seem a little back-####-wards to anyone else, or is it just me?
Framing is unlisenced in many states, NY being one!
hair is tricky. Cowlicks, part it on the left or right or down the center, bangs, no bangs, collar length, over the ear. sheesh - I want my hair person to kwo what they are doing. Houses, enough nails and it will stand up fine. plumb, square might be a different story."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
Fifteen lousy bucks an hour.
I worked down in Austin for 3 1/2 years and the lowest pay that I got was $18 an hour - not that I'd let my nephew go into the trades either but if you have skills its not the worst thing in the world to be doing.
Gotta find the right people to work for.
Doug
If you have skills is the key phrase. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
Hi Jim,
I am about to start the process of hiring my first employee and was hoping you would share your craigslist ad. I am having a hard time finding the line between enough and too much information to get quality responses. The whole process has got me in a knot, this is a huge step for me but I am at the point where the Rubicon must be crossed. This is an exellent topic that will help us all.
Hiring your first is a huge milestone! Congrats.Craigslist is down right now so I can't copy and paste the ad but I think you should write your own anyways. You clearly have the ability to concisely get your point across as evidenced by your request in this thread, so I know you are not word challenged. The main thing I do is speak from my heart. I know what I want and I know what I don't want. So, listing those attributes will significantly improve your chances at getting a good connection with someone. For instance, I always state that I don't want drug addicts, people with sour attitudes and people who don't take their career seriously meaning: if you come late and miss days, don't bother applying. I then make a list of those attributes that I am interested in but I try to be vague. For instance, if I'm interested in filling a remodeling position, I'll ask for a carpenter and ask them to tell me what they're greatest strengths are in the field of carpentry. That forces them to tell me the truth in their initial offerings to me. If they tell me that their greatest talent is framaing because they've framed on custom homes for the last 15 years, I pretty much know that they won't be the best if I'm seeking a well rounded remodeling carpenter. Maybe if you answer these questions, we can help you draft an ad. What kind of work are you trying to do? What kind of help are you seeking? What short term goals do you have with this person? What long term goals do you have with this person? Are there specific things you would want them to have or be? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
idaho don makes a good point....
<<<To me carpenters and resumes just don't mix, at least not in this part of the country. I've read great resumes with great portfolios only to find the guy was slow as smell, or nobody could stand the guy, or he was washed up due to one vice or the other.Other guys who can't read well, let alone write, are great carpenters. Some of the most valuable talents a carpenter can posses can't be easily described on paper, at least not by most carps. I'd rather spend 5 minutes visiting with a guy over reading his resume. I've read so many misleading resumes that anymore I don't even look at them, even if they are offered to me. Almost everyone can speak about what they do and with a few careful questions it's at least good enough to see if they are worth hiring on a trial basis.>>>known as finding a diamond in the rough...i would have missed some great employees if i had been juging them on their written skillsMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"Almost everyone can speak about what they do and with a few careful questions it's at least good enough to see if they are worth hiring on a trial basis."Care to share your "few careful questions"?We're not in the hiring process now, but our last experience (and the ensuing purging) left a bad taste in our mouths. We will definitely do it differently next time, but I haven't figured out exactly what "tests" will be given to the potential employee.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
If you can find the perfect question or perfect test, let me know! I dont' think there is any one way. I do the screening and turn over my choices to the PM. He gets a batch of choices and hires someone and the first day is their test. They know that up front. That's how I've always hired in with an unknown employer. It's a two way test. They are testing me, the employee and I'm testing them, the employer to see if it's a fit.
CAG was researching this at one point, I think.
Sometimes, I think it's more useful to start a new thread, rather than try the search "For-Function".
Christopher Robin got up in the morning, the sneezles had vanished away. And the look in his eye seemed to say to the sky, "Now how to amuse them today?".
Care to share your "few careful questions"?
The thing to remember about interview questions is that it doesn't matter if it is related directly to the job at hand, just that it gives you information that pertains to what you want. For example asking what someone does for fun after work speaks volumes to their energy level.
I'll usually ask what type of projects they have worked on, this shows the caliber of contractor they have worked for and the general category of experience they probably have.
Another question that I'll always ask is what their favorite kind of carpentry is. If I want someone with good finishing skills and they say framing, especially blow and go framing, is what really turns their crank it sends out a red flag.
For a finish carp how they answer the question of how they like to put site built cabinets together will determine their comfort level with that activity and a bit more. If they daddo everything perhaps they are using good but slow techniques, bisquits are good and pocket screws are perhaps the latest/fastest trend. Face frames with dowels scream sllloooow, but may be appropriate if pocket screw holes are objectionable.
The type of tools someone has speaks to their productivity and philosophy. If a guy is tooled up well says something compared to the guy who doesn't even own a good level. Some tools increase accuracy, some increase productivity and some just don't make sense. The guy who says he believes a good carpenter can make do with as few tools as possible, it is like saying, "I'm proud to be slow and too stubborn to buy specialized tools that increase my productivity. Pay me less than the other guys."
Asking how they would prep the framing before sheetrock brings out knowledge of blocking for the various things that finish carps enjoy.
If someone seems high energy (more likely to have high productivity and low quality) I want to make sure they aren't also scatter-brained and likely to make more errors. If they seem very detail oriented (more likely to have good quality and low speed) I'll ask questions that are directed at their speed and production.
Asking how they normally install windows brings out issues of house wrap, flashing, caulking, shimming, painting, etc.
Asking how fast they are at running trim gives them a chance to show the depth and breadth of their experience since anyone who's done it much knows the difference in time required to run paint grade vs. stain grade, or base vs. crown can be considerable. If the guy boasts he can trim an entire house in two days, he may be better off working for the tract house guys.
A carp that reads FHB, JLC and digs for stuff online is probably much more up to date than the guy who says he likes to learn everything on the job. Someone who knows their way around a code book is a plus because it does require some effort and you can't help but learn a little. Same for simpson or truss joist literature.
If being detail oriented and well versed at putting kitchens together is important you might hand them the factory installation suggestions for xxxxx and have them walk you through it. If someone hits the nail on the head as for where to have a new gas line come through the floor and a good place to mount a shut off in your cabinets, this is probably not their first rodeo.
If they have had a history of shooting themselves in a finger every year, there's a good chance the same will happen when they are working with you. I asked a guy this and he went on and on about how last year he walked into a 2x4 and lost a tooth, when to the OR twice for other things, and showed off a few scars from the past year. It was easy enough to guess he would be back to the OR soon for whomever he ended up working for, and he was.
By this time you already know if they can walk and chew gum at the same time, if they are presentable to clients, and if they have potential. Some people just "get it." Some don't.
:-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Heres a reply I got when I asked about tooling, transportation and salary."I have over eight years of experience in the carpentry and construction fields; and I have experience supervising crews of up to 8, as well as sales teams made up of up to 15 individuals. I have experience with the design, fabrication, installation and repair of cabinetry, custom doors and windows, furniture and trim carpentry. I am skilled at reading blueprints; and I own all of my own tools and transportation. Salary is always dependent upon the demands of a position; however, I expect to bring home at least 40,000 dollars annually when starting with a new company. I expect to work for a company who recognizes good, hard work and compensates their employees accordingly for their performance.I appreciate your response to my email, and am available to answer any further questions or concerns you may have. I look forward to hearing from you"
You didn't comment.
It his response what you were looking for?
"Everyday we learn something new. Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. It doesn't have to be an "A" the next day, but let's hope it improves." 08/27/08
Matt Garcia 1986-2008 22 yo Fairfield City Council Member, shot 09/01/08 RIP
My comment was that he was doing himself a great disservice with his language and choice of delivery. Every applicant should understand that they are selling themselves. This is the reality whether they understand it or not. The best way we have to sell our services is to demonstrate our value and show how they will benefit us. He could/should figure a way to say the same thing but include why it will benefit me. I haven't outright rejected this person but I just thought it's an interesting response and somewhat typical.
Come on Jim, he's in the trade, give him a look!
Were not hiring right now.
You filled my position yet?
Okay Jim, could you do me a favor and write out exactly what you would prefer to receive in the email? Maybe you did earlier, and I missed it.
Just wondering, because I prebably would have given that guy a chance.
What would your response have been to your own ad?
"Everyday we learn something new. Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. It doesn't have to be an "A" the next day, but let's hope it improves." 08/27/08
Matt Garcia 1986-2008 22 yo Fairfield City Council Member, shot 09/01/08 RIP
I've already admitted that even though I have read thousands of these responses and/or interviewed, I'm horrible at putting the words on paper about myself. i really haven't done it that much in the last 30 years. But, with that said, he probably would sound better by explaining how his services will benefit me because he can tear a bathroom out and re-install it himself in five days or something like that. Employers all know what they can pay, and know they will pay. Employees all have families and need to be paid so it's no surprise that someone wants "x" amount of money. I've had a lot of guys say this: "I usually get paid $25 per hour and can prove I'm worth that. I'd be willing to hire on and let you decide how much I'm worth at the end of the week. My only request is that you give me a fair shot to prove my worth to you."
I've had a lot of guys say this: "I usually get paid $25 per hour and can prove I'm worth that. I'd be willing to hire on and let you decide how much I'm worth at the end of the week. My only request is that you give me a fair shot to prove my worth to you."
I always worked for a week and then sat down to talk about money. I was only ever disappointed once and it turns out that employer couldn't have paid me if i was working for $0.00 per hour. No great loss.
But in my current situation? I doubt I would jump ship without a solid floor for what I would make.
In fact, when I hired guys I mixed the two systems. I put a guy to work with the promise of a bottom per hour figure and the promise to sit down on friday and talk about pay. It worked pretty well and I think i only ever disappointed two people.
Seems to me you might be looking for the well rounded, skilled kinnda guy who would do well running his own business. That's probably where he is right now.
is he applying for your position?? with an attitude like that he will probably se himself in charge even when no one else does."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
"I'd rather spend 5 minutes visiting with a guy over reading his resume. I've read so many misleading resumes that anymore I don't even look at them, even if they are offered to me. Almost everyone can speak about what they do and with a few careful questions it's at least good enough to see if they are worth hiring on a trial basis.>>>known as finding a diamond in the rough...i would have missed some great employees if i had been juging them on their written skills"Mike, I think I acknowledged that point earlier in the thread. In fact, I specifically mention in my Craigslist ad that I DO NOT OPEN RESUMES. I explicitly tell them that I need a brief statement of who they are and what their main skills are along with a brief statement about their tooling and transportation. Now, it's possible that some illiterate people are going to not read that ad and not apply, but since this is a print ad, I'm assuming that they can meet those basic requirments, or have their sister write the reply for them. No method of reaching out and contacting fellow carpenters will be perfect. I know...I've hired at least 400 of them in my career and was wrong on 395 of my choices LOL. That estimate might be a little low.
Hi Jim,
Well this is what I posted tell me what you think.
Looking for an experienced residential carpenter familiar with all phases of construction. Successful candidates will possess:
− A working alarm clock
− A presentable, professional appearance and the ability to pass a drug test
− Reliable transportation with a valid driver’s license and insurance
− Tools (hand tools)
− Integrity and an ability to work and play well with others
− A desire to produce a quality product in an environment that fosters innovation and rewards hard work
We are a growing company with a vision of the future and a plan to get there.
A breath of fresh air after all the corporate-babble you see out there!
Would still give applicants the 'sawhorse test.'
It's a little cheesy but theres enough there to keep the drunks from calling. That's your main goal. Without that qualifier you'd end up with every loser this side of the Mississippi calling.The working alarm clock could be considered condescending or cute. Everything else pretty much spells out what you are looking for. It's seems a little formal but overall it says a lot and will get you some good responses and maybe keep away some slugs who will waste your precious time. Now...don't be afraid to run an entirely different type offering. Change it up slightly in some way. For instance, look for some carpenter "specialist" such as a drywaller or a bowling alley installer. Look to see if the same guys who claim they are familiar with all phases also respond to your specialist call. Some will change their resumes to fit your call. That will smoke out the bsers. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
The Alarm clock line kinnda struck me.
It sets the tone, and that tone is one of an employer frustrated with past or current emplyees.
Maybe not the kinnda guy you want to work for.
The Alarm clock line kinnda struck me.
I liked it - it made me laugh, and I like working for people with a sense of humor.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I liked it - it made me laugh, and I like working for people with a sense of humor.
But that's part of the problem. When you put something like that out there, it's like a Text message. No way to know the intent or tone.
If my being frustrated by tardiness is a problem you should and will absolutely NOT work for me. That was the point of the statement, I am not looking for votes I am looking for quality employees. People that make it easy, even joyful to write a check for. Being on time should be a given, shame it has to be discussed at all.
square,
I've been down the road you are on. Are you looking for common workers? Or the few guys who are gonna stand out and make your business grow. I've hired dozens maybe even hundreds of those common workers so i can understand your frustration.
I don't know you and we've never met and I'm not in the market for a job. even when I was a carpenter who needed to work for someone else, I seldom needed to look for a job.
I came with my own full sized truck full of all my own tools to include nailguns and a compressor. I've never been fired for being late or missing work.
In the days before I realized my own worth, I worked for a few of J%^*off's. They all and the same outward indications and eventually you can spot them. I'm not saying you're one of those guys, I'm saying that line is gonna make at least a few people question if you are or not.
you're getting feedback from guys here who hire. I'm trying to give you a little perspective from the other side.
When I see the alarm clock line there? it makes me think J%^*off i don't want to be bothered with. You might be the nicest boss in the world, but that's not what that say.
The Bottom line is there is a more professional way to say that. If it doesn't bother you that there is pretty awsome carpenter out there looking for a steady, stable job who is gonna pass you by because he thinks you're a J%^*off? Ok!
I just think you'll scare away more than one guy who is the match your business needs.
By the way. When I had to hire for my own crew? I never once found the magic bullet. It seems like being on time, having their own transportation and a license, and being able to stay away from the bottle are all impossible to the bulk of people who answer your ad.
I'm agreeing with you on this one too Robert. To me, the alarm clock statement stood out. It quickly set a tone and I don't like the tone. It was condescending. But, I also can see how it could be construed as somewhat humorous. I've heard guys talk to each other that way onsite. The problem with written humor is that it often lacks the necessary visual clues that typically accompanies job-site banter. Look how many times that offense is taken in here if we don't dutifully show a smiley face and/or LOL. So, in the interest of turning off that one competent applicant that doesn't want to deal with another meanie boss situation, I'd advise a re-wording. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
That's exactly the way guys talk to eachother on jobsites everywhere.
But like you said, the intonation that makes it humor doesn't come thru in print.
The better employee you attract to begin with the less likely that problem is to arise.
"Being on time should be a given, shame it has to be discussed at all.True. but...don't lose sight of the goal. The goal is to get folks to contact you. You are fishing and if you put out the nicest bait possible, and clearly state the conditions and standards, WITHOUT SHOWING ANY ANIMOSITY OR FRUSTRATION, you will attract the biggest pool. I used to see one post on CL where the boss obviously had dealt with far too many lowlifes. So, his entire ad was a rant about all those that he had fired. I really couldn't imagine anyone but the lowest of low replying to his call for carpenters. I've tried that route myself so I know a little bit about it. I don't remember the results. Here is what I do know. I have gotten many, many compliments about how/what/why my ads are written. Many people have looked at ten or fifteen ads and called only me. When I write, I write from my heart and soul and just let other people, like me, connect with me. So, when I want to say "don't be late", I codify that by asking for "dependable" people. One way sounds negative, the other is positive. If you've ever read How to Win Friends and Influence People, you'd recognize that technique. It's called "Make them a hero and watch them live up to it." or something like that. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
CL is a good idea mainly b/c it's free but you do get only a selective crowd. Certainly can't hurt.
I put a small ad in my local Pennysaver a few weeks ago for a week ($35). Most people looking for work use the newspaper or the Pennysaver. Pennsaver is a LOT cheaper than the newspaper and it is local if that's important to you.
I thought it was weird that I got only 1/2 doz. calls. Thought there was a work shortage in remodeling?? Anyway...the glut of work I thought I was in for died down so i never got to try anyone out. My customers only let the work trickle in for me which is fine but that means I can't keep anyone gainfully employed and I do feel the sense of responsibility when I hire someone to keep them working.
I think the glut of work will come up sometime very soon so I'll try my ad again...I'll give CL a shot first I think...maybe even today to see where it goes being I'm home doing paper work for the job I'm on.
One thing for sure is I've been using subs a whole lot more than in the past. It's a lot easier on my back...lol. thing is..when I don't have enough work to fill my calendar I'd rather put the money in my own and any employee I havez pocket. Things are for sure picking up now though. the jobs are a lot bigger but fewer so if one dries up I'm sunk. It's a good start though being I'm restarting my biz back up after doing only my own spec houses over the past buncha years.
I've had dozens of guys working for me over the years. Several that stayed with me a really long time.
I find that if I treat them the way I like to be treated they work better for me than if I treat them ONLY like an employee. I find people are living breathing life forms with problems and things that make them happy and they will bring that to work with them. It's only human nature. Thing is you have to find the balance because work is work and letting too much personal emotion into the workplace creates an unbalanced situation....yet I feel you need to be somewhat empathetic....I think it goes a long way at the end of the day.
I feel as though I spend more time with the people that have worked for me than with my own family so understanding on a personal level goes a real long way as long as you keep the balance in check.
Honesty is the best policy with your help. Making them feel good about themselves helps too...I find it amazing how an employee will bend over backwards for you if you keep it real...and visa versa.
shal ॐ
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Blog http://cliffordrenovations.com/WP/
Andy, the great thing about CL is that you can write a novel in there and post it for free. For instance, if you copy and pasted the last five paragraphs of your post into a CL ad and followed it with a simple request for part time help, you'd be swamped with offers to work for you. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
In a word
No
But it may be worth a phone call or face to face for a few minutes to read him better, check a few references. Personally though references don't mean much to me unless they care coming from someone I know and trust.... Who is going to put down a bad reference?
I'm probably letting a guy go today that over-sold himself and seems to have developed an elitist attitude as to what he thinks is below him in terms of work.
Good luck in your search.
My own personal opinion is forget craigslist for management material. Have you asked around to other people you know in similar industries? Craigslist would be last place I would go looking for a quality job. That could just me though.
Hello to all!
First time on here, and hope nobody minds what may seem like a simple question.
The question is this:
What do you look for when hiring?
For a little bit of back story: 27 years old and have decided to make carpentry my career - at least as long as my body holds out! Really enjoy it, and have been on low end projects for several years now. Very little in the way of quality or high-end work here in central MO, and would like to raise my skill levels. Not currently looking for work, but when I am, would like to know how to highlight my qualifications. Additionally, what skills are most prized (aside from showing up on time, sober)? How do I find a good contractor? So far, the two I've worked for here are rawhide outfits, but have great local reputations.
Any advice? Am I asking the right questions?
Thanks for your time!
Welcome Puretrack.Your question is a very good question. Knowing the answer will put dollars in your pocket and help you provide for your family for many years to come. If you were looking in my area and stated exactly what you've stated here, it would peak my interest and I'd reply to you and ask you more questions. So, my advice is to be truthful, energetic and flexible. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
Hey pure....Far as your body holding out...the way I've always thought of that is that the work we do is very physical and if you pay attention to the way you move it should work well in KEEPING you healthy. Make it work FOR you, not against you. Move right and be conscious abut all that you do. Sync you mind and body. Make it one. It'll help you become a better craftsman as well as keeping you healthy. Eat right as well. Don't take things for granted..AT ALL!
The healthier you are the more it shows. I can tell when someone radiates and when someone just exists from paycheck to paycheck. I can pretty much tell when a person is looking to do what it takes to get ahead. I think that should be your concern. If you pay attention to the basics things just WILL fall into place for you. You'll see.
Your energy level is a biggie. When you find a good boss hang onto him as he should to you. You'll know when it's there. You just will.
I don't think there's any ONE skill you need to get great at...pay attention to everything. Focus on simple details. Once you have enough of those and get into the good habits...into the groove.. it just escalates and other people will see it. Stay excited!!
You shouldn't see your work any different than you view your life because if you do......then you ain't livin'.
Good luck bro
Namaste'
andy
shal ॐ
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Blog http://cliffordrenovations.com/WP/
At age 27, I'd suggest heading to any of the licensed mechanical trades. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
I wouldn't....but that's just me..that's a personal decision. If anything at 27 I'd take some courses in business at the local community college. Thats one thing I regret not being involved in way back when...thats a huge tool to add to your tool bag...whatever craft you get into! You should play the field for a spell...then figure out what makes you the happiest to wake up to every morning.
Personally I love being in remodeling. Its the furthest thing from boring...just wish I was better versed in the business end of it all.
I'm still workin'' on it though : )
MeherBaba http://www.meherbabainformation.org/content.asp
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Blog http://cliffordrenovations.com/WP/
Andy, I have the education and it does help, but to much theory drives me nuts. Doing it is as valuable an education as studying it!<G>
Thanks guys, for your input!andybuildz, Really appreciate your reading recommendations. Getting the philosophical side of things always brings a lot more depth to me. Luck to all!
One other suggestion....read everything by http://jameskrenov.com/
He has an incredable view to life and building.
I also love http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Nearing
Just some food for thought. It's all about tude'
shal ॐ
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Blog http://cliffordrenovations.com/WP/
Heres an update from a CL ad I'm running. This fellow gave me this information in his first email reply to me.
"I am best skilled in residential carpentry with 10 years experience to include to school training. I am a lead carpenter in the area of trim and cabinetry. I communicate with homeowners on a constant basis. My current salary is $22 per hour. I have transportation and own basic hand tools. I am requesting to work under supervision. I am looking to relocate from Florida to Texas.
I am looking to remain in residential carpentry in the area of trim and cabinetry as a finish work. I am requesting a pay of no lower than $20/hr with medical, dental, sick leave, and vacation and if optional retirement plan."
Now, when I read that, I can quickly rule him out and I haven't wasted more than a minute of my time reading a simple answer (his) to my question as outlined in the ad. He's included all the info I asked for, so I think he's good at following directions. He's not particularly skilled at writing, but I'm trying to hire a carpenter, not a journalist.
The deal breaker is his salary and benefit demands. I don't blame him for wanting that, I want it too. I just am not offering that program at this time. If I could, I would and I'd call him and interview him. I'm also looking for someone that has more framing background.
I knew you were cheap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes! You figured that out! Darn.
I had that figured out real quick!!
Good thing I didn't move to Austin to fill your opening.
You'd already been fired for being too much of a smartalec.
Got to keep it interesting!!
Just a reminder ..... tonight is Sunday night, and guess what I get to do? Work. Why? Because a local 'home and garden' year-round home show type place is having their grand opening. Because the handyman they started with as a 'electrician' messed things up. Because the inexperienced guy they hired next is in over his head -poor guy has probably only roped houses until now - and can't run the problem down. In the meantime, one row of booths is lacking power. OOPS. Sometimes you get what you pay for.
If you work today at triple time, you can take monday, tuesday and wednesday off and still be even.
put me on the payroll...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
A coffee a day!
that too....
put me on the payroll and mail me the checks....
be too much to come in and get them...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
The check is in the mail.
excellent...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
One company asks job applicants "what do you want to accomplish in your lifetime?"
The applicant's response says a lot about their purpose in life and their goals.
Some people don't have much confidence and this is reflected in their answer
Some people have a negative attitude toward life and feel that they are a victim
Other people have a positive attitude and their answer would reflect this
So did you ever find someone to hire?
Christopher Robin got up in the morning, the sneezles had vanished away. And the look in his eye seemed to say to the sky, "Now how to amuse them today?".
Yes. I narrowed the list of candidates down to about 6 people and hired a guy that is working out wonderfully. In fact, we are paying him more than what he asked and more than what we agreed on. I also tried a guy out that didn't work out. After one day, we mutually agreed that our situations weren't mutually what we wanted. It was obvious that this guy was too desperate for immediate cashflow and took a job that he really didn't want. He spent the entire vetting process hiding his real motivation (he just needed cash-anyhow, anyway...and fast) and had no intention of entering into a long range commitment. Since I didn't do a face to face, I didn't smoke that out. Instead of the face to face, we simply did the "come to work, we'll vet you on the job" like so many people have mentioned. Now, for round two.
Well, good luck with that.
It sounds like you are keeping busy, anyway. That's a good thing. DH is pretty sure his company will fold by December. Currently, no sticks in the ground and way to top heavy.
Possibly, moving down your way...
Christopher Robin got up in the morning, the sneezles had vanished away. And the look in his eye seemed to say to the sky, "Now how to amuse them today?".
We are busy because we are so small. It's really easy to be overbooked with only one small crew LOL! I don't envy anyone in areas looking at the downswing in the construction market. It's easy to get trapped thinking that things will turn around next week or next month because they always did before. I stayed in MI one year too many and it almost bankrupted me.
Well, DH has been frustrated for quite sometime. They keep cutting all the "worker bees", yet they continue to employ about 4 archys (lousy) and 3 engineers @ $250,000 each. Many other useless office people who spend every day trying to throw one another under the bus...lol.
Well, that, and the owner has had a crew up preparing for his crazy BurningMan adventure, just like he does every year. That's $200,000 right there. Yikes.
I don't frame anymore, but I can set a pretty door perfectly. I don't shovel dirt.
Lol...
Christopher Robin got up in the morning, the sneezles had vanished away. And the look in his eye seemed to say to the sky, "Now how to amuse them today?".