*
We are putting an addition on a 100+ year farm house. The original foundation is stone, topped by 2 1/2 story balloon frame. The addition 20′ long, set against a 28′ original wall. The excavator came out on Friday, dug the foundation and poured stone. Footings set to be done Monday. Before he left on Friday, he told me that my house was 5″ lower at one end of the 20′ addition. My thought was that he must have dug 5″ lower on one side. He’s insisting the problem is with the house, not with his digging or measurement. He wants to make this up in the block wall, but I don’t think that’s a good idea. I’ve already called to tell him to hold off on the footings until Tuesday. Now, how do I check to see where the problem is? I’ve heard that a water level might be useful, any tips on making/using one? Thanks.
Kristin
Replies
*
Kristen,
As old as the house is, I'm not surprised that it is 5" out of level.
The question is this:
Do you jack up the old house to level or do you build to existing grades?
Jacking up the old house can open many cans of worms. To many to mention. We usually build to existing grades. It makes it tough on the carpenter, but we do it all the time. Imagine if you will a room that is 2" out of level from one end to the other. Then you run a chair rail 30" above finish floor on a level line. When you step back, it will look as though the chair railing was run out of level because it doesn't jive with the room.
The footings contractor probably already shot the grades with a transit of some sort. He had to in order to do his job. You can check it yourself with an instrument (auto level) that you can probably rent at your local rental yard or surveyors store.
Good Luck,
Ed. Williams
*For that something that extreme, you could use a line level - a little spirit level that hangs in the middle of a tight string - like masons use.Any hardware store will have water levels parts. Two clear plastic tubes that screw on to the ends of your garden hose. To use them accurately:1) Only use a hose with good ends and the gaskets in place.2) Get all the dirt or crud out the hose.3) Keep a jug of water at each end to top it off.4) If you have a slope available, leave the ends high and the middle low for a minute to burp any air pockets. Otherwise, pick up the hose in the middle to create a high spot and walk that rise, hand-over-hand, from one end to the other twice to burp it.5) Read height using the bottom of the miniscus.Properly used, a water level can be accurate to 1/16" over any distance (but over hundreds of feet it takes 20-40 seconds for it reach level).
*
I'm not so sure that the house is the culprit here. There are no signs of settlement in the original structure. All the floors are level, and since they sit right on the foundation, I figured this would be a sure sign. No cracking in the interior plaster or any of the masonry work on either of two fire places. No gaps in diagonal exterior sheathing. Roof angles and all connections between rafters and wall studs are still true. Is there a way I can politely ask him to reshoot it? He did say he was using borrowed equipment that he hadn't used before. Is it possible this may have skewed the measurements a bit?
*
Dear Kristin,
Yes it's possible that he screwed up and it's worth a check to make sure. However, don't rush to any conclusions and unless there's cause, respect the man's work.
You have already indicated to him that he should return on Tuesday, on Monday, go rent a grade level for day and mark the grade on the existing foundation, at both ends. If it's level then transfer the grade marks to the bottom of the footing and check it out to make sure he's not out of whack there.
Also while you're at it, check the 4 corners of the excavated area, just to be on the safe side.
If you find any problems, tell him that you were worried that his level may have been defective, and as a favor you have borrowed one to help him out and for him to use.
Gabe
*Kristin,Go to Home Depot and rent a transit for a day. Shoot the corners of his excavation and the forms as Gabe says, but also just for kicks, set it up inside your house and shoot the floors. If you can set it up outside somewhere that you can shoot the footings and the floors (through windows), that'd be ideal. It'll tell you exactly what's going on. All you need to do is interpret the data.It wouldn't be surprising one teeny little bit if a 2 1/2 story 100+ year old house was not level.In fact it would be very surprising if it were.Let us know what you find out,Dan Morrison
*There is an awful lot I don't know, but five inches over 28' is a LOT out of level. You should be able to see this just by standing back and looking. The mason's string and line level suggested by David would certainly make the five inches (or lack thereof) clearly visible. If the string shows the contractor is wrong, then you might want to follow the more elaborate methods to make the point to him.Rich Beckman
*Just read this thread and I cant help but thinking that Rich is right.5" in 28' should be pretty easy to eyeball even just sighting down the top of a 4' level. Also, if you can drop a plumb bob 2' or 3' off a corner, Pythagorean theorem should get you pretty close. ( a2 + b2 = c2) Alot closer than 5". And it would make Blue happy that you used math instead of a level.JonCP.S. If any of you keyboard wizards know how I can make numbers appear as exponents E-mail me. It's come up before.
*The plumb bob is a great idea. If the house is really 5" out of level it will show up with a plumb bob. Ed.
*
That's what I thought, too! Especially since the 5" isn't even over 28', but just over the 20' of the addition. Which I assume means that if you extend the plane to the actual corners of the house, it would be more like 7" or so.
Thanks for all the input, everyone. I'll have to report back tomorrow with the results...Now, anyone want to tackle how to deal with the various results I may get? For instance, what do I do if the house is actually 5" out of level?
*
Kristen, don't worry if the house is 5" out of level. Just remember to pour the floor wax on the high side of the house. the wax will then run downhill to the low side,and presto you'll be done waxing the floor in 25 seconds or less!
My good old buddy Doyle let me in on that one!
blue
*Kristin,I'm picturing that the original house is a rectangle, 28' long? and for 20' of that you've got plans for an addition (off the back? making an L or T shape?)I still don't think it's odd that the house could be that far out -- I've seen it lot's of times in old houses -- but I do agree that you should be able to tell if the floors are that far out. Marbles would roll very easily...As I see it, if the house is out of level, you either need to raise the house or match the house with the addition. If there's a wall separating the new from the old then perhaps the new floor could be level (you'd only need to booger the openings), but when you get to the top of the walls, the roof will need to line up with the existing, so it may be evident in the differing wall heights upstairs.Is this a two and a half story addition? Is the 1/2 story attic space or living space? If it's attic space then you could fudge the knee walls, and it wouldn't be evident inside.If you decide to raise the house, get someone who does this all the time. If you live in farm country, I'm sure there's someone around who's raised up a bunch of other houses in the area.One thing to consider in your decision is that the framing, trim and cabinets will go a lot faster and easier (more inexpensive) if they don't have to build and hide 5" out of level. Those costs may partly offset the cost of raising the place...Good luck,Dan
*It appears you’ve already gotten a number of good suggestions for checking the foundation but I would like to add to the one regarding the use of a Water Level. I use a Water Level quite often and find it to be more useful and accurate to me than a transit or builders level and most certainly more accurate than a line level or a spirit level. With most of the other devices it takes two people to get a reading. With a 5 gallon bucket and one of the clear attachments of the water level ends that were mentioned earlier you can make a very simple and easy to use system. With this system if the hose isn’t filled to the same exact location there isn’t going to be too much difference in its accuracy other than the thickness of the marking tool. Here is why. With the two clear ends you have what could be called a simple water level. This level can be off by whatever distance the next mark is set from the original marking location on the end being moved from point to point. Not to mention how it will be off if it loses water when someone forgets to cap an end before moving the hose. When a reservoir is used, as in the case of a 5-gallon bucket, there is a ratio between the hose’s interior area and the surface area of the bucket. To be off just one sixteenth of an inch using a bucket and a 5 / 8 id hose the hose would have to be drained of water back into the bucket for 16 inches. With a hose having a 3 / 8 id the water would have to be drained back 44 inches. Here is what you can do. Fill a 5 gallon bucket until it is about one half full. Do this with the end of the hose weighted so it will not come out of the bucket or weight it after the bucket has been filled. One of those brass lawn fixtures is fairly handy for this especially if it weighs as much as the one’s my wife likes to buy as sprinklers and decorations too. Once the bucket is full you can disconnect the hose from the hose bib and connect the one clear end to the hose. For all practical purposes the hose shouldn’t have any large air bubbles to cause the level to be inaccurate and especially if it is used immediately. If it isn’t then depending upon the water in your area and how much air is in the water it may be necessary to let the water stand for about an hour and then siphon it out through the hose to clear the bubbles which may develop in it. Personally I use a 1 / 4 or 3 / 8 inside diameter clear plastic hose. With it being clear it is possible to see the bubbles, if there are any. The meniscus isn’t a problem in the larger size hoses as it is with the smaller hoses and water with a very high mineral content or colder weather causing a higher viscosity. However it is the thing to use to determine the exact point of level in smaller hose sizes. By moving the hose up and down there is a point that can be noticed where the meniscus will flatten or start to develop when that point is found it is the place to mark. It is all again possible to have a meniscus and be off level by 3 / 8 of an inch but by adjusting the hose to note the point of change you can literally dead nut the point of level where being off is just a matter of the pencil mark. This is true for distances that are dependent upon the length of the tubing used. To use the system just set the bucket somewhere central to the interior of the house and have some blue masking tape or low stick tape. Now drag the hose to all the areas that you would like to check and make marks on the blue tape. Now you will be able to measure down to the floor and determine what is out and by how much. This is an extremely accurate way of determining what to shim and where. IF such a process is needed in your case. Also don’t worry about having to have the hose above the bucket. The air pressure will keep the water level working accurately even if you have to run the hose over a wall to get into another room as long as the working end is at the level of the water in the bucket. Try it to see whether this isn’t true. Hold the working end with the end open and have someone try to drain the hose by lifting it in the middle somewhere. That’s why it’s useful for doing forms. Armed with this information you can decide, dependent upon your finical situation and desire for perfection, whether to level the house or not. We do have to do remodels and have the additions go according to the existing structure. It is a hassle and especially for me because I am the trim carpenter too so there is a lot of fudging in these circumstances to make the job look right. I hate it but sometimes the clients just don’t have the money to really make it right.
*
Okay, Here's the update on the whole foundation situation. Went out today armed with every level and measurement device we could find. With the water level, we found the plane of the house to be off 1 3/8". With the grade level, the house appears to be off 1 3/4". The plane of the foundation for the addition varies up to 1 1/2" across the tops of the rebar. But, the height of the rebar posts varies from 8" to 11". Now, this is a problem. The excavator gave us a bid based on the architectural plans, which call for 12" deep footings.
So, when I called the excavator this evening, and told him what we found with the level, he told me he had just "guessed it was around 5" off." I hadn't realized at this point that the depth of the rebar was off as well, so I didn't mention it. But he says he can't come until next week to pour the footings because we asked him not to do it until we had checked out this 5" issue, which turns out not to exist. So I said we'll pour the footings ourselves, before it rains.
Okay, I know this sounds like a huge gripe-fest, but hey, I paid the guy already, and now I'll have to spend all day tomorrow in the bottom of this hole with a shovel, trying to get this job to the required specs. Then I've got to spend another day down there pouring the footings. So - how much of a refund should I ask for?
*Kristin,I'm going out on a limb here, but when you say "footings", are you referring to a 4 sided trench dug footer, which is to be below your frost line and which when poured with concrete, will be say, 24inches wide by 12 inches high? If so, your footer should have horizontal lengths of rebar, (normally 1/2 inch or 5/8 dia.) running the full perimeter. These horizontal pieces should be connected to your vertical rebar posts. The fact that the vertical posts are not a full 12 inches exposed from the bottom of the trench does not mean that your footer won't be 12 inches after the pour. Some contractors use vertical posts as height guages; which you seem to indicate is being done here. But when the concrete reaches this height, the contractor then uses a hammer to beat the rebar down into and below the finished grade. Is it possible that not all of those vertical posts are actually going to be used as reference markers? If so, the 8 inch rebar doesn't matter, and perhaps he plans to stretch a stringline 1 inch above those 11 inch posts in order to get you the 12 inches without him having to beat the other rebar down? If this guy is reputable, stay with him and let him do the pour. Rain will not affect the outcome when the time finally does come to pour the concrete. Since this man laid it out, let him finish it. If however you've lost all confidence in him, figure out what his daily rate is and ask him to return the remainder, and get someone else to finish the job. Unless you've done formwork and finishing in the past, leave this job to someone who is a pro.Davo304
*
Kristen,
I'll go with davo304 on this one.
Ed. Williams
*Careful kristin,Doing the work yourself will not necessarily guarrenty you a refund. Also you could void his responsibility on the work done. You have to notify the contractor in writing that you intend to remove him or backcharge him for any work that you consider deficient.Check with your architect first, going down 12" may not be as important as being founded on undisturbed soil.Careful not to jump to expensive conclusions. Double check first. Gabe
*Kristen,Nor will doing the work yourself guarantee you of quality work.No Offense.Your footings are the very base of your house. Absolutely one of the worst places to make mistakes (foundation and framing being two other poor places to screw up).You asked him to hold off. He got something else going. Now you should expect to have to wait for him 'till next week. Sad, but true.The excavation wasn't out of level?That's good.Maybe the guy was just tired and noticed that the house looked out of level, so he checked it with a two foot level and then extrapolated off the page yielding 5". The house is roughly 1-1/2 or 1-5/8 out of level. No big deal.As for the rebar, When I did foundations in Montana, we placed 8' vertical rebar from the footings and formed the walls around them with horizontal bar every four feet.In Tennesse, they don't require any vertical rebar (block foundations). Just horizontal in the footings.I guess my point is that if your rebar is only 8"-11" long, it isn't intended to protrude from the surface of your footings (to tie into foundation wall). In fact in that case, the rebar should be held below the surface a couple of inches -- same goes for ends. Exposed rebar actually creates a pocket for structural failure.The level of the footings should be determined from the top of the forms. The height of the rebar is inconsequential (as long as it's below the surface).Now, is he using the rebar stakes to determine height? Or are they just adding structural integrity?Besides all of that, if you're angry and you try your first footing pour in the rain and it's not square or level how do you think he's going to react when you want him to lay the block? Not to mention the framing and finishing pandora's box you'd open.You'd be way ahead of the game if you call him up and appologize for jumping the gun and tell him that next week would be fine.Unless of course, the guy's a loser.Did you check any references before you hired him? (It might be a bit awkward asking now)...Incidently, now when people ask for my references, I give them a nicely laid out packet with clients on one page and builders on another. Then I politely ask for names of contractors they've delt with in the past.Good Luck,Dan
*
We are putting an addition on a 100+ year farm house. The original foundation is stone, topped by 2 1/2 story balloon frame. The addition 20' long, set against a 28' original wall. The excavator came out on Friday, dug the foundation and poured stone. Footings set to be done Monday. Before he left on Friday, he told me that my house was 5" lower at one end of the 20' addition. My thought was that he must have dug 5" lower on one side. He's insisting the problem is with the house, not with his digging or measurement. He wants to make this up in the block wall, but I don't think that's a good idea. I've already called to tell him to hold off on the footings until Tuesday. Now, how do I check to see where the problem is? I've heard that a water level might be useful, any tips on making/using one? Thanks.
Kristin
*
Thanks for all your input. I guess I should clarify a few things. I'm not working on this alone. I've got lots of help here. The foundation of the addition is something we had been planning on doing ourselves, but got into a little bit of a time crunch. So, we decided to contract this out so that we could continue working in other areas. We have used this particular excavator in the past, and everything was fine.
When I spoke with him about rescheduling, he suggested that we do the pouring ourselves. The reason I'm so upset with him is that we received a bid based on the specs in the building plans. Then, he told me that pouring less concrete would be fine, because "(he's) done a lot of these, so (he) sort of knows what's okay." Incidentally, when he told me to pour myself, he told me to order 3 1/2 yards of concrete. I figured it out myself, to 4 1/2 yds. We poured today, and used all but a bucket full.
I don't have a problem with the delay we would have had - I understand that totally. My problem is with him shorting the work and materials, using the wrong materials, and wasting my time by not checking his own work. His questions to our crew concerning how much money I have, his complaints about overbooking himself, and his inability to multiply 6*8 sort of tipped me off that he was not giving us his best price, best work, or full attention. I understand the need to respect the work of a professional, but I'll be looking elsewhere next time, and looking for at least a partial refund now - at least for the concrete, rebar, and labor I already paid him for.