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Leveling; Stupid Question #1675

Wayfarer | Posted in Construction Techniques on November 11, 2003 08:09am

I was watching “Ask T.O.H.” (so shoot me) last evening and the landscape guy and HO were putting in some drainage to a dry-well (how they calc’d the size is beyond me–obviously a behind-the-scenes thing).  The landscape guy was using a level to get proper flow on the drain pipe and what I thought, said something about 1/4 quarter of the bubble off center equals the standard 1/4″ per foot drainage.  Is that true?  And half the bubble off center would equal 1/2″ per foot drainage slope?

I’m just wondering because I’m hoping to have a driveway put in soon.  Not that, that’s a big deal, but where I live, I need to make about a 12-foot (City easement) transition from the roadway to my new driveway.  No curb and gutter; probably will never happen in this 70-year old subdivision atop a hill, so want to make it as driveable as possible.  Talked to the Public Works engineer today for a second time and she suggested I get one of the public works inspectors on board to kinda help me lay out some stuff.

Incidentally, I was a bit miffed when in the City today; why should I pay a USD$232.00 encroachment fee for improving the bloody city’s easement?  What the f*ck is up with that?  I mean it is basically dirt and some asphalt and they then have the gall to require that I put in a six inch thick concrete approach.  I’m being a bit sarcastic and the engineer is right, it will be good for me in the long-run, but still…

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Replies

  1. DavidxDoud | Nov 11, 2003 08:18am | #1

    I happened to catch part of that show too - - I can't help you with your questions (except 'what's up with the encroachment fee' -answer: it's how they make money)

    I did notice as they layed the perforated pipe to the drywell,  they had the perforations horizontal - so the pipe will have to be half full before the water can leach out the holes - not gonna happen till the entire system fills up to that level - -

  2. jimshome | Nov 11, 2003 08:26am | #2

    "1/4 quarter of the bubble off center equals the standard 1/4" per foot drainage.  Is that true?"

    Approximately. Sort of. ;)

    I take an easier way when I have to use a level to check for pitch. All of my levels 24"and longer have an extra line on each side of the bubble. I'm sure you've seen them around from time to time.

    Guess what it is for?

    You got it! Exactly 1/4" per foot and no " that looks like a quarter bubble to me"!

    Jim

     This above all, to thine own self be true, and it must follow as the night the day, Thou cans't not then be false to any man      Hamlet

  3. FrankB89 | Nov 11, 2003 08:36am | #3

    When laying a pitch as you describe, it takes the guess work out by taping a little block to one end of your level....2' level, 1/2" block; 4' level, 1" block, etc.   Then you can just center the bubble per normal.

     

    1. User avater
      Wayfarer | Nov 11, 2003 09:00am | #4

      Thanks guys, I can always get the straight poop here.

      David, actually, those perf's aren't horizontal, they are either turned down or up (I forget the degree they are offset and I use to sell the stuff in the mid-80's under a former division of John-Mansfield) and this has been a major topic of discussion here in the past.  Basically, in drainage, you want whatever "bed" you have to absorb moisture/water till it is enough to fall into the perforations and then head downhill.  There could be an application to have the perf's turned up, perhaps in a septic line (I forget now).

      Jim, I've probably seen them, but didn't "notice" what they were for!  Same with the black diamonds on a tape measure; what is up with that/those?

      Notch, I like your approach because I can break out my six-footer and then with your attachment (I guess that would be an inch and a half block), place it on a 12-foot piece of lumber and get a good reference.

      Thanks...

      1. User avater
        BillHartmann | Nov 11, 2003 09:21am | #5

        If you look closely while he said 1/4 bubble it was clear that the bubble was "exactly" centered over the mark. I would call that 1/2 bubble.

        They did "mention" the sizing. It is fairly simple. Look at the surface area of the roof. There is an FHB article on sizing cutter on the FHB web site that discuss this and also gives some maps for estimating worse case rain fall.

        But if you remember from the show he indicated that they would be getting thousands of gallons. And they did not give the size of the hole, but kinda estimating how many 55 gal drums would fit into the space I would say that it was 250-500 gallon.

        BUT, they really did not expect that to handle any significant rain fall. Tht is why they had the pop off and the the driveway is the real drain. Really I expect that the main purpose of the drywell was to handle snow melts and the like. So that it would not flow out on the drive and freeze.

      2. jimshome | Nov 11, 2003 09:32am | #6

        "Same with the black diamonds on a tape measure; what is up with that/those?"

        I've forgotten the origin of the black diamonds. Locally they're called a california stud mark.

        Stanley says they are a stud marking just like 16" only they are 19". If you check they come out even on an 8 foot center. If you are hanging 8 foot material horizontally (like sheet rock or sheathing) It saves one stud per every eight feet.  This above all, to thine own self be true, and it must follow as the night the day, Thou cans't not then be false to any man      Hamlet

        1. User avater
          Wayfarer | Nov 11, 2003 08:59pm | #7

          Bill, that makes sense i.e. calculations or design they did.  In a way I guess it's kind of acting as "sump pump" in that they are getting the water "up" and out on to the street.  I was a bit interested in that segment since I've got some large, two 4'x5'x20' or so drywells on my project.  Had I built forty years ago, the run-off would be like it always had been; water runs off my lot, down through the neighbors, and then onto the street and stormdrain.  Now the City is into "containment" of runoff and what not.

          Jim, I see the logic, but this would be only for interior walls/partitions then?  The diamond is probably some old English "standard" like "stone" (about 14.2 pounds or so)...it's ironic to hear the English or their English speaking counterparts, Aussies, who use metric, but still refer to "stone" in their weight of measurement.

          Sometimes I really think it would be a lot easier to use metric.  I keep getting my measurements on my trimwork to the 1/8" and then if I'm writing the measurements down, or talking them out, I will note a "+" or "-" meaning to add or subtract a 1/16"...I couldn't be bothered with writing out and figuring things in 1/16th's

          1. HammerHarry | Nov 11, 2003 09:22pm | #8

            Uh, oh, those black diamonds again.  You can find about a gasillion threads here about them, but just for simplicity (you figure it out) 8 ft = 96 inches; 96/5 = 19.2.

      3. BigDawg | Nov 12, 2003 10:43pm | #15

        The black diamonds on the tapes are for measuring in cubits.  Yes, cubits...like in the bible.  Why they're there I don't know, but it a little piece of trivia I picked up somewhere.  And most likely it displaced some knowledge that was truly important.

  4. JohnSprung | Nov 11, 2003 10:07pm | #9

    It probably varies with the make and model of level.  You can find out directly for your own level just by putting it on a bench, shimming the low end to get it level, and then propping one end up with a block to get 1/4" per foot. 

    BTW, while you've got it shimmed level, try turning it 180 degrees to see if it's reading right.

    -- J.S.

    1. User avater
      Wayfarer | Nov 11, 2003 10:27pm | #10

      John, duh!!! Gawd, I don't know why I didn't think of that!  Man alive, I try to streamline things and look at the obvious, but somehow some things just completely escape me.

      Cairo, I do remember some discussion in the past about the diamonds, and with the search feature here on Breaktime so poor, I wouldn't even begin to want to search for past threads.  No biggie, it was just a side-bar anyway; plus, I have no idea what you're getting at! ;-)

      1. mitch | Nov 12, 2003 12:12am | #11

        do not EVEN get me started on cities charging fees, permits, etc for making improvements on their f***ing easement!

        m

        1. Remodeler | Nov 12, 2003 11:26pm | #16

           

           

          >do not EVEN get me started on cities charging fees, permits, etc for making >improvements on their f***ing easement!

          I will remain nameless and faceless, but...  I just bid a low six-figure job to a city utility who is very, cost-conscious.  Part of the new utility runs through someone's yard and to acquire the easement this utility gave the guy a sanitary lateral to take him off his septic.  Presented as such.  However, I happen to know 1) the lateral will stop at the edge of the easement, necessitating this guy pay a contractor to make his tie-in probably 1-2 thousand $$ which I don't think he realizes, and 2) the usage fee said utility will charge him to tie in will probably offset a good part of the cost of said lateral.

          remodeler

          1. mitch | Nov 13, 2003 12:05am | #17

            F***ERS!  ;-)

            our problem stemmed from our tearing out 2500 sq ft of crappy lawn and overgrown bushes (our entire front yard) and putting in a gorgeous garden, including rows of lavender (100 plants), and a flagstone terrace wall up the low hill from the street.  people would actually stop their cars in the middle of the street to gawk.  well, because every inconsiderate jerk would let their #%$^&*% dog wander through it, we put up a custom milled, arts & craft style, low red cedar fence.  we didn't have the posts set before a city inspector showed up!  "encroachment into the easement, blah, blah, variance, blah, permit application, photos, plan drawings, blah, blah, $150 app fee, $50/yr, etc."  for trying (and succeeding) to beautify our neighborhood.  all the more irritating due to the fact we lived next door to absolute white trash slobs that the city would almost never do jacksh!t about their junk cars, furniture on the lawn, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc (the complaint letter to her conservators and the city ran 23 pgs)!

            i said don't get me started.

            m

          2. DougU | Nov 13, 2003 06:04am | #18

            Mitch

            That city inspector is probably a HFH volunteer!

            Doug

      2. HammerHarry | Nov 12, 2003 12:56am | #12

        Using tji floor joists, they are typically spaced 19.2 inches center to center; this gives you 5 per 8 ft sheet of ply, as opposed to 16 inches center to center for normal floor joists, which gives you 3 per 4 ft, or 6 per 8 ft; saves on one joist.  so that's waht the diamonds are for.

        1. bd342 | Nov 12, 2003 04:11am | #13

          I thought diamonds were for "ever""

          1. tenpenny | Nov 12, 2003 08:33pm | #14

            Or at least a girl's best friend.

            Straight cut or pear shaped, these gems don't lose their shape....

  5. User avater
    hammer1 | Nov 13, 2003 07:15am | #19

    Levels are not all alike. That guy has done hundreds and can probably do it in his sleep. That's his level too! You need a laser level,builders level or a transit and the knowledge of how to set it up and use it. This is not a job for guessing.

    1. mitch | Nov 13, 2003 06:10pm | #20

      i'm not touching that one- i've taken enough heat lately over the HFH stuff!

      m

    2. User avater
      Wayfarer | Nov 13, 2003 09:58pm | #22

      Yeah Hammer and Cleric, I'm just trying to get some "rough" idea of leveling and planning for my encroachment to the street, which is actually pretty long; almost 12 feet on part of it.  As the street flows into the side of the hill and away from me, there probably will never be curb and gutter on my side of the street; and so is the City indicating this (no funds, and no reason to put gutter on that side of the street).  So now do I have the encroachment pitched up to drain back to the street, or drain towards the driveway and house?  Most people on this side of the street have the latter not the former.

      The public works engineer suggested I meet with the publics works inspector to kind of decide what to do.  I'll set up a time next week or so.  I gotta head down to Anaheim, CA for a few days for a show.  But I will leave a lot up to my concrete contractor on how he figures it should be done once I get some guidelines from the City inspector.

  6. RobertSteele | Nov 13, 2003 08:09pm | #21

    Well I am not going to run threw everyones answers here cause I want my own apinion and im going to base that on my experience ...ie  hay Marc did you level the kitchen wall >>>> Yes I did <<<<< hmmm thats funny Marc the level is showing its out 1/4over 8 feet...>>>oh ya well the bubble is between the lines >>>>its not centered beween them Marc ,next time be more precise use the tool the way it was meant tobe used. ........So my guess is unless the Landscaper with the level (hahaha) is using a 16foot length I dont think he has his degree towards the drywell set precisly.                                   

                   H D a N  ......head down and nail

    My approuch would be to secure a level line horisontically and then go from there...oh and leave my spelling alone Im a carpenter  eh

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