Has anyone had any luck with Leviton’s contractor grade receptacles lately? I recently purchased some for some add ons and spent way too much time trying to get a hook of 12 guage wire on a screw.
The problem is that where the wire sits on the receptacle side, Leviton changed the design and instead of an open flat below the screw, they molded a small channel for the wire to sit in which makes it very difficult to seat the wire around the screw.
Add to that if you try to remove the screw entirely and screw it back in with the wire under it, the screw won’t start threading due to the thickness of the wire and most annoying, the threaded bar the screws are attached to will not stay in one position, it has a lot of up and down slack.
The molded channel is main problem. They changed this design because the old style had a flat opening like everyone elses.
The Sicilian
Replies
The fact that you mention a "movable plate" and that you say it is "contractor grade" leads to a suspicion that this is the type where you push the wire into a hole in the back of the device and then tighten the screw.
This is different from the "back stab" type where-in you just stick the wire in and that's it. Did you read the instructions?
~Peter
No I didn't read the instructions, I installed them as I always have and I already returned them and bought the Pass and Seymours. You do bring up a good point that maybe I bought the wrong ones but I was sure I did not. Now next time I am over there I will check them again. When I returned them last week I checked the shelf stock and found the same units.
The Sicilian
If these are the models I think they are PM22 got it in one. Easy mistake to make if your used to the other method and don't notice the difference. Done worse myself. Not my finest day either.
way too much time trying to get a hook of 12 guage wire on a screw.
I haven't had this problem. But your receptacles may be designed for 14 guage wire. For 12 gauge you should use a 20amp plug, a little more expensive but it should solve your problem.
You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
marv,
It's misleading to say "For 12 gage, you should use a 20 amp plug...", because the only time a 20 amp receptacle is required is on an individual 20 amp branch circuit with a single receptacle. In other words, on a dedicated 20 amp circuit with only a single outlet. See NEC 2002, 210.21(B)(1).
To clarify this, a single receptacle is single contact device on a strap--the kind that takes the cover plate with the single round hole in the middle. In contrast, the common receptacle outlet we all know and use is really a duplex receptacle. It'll take two plugs.
On a 20 amp circuit with more than a single receptacle, the Code explicitly allows a 15 or a 20 amp receptacle to be connected to a 20 amp branch circuit (NEC 2002, 210.21(B)(3))
This 12 gage/20 amp receptacle belief is a common misconception. I was once working on a custom home being built by an owner-builder who thought he's save some $$ by installing the receptacles himself. He'd insisted on using 12 gauge romex for the lighting and general use receptacle circuits, even though he planned to protect them at 15 amp (voltage drop was not an issue--he just wanted things overbuilt). He wanted to reduce T&M costs, so without consulting me, he bought ALL 20 amp receptacles and installed them. An entire house full.
It was funny to see his expression when I told them that he'd spent a lot of extra money for 20 amp outlets that weren't needed, and that he'd have to either protect the circuits at 20 amps or change out the receptacles for 15 amp ones. And his wife's reaction was great, she was doubly pissed because she didn't like to look of the "T" socket on the outlets, but he'd insisted they were needed to match the 12 gage wire.
And, as he was wiring in the smoke detectors, he understood my point about 12 gage wire being a PITA to work with.
Live and learn. I structure my contracts differently now, and more carefully choose the owner-builders I work with. Not that I don't like working with owner-builders--I've subsequently had some great experiences with owner-builders.
Cliff
Thank-you for straightening out that situation so well. I have been gritting my teeth every time someone insists that a 20A receptacle is the only way to go, or even beneficial in most cases, for a 20A circuit in residential construction. A common misconception. I have been avoiding trying to set things right in peoples minds. I was wishing, being lazy, for some other person to handle it. Well done.
I bow to the Code.
But I still think his receptacles were made for 14 gage wire.
You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Edited 12/17/2003 9:01:56 AM ET by Marv
No the terminals are desgined for 20 amps.
The 15 amp devices are spec'd to be used as feed throughs on 20 amp circuits.
As soon as I get over to the store to check those out again I'll post the info on the package. I always use 15amp receptacles on a 20amp line unless the situation requires otherwise. Of course commercial grade not residential. The price difference is not much at all.
Now if you buy commercial grade switches, a big jump in price makes you think twice. I think most commercial grade switches are about $5 or more.
The Sicilian
Now if you buy commercial grade switches, a big jump in price makes you think twice. I think most commercial grade switches are about $5 or more. Man, I can attest to that fact. My client wants black devices. Turns out white, ivory, brown and grey are easy to find and cheap. Black only comes in commercial grade and they're dam expensive. On top of that we can't even find a 4-way switch from any mfgr. Then we need a double switch plate for a ceiling fan control and light switch, so it's a decora & plain...might not be available.
Do it right, or do it twice.
While I am not an electrician I have an opinion on the receptacle issue. We do home repairs, light remodels, ocassional kitchens and bath total rehabs. We only use spec grade receptacles and switches. They cost $1.60 each here in boxes of 10. Never had a call back and in a residential enviroment they are almost a lifetime product. I have a commercial maintenance background and after taking the two apart I personally would never fell comfortable using a contractor grade piece, even though they are an industry standard. I do however use 15A on 20A circuits but am now having second thoughts after reading Barry's thoughts as I also live in Ohio. DanT
Dan I agree with the 39 cent ones, which btw are only available in 15 amp version.
But my understanding is that all of the 15amp DUPLEX recp's are rated for a maximum 15 amps per connection, but that the total unit is rated for a max of 20 amps total between the two.
And I know of several electricans that claim that within a grade/brand line the only difference between the 15 and 20 amp devices is the slot in the face.
Next time you're in HD or Lowe's pick up a 20 amp and a 15 amp and look at them for yourself.
Barry
I did look at the difference.
I looked at the Cooper spec grade CR-15 & CR-20. The face, the screw terminals, the strap, the back, and what parts of the contacts through the slots that I could see all appeared to be IDENTICAL. The only 2 differences I saw where the slot and the 15 or 20 amp rating molded in the case. Now that part of the contact under the horizontal slot may well be different, but that does not make any affective difference when used with the 15 amp plug. And that part of the edge contact that is visable on the 15amp socket looks the same as the 20 amp one.
And I looked at the BR-15 and BR-20. Those are the same as the CR-xx except allowing backwiring. Again no obserable differences other than the slot.
I looked at the commercial grade 5252 (15 amp) and 5352 (20 amp) devices. They where in plastic bags with printing so it was hard to see the details, but again what I could tell they where identical.
Then at HD they had the Levitons.
Again the CR-15 and CR-20 where identical except for the horizontal slot. They only had BR-20's so I could not compare them.
The 5252/5352 where in boxes that I could open. Again no obserable differences.
Sorry, I don't buy that there's no difference between a 20 amp receptacle and a 15 amp receptacle other than the horizontal slot.
To be A bit cynical, at less than half a buck, why not go buy two duplex outlets and apply a ball pein hammer to them like a black walnut and pick the meat from the shells and realy compare them?
To me, an electrical engineer first and an amateur electrician second, why the deuce don't we label our switch capacity at what it really is - 12 amps/16 amps - and let those who are not in the fraternity figure out what they can safely hook up? Apparently there are no exceptions on the 80% rule, so why call a true 12 amp device by some other name? We all know thee are safety factors involved in all standards. I'll betcha that a "15 amp" device can safely carry more than that. So... why add in another safety factor and derate the devices in all conditions? Please tell me why it makes sense.
And, next - I never have been able to get anyone, licensed electrician or county inspector, tell me why I can have a 200 amp svc w/ a pair of 100 amp main breakers with approx 400 amps of ckt breakers below them. Now, I know that everything will not be fully loaded at the same time, so we are playing w/ probabilities here. That being said, where is the rule of thumb/guideline for how many amps worth (not quantities) of CB's you can install in a svc panel? The only time I have ever, in 45 yrs, seen a main ckt pop was when a house was so obviously wired w/ the two legs out of balance that I knew immediately what caused the problem. House was old, and due to be rewired. Had a detailed discussion w/ the electricians about how to redistribute load based on our experience in the house. Most of the problems were in the kitchen w/ the heavy appliance/device loads.
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
"Then we need a double switch plate for a ceiling fan control and light switch, so it's a decora & plain...might not be available."
If you need a few of these, you could see how that new Krylon spray for plastics matches the standard black plates. I wonder how well that would work on the actual switches---esp. when a four way decora is about $10.
Cliff,
Why do some of you think that it is a good idea to put 15 amp devices on 20 amp circuits? Because the Code allows it? Do you think that there is no internal difference between a 15 amp receptacle and a 20 amp receptacle?
Barry
Barry,
Well, I figure we're talking about residential occupancies here. Houses.
In my post, I intended to address the impression left by marv that 20 amp outlets were required on 12 gage circuits. While I wasn't promoting use of 15 amp receptacles on 20 amp circuits, yes, I do think it's okay to use high quality 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit. That's because the're sufficient for the job and because there's no reason to spend more money than you have to (even if it's someone elses money).
With the exception of space heaters, hair dryers, and vacuum cleaners, I can't think of any common appliance that draws anything close to 15 amps, much less 20. Even kitchen appliances, with the exception of big microwaves, generally draw 10 amps or less.
It boils down to the fact that a receptacle outlet (and I'm thinking about one half of a duplex) is not generally going to be called on to supply more than a few amps on a regular basis. So why spend the money for a 20 amp outlet? The circuit is protected at 20 amps, and may even on occasion supply close to 20 amps--but not from a single receptacle.
There is an instance where it's appropriate to install a 20 amp receptacle. That's when there's only a single receptacle on the 20 amp laundry circuit (Code required).
When was the last time you saw a power tool or appliance likely to be used in a house that had a 20 amp cord cap on it--where you'd need the capacity (and the blade configuration) of a 20 amp receptacle?
And yea, sure, there's a big difference between the guts of a 20 amp receptacle and a 39 cent, 15 amp receptacle. Like blade contact area, blade retention, studiness (full wrap around strap), durability (better plastics), terminal quality, and so on. But I don't think there's really any difference between a commercial grade 15 amp outlet and a 20 amp outlet. There's some difference between a spec grade 15 amp and a 20 amp. Not enough to justify the higher cost, in my opinion.
Even in custom homes--where the owners don't bat an eye about spending outrageous amounts of money on floor tiles or countertops--virtually no one cares about the quality of the outlets. If I was to bid a job based on either 20 amp, or commercial grade 15 amp, receptacles throughout a 5000 SF house, I'd be at a competitive disadvantage, because most guys use the 39 cent pieces of junk. I use spec grade, and feel like I'm looking out for the homeowner best interests (as well as my own, not having to worry about call backs).
So, I install materials that I feel offer the best trade-off between quality and cost. But it's funny, I've had homeowners complain about how hard it is to plug in and remove the plugs from the spec grade outlets!
Merry Christmas,
Cliff
Edited 12/18/2003 11:21:12 PM ET by CAP
That's interesting. While I agree with avoiding the dirt cheap outlets I have found, particularly with Cooper and 'Pass and Seamor' that their low end, not quite as low as 39 cents but around 55 cent each, are quite good. IMHO the general quality level of even the low end units, generally across the line, have improved.
I am impressed with the newer welded construction methods where a nylon front is ultrasonically welded to a PVC back. I have yet to see one give up at the weld and I consider it to be a superior method to even the wrap around back strap. I am less impressed, by comparison, with the Leviton spec grade units as I have had the front separate while tightening the screws. Not a good sign.
I find that the low end of any of the better manufacturers to be quite good. The only receptacles I use spec grade on are the areas prone to frequent use and abuse. Kitchens, bathrooms, shops and hall receptacles can benefit from a bit sturdier construction.
I whole heartedly agree that 20A receptacles, other than those that are code mandated, are overkill.
Hi Cliff,
Well,most of the time the electricians agree here anyway.On this one though I have to respectfully offer a differing opinion.My biggest concern obviously is the possibility of overloading a 15 amp receptacle on a 20 amp circuit. Does the NEC allow it ? Yes, and I think that is one of the weak sections in the Code.Sometimes they over do it with their specifications and at other times(due to manufacturer and contractor association influence I think) they allow questionable practices.Another practice is allowing metallic conduit as the ground path.Someone might make the same argument here that you have,only saying that the Code doesn't require a ground wire in pipe or flex,that most of the time it's OK,and that spending money on green wire is wasteful.I used to work for a contractor who had had the web between his thumb and index finger burned away when he completed the circuit on a rooftop unit he was working near.The flex had pulled out of the connector and no ground wire had been pulled.The original installation was completely within code,but saving the cost of a ground wire proved to be a penny wise and a pound foolish.
O.K., do these receptacles get overloaded? Where you and 4Lorn live,in California and Florida, maybe portable space heaters aren't as common,but here in northern Ohio a lot of households have them,and by themselves they are putting a serious load on a 15 amp receptacle.At Thanksgiving we went to visit my wife's aunt and there was a houseful of people.The kids had all migrated to the basement where they were watching TV,which was plugged into the same receptacle as a 1700 watt space heater.I moved the heater and told her aunt not to plug the heater and anything else in together.The heater by itself draws about 14 amps.
Do I ever need the T-slot for a 20 amp cord cap? No,the only thing I ever use that has a 20 amp cordcap is our Greenlee SuperTugger at work.But I do think that 20 amp receptacles are a lot better made,for the reasons that you point out,and that that is the reason manufacturers are able to rate them as being able to safely carry 25% more current.Better to put 15 amp receptacles on 15 amp circuits and 20 amp receptacles on 20 amp circuits.
As to the cost,what's even a buck a receptacle going to do to the cost of a house? And by the way I don't see any difference here between a commercial or residential setting.My dad was an electrical estimator and one of his favorite points he used to make to us was that in electrical work Rule #1: Material is cheap. and Rule #2: Labor ISN'T. Of course material really isn't that cheap,but his point was that your control over material costs is very small compared to the control that you have to have on labor in order to survive.At $20,$30,or $50 an hour for labor,the price difference between 15 and 20 amp receptacles isn't anything.I know that customers like to focus on glitzier things than receptacles when building a new home Cliff,and you have to deal with the sales side of things more than I.So remind them that building codes are absolute minimums,and that one of the elements of Fine Homebuilding is using high quality materials that out perform those that are the minimum required.Tell them that last year there were 67,800 house fires due to electrical causes,and that in each one of them things that usually worked day in and day out,suddenly didn't.
And a Merry Christmas to you Sir,
Barry
And to Sicillian,if you're still with your thread,the only molded plastic I've ever seen underneath the screw on a receptacle is a wire bending feature.Instead of using the hole in your stripper handle to bend a loop in solid wire,you strip the amount on the strip gauge,put the very end in the plastic hole,and use it to hold the wire as you wrap it around the screw.
Barry,
I understand what you're saying, Code is the bare minimum for safety. And you've got a good point there, the cost of an electrical installation is mainly labor.
There are cases where I'm willing to exceed code even if the client doesn't care and won't pay for it. I do pull in a grounding conductor in whenever I use Greenfield or thinwall, for just the reasons you mentioned. Seen way too many cases where the pipe has pulled out of the coupling. And I don't use AC cable either--it's MC for me, bro!
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year,
and as Tiny Tim said, "God bless us, every one".
Cliff
Re: "The heater by itself draws about 14 amps."
If that heater had a 15A cord cap, one with two parallel bars, it is not approved to use it in the US. Any legal appliance with a 15A cord cap should not draw more than 12A, 80% of the circuit capacity. If the appliance draws more than this it must come with a 20A cord cap, one with the neutral bar perpendicular to the other to make sure it gets plugged only into a 20A circuit.
Installing 20A receptacles in a home with only #12 wire, 20A is fine if you care to spend the money for little benefit. Exactly what 'fine' homes depend on space heaters? The real danger comes when you have to install 20A receptacles and the wiring is a mix of #12 and #14, 15A.
While a well trained electrician would never, unless under duress, install a 20A receptacle on a #14 wire a less trained helper or apprentice might not be so careful. I have seen just this at least once. To many receptacles are receptacles.
If you think a 1200w space heater on a 15A receptacle is dangerous try a 16A heater, 80% of 20A, with a 20A only cord cap plugged into a 20A receptacle installed on a 15A circuit. If the breaker works right few issues if not I hope you have insurance.
"If that heater had a 15A cord cap, one with two parallel bars, it is not approved to use it in the US. Any legal appliance with a 15A cord cap should not draw more than 12A, 80% of the circuit capacity. If the appliance draws more than this it must come with a 20A cord cap, one with the neutral bar perpendicular to the other to make sure it gets plugged only into a 20A circuit."
That touches on something I've never been able to make sense of, so I have to jump in. I've seen a number of tools and appliances, UL listed, with NEMA 5-15 caps, that draw more than 1440W. My counter top microwave is UL listed, and shows 1650W line load (I just checked, to be sure). NEC Table 210.21(B)(2) limits the maximum cord-and-plug connected load to 12A and 16A for 15A and 20A receptacles, respectively, but I've never seen an NEC reference limiting the load on the actual cord cap.
A 1650W microwave, drawing 13.75A, would be legal plugged into a 20A receptacle on a 20A circuit, but would not be legal plugged into a 15A receptacle on a 20A circuit (though the receptacle itself is legal on a 20A circuit, and is pretty standard in residential kitchens). Of course, a 15A receptacle is not legal on a 20A circuit in the first place (Table 210.21(B)(3), so that combination would yield several violations.
So even though it's a violation to load a 15A receptacle beyond 12A, Harry Homeowner doesn't know this, and probably doesn't care anyway (and really shouldn't have to know this), and the factory plugs fit a 15A receptacle, which may also be on a 15A circuit. I've never seen an appliance or tool with a factory 20A cord cap, including some pretty beefy hair dryers, and my microwave oven (and my 12.4A 240V Unisaw with factory 6-15 cord cap and UL listing, for that matter).
How is it that utilization equipment is sold to the general public that can be used, and in most cases is used, in a manner that violates the NEC? If the NEC requires a 20A circuit with 20A receptacle for equipment drawing more than 12A but not more than 16A, why isn't the equipment sold with a 20A plug? Is it due to a disconnect between UL and the NEC? Forcing the use of 20A plugs for such equipment would force compliance with the NEC on the part of the user (without them even knowing it), provided the building was wired correctly to start with. Something just doesn't make sense here.Be seeing you...