I was asked to help on a job, to set a steel beam in order to turn a 2 story living room into an upstairs bedroom.
Contractor doing the job offered me a decent payment to help him set a steel beam turning a non-loadbearing wall into a bearing wall. Wasn’t busy so I accepted. Couple of hours… quick pay, what’s not to like.
Well I should have balked when I asked how much it weighed…. He said “how should I know?”
So I now find out this guy has been BS’ing me … and homeowners. He in unlicensed and uninsured. I am going to check tomorrow if he has a permit on the job…. which I doubt.
This is new to me… I’m not used to someone BS’ing me and have never thought of checking out the GC when hired as a sub.
So am I screwed?
Replies
sledge ,
Depending on the rules in your state , out West here only the original GC has to post notices to the home owner and such . The subs work for the GC in good faith , if the
GC scams the home owner the subs are not liable the way I see it . The Faux GC could be in deep pucky , no ticket , no insurance , no permit . I hope you got your money already .
if it smells like BS then it probably is
regards dusty
Quit thinking so much.
You are hired labor, just do what you are asked. Permits , BSing, whatever is not your problem, do the work ,get paid move on.
Just keep the details on your own jobs on the up & up, and there is no worrys.
Uh, lets take a look at this.
Some unlicensed, uninsured guy is reconfiguring the structure of a house with a steel beam, doesn't even know what it weighs so I assume hasn't a clue if what it bears on will hold the weight of it, or the structure above.
Would you be in the mood to drop the dime on this guy?
Forgetting any possible liability on you for a minute, is the beam or the bedroom floor gonna fall on somebody? The GC doesn't seem to know so maybe the building inspector should help him find out the "hard way."
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
That's what I'm talking about.
I wouldnt think you'd be screwed, but since the guy is turning a curtain wall into a bearing wall, did he check the load path to the foundation?
If he didnt or if you saw anything else that may have been wrong with his method, I would pull the HO to the side and have a talk with him.
Aside from my concern about the load-bearing capacity of the structure under the beam, if he doesn't know it's weight, then he probably never ran the calcs on it to see if it fits the application. It could be too big or too small.
At any rate, if he never calc'ed the beam, I'm sure he never contemplated determining the load-bearing capacity of the structure under the beam.
Notify the inspector of your doubts. If this is a kosher job, there should be a PE stamped drawing certifying the structural integrity of that installation. No such drawing could mean problems for the GC.
Do what's right for the homeowner, it's your reputation, too.
maybe he is 100% legit... he gave you some work... and you assumed some things... just because he didn't disclose the weight to you... you "assume he doesn't know it... maybe he ordered it off a spec sheet and never looked at the weight... who knows...?
if i was you... I'd stay out of it... he paid you to help set the beam not come back and try to screw him...
I nor you... know the whole story.... maybe everyone knows whats up?
IF you know for a fact the beam is undersized and or it's install poses a danger... you MIGHT have an interest... other than that... man get a life
hate to sound harsh but this comes across as your own words "Wasn't busy " and this guy is out try'n to make something happen... maybe make'n sure his kids have christmas, pay a medical bill, help parents in need, who knows... but the last thing he needs is your help... he had work and you didn't and now you are the expert... dude mind your own business
p
OR, maybe he's a complete idiot and risking the stability of the structure...possibly endangering the owners.We don't know, of course, but I'm not sure if 'claming ignorance' is always the best solution when you think something might not be on the up and up.
Ponytl and Jayzog are making a good point.
I'm also with Ponyti and Jz on this one.
The OP doesn't really know if the beam is undersized. He's speculating without facts.
The question is one of liability. In this case, the hired hand would bear no liability becauase he's taking orders from the one that is liable. No signed contracts, no liability. At some point in time, if a major catastrophe occurred, the OP might have to testify about that conversation but let's face it: if every laborer had to re-engineer every job they are asked to do, nothing would get done. Do we really know if every stud and every header is suitable to carry every load that we ask it? I don't. I just nail them in and let nature take it's course.
We all would be nutty if we let every possible issue of liability govern our lives.
blue
You may be right - the "hired hand" may well be ultimately able to escape liability.
However, if the beam fails, the HO will probably file with his insurance. Insurance co will look to recover - they will sue the GC, but will probably also sue everyone involved.
If lucky, maybe the insurance company will let the hired hand be a friendly witness to testify to lack of license, etc. But if they don't sue everyone, they may limit the success and ability to recover of their case.
But, ultimately, I think you are right - after he spends $5K to $10K in legal costs, the hired hand would probably be found not liable.
Personally, it would not be worth the risk for me.
After I read your post I had to check your profile to see if your from California too!
A couple of years ago I would have agreed with those who say "no worries". But the recent experience
of some of my contemporaries here tells me that everyone is liable for the expense of fighting off lawsuits,
and its slightly less expensive to settle.I say if you smell a rat, kill it before it bites you!Tom
Blue I gotta disagree with you.
The GC is unlicensed and uninsured which is bad enough.
Number two he sounds potentially dangerous. Dont know for a fact that he is, but the stakes are very high in what he's up to on that house.
If the GC was up front and said no license, I'd say don't work for him. But the story line is it turns out somehow later to discover the guy has no license. If that's the story, I'd be pissed and given the potential danger to the HO, I'd drop the dime.
Forget liability. It's purely a question of doing what's right.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Very interesting question and not obvious to me what's right.
My initial reaction such as others is "not my business" and I couldn't bite the hand that helps feed me by ratting on the GC. The only concern I'd have if I was the OP is if a structural failure occurs and the HO's family is injured, I wouldn't forgive myself for not speaking out.
speakin' as a homeowner,.....i'd really prefer to know (any way i'm told) if something is poorly done,....i may not know what's right, and i may not even know if i need a PE, permit, load calculations, or even that the GC should have a license. if a HO is given all this info and still insists on a poor path, then well, it's on him.no matter what, though, and it's not fair, poor workmaship or ethics reflects on anyone even remotely associated with the job. you may just want a paycheck, but it may end up hurting you in the future.i applaud your concern.
always interesting to see who's willing to sell out integrity, quality, responsibility and liability for a quick buck.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
always interesting to see who's willing to sell out integrity, quality, responsibility and liability for a quick buck.
The homeowners?
"I can get a guy to do this cheaper. Can't be that hard"
I would walk away from that job. If something goes wrong you WILL be included in the suit. If you "knew or should have known" you put yourself at risk. I agree that you cant let every little possibilty of liability guide you, but if think the situation wrong, it probably is. Permits in most jurisdiction must be conspicuously posted so they can be seen, and certainly there should be architect plans somewhere.
The homeowners?
we prefer to call them the Plaintiffs.
Not knowing the case-law that would apply: is there a chance that after questioning the beam, the sub becomes "knowingly culpable" ? That means, did he become liable as soon as he suspected a future liability, but said nothing; it's like knowing there's going to be a bank robbery and not calling the police.
<!----><!----> <!---->
Phill Giles<!----><!---->
The Unionville Woodwright<!----><!---->
That's what I was afraid of, but it seems that since I did question it and was told by a higher authority, it was ok, I'm good. See it is not my responsibility to check the plans or call the engineer or have it re-engineered to cover butt. Since I asked, the chain of responsibility stopped just short of me.
Phill,
I agree with you, He may not be liable, but he may be negligent, which I believe is far worse.
Many things can go wrong, long after an install, at that point, inspectors will look at what work was done, and what was properly engineered and permitted.
Any homeowners claim for fire, wind damage, etc, will be an invitation for an investigation, you will be nailed hard if someone gets hurt.
I do not buy this BS that if you are a sub, you can do whatever the GC tells you, and you can not be liable. In Massachusetts if you suspect a violation, you are responsible to report it.
Will you pretend you did not know that the beam was incorrect? Remember you, as the installer of this beam, are supposed to be the expert, you should be able to spot the difference between the size specified, and the size installed.Take the high road, and bring it to the inspectors attention immediately.
Edited 11/19/2006 9:25 am ET by PearceServices
Edited 11/19/2006 9:27 am ET by PearceServices
Edited 11/19/2006 9:29 am ET by PearceServices
Blue, I agree with you from a practical POV and from a management POV, but I think two disussions have developed here, one about general principles such as chain of authority and liability and the other about the specifics of this case.In the later, I don't think you are right. It is pretty lear to me from the story provided that this GC is stepping out on a limb by essentially throwing the plaans away, working without license, insurance, or permit and possibly putting the HO liver and property values at risk. Yes, life is a stretch, but he is certainly not erring on the side of caution
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
this GC is stepping out on a limb by essentially throwing the plaans away, working without license, insurance, or permit and possibly putting the HO liver and property values at risk
At this point, those are only allegations. The OP couldn't find a license under the guys name. Here in Michigan, I can have another licensed builder pull the permit. It's legal and done all the time.
Did the OP actually ask the GC if he is licensed, or did he draw a conclusion based on his own faulty suspicions?
Did the scope or the plans change? perhaps if they did, the loading was different and the beam could be sized differently.
I've worked on about 300 jobs without actually seeing a permit. I know a permit is pulled after I've framed the job because an inspectorr shows up and puts red and green and orange tags on the job.
I"ve worked in situations where there was no foundation work. The builder pulls the permit after we get it roughed! It might not be by the book, but no one really cares: the builder enjoys a stellar reputation and we all do things by the book. Ive seen hundreds of basements dug before the permit arrives.
These are just some of the regional differnences. This particular GC might very well be a scumbag and the type that I'd like to see disappear but I'm not buying the advice that I should walk off a job because someone changed an I beam. I know for a fact that I'd have walked off at least 100 jobs and burned a lot of decent builder relationships for being so hardheaded. We routinely get things engineered after the fact. We've done it so many times that I wouldn't hesitate for more than ten seconds to give my carpenters orders to change a steel beam to a micro or vice versa.
Like I said, when I'm building a house, I make a lot of decisions. If the decisions are sketchy, I call the man above me first but I've mad the call, and trained Frank to make the call any time we think something makes good sense. I cannot remember one decision that we've made that we had to tear out our substituted members. In some cases, we've had to add jacks or hardware but those are the type of things that we know will happen when be make a change.
On the other hand....we've made a lot of money when the engineers have to switch things that we framed to their specs. Should I tell you the story of the Alcoa engineers assuring Kaufman and Broad that their 14' lightweight aluminum c channels were suitable for a large condo project?
blue
Lot of optionss and opinions possible, aren't there?None worth arguing, just stating.Srtrange thing about regional differences, We don't have strutural inspections locally, but start one with no permit and you can expect to be pay a hundred dollars a day in fines until it is orrected, either by getting the permit ( which can take six weeks on average) or moving the structure to the right location if situated too close to the shore or other setbacks. They are more concerned abour erosion and site concerns than with structural detailing, with some good reason.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I have confirmed he has no license. Our license procedure is pretty extensive requiring criminal/ credit and work history. He could be working hourly as an employee with the homeowner paying unemployment and SS tax... but I doubt it since I know his draw schedule.
Insurance, I don't know for sure but since his work truck was repo'd a couple of weeks ago, I have reservations that he's making liability insurance payments.
Did the scope change... maybe I couldn't read the beam size on the preliminary drawing, forgot my glasses and maybe he just read it wrong.
As for permit, he had a job a few months ago... at the next door neighbors house shut down for lack of permit. I'd like to believe having been caught before in the same neighborhood he wouldn't try that again.
Finding all this information out after the fact sucks, I don't know how to thoroughly check someone out before hand, but it the future I will attempt to do better. Since liability is no longer an issue the fact my name and face even appeared on the job is an embarrassment.
So the guy is undercutting the good guys trying to amke an honest living....
turn him in... but return the check/pay he gave you first.....
I guess I am only torn on this matter because you worked for the guy and accepted payment. I feel there is an obligation not to stick it to him after he has given you work and paid you. It's like stabbing him in the back after he helped you out.
But, I really can't stand these jerks that conduct business under-the-table and underbid us other contractors because we are busy paying for insurance, workers comp, etc....
In this particular situation, it's hard to take a stronger stance.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
I'm still wrangling with this one mentally. So I am applying it to other situations to see if my feeling are the same.<!----><!----><!---->
If I were starving and a person invited me into their home for a meal and during the course of my time there, I saw a sandwich bag of weed on their coffee table... would I leave and call the cops?<!----><!---->
In the same situation, assume you noticed any of a myriad of minor crimes... would you turn in the guy that just fed you?<!----><!---->
Obviously, If I witnessed a major crime I would do the right thing but as much as I despise a contractor like this, is it a major crime?<!----><!---->
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete, you are touching on the core of the question, I think.
Is this a "minor" crime? A victimless crime? Is it a safety issue?
It's clearly not a victimless crime if the HO is getting a structurally deficient job (assuming the HO is not complicit in the deficiencies). And, a structurally deficient job IS a safety issue. Granted, we don't know for a fact that it's a deficient job. But given what is at stake, if we have doubts, integrity demands that we don't turn a blind eye to the issue. And, why is it considered screwing the GC if we notify the BI? If everything is kosher, then there is no harm to the GC. If there are shady activities occurring, then keeping one's mouth shut makes us complicit in the deceit.
If everything is kosher, then there is no harm to the GC.
That is an excellent point.... yet, I think the assumption is that, from a paperwork standpoint, this guy has no license or insurance. So, there will be some form of harm to the GC.
If there is clear evidence that the structure is being inadequately built, then there is a larger and potentially dangerous problem and one that should be addressed, hoever, that is pure speculation.
however, if there is only the matter of this guy not having permits and the homeowner certainly must be aware that there have been no permits pulled...I have to say to leave it go.... I think.....
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Negligent is a mater of opinion. If I am told that my questions are of no concern by the powers to be and everthing is good. My options are walk off the job or investigate it... I'm being paid to get a job done. Perhaps the GC is correct I have been known to be wrong before. I suspect he is lieing to me to shut me up, but I really don't have the time or resouces to prove him wrong. That's not my job
Let's say you have a crane for 1 day to set trusses. 1 gets damaged, you know it's easily field repairable after installation. GC says set it he'll get the repair spec and get r done.... Now do you stop the job and wait for a new truss?or do you set it and believe the builder will have it repaired correctly? Are you responsilbe to come back and inspect the repairs were done to the truss mfg specs?
First off, I am paranoid about these types of things, and have walked away from jobs that I thought were not proper.
Secondly, I have done jobs that at the time felt like a slight risk, but later had second thoughts about my decision. I can honestly say that the projects I look back upon and regret are ones that I trusted others to make decision to compromise a job. Mostly because I was financially "vested" on these projects, I found it hard to walk away.
I learn from each of these indiscretions, and have adopted a philosophy of never doing jobs without permits, and never letting subs talk me into an easier way to do things. When faced with unforeseen issues, I have learned that it is OK to stop the progress until an acceptable solution is agreed upon by anyone, and everyone that should agree.
I believe you owe it to yourself to briefly discuss your issues with the engineer, and to confirm that a permit is posted.
I hope he's not bearing the steel beam on wood posts! That would be a give away he doesn't know what he's doing.
Just curious Joe but I have used wood posts to hold up steel beams many times . Always with engineers/inspectors approval. Why wouldn't you ?Rik
You're kidding!
Why should he be kidding? Nothing wrong with a steel beam bearing on a wood post, it's commonly done.
Are you really an architect? Licensed? Seems like you should know this if so.
Or maybe this is another example of why you want an engineer rather than an architect to seal your drawings.
An architects job is to design the visuals to make the building "look nice". The engineer's job is to design a sound structure.
You must've been bullied by a group or bully architects in your neighborhood while growing up.
Sorry, but the practice of steel beams on wood posts is not common practice here, maybe by you, but not here.
Just the facts, Joe.
Tell us why we have been wrong for all these years._______________________________________________________________
If you are what you eat, I'm fast, cheap and easy.
Thanks all for the info...
I did see a set of preliminary PE drawing, never a final draft and didn't read the 2 pages of boiler plate of the tiny print as I was without my reading glasses. It's not my job I really didn't care. Before attending this single day of work... I was told it was an 8 x 8 beam 14' long. Since I know steel is sold by the pound and I don't know them off hand I asked and he didn't know... Flag 1 there may be a problem.
When I got to the job I measured it and it wasn't the 8" x 8" I was told, it was 6 1/2" x 8", I asked what was up??? Is this the right beam? Was told don't worry about it.... Flag 2
He obtained the beam in less then 1 day from a company that went out of business today. I'm concerned he took what he could get and not what he needed... Flag 3
When I asked to see the drawing later to make sure I had a load point correctly supported, he left the drawings home... Flag 4
I was paid by check made out to my company just wondering my liability I will not be going back, as many other things set off my "this job is going to go south" detector. I am just alittle concerned of the exposure this dirtbag may have handed me.
Edited 11/17/2006 2:39 pm ET by sledgehammer
How do you know that he has no license or insurance?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Insurance is a guess... License, I checked the internets... got nothing.
Not having a license isn't the end of the world in Maryland, it protects the consumer and there are many ways around it.
I can't imagine that you have any liability. It's not your job. It's not your design. You weren't supervising the installation. You weren't in charge of anything. You weren't supplying materials. You weren't doing anything other than acting as labor for the other contractor.
Am I missing something?
Licensing, insurance, an engineer's stamp, or any other artifact doesn't mean the job is good or bad.
Around here licensing is a joke. It means you have a pulse and $40.
Most insurance is also a joke. Having read a few policies that subs provide there is very little that is actually covered. Someone can call themselves insured with insurance that only covers the installation of trim. No kidding. Anything else is outside the scope of the policy. Do we tell the best subs in our area that we don't want them unless they get better insurance? Sometimes. Sometimes not.
An engineer's stamp doesn't automatically mean it's a good design. We had one engineer spec a structural steel beam inletted halfway through a stud wall. Then another page showed a second beam inletted halfway through the same wall from the other side. I called the engineer to clarify that he wanted me to completely cut the wall in half. Another set of plans had a significant steel beam omitted. I just ticks me off every time double 2x8 headers are spec'ed for a 2' window. Some plans have beams and load paths with no footer whatsoever under the post. The list could go on and on.
A good field inspector can be helpful, but too often they are clueless about half of what is built.
Having spent most of my carpentry career in an area with few engineers or architectural plans, no structural building codes, and a few other missing job titles, 90% of what was built was done in house and the results by any standard was top notch. Carpenters were paid well and most had good heads on their shoulders. The 80%/20% rule applied there as it does now--20% of the contractors produced junk.
Now we litterally have an architect, an young architect sub who actually draws the plans, an architect who handles change orders, an engineer to test the soil, a sub that actually bores the holes, a historic consultant to decide on paint colors, a historic comittee to aprove the plans and colors, another engineer to mis-spec structural elements, a second structrual engineer for change orders, an excavator who subs out dirt removal, a footer sub, a foundation wall sub, a slab sub, a rock venier sub, sheetrock contractor, sheetrock delivery sub, sr hanger subs, sr taper subs, sr texture sub, sr punchlist sub, 7 inspectors, 10 suppliers, two plan reviewers, an interior design consultant, a landscape architect, a landscaper, a sprinkler sub, a water runnoff engineer, a lighting consultant, a kitchen design consultant, a flooring consultant, a mfg. paint consultant, two insulation subs, framing sub, truss supplier, truss delivery sub, crane sub, two concrete pump subs, three concrete suppliers, three equipment rental shops, a sub to run underground conduit, a plumber to tap into the main sewer, another plumber to bring the service to the house, a third plumber to plumb the house, another plumber to plumb the hydronic heating, an hvac guy to figure out the AC, another hvac sub to actually install it, a siding installer, the siding installer's sub who actually does the work, the window installer, the window installer sub who actuall does the install. a granite installer, a sub who rips out the old cabinets, a tile installer, a tile installer sub who rips out the old tile, painter, painter sub who fills holes and caulks, cabinet installer, cabinet maker, cabinet maker sub who handles finishing, the cabinet punchlist sub, the railing sub, the sub to the railing sub, the railing finisher sub, the gutter sub, the gutter installer sub, general carpenter sub, cleanup sub, finish carp sub, trim sub, punchlist sub, floor installer, floor installer sub who actually installs, floor finish sub, concrete floor finish sub, final construction cleaning sub, blind installer, power company, power company sub who actually hooks up to the meter, the gas company, the phone company, the sub who actually comes out to look at the phone, etc..
All this and 20% of it is still crap that I wouldn't want to be a part of.
I have confirmed to my satisfaction that I have zero liability. I suspect this guy is in way over his head and says whatever he thinks someone will believe, leading to my suspicions he's lieing. I was worried his inexperience would somehow become my liability.. but no longer.
The capper that relieved me was, I found out from another contractor on the job what his bid and payment schedule is. He was 50% lower then the next bid and he's going to run out of money before he runs out of job.
Poor homeowner.... did it to themselves.
There are many ways for a homeowner to protect themselves. It looks like they may have been either ignorant of all them or willling to turn the other way.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
So I was just asked to drive.And as we were departing- what are all those flashing lights following me for ?
Once your aware of some things it would be nice to help out the uninformed, that is if your feeling charitable.
I see several sides of this issue and don't know exactly how I would react here. Most of us have better hindsight than foresight, especially when in the middle of something.For future reference, if you want to know what a beam weighs, it is in the denomination of it, not that this would matter in this case, since he downsized it on his bargain hunting trip and pulled the papers out from under your nose.
But to weight a steel beam, for instance, I was sizing one with my steel guy today. Came up with a W8x28. That tells me that thios beam will be roughly 8" tall and weigh 28 pounds per foot. I'll have 25' long beams so I need to be ready to handle 700 pounds of ear-splitter.Before anyone asks, if you have ever banged the side of your head on steel, you know why we call it ear-splitter
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hindsight is right. Never thought I needed to check someone out for a small 1 day job.... but it didn't take long on the job before this wasn't passing the smell test.
I've set more then a few steel beams which I guess is why he called me, and was my surprise he had not a clue how much it wieghed. It was like I was asking him which weighed more a pound of steel or a pound of feathers? It's not a trick question, length times weight per foot equals how many strong backs needed.
And funny you should mention ear splitting. The job GC had his head in the joist bay during a controlled heave ho. Just like an egg won't break with even pressure he made less sense as the day went on.
what happen if the beam falls and cripples you doing installion, who has the insurance
Personally I have insurance... But my guess if the GC was hurt the homeowner, now being his employer would be in a world of hurt.
For future reference, if you want to know what a beam weighs,
The weight of the steel beam is stamped on the side. It was when I first started working in a steel yard at age 18, and it was stamped on the last steel beam I set.
I kinda chuckled to myself when the OP mentioned that he asked the boss how much it weighed and neither of them knew. I don't think I've ever participated in the hand raising of a beam without me mentally calculating the weight myself. I kinda just do a quick look at the stamp, then do some quick math and I quickly know if I'm going to participate, and how I'm going to participate.
Those are the things that a guy with no vertebraes does when faced with heavy stuff.
Anyways, I'm glad sledge came back on and stated that he had zero liability. I'm no lawyer, nor a judge but I don't see how the hired hands could possibly be liable. If that were so, every hourly worker would be entitled to scrutinize every license of everyone involved in a job. Every document of the contract would have to be opened up. I realize that there is madness in the legal world but I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep worrying about liability if I was a hired hand. There are a lot of guys on this forum that likes to run around warning about the sky falling, but I don't care...I've got a hard hat.
blue
I've still got vertebae, it's those cushiony sacs between the bones that are all squeezed out on me...
but I've hit my head enuf times to knock some sense into it.
hope not too much sense fell out the other side of it at the same time, LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
As I've stated before, it's not common practice in these parts. It's not fair for me to say you're wrong, because I don't know why you choose to do that. If you were a building one of my projects, and you did that despite what's on the drawings, then we would discuss the issue with the Owner, and you'd change it to what's on the permit approved drawings. In that case you would be wrong.
One of our consulting engineers approaches this the same way: steel to steel no matter what. Other engineers we've used have no problem with steel to wood. As long as the condition is vertical loading (or very, very close to it), there is no concern about moment and the steel can bear on nearly anything.
I've always said there are a number of ways to design something. Usually, none of the ways are wrong, just different. When it comes to structural, if you have someone who backs the design with calcs and stand behind the liability, great. Run with it.
It's engineer's bs that gets passed on with no real reason for it other than they don't like it, probably mostly commercial engineers who are dabling in residential construction and simply lack the experience.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Why do you assume that all engineers that differ with you are commercial?
Why do you assume that all engineers that differ with you are commercial?
Because engineers and architects that do a considerable amount of residential work take into account common residential building practices in their designs.
Why do you not appreciate the difference in building practices between commercial and residential?
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Why do assume that I don't appreciate the differences between residential and commercial practices (If you're not with me, your against me!)?
"It's engineer's bs that gets passed on with no real reason for it other than they don't like it, probably mostly commercial engineers who are dabling in residential construction and simply lack the experience."As a design engineer working in the commercial world, I think I can take offense on that one. While most carpenters are great at carpentering, not many of them have studied in depth on why things are done a certain way or how to determine if a given structural component will fail under a certain load. For those of us in an engineering position, most have spent 4 or more years in school (I spent 2 years part time and 5 years full time...so far) learning the engineering reasoning behind why things are done a certain way.When an engineer "doesn't like it", it's for a reason. Either something is sloppy or inadequate or both (or you pissed him off by insulting the Sci-Fi channel or his favorite brand of computer, so he's now going to make your life miserable). We all take pride in providing the builder (you) and the end user with a structurally sound end-product and that's why we piss & moan when someone in the field cuts a corner. Just keep in mind that E&O insurance isn't going to pay out if the design wasn't built to the engineer's spec.As for your comment about the commercial engineer dabbling in the residential world, sure, his design may be a little clunkier than you're used to, but generally speaking, it's cost will usually be in line with the residential only guy and you can hang your hat on the fact that if you build it to his spec, it will be the last thing standing in that house.Now, to address your issue one last time...
-The geenyus (I know that's not spelled right) in the field that you were working with knew nothing about sizing steel so you should have known there was a problem from your prior experiences with steel.
-he openly admitted to making a deviation from the specified beam. I would have gone home then and there.
-No American company makes a W8x8, although there is a W6x8.5
-In a longer span situation, any 8" beam will sag considerably under its own weight. Also, can you say bouncy floor syndrome?
-Working on a structure that requires steel without plans...you should know better.
-Continuing to work on a project where you know the guy doesn't know what he's doing and won't produce plans, should've called it a day then and there.We can all Monday morning QB this one into the ground, but the lesson learned should be to just do what the engineer's stamped drawing says and get written approval if you have to deviate from his design.
Edited 11/18/2006 3:43 am ET by Mr. B
he openly admitted to making a deviation from the specified beam. I would have gone home then and there.
We can all Monday morning QB this one into the ground, but the lesson learned should be to just do what the engineer's stamped drawing says and get written approval if you have to deviate from his design.
Vehemently disagree.
Designs are changed all the time in the area where I work. We routinely change parts and designs of the buildings we work on. It is not uncommon to make a structural change, then later get it appoved with an engineer's stamp at a later date. For us, it's a calculated risk. If we are wrong, and the engineer won't stamp it, we have to make it right before a house passes rough inspection.
Therefore, no conclusions can be drawn by the fact that the GC installed a different sized beam than was noticed on a set of plans a few days earlier. Un salaried tradesmen like the kind I've worked with over the years prefer to stay on the job and make some money for our families. We don't normally have the luxury of getting paid if we don't work.
Don't judge the working guys, nor this GC too quickly. There might be solid reasons why something was changed.
Sledge, what was the load on that beam? Give us the specifics and let the engineers judge it's worthiness.
blue
wow, that's one of those statements that buy lawyers new cars. when the builder's right, no one ever knows. But if there is a failure, the builder, the subs, and everybody else we can get our hands on is just road kill. Including the engineer, if he knew that it wasn't built to spec. There is just nothing, absolutely nothing, to say in defense.
Oddly, I'm not necessarily saying blue is wrong from a practical point of view. But you just better make sure that whatever you do, nothing fails and hurts anyone in the future.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
"It's engineer's bs that gets passed on with no real reason for it other than they don't like it, probably mostly commercial engineers who are dabling in residential construction and simply lack the experience."
As a design engineer working in the commercial world, I think I can take offense on that one. While most carpenters are great at carpentering, not many of them have studied in depth on why things are done a certain way or how to determine if a given structural component will fail under a certain load.
Are you suggesting that simply being able to engineer a solution that doesn't match common residential building methods is good practice? It frustrates the contractor, raises the cost to the client, and makes the engineer look foolish.
While engineers don't usually have enough contact with contractors to appreciate the differences in building practices, we can see and readily compare a variety of engineers and their structural ideas. The odd-ball specs stand out like a sore thumb.
Most carpenters aren't great. By definition most are rather average and the pure idiots are over represented.
For those of us in an engineering position, most have spent 4 or more years in school (I spent 2 years part time and 5 years full time...so far) learning the engineering reasoning behind why things are done a certain way.
Ok. I have a graduate degree that taught us to manage our service providers, which sometimes means telling an engineer to quit spec'ing oddball materials or to break down long beams into multiple simple spans. It doesn't mean the engineer isn't coming up with a solution, it's just not automatically the correct solution for the situation.
When an engineer "doesn't like it", it's for a reason. Either something is sloppy or inadequate or both (or you pissed him off by insulting the Sci-Fi channel or his favorite brand of computer, so he's now going to make your life miserable).
We all take pride in providing the builder (you) and the end user with a structurally sound end-product and that's why we piss & moan when someone in the field cuts a corner.
What drives builders crazy is coming up with a solution to the problem that complicates our lives for no reason other than lack of knowledge of how residential builders operate.
My biggest grip has to do with gross over-engineering by some. We don't need the engineered beams to be the last part of the building standing.
I've heard engineers laugh about overbuilding an element, then two breaths later suggest something else that will, "make it a little stronger." That just drives costs up.
Just keep in mind that E&O insurance isn't going to pay out if the design wasn't built to the engineer's spec.
That's exactly why contractors sometimes bitchh and moan so much up front so the specs can be changed to something that makes more sense.
Hopefully it doesn't sound like I'm down on all engineers for simply being engineers. I have engineer friends, a few relatives and even worked for a civil/mine engineering consulting firm with about 50 of 'em. :-)
Edited 11/19/2006 2:32 am ET by IdahoDon
You can't begrudge an engineer for designing what he believes to be the most sound design for a structure. Cost isn't his issue, soundness is. And when there are options, one less expensive or burdensome, a reasonable engineer will discuss it. If it remains sound, though not the engineer's "perfect" concept, why would he hump the builder just for fun? If that's the engineer's attitude, then you have the wrong engineer.
It's natural for an engineer to want to design the best structure he can. Don't blame him for doing his job, and doing it well, even though it may be inconsistent with what a builder wants to build. But that's why we have the ability to discuss things and reasonable people should be able to reach a consensus that makes sense and is viable for all involved.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
What I like best about the engineer that I use most is that he will present me with two or three different solutions for a strutural problem and let me choose whih is most appropriate depending on cost, time required to aquire materials, and labour force and skills available to the job at hand
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
sounds like you have the right relationship with a good engineer. good communication and teamwork and everybody goes home happy, paid and confident that they've done a good day's work.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
That is exactly the correct role of any good engineer. Give you a couple of alternate solutions to the problem, and you can see which one is the better fit for your needs.
What I like best about the engineer that I use most is that he will present me with two or three different solutions for a strutural problem and let me choose whih is most appropriate depending on cost, time required to aquire materials, and labour force and skills available to the job at hand
That's a great idea. I'm going to suggest that to our architect, who is the contact person for the engineer on our current job.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I've set more than a few steel beams in residential construction myself. Each one was installed to the architect's or engineer's instructions, to the letter. Maybe 1/3 of them at best were bearing on steel columns, the rest on wood.View Image
I'd like to hear your reassoning too. I've had steel over wood speced before.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
In all of my residential work, I've never speced out steel beams supported by wood posts. I've never seen it done in these parts on anyone else's projects either. None of the contractors bidding any of my projects has ever asked to use wood posts instead to support steel beams as a means of saving money. In all of my site visits, no one has ever questioned why not wood posts instead of steel. My structural engineer has never suggested to me that wood posts could be used to support steel beams in any of our projects. I prefer to use wood on wood (standard lumber , LVLs, PSLs), but sometimes be it by code or be it because of loading, a steel beam needs to be used. And I'll always spec out steel posts for steel beams.
As I've skimmed over the other responses to my comment/question I gather it's a fairly common practice elsewhere, however not here.
I guess that if the calculations are done to check the loading on the posts by the numbers and a proper connection is designed it'll work. But if you've ordered the steel beam sized in the drawings why you order the steel posts that would be speced?
Once again, in all of my years, with all of my site visits where I do learn alot from the trades in the field, and I respect them for their input, I've never seen steel beams permanently supported by wood posts.
"None of the contractors bidding any of my projects has ever asked to use wood posts instead to support steel beams as a means of saving money."I don't recall that any Breaktimers ever mentioned saving money as a reason. To a man, we each said we were installing according to engineered plans as drawn by architects and speced by engineeers.but maybe I missed somebody's note to that effect...Anyway, I think wwe can agree that the supposed GC from this thread was a hack unworthy of working near most of us. But your broad condemnation of anybody who places steel over wood seemed over the top. I thought that I may have missed some theory of why it should be steel over steel at all times.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I have set many a beam with an end dieing into an exterior wall on wood supports. More often then not it seems to happen in garages that are designed for a clear span.
In all of my residential work, I've never speced out steel beams supported by wood posts
I operated in the first two decades of my trade thinking that we needed steel under steel. I thought it was code and perhaps it was.
Now, I've seen wood pass inspection under steel so I have a different reality. This falls under "things that have changed since I've joined the trades".
blue
I hope he's not bearing the steel beam on wood posts! That would be a give away he doesn't know what he's doing.
This reads more like a give away tht Joe Archy doesn't know what he's talking about.......
Joe H
AGREE!!
I'll just assume you and I don't work in the same part of the country or continent.
Since you thought enough to post this in a public forum, I suspect you already know what to do.
Do what's right... check the permit, turn him in, whatever it takes. Protect your reputation, the homeowners lives and property, and ease your conscience. Oh, and yes, you will definitely get included in the lawsuit if something happens.
This forum is devoted to "fine" homebuilding, not "I did it cause I got paid" homebuilding. If you know something's questionable and it's not just cosmetic, then take action. Walking away counting your money is not action.
BTW, Anyone worried about ratting out someone on a matter of safety has no ethics and is already a rat.
After watching a friend's house be condemned by officials due to an unscrupulous remodeler undersizing beams and compromising the whole house, I have no tolerance for this kind of stuff. In that case, the homeowners called every reference before signing with the guy... the references knew the guy was a hack, but lied to get their own jobs done first. At the inevitable trial it was found that the guy'd been doing the same crap jobs for 20+ years without prosecution since people wouldn't step up. Nice.
If this guy is truly a dangerous hack, run him out of town on a rail and open up more opportunities for the professionals.
If you were working as a bootlegger, i.e. off the books, you should have known that it was a questionable operation; I think that you have to protect your own azz at this time. Where I live the GC should have a permit and engineers drawings. ................................................. "If all else fails, read the directions"
Edited 11/17/2006 11:06 am ET by Shacko
My opinion is that you would NOT be liable on down the road. However, if a lawsuit ever comes of it, the lawyers will surely sue everyone involved--including you--and throw out the ones they determine are not culpable. The fact that you are discussing it on this forum means that the lawyers can and will subpoena this discussion to help determine that you had reservations in the first place. That may be enough to make you culpable. Remember it's not what a few nincompoops on a website think, it's what the judge thinks.
I'd walk.
"Kinky for Gov. of Texas"
If I were in your shoes, I'd be talking to my lawyer. Just for peace of mind and future reference if nothing else.
As Tim Holt told Walter Huston in The Treasure of Sierra Madre, "the worst ain't so bad when it finally happens."
A new scam deal im running into is the homeowner gets un liscenced guys get the work done but things are wrong, Fire them or they run off then hire lic contractor to fix, They can go to the contractors board, So you assume liabilty, You will maybe be cleared but you will have to defend yourself and how ya gonna explain you were working without a permit See they cant go to the contractors board against a un lic contractor so for a few hours pay your setting yourself up, OK im parinod
This is the point I stated in another discussion. Guys are willing to lie, cheat, and steal to make a buck. These guys, and including the ones who say take your money and run, should be put in the shoes of HO's who have to deal with guys like this.
We'll see if there attitudes the same. What happen to the words like, honesty, integerity, and just plain do it right.
Should have checked him out even for one day jobs. I have a list, that I keep up to date with gc who are lic. and only do work for them. If tour not on the list, the answer is no before the phone stops ringing.
Nailerman
If you can't do it right, then learn and do it better.
I can't argue with the fact that even I can't believe some of the stuff that does get designed, drawn, and stamped by licensed architects. However, architectural licenses are not bought. Required years of working under a licensed architect's supervision and grueling test requirements don't necessarily make a good architect. I know that what has helped me is my site visits where I can see first hand and have very important feedback from the trades in the field. I also relay this to my structural engineer who has experience in residential and nonresidential work. Your negative experience with architects may be from those who don't go out into the field and hold themselves above the trades. I cannot excuse their arrogance or laziness. I hope you don't hold a stereotype against all architects.
Do your architects do complete working sets of drawings for you or just the "pretty pictures" version?
Joe,Your profile is blank. What region do you practice in? I am curious about the regional "No steel beams bearing on wood supports" preference. Thanks.I am fascinated by many regional differences in construction practices, and their origins.Bill
I think most everyone has a valid point of view. The best thing I think is to not do the job if anything is making you uncomfotable. that little voice should be listened to. Second, if you go ahead, find out if the beam has been speced by and engineer (as mentioned before). If not, ask a building inspector the following:" I am on a job as a sub and feel uncertain about the sizing of a beam I am being asked to install. the beam size is XXXX and the span is XXXX. the posting is a tripple XXXXX. should I worry or just go ahead and do the work . " Most inspectors would rather you confide in them and ask them for guidance than avoid them. You don't even have to state the job, the town, or the GC. Just get the info. Finally if that fails ask same question to any engineers you might know.
Or you could give a false name and address and do the work and ask to get paid cash. no trail. good luck
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini